01-03 - September 1, 2, 3

    Table of contents
    No headers

    Seasons change: flowing from story to awakening and on and on:


     doug Sosa: It was darker this mornig, season and fog. Made being awake for SL slightly harder. I wonder what waking up and going in to the 9 sec have in common?

    Riddle Sideways: is that 2 separate questions:)

    Riddle Sideways: waking up has several meanings

    doug Sosa: i think it is one.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and several stages.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire sips her coffee.

    doug Sosa: well, i meant it without metaphor.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: woosh..I can't think that waking up means anyting at all without metaphor?

    doug Sosa: the stages get intersting, how like the transition into and out of the 9 sec.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: thinks aobut transition and three breaths...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: can you feel a moment of transition?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it's so very fast, that 9 seconds.
    doug Sosa: isn't just going from sleep to awake fairy non-metaphorical?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks...I guess I think of it as story altogether.
    doug Sosa: I try to slow it down and catch the process.
    doug Sosa: the experience.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: when you think about sleep/dream...that's story...and wake...is story...I guess there are brain states
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: that are not metaphor.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but isn't the rest just stories?
    Riddle Sideways: stories we tell ourselves
    doug Sosa: well, brain states is a story. i am thinking of the raw experience of just coming awake. It isn't brain states because I experience it.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks about this...
    doug Sosa: and it isn't metaphoical because i am not seeing it as like something else.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but isn't that experience a story you tell yourself about what is going on? I mean...very little actually occurs to experience.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: once we name it, put a history on it..it becomes a story?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: sorry..I'm thinking alot about story right now.
    Riddle Sideways: Doug, are you talking about sleep not really connected to input senses, then whoosh a flood of inputs as morning breaks
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ah.
    doug Sosa: yes. though at times it is more a trickle :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: laughs..yeah...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: sips coffee and considers that.
    Riddle Sideways: often in a daydream or concentration when the 15 minute gong goes off and take a 9-sec breath ?
    doug Sosa: there is a way in which the story perspective transcends everything, cause the experience gets organized by us. i like that perspective but don't want to totalize it.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it's finding the place where there isn't story that's the trick.
    doug Sosa: our vocab here seems not up to the task.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nodsnods to that.
    Riddle Sideways: as usual
    doug Sosa: so is there a transition between normal and 9sec that we can explore?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire droops. I keep finding more "normal" under each thing I drop.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: more "story"
    Riddle Sideways: layers of the onion?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods, slowly. I think so.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Not the magical all nothing.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: just...more little somethings.
    Riddle Sideways: ha, it isturtles allthe way down

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: laughs at the image.

    Revisting the retreat and widening the circle:

    Riddle Sideways: again Corvi, I am sorry I did not get to meet you in RL

    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles..me too.

    Riddle Sideways: please report what I missed atthe retreat

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hmm.

    Riddle Sideways: no preasure...

    Riddle Sideways: but report all... NOW

    Riddle Sideways: :)

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: laughs.I thought all morning what to say..and I still don't know!

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: The place is beautiful.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it was great to meet each person and they were exactly as I imagined, but more themselves.

    doug Sosa: On a ridge in redwood trees.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: we sat quietly alot, and then had very long PaB sessions.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: many of us grew fond of the trees.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Redwood forests are very quiet, as someone pointed out to me.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I didn't realize until that moment that I missed the cicadas.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: of my own forests.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Blue Jays there are as big as crows here.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Crows are huge.

    doug Sosa: bigness wins when the struggle is for human garbage.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: laughs. nods.

    Riddle Sideways: and yet....

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: the place was good for what we were doing.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Someone once told me that he practiced compassion by thinking about loving a specific person..then spreading that feeling.

    doug Sosa: good food right there, no distractions (excpt heat last two days).

    Riddle Sideways: yes, Redwoods MAKE you contemplative

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and that place was like that, too.

    doug Sosa: More about speakig to one..

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: smiles..yeah..there were many comments about the slow life of the redwood.

    doug Sosa: "spreeading that feeling? Ah, beyond that person?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods...yes..taking the example of loving someone you find easy to love.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and then imagining it a little wider.
    Riddle Sideways: how to widen that
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods..it's not simple.
    Riddle Sideways: taking your inner glow and shining it on others
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: smiles..yeah...exactly.
    Riddle Sideways: bringing Redwood experiences back to a city
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: yes yes!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: that's one thing I was thinking about..
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: taking the lightness, playfulness, contemplativeness and love of a retreat
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: to the rest of my life.
    Riddle Sideways: every day rush rush people won't listen to you slowly tell of Redwoods
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: laughs
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: no
    Riddle Sideways: but they will hear your smile

    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.

    Expansive presence: Genesis talks retreat


    Mickorod Renard: Gen,,how was the retreat?
    Mickorod Renard: u enjoy?
    genesis Zhangsun: really wonderful, oh yes I enjoyed it quite a bit
    Mickorod Renard: fantastic
    Mickorod Renard: how many have you been on now?
    genesis Zhangsun: well I suppose this is the first official retreat, we had a meeting in Princeton last year but it was only a couple of days
    Mickorod Renard: ok great
    Mickorod Renard: and was it a shock to see people in the flesh?
    Mickorod Renard: like avi's in the flesh
    genesis Zhangsun: surprisingly not surprising :)
    Mickorod Renard: nice
    genesis Zhangsun: somehow the av and the person seem to blend together quite seamlessly
    genesis Zhangsun: at least for me
    Mickorod Renard: I have heard that said before
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I've been so curious as to what kind of exercises were explored, and haven't heard much about them :)
    Mickorod Renard: me too
    arabella Ella: me too
    genesis Zhangsun: I think this week guardians who attended the retreat will be sharing their experiences during their sessions
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    genesis Zhangsun: many will also be writing short reports
    genesis Zhangsun: including myself
    Mickorod Renard: stragely we asked Stim yesterday but he seemed quiet
    arabella Ella: were you a large group gen?
    arabella Ella: and did it all live up to your expectations?
    arabella Ella: or surpass them?
    genesis Zhangsun: the group was 12 in total including me, Pema, and Stim
    Mickorod Renard: thats a nice number
    arabella Ella: fantastic
    genesis Zhangsun: I was careful in a way not to have too many expetactions as we often know they can be distracting :)
    arabella Ella nods
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    genesis Zhangsun: so it neither met them nor surpassed them but I know what you mean by what you are asking
    genesis Zhangsun: I was really going with the flow, I guess that is something easier to do in a retreat context
    arabella Ella: yes of course
    genesis Zhangsun: letting one thing flow into the next
    Mickorod Renard: do you think it may be too formal?
    arabella Ella: was Storm there too?
    genesis Zhangsun: yes he was there too
    arabella Ella: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: what a presence Storm has
    arabella Ella: no doubt
    genesis Zhangsun: perhaps that is something I would say I wasn't entirely prepared for
    genesis Zhangsun: he seemed larger than life :)
    arabella Ella: he has quite a presence here too
    Mickorod Renard: wow
    arabella Ella: and you dont only mean physical do you?
    Mickorod Renard: I guess he is still in homymoon mode to some extent too
    Mickorod Renard: honeymoon*
    genesis Zhangsun: oh yes he was in a fantastic mood, completely in love
    Mickorod Renard: wow
    genesis Zhangsun: but I would have to say I guess it was interesting to note how expansive the presence of all of the guardians felt in RL
    genesis Zhangsun: a very special group of people
    arabella Ella: yes
    genesis Zhangsun: both those who were able to make it and those who could not
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    arabella Ella: did you discuss the possibility of a next retreat?
    genesis Zhangsun: a special community in general


    Seeing without seeing


    delene Dawner: I saw an article I wanted to share - reminded me of wu wei.
    Adelene Dawner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindsight
    Eliza Madrigal looks...
    Pema Pera: yes, blindsight is a fascinating phenomenon
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Pema Pera: how does it remind you of wu-wei?
    Adelene Dawner: Well, from the description (and that's not the only place I saw it described, but I lost the other article in a FF crash) it sounds like using blindsight is an exercise in wu wei - since you don't *know* what you're seeeing, consciously, and you have to trust... 'instinct' isn't accurate there, really, but something other than conscious thought.
    Eliza Madrigal: AHhhh, neat idea!
    Pema Pera: yes, that is interesting
    Eliza Madrigal: like something activated from seemingly 'nowhere'?
    Pema Pera: we do know more than we know we know :)
    Eliza Madrigal: or knowhere..hehe
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pema Pera: now do we have the knowherewithall to talk about it . . . .
    Eliza Madrigal: :) this seems distinctive... you said before that talking about experiences in excercizes was a new approach...can see that
    Eliza Madrigal: talking out of that blindspot... like when you think you don't understand something at all, then hear yourself explain it
    Eliza Madrigal: an odd and wonderful thing
    Pema Pera: yes, that is a key part of research too
    Pema Pera: joint research, two or more individuals groping in the dark, sharing what they think they've seen so far
    Pema Pera: and then trying to form hypotheses, no matter how flaky or confused at first
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, I like that... not discouting what seems off-the-wall
    Eliza Madrigal: *discounting
    Pema Pera: but to really give the glimmers of possible new insight a chance, everybody in the group has to be receptive
    Pema Pera: ready to wait, open up, not waltz over new ideas
    Eliza Madrigal: Some may seem non-receptive but not be and visa versa? different activation times?
    Pema Pera: yes, and we all learn together
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Pema Pera: it's a rather fine balance
    Pema Pera: if everybody is too careful, it can become stifling and sleepy, lacking freshness
    Pema Pera: but if too many people jump up with new input too often, new tentative ideas get lost in the fray
    Pema Pera: wu-wei is the perfect balance between the two

    Improvising beyond concepts:

    Pema Pera: yes, we tend to have an idea of what wu-wei is, and that idea helps us to find more of it
    Pema Pera: and that then helps us to refine our idea in turn
    Pema Pera: but then we stick to that new idea
    Pema Pera: and we have to learn to let that go in order to see/feel/experience more exquisitely what wu-wei can be . . . .
    Eliza Madrigal: :) MM, yes, the idea of eating mindfully certainly is a good thing in itself... not about getting rid of that
    Eliza Madrigal: and doing something 'else' that is 'better'?
    Pema Pera: each situation asks for a unique response, unique to that situation . . . .
    Pema Pera: and the more we learn to see, the more we intuitively respond in the proper way
    Pema Pera: improvising on the spot
    Eliza Madrigal: immediacy
    Pema Pera: yes, no hesitation
    Eliza Madrigal: Well really learning to live that way yes, would be radical :)
    Pema Pera: wu-wei showed itself in two quite different ways, during the retreat: one is that by and large we all gaave each other room to talk;
    Pema Pera: another was that whenever someone used that room to convey something really delicate, often that person felt a bit shy, unsure,
    Pema Pera: and before long someone would then add a quietly encouraging response
    Pema Pera: typically quite tender
    Pema Pera: that was really marvelous to see and experience
    Eliza Madrigal smiles yes it sounds that way
    Pema Pera: and of course, we often do that here in SL too
    Adelene Dawner: :)
    Pema Pera: that's probably how we learned to do that as a group
    Eliza Madrigal: that's an aspect of 'permission' you mentioned coming up there
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm surprised a little, that you were surprised Pema... and so very glad it was that way for you all
    Pema Pera: I was surprised at how well it worked, and how constantly
    Pema Pera: it's one thing to see that happen between two old friends . . . or perhaps even three or four when they *really* know each other -- but twelve? That was the surprise
    Eliza Madrigal nods, yes makes sense

    Two aspects...

    Pema Pera: So the two aspects here: giving room and responding, are complementary
    Pema Pera: knowing when to pause, and knowing when to step in, and how
    Pema Pera: The first part, no doubt, we have learned to do better with the 9-sec break, and the 90-second pauses here.
    Pema Pera: do you have a suggestion as to how we have been learning the second part here, the responding?
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm sure that I'm not the best person to suggest when to step in... constantly doubt myself as to whether I'm giving someone too much space/not enough
    Eliza Madrigal: is certainly a skill :)
    Eliza Madrigal: But talking about that is good!
    Eliza Madrigal: Saying it openly... having permission, knowing there is benefit of the doubt, etc
    Eliza Madrigal: We learn to trust each others' basic intentions to sharing
    Eliza Madrigal: so even when clumsy, it is in love, in a way
    Pema Pera: yes


    Tai Chi and PaB

    (see chat log for a more detailed treatment of this topic)


    Pila Mulligan: Doug, I don't do the 9 sec practice the usual PaB way
    doug Sosa: and.. :) How?
    Pila Mulligan: i had a similar pre-existing practice that I now see in relation to PaB
    stevenaia Michinaga: back
    Pila Mulligan: you may appreciate it in relation to tai chi
    Pila Mulligan: wb Steve
    doug Sosa: please..
    Pila Mulligan: there are some very arcane old Chinese yoga, as you probably know
    Pila Mulligan: this one involves influences on the body -- particularly when an influence is felt in the calf
    doug Sosa: continue..:)
    Pila Mulligan: the idea is that upon feeling that influence, to tarry in order not to lose balance
    Pila Mulligan: I sense the need to do so several times a day, it usually results in 5-10 seconds of tarrying each time
    Pila Mulligan: oops
    doug Sosa: calf?
    Pila Mulligan: lower leg
    doug Sosa: ok, any piece of bodily tension takes you into some 9 sec like equivalent?
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Paradise
    Pila Mulligan: hi Paradise
    doug Sosa: ah paradise :)
    Pila Mulligan: no, just at the calf :)
    doug Sosa: so pila make the connection for me between the calf noticing an PaB.
    Pila Mulligan: well, I had been doing the calf-noticing/tarry for at least 20 years before finding PaB -- and saw some similarity in the pause
    Pila Mulligan: the idea for me is yogic balance
    Pila Mulligan: physical more than mental
    Pila Mulligan: and both seem to do that

    (Hana's First Scribe) :)

    Tag page (Edit tags)
    • No tags
    You must login to post a comment.
    Powered by MindTouch Core