07-09 Words, Silence and Truth

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         Scribe: Vendy Walpole

    The search for the truth has always attracted me. I have been wondering if there is  ultimate truth, what it can be and are there different levels and channels towards the truth. As a main tool for the communication and presentation of the truth we have the words, but how much are they powerful and able to reflect the truth, to be inspirational or to make harm and hurt? How much one's personal perception has influence on it? I believe that truth can be found maybe more in silence and in communications without words.

    In the conversations I have followed, curled up with my diary in the corner of "wagon" of PaB "train", during the three january days the similar search and questions have been explored by the group of travellers composed of people from distanced meridians. Must underline here that what I have seen and heard  as meaning in these words is my view and some may not agree. It was not easy do decide where to make cut and the scribe task has reminded me how much one more line or word can change the meaning and also, about the potential of multiple meanings of the words and statements. What I am sure without doubts is that my Second Life avatar Miss Mouse will run for the wonderful books mentioned in the conversations.

    Train station: "Words about words
    The conversation about the  book "Watching the English" was perfect introduction of the exploration - meaning of words
    Geoff Baily: i was given a book called 'watching the English" for Christmas
    Geoff Baily: by Kate Fox an anthropologist
    Storm Nordwind: Ah yes... a worthwhile read
    Eden Haiku: One of your French friends's gift, I suppose ;-)
    Geoff Baily: not finished it yet
    Geoff Baily: not os actually, an English friend Eden
    Storm Nordwind: My ex used it to try and understand me. AFter ten years, though, it didn't work!
    Eden Haiku: Sounds interesting, I will take a note
    Eden Haiku: Aren't Scottish Storm? You must not fit into the Englishmen category!
    Geoff Baily: I find many of the things she says about the English apply to the French
    Geoff Baily: Heresy!!
    Eden Haiku: Ah ah!
    Storm Nordwind: No I am not Scottish. I was simply an Englishman exiled in Scotland for 6 years!
    Eden Haiku: Ah, ah, I was wondering why I could understand your accent...
    Storm Nordwind chuckles

    Storm Nordwind: Accents and dialects are strange. It is as though we need words to convey meaning, yet so often the words get in the way of the meaning!
    Geoff Baily: but they also give context
    Orl Auer: Words lead to magic : when you have the perfect formula (good keywords) on Google, doors open !
    Eden Haiku: ;-)
    Storm Nordwind smiles
    Orl Auer: as in SL when searching !
    Geoff Baily: one of my teachers (40 years ago) could tell anyone's home to within 5 miles in the UK by their voice
    Storm Nordwind: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
    Orl Auer: Yes, it is Arthir C. Clarke
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Eden Haiku: Hear something on the radio yesterday about the last sentence of a press release. About the death oy a young singer called Lhasa de Sela.
    Eden Haiku: It said: After Lhasa's death, it snowed for 40 hours on Montreal.
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh
    Eden Haiku: Words can convey magic and empathy.
    Geoff Baily: true
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Orl Auer: yes, you are right

    Storm Nordwind: Snow softens all sound / Feathers falling on a grave / A teardrop freezes
    Geoff Baily: empathy
    Eden Haiku: Beautiful Storm!
    Geoff Baily: ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: striking, Storm
    Storm Nordwind smiles

    Orl Auer: Close to the colonnades, the peachtree has flowered. And the sky is so blue that it fades In the Tyrrhenian Sea and who gleams.
    Orl Auer: it is the beginning of one of my poem
    Eden Haiku: Words. All made up of a few sounds, a few letters. In India they call it the MatrikaShakti: the mother of language.
    Storm Nordwind: Words, like all tools, can convey beauty, peace, friendship, love, information... and be the vehicle for harm, ignorance, and assumption. When we open our mouths, we are partaking of something very powerful.
    Eden Haiku: Nice poem Orl!
    Orl Auer: only the beginning, Eden
    Eliza Madrigal: yes thanks for sharing that part, Orl :)
    Orl Auer: you are all peaceful and delightful
    Orl Auer: i rest in peace with joy
    Eden Haiku: Yes, true. Could be the sword of Manjushri cutting through ignorance as well as ignorance itself. Like when one of the bad gauys in ' Avatar' says 'Wake up'
    Eliza Madrigal: powerful when we let our fingers play across the keyboards, too...
    Geoff Baily: but its so easy to use words casually. Lovely start to the poem Orl
    Eden Haiku: yeah...typoeing...
    Storm Nordwind chuckles
    Orl Auer: now we have translators in SL, it breaks the barrels between nations
    Eden Haiku: Thai Ping.
    Storm Nordwind: :)
    Geoff Baily: barriers?, Orl or is it the demon drink that does it??
    Orl Auer: Babel, lol

    Is it possible to know anything without words?

    Storm Nordwind: We can use words to free us from words
    Eden Haiku: You mean as a path to freedom?
    Storm Nordwind: Like a tantra, Eden
    Storm Nordwind: I had a debate with a teacher... is it possible to know anything without words? :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Words can be like certain people... in a room seeming to take up no space in fact give it somehow...
    Eden Haiku: Allowing things to be born you mean Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe... words freeing from words seemed to bring this to mind...

    Intuitive and logic perception and how they relate

    Eliza Madrigal: What did the teacher think, Storm?
    Orl Auer: words are pointers, like a finger to the moion
    Storm Nordwind: The teacher thought no, Eliza, and I thought yes.
    Orl Auer: to the SElf
    Storm Nordwind: But she was trying to teach us all about madhyamika so it is was a complicated discussion!
    Eliza Madrigal: teaching doesn't work if only using words, perhaps... but hm, no words...
    Eden Haiku: Yes, that is so true!
    Orl Auer: thinking witout thinking (pensar sine pensar)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Storm Nordwind: It's like a right brained person trying to explain things to a left brained one. The right brained will always see the left brain point of view, but sadly the opposite is rarely the case!
    Orl Auer: right brain is about holistic and intuition and left brain logic
    Eliza Madrigal: so intuition can make room for logic to play
    Storm Nordwind: yes Orl, and being holistic, it can also embrace the left
    Orl Auer: yes, it fuels it
    Orl Auer: contemplation leads to action then
    Eden Haiku: Yes, sadly the opposite is rarely the case.This is clarifying things for me Storm ;-)

    Storm Nordwind chuckles
    Storm Nordwind: Long and hard experience Eden :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure Orl, the logical person might deny that though
    Eden Haiku: A fellow right brainer hey?
    Orl Auer: there is also fuzzy logic
    Storm Nordwind: Yes Orl. Sadly neglected and even ostracised

    Eliza Madrigal: when action (including words perhaps) arises from that wordless place, then 'one torch can dissipate the accumulated darkness of a thousand eons'

    Mickorod Renard: is there a strand to follow,,that I am unaware of? please forgive me for being a bit ignorant
    Eliza Madrigal: (tilopa)
    Eliza Madrigal: Even if its gone in a slurp, Eden. heheh
    Storm Nordwind: We're talking, mystically at times, about words (it seems)
    Mickorod Renard: ok thanks
    Eden Haiku: How compelling Eliza! Words arising from a wordless place, that is how how I would like to write.
    Storm Nordwind: Words as the expression of the wordless
    Eliza Madrigal: it seems to me you do, Eden :)

    Words as inspiration and need
    Eden Haiku: I have been rewriting the opening chapter of my new novel for months now. Did not struch the right note yet...
    Orl Auer: -> i am reality
    Storm Nordwind: Then write all the others chapters Eden, and come back to it! ;)
    Eden Haiku: Haikus can catch glimpses maybe but novels are tricky...
    Mickorod Renard: thanks eliza
    Eden Haiku: ah ah...not a bad idea Storm!
    Orl Auer: poetry is very poqwerful : John of the Cross, a mystic spanish
    Eliza Madrigal always hopes that a book will come to her in a dream
    Geoff Baily: perhaps the words will come after your visit to India Eden!!
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes inspiration
    Orl Auer: yes !
    Storm Nordwind hopes that a book will come to him in the post before he has to claim a refund and doesn't have to just dream about it!
    Eliza Madrigal: hahaha
    Geoff Baily: ;)
    Eden Haiku: My feeling is that the book already exists, and my only humble task is to synthonize it.

    In how many of us a novel awaits to appear on daylight?

    Mickorod Renard: I wrote a novel about a year ago and have left it in an unfinnished condition
    Eliza Madrigal: goodness Mick... just needs cleaning?
    Mickorod Renard: I have lost the momentum
    Orl Auer: to tune it ?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes maybe we can know without words, but can we convey?
    Geoff Baily: you are giving birth to it Eden?
    Eden Haiku: Yes, tuning in. I did that for most of my books. Published many of them. But this one, this one...I want it to be great!
    Storm Nordwind: Mick... are you keeping it from us? Get thee to thy keyboard!
    Eliza Madrigal: When I was a child I hated to hear 'be patient' but it is seeming like a very powerful word these days!
    Eden Haiku: And yes, Geoff, India is a scared ground of inspiration for me.
    Mickorod Renard: he he , I thought it was great,,the first few times I read over it,,now i have lost my feeling that its any good
    Geoff Baily: sacred!
    Storm Nordwind chuckles
    Orl Auer: you have to be abandoned when you write, i think

    Mickorod Renard: thats a nice way of putting it Orl
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm...the sacred ground the book will be made of...
    Eden Haiku: Very revealing typo of mine. India is also a scared ground indeed, as well as sacred. ;-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)))
    Geoff Baily: hmmm
    Eliza Madrigal: fearful and wonderful perhaps
    Orl Auer: it is indicible Eliza ?
    Storm Nordwind: Like a blessed Mother who may both chide and embrace
    Eliza Madrigal: MMM
    Eliza Madrigal looks up indicible...
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Orl Auer: like the tao ?
    Geoff Baily: the lake one can drink from or drown in
    Eden Haiku: Yes, reading Shantaram recently was a great experience, The writer makes me see things I have bee unabled to se by myself in India,

    even when living there for almost a two years stretch.
    Eden Haiku: What is your novel about Mick?
    Eliza Madrigal: ahhh incommunicable....

    Train station: "Signal and noise"

    About the amount of thruth in media

    arabella Ella: i am watching a very good italian documentary about how islam and hindu merge together in india
    Agatha Macbeth: They do?
    Mickorod Renard: but do they merge?
    Wol Euler: I think that would be news to those on the border with Pakistan
    Mickorod Renard: I thought there was much friction
    Agatha Macbeth: Do they not usually try to kill each other most of the time?
    arabella Ella: well it is going back to the 15th century and describing the integration in many famous indian monuments including the taj mahal
    Wol Euler: "well, yeah, but apart from *that* ..."
    Agatha Macbeth: Mmmm
    arabella Ella: and don't forget

    Selective news

    arabella Ella: we get very selective news here in the west
    arabella Ella: there are more than religious conflicts in those areas
    Mickorod Renard: do they have an islamic kama sutra?
    arabella Ella: more variables i mean
    arabella Ella: good question Mick
    arabella Ella: i dont have an answer
    Wol Euler: yes mick: remain fully clothed, upright, and separated by at least 30cm at all times.
    Agatha Macbeth: We have no way of really knowing tho Ara
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Mickorod Renard: or was that the bit about 'more variables'
    arabella Ella: we do Agatha
    Agatha Macbeth: How so?
    arabella Ella: through internet access to newspapers in english from that area
    Eliza Madrigal: :) I return to computer to read "Come back Eliza!" hehe
    Agatha Macbeth: But do we know that we get the facts?
    Eliza Madrigal: It worked

    Different newspapers point out different happenings

    arabella Ella: i am always amazed when i read some papers on emirates flights en route to or from dubai ... with so many different takes on what is happening
    Wol Euler: that's true, it is useful to be able to compare Al Jazeera with Haaretz in English, the truth is usually somewhere in between
    arabella Ella: it is up to us to judge if we wish or assess and to decide what is credible and what is not
    Agatha Macbeth: It is? :)
    arabella Ella: try having a look at Gulf news for example
    Mickorod Renard: I think there is much seduction in the mystery..rather than the blatent
    arabella Ella: or bangkok times
    arabella Ella: and many more
    arabella Ella: Al Jaz poached many of Beep's people
    Agatha Macbeth: Beep?
    Calvino Rabeni: I think, liiturature may be a better source than "news" for this purpose
    arabella Ella: literature too
    Mickorod Renard: I wonder sometimes how relevent anything is,,especially when we cannot ven decide whether we even exist

    arabella Ella: i love buying books from airports where you can get publishers (books) which are not mainstream in europe

    Different sources - different truths

    Agatha Macbeth: As always folks, it all depends on who you listen to
    arabella Ella: best to listen to as many sides as you possibly can
    Agatha Macbeth: Indeed :)
    arabella Ella: i was in india recently
    arabella Ella: and they dont talk against islam
    arabella Ella: but against their neighbouring country
    Mickorod Renard: but sometimes one attaches more truth to those who look important..or rich
    arabella Ella: because there are quite a few muslims in india who are indians
    Agatha Macbeth: 'Neighbouring country' being Pakistan?
    arabella Ella: yes Agatha
    arabella Ella: for many obvious reasons
    Mickorod Renard: for example,,would we take the word of Obama..or the word of the Iranian chap as the truth?
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes! :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Iranian chap?
    Mickorod Renard: I dont know his name
    arabella Ella: i dont think you can take 'all' they say and judge that Mick
    arabella Ella: you take concepts or policies or positions
    Agatha Macbeth: Neither do I Mick ;-)
    Mickorod Renard: you believe who you are conditioned to believe
    Eliza Madrigal: Amadinijad?
    arabella Ella: but today with internet we can explore so much more
    Agatha Macbeth: Could be
    Wol Euler: we have the chance and the chioce to become aware of our conditioning though.
    arabella Ella nods to Wol
    Mickorod Renard: indigestion Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,we can read the paper instead of trusting the tv
    arabella Ella: or search all sorts of international papers on the web Mick
    arabella Ella: get diverse slants
    arabella Ella: takes
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, economic downturns actually reduce international news so have to be persistent...
    arabella Ella: yes
    Mickorod Renard: I think the ones in power rely on the masses not to get that involved in the truths
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure
    Agatha Macbeth: :)
    arabella Ella: well there are many institutions that try to control our thinking ... but whether they do or not is up to us as mature thinking beings
    Eliza Madrigal: One might have to make a full time job in order to be actually 'fully informed'...
    arabella Ella: :)
    Lia Rikugun: yes...
    Agatha Macbeth: nods to Eliza
    arabella Ella: would be nice ... but time seems to be such a precious resource nowadays
    Mickorod Renard: and how much voice do those who truly suffer have?

    www. - Better possibilty to search for the truth or to get lost in too many information

    arabella Ella: the web has given us such a huge platform to express our concerns ...
    Liza Deischer: Slowly I get less interested in news
    Liza Deischer: especially the political one
    arabella Ella: depends which news Liza
    arabella Ella: local political news is often boring
    Mickorod Renard: I think most of us here are lucky in being in countries where a balance is maintained,,,loosly fair
    Liza Deischer: it is not the boring part
    Bertram Jacobus: (lia told me what you are talkin about - ty again here) :-)
    arabella Ella: which is the boring part then for you?
    arabella Ella: :)
    Lia Rikugun: :) to bertram
    Liza Deischer: well, I guess it is about trust and what you can do
    Mickorod Renard: but many who live in area's where they cannot access computors are likely to be in an unfair area
    arabella Ella: could you say more Liza?
    Eliza Madrigal nods to Ara and Liza... yes there is potential to be focused and rather informed on things one decides to have a voice about, etc
    Liza Deischer: The more I get closer to myself

    Should we join "Information boycott"?

    Calvino Rabeni: #TMI
    Liza Deischer: it seems that that means that I get further off from all the political arguments
    Bertram Jacobus: tmi ? cal ? what is that, please ? :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: You may find yourself to be more or less already fully formed
    Calvino Rabeni: TMI is an acronym for Too Much Information
    Liza Deischer: there is so many you can read on just one topic
    Mickorod Renard: there is much unfairness that goes on ,,even in my local area,,i feel bad that I am so inactive about it
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, perhaps less mired?
    Calvino Rabeni: You may want to join the information boycott
    Agatha Macbeth: Or Geoff Boycott
    Lia Rikugun: what is that?
    Eliza Madrigal: ?
    Mickorod Renard: how does that work cal?
    arabella Ella: but Calvino for me in life ... part of life is the learning curve ... and can you have learning with no information?
    Agatha Macbeth: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Bertram Jacobus: mick ... i think ... one can never do "enough" ... so it's not always correct to feel bad about that ...
    Calvino Rabeni: It is a matter of balance
    Mickorod Renard: experience?
    Calvino Rabeni: Most are flooded now with information
    Liza Deischer: Well, there is something in between no information and a lot of it
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes

    It is possible to distinguish between "signal" and "noise" and to filter the information which interests us?

    Wol Euler points to the distinction between "signal" and "noise"
    Liza Deischer: but I think to me it is more: where are you focusing on?
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    arabella Ella nods to liza
    Eliza Madrigal: News can be an addiction... people can get wrapped up in every story...
    arabella Ella: i think balance is fine, one focuses of course ... but information boycott seems to be going too far
    Calvino Rabeni: Focusing is about who you are, not about the information
    Wol Euler: right.
    Mickorod Renard: its all very clever really,,too much information can be like disinformation,,then the information becomes useless
    Calvino Rabeni: Information sabbath then ? Occasional fast?
    arabella Ella: but let me give one example
    Liza Deischer: and about how you want to perceive information
    Calvino Rabeni: Just a little, to shake up the addiction
    Eliza Madrigal: agree
    arabella Ella: Storm gave us the link to a video in this session yesterday
    arabella Ella: and i watched it
    arabella Ella: but then it led to more and more links

    Calvino Rabeni: @ara :) ACCK, no more links please :)
    arabella Ella: but it does not always have to be an addiction, Calvino, because as Wol said,
    Mickorod Renard: so the proof of the cake is in the tasting?
    Eliza Madrigal nods to Ara.... yes! we can do things to not let that chain rule 'over' us... make active choices.
    Calvino Rabeni: You are not a machine, machines filter things
    arabella Ella: dont worry Calvino, no links from me
    Lia Rikugun: i think thats true calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: The world is also fully formed, not a noisy channel
    Mickorod Renard: well,,i am not so sure
    arabella Ella: but i was reading ... the trend for example is to move away from hard copy books ... towards e-books and consoles to read them on
    Eliza Madrigal followed a you tube chain link of mantras today... was quite nice actually :)
    arabella Ella: and just imagine how the next generation will perceive the printed word

    Mickorod Renard: one day I am sure I will see on the tv that we are in the end machines

    Does the quality of information get better?

    arabella Ella: @ Calvino ... done we as humans filter information through our perception?
    Agatha Macbeth: Is it catching Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: it might be
    Mickorod Renard: I am actually disapointed that we may be percieved by science as nothing but mechanical blubber
    Calvino Rabeni: Ara, no I dont think so
    Agatha Macbeth: oooh I'll move then :)
    Eliza Madrigal: we're science too, Mick
    Liza Deischer: And you can ask yourself if the information is getting better now we have so many of it
    arabella Ella: @ Liza ... there is good and there is bad of course
    Eliza Madrigal: you may be far enough away Agatha.. but they may help tame your yas
    Calvino Rabeni: Partly I meant, boycott "informationthe concept" as a metaphor for what you do and what your mind is
    Liza Deischer: true Ara, I don't deny that
    arabella Ella: you dont think we filter information Calvino ... if we dont filter info we could not even take a decision to cross a busy road with so much 'noise'
    Calvino Rabeni: I didn't mean so much, pull the plug on your computer
    arabella Ella: :)
    Eliza Madrigal nods... can't pull the plug on the new collective unconscious ;-)
    arabella Ella: if we pulled out our PC or laptop plugs then none of us would be here

    Is the truth just a personal view?

    Mickorod Renard: I have often wanteed someone just to tell me the truth,,about the second world war,,or why there is conflict in the middle east,,yet the truth seems to depend on who's side is telling it
    arabella Ella: and laptops have long life batteries too :)
    Lia Rikugun: so truth is personel?
    Liza Deischer: exactly Mick, that's the whole point
    arabella Ella: perhaps you need to explore the concept of truth Mick
    Mickorod Renard: exactly
    Lia Rikugun: hm tahts intersting
    Calvino Rabeni: From doug's point of view, little currency symbols are running up the wire, into my laptop and coming out the pixels on the screen
    arabella Ella: IMHO truth is different perspectives
    Mickorod Renard: well,,who's truth is it anyway,,the polititians, comerce?
    Mickorod Renard: is it our truth,,for ordinary people
    arabella Ella: everyone ... and no one

    Three sides of the story: yours, theirs and truth

    Lia Rikugun: is there a general truth?
    Eliza Madrigal: What a question :)
    Wol Euler: no (IMHO YMMV)
    Mickorod Renard: that would be told by an ordinary person,,and news isnt
    Wol Euler: many things are true, but The Singular Truth does not exist.
    arabella Ella nods to Wol
    Calvino Rabeni: About the "truth" of ordinary people - my mother read "This is Water" and said, do you think that's actually how people go around seeing others ?
    Wol Euler: the trouble with "what caused the war" is often that both explanations are true.
    Eliza Madrigal nods... and none of the explanations are true, too
    Calvino Rabeni: Is that how we think others perceive others?
    arabella Ella: but Wol, then niehter explanation it a complete one
    Wol Euler: but people want only one to be true, becuase they want "our side" to be in the right Mickorod Renard: I dont think we ever get to know the real truth,,its too ambarrasing
    Wol Euler: indeed, ara, that is why there is no Perfect Singular Truth
    Calvino Rabeni: Comparing is good, it might be less embarrasing the assumed
    Mickorod Renard: its about someone getting their pockets filled
    Eliza Madrigal must be going, thank you everyone!
    Calvino Rabeni: Or not
    Agatha Macbeth: 'There are three sides to every story: yours, theirs and the truth'
    Liza Deischer: what interest me more is why people are telling what they are telling
    Liza Deischer: what moves them?

    Is there a general angle to see the truth?

    Lia Rikugun: but arent we trying to loose a single perspective
    Calvino Rabeni: Can't know unless you actually ask and express
    Lia Rikugun: and see things from a general angle
    arabella Ella: the problem sometimes is that some 'truths' are only half truths
    Calvino Rabeni: Seeing things from a general angle went out, with Picasso
    Lia Rikugun: i dont understand
    arabella Ella: and with Thomas Nagel too Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Now we see things from many angles at once
    Mickorod Renard: its now abstract
    Wol Euler: and James Joyce, for that matter
    arabella Ella: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Not abstract, it is more intricate than before
    Liza Deischer: what is it you don't undestand Lia
    Mickorod Renard: its nearly time for Wok
    Agatha Macbeth: The return of Zon!
    Lia Rikugun: what picasso or nagel or joyce did

    The "View from Nowhere"

    arabella Ella: ok Nagel wrote a book called The View from Nowhere
    Agatha Macbeth: I take mine without sugar :)
    arabella Ella: where he argued that it is impossible to be objective
    Lia Rikugun: ok
    Zon Quar: nods
    arabella Ella: every view is from a subjective perspective
    Wol Euler: and Calvino and I have an appointment with Pema to talk about the wiki
    Calvino Rabeni: same same
    Zon Quar: if all is perceptions..what is objectivity ?
    Mickorod Renard: no answer
    arabella Ella: Nagel argues that there is no objectivity
    arabella Ella: it is not possible from a human thinking perspective
    Zon Quar: what is objectivity by definition ?

    Train station: "To hear the silence within sound"

    Even inside the crudest sound, there is deep silence...

    Calvino Rabeni: one night I think it was bolo and I were talking about listening deeply into sound
    Calvino Rabeni: and an experience of hearing the deep silence inside the sould
    Paradise Tennant: ok what is bolo ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Bolonath, a PAB guardian
    Calvino Rabeni: Or maybe I misremember - you can search it in the log keywords sound and silence
    Paradise Tennant: ok
    Calvino Rabeni: Even inside the crudest sound, there is deep silence
    Paradise Tennant: smiles .. sound has a resonance .. that dissipates into silence .. yes..
    Calvino Rabeni: Loud, you could meditate on the bus stop, doesn't matter, the background is there
    Paradise Tennant: yes often meditate in all kinds of places
    Calvino Rabeni: It doesn't dissipate into it, it coexists
    Paradise Tennant: standing in line .. sitting on a bus .. what ever
    Calvino Rabeni: But in one practice in a school I went to,we would use a bell
    Paradise Tennant: or a singing bowl ?
    Calvino Rabeni: and follow it into infinitely quiet after each time the bell rang.
    Calvino Rabeni: It was a zen martial arts dojo practice
    Paradise Tennant: to hear the silence within sound ?
    Calvino Rabeni: But that was like using a mantra to get a taste - it seems later the bell sound isn't needed any more
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Paradise Tennant: tibetans have a sort of symbol which they think can part reality .. it has a beautiful sound
    Calvino Rabeni: I like the singing bowl - it is fun to have a group meditation with those
    Paradise Tennant: yes bought one this summer .. they are beautiful to look at as well
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I'd like to have a big quartz one
    Paradise Tennant: lol hmm not sure you would get the sound .. the resonance or frequency comes from the comingling of seven or eight types of metal
    Paradise Tennant: I have an explanation somewhere of how they are crafted
    Calvino Rabeni: There is a tibetan guy teaching with different bowls made of mineral - i just saw it on youtube - don't know if he's good
    Paradise Tennant: I am going to have to try to listen for the silence within the sound though
    Calvino Rabeni: RIght there's an ancient art to it
    Calvino Rabeni: One thing I really liked about temples in asia is some have lots of bells
    Paradise Tennant: yes and they are works of art and love
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe dozens or hundreds, with scriptures etc, on them
    Paradise Tennant: yes each symbol with a meaning
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, the bells speak them

    Train station: "This is water"

    Is there a deffault setting in us to communicate with others, what it could be and can we control it?

    Wol Euler clears her throat. "Does anyone have anything to say about Play as Being's meditation practices, or their effect in your life?"
    Calvino Rabeni: Ahem
    Wol Euler listens attentively.
    Calvino Rabeni: No, but I have a book to ask you about

    Wol Euler: ah!
    Calvino Rabeni: "This Is Water"

    Calvino Rabeni: My mother read it - and was not impressed
    Calvino Rabeni: (I thought it was OK)
    Calvino Rabeni: The comment was - do you really think people go around being irritated and annoyed all the time at other people in public, on the road, in the supermarket?
    Wol Euler: actually, yes I do
    Calvino Rabeni: So, it was a comment on the *presumptive* zeitgeist.
    Wol Euler: for certain values of "people" and "all the time"
    Wol Euler: road rage exists.
    Wol Euler: people who swear at others in the lineup at a supermarket certainly exist.
    Bertrum Quan: I haven't read the book. Can you talk about it a bit?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but it was addressed at a population of college graduates
    Wol Euler: do we have to be like them? no. That is DFW's point 

    According the book above mentioned, everybody is normally, an impatient jerk!

    Calvino Rabeni: And its implicit message is -
    Wol Euler: Bertrum, we are talking about a very short book called "This is water", a commencement address by the late and much-lamented David Foster Wallace
    Calvino Rabeni: OK, if I came up to you at a party out of the blue and said - "Glad to meet you - you know, you don't have to be a jerk all the time" - wouldn't that be negatively presumptuous?
    Wol Euler: yes, of course.
    Bertrum Quan: Thanks for the link.
    Calvino Rabeni: And if I said it to a huge group of people, ditto?
    Wol Euler: but commencement addresses are not parties, and students are used to people telling them what to do.
    Calvino Rabeni: It would be saying - well maybe YOU are not an ass, but most of the people around you probably ARE
    Calvino Rabeni: Solving a problem that doesn't necessarily exist 
    The reason of our dissapointments and suffering

    Calvino Rabeni: I'm saying, it communicates a normative idea of human nature
    Wol Euler: mmmmmm yes
    Calvino Rabeni: If a newspaper article had the presumptive opinion that EVERYBODY has road rage, it would be similar
    Wol Euler: and then proposes that we can do something about that.
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure
    Wol Euler: and that our lives would be better for being aware that this "default setting" (as he calls it) exists, and that it is an option
    Wol Euler: I read that differently, though I can certainly see where you got your impression.
    Calvino Rabeni: Next question is, if you went around doing an empirical experiment, and trying to find out whether people normally felt so bent out of shape by their public encounters, what do you suppose would be discovered?
    Wol Euler: I thought DFW was saying "our default setting is to think we are the centre of the universe, and to be upset when life contradicts that."
    Calvino Rabeni: And in the absence of the ability to do that, what information does it comunicate as a default assumption?

    Wol Euler: the same as Buddha and Ecclesiastes and Schopenhauer communicated (not to say that their statements made it "correct" either)
    Wol Euler: that by assuming ourselves to be the most important thing in the universe, we set ourselves up for disappointment and suffering
    Calvino Rabeni: It struck me as a bit like a Christian going around saying "All Ye SInners"
    Wol Euler: thanks for dropping in. We are talking about "This is water" by David Foster Wallace
    Calvino Rabeni: Which seems OK on the steet corner as a kind of rant
    Calvino Rabeni: but not necessarily in a theater of public opinion, like a college
    Wol Euler: on the contrary, I can think of no better setting for this lesson than in a place where learning allegedly occurs :)
    Calvino Rabeni: The overall lesson - good
    Calvino Rabeni: The "don't be a jerk" - I have doubts about it
    Calvino Rabeni: It just seems patronizing
    Wol Euler: I should say in fairness, that I read this after reading and loving "Infinite Jest", so I bring a certain amount of trust and good-feeling to DFW

    Calvino Rabeni: See, I liked the book, other than that
    Wol Euler: my reaction might have been different had I read this first
    Calvino Rabeni: Fairly said
    Wol Euler: as for the "don't be a jerk", it is a traditional part of commencement speechifying
    Wol Euler: remind me, does he actually use those words?
    Wol Euler: (flipping through my copy)
    Calvino Rabeni: No, he doesn't, its implied in my opinion, in the supermarket scene
    Calvino Rabeni: (end of digression into ethical aspect of public speaking)
    Wol Euler: yes, ok, his description is slanted to make you despise them — while knowing yourself to have been there and done that too
    Calvino Rabeni is studying his fingernails

    Freedom as attention, awareness, discipline and effort

    Wol Euler: page 120 "The really important kind of freedom involves attention, and awareness, and discipline, and effort, and being able to truly care about other people and to sacrifice for them, over and over, in myriad petty little unsexy ways, every day. That is real freedom."
    Wol Euler: when I remember "This is water", I think of that, not the supermarket scene
    Pema Pera: I just read http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/sep/20/fiction -- presumably that's the gist of it? I wasn't familiar with it
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm wondering what an empirical study would show about this aspect of public intersubjectivity
    Wol Euler: yep, that's it
    Pema Pera: yes, just read that quote, Wol, sounds pretty good!
    Wol Euler: more than half of it actually :) It is a very short book
    Pema Pera: and utterly realistic
    Pema Pera: perhaps he talks like a younger brother of Stim? :-)
    Pema Pera: same message, a bit more in your face
    Wol Euler chuckles

    One possible answer what is truth (according the book "This is Water")
    Wol Euler: page 130 "[The truth] is about making it to thirty, or maybe even fifty, without wanting to shoot yourself in the head."
    Wol Euler: which of course, sadly, DFW himself didn't.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, luckily
    Wol Euler: O.O
    Wol Euler: would you unpack your use of "luckily" please?
    Calvino Rabeni: I mean, it would have been much more ironic if he had killed himself in precicsely the fashion he foreshadowed in that book
    Wol Euler: ah, yes. Right.
    Calvino Rabeni: So I'm glad that he used a different method, - of course goes without saying, too bad he did it at all
    Wol Euler nods.

    Each statement is a shadow, a projection of something, and never catching or really limits the something in any way...

    Calvino Rabeni: What strikes me is the dearth of objective information about others subjective perceptions of the public sphere
    Calvino Rabeni: So for instance, someone can go around saying "it's a dog eat dog world", and that can't be contradicted
    Calvino Rabeni: Although it may not be at all accurate, it becomes part of the zeitgeist
    Wol Euler: except to say "that is your perception, I see it differently"
    Wol Euler: but there is no "proof" either way
    Calvino Rabeni: But that's a weak position, pragmatically
    Calvino Rabeni: No, evidence could in principle be provided
    Calvino Rabeni: That would be good enough to affect public opinion
    Pema Pera: each statement is a shadow, a projection of something, and never catching or really limits the something in any way
    Pema Pera: it does give *some* information
    Wol Euler ponders. Why is it that people who presume goodness are felt to be naive, and those who presume bad intentions are felt to be clever?
    Pema Pera: that's all
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes that's my point - it is a bias
    Wol Euler: well, we too can affect public opinion (we the non-dog-eat-doggers)
    Wol Euler: by broadcasting our view
    Pema Pera: Wol, I think the media likes to exaggerate, and perhaps it is easier to exaggerate the bad than the good :-)
    Wol Euler: or better still: by living it publicly
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it works between friends also
    Wol Euler: definitely
    Wol Euler: and strangers 

    Wol's story or how Wol managed to make unpleasant circumstances to become pleasant

    Wol Euler: I was on a train last winter that took six hours for a 90 minute journey
    Calvino Rabeni: If you have positive expectations of those you meet, they feel it, and vice versa, and it influences their perceived possibilities in some real way
    Pema Pera: dog reminds dog to stop eating for 9 seconds -- how about that headline? Should try in August!
    Wol Euler: everyone including me was getting annoyed and irritated: "why does this happen to me?"
    Wol Euler: "why did the world choose ME to do something bad to?"
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Wol Euler: I felt myself doing that, and decided that it was the wrong way to behave
    Calvino Rabeni: Another bias - that ME gets the worst of the deal compared to others
    Wol Euler: so I told myself that this was an adventure, and that I should relax into it and see what comes out
    Pema Pera: can you remember what triggered you to make that decision, Wol?
    Wol Euler: and without my actually saying anything, that attitude communicated itself to those around me, and we started a really good, calm, discussion
    Pema Pera: wow, that's great, Wol !
    Pema Pera: and yes, I've seen those things happen
    Pema Pera: doesn't take too much sometimes -- just the surprise smile can be enough
    Wol Euler: the trigger was listening to myself, to the words falling out of my mouth, and the inner observer sneered and said "you sound like a spoiled child"
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Pema Pera 's inner observer is envious of Wol's inner observer :)
    Wol Euler: it might have been better had my inner detached-and-peaceful observer said "that is not quite right, dear wol" but that isn't how it happened :)
    Pema Pera: hehehe
    Pema Pera: that might not have cut it, though
    Wol Euler: yeah

    Wol Euler: [1:40] Calvino Rabeni: If you have positive expectations of those you meet, they feel it, and vice versa, and it influences their perceived possibilities in some real way
    Wol Euler: yes, very true!
    Calvino Rabeni: I had a personal example of this today
    Calvino Rabeni: The idea in action as it were
    Calvino Rabeni: (a fog congeals into a sleek mass of latex)
    Calvino's story or how our own expectations could mislead us
    Calvino Rabeni: I was walking a public street, and an old woman was approaching
    Calvino Rabeni: with a head scarf, kind of walking as an elder does
    Calvino Rabeni: And as I approached, I had a feeling of approaching a grouch
    Calvino Rabeni: but I checked myself as I didn't want to reflect that to this person
    Calvino Rabeni: SO I dropped the feelign
    Calvino Rabeni: And when she spoke, her voice suprised me with its quality
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Calvino Rabeni: which was quite resonant and lovely - a foreign voice
    Calvino Rabeni: And I almost had a feeling she might be a saint, or at least, have some wonderful depth
    Calvino Rabeni: But it felt like I could have showed her I thought she was a grouch
    Calvino Rabeni: It's pretty quick impressions that go between people
    Wol Euler: mmhmm, and she would have spoken differently or not at all
    Calvino Rabeni: exactly
    Calvino Rabeni: in a way, I set myself to get that resposne
    Wol Euler: yep, we make the world that we live in.
    Calvino Rabeni: To a greater degree that we think,
    Calvino Rabeni: partly by questioning the presumed privacy of our so calld subjective impressions
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Calvino Rabeni: OK, so would that go over with the college commencement crowd ? :)
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Wol Euler: they might not yet have enough experience, or enough self-awareness, to see it
    Wol Euler: certainly I didn't know this when I was 22, or even 30
    Wol Euler: it took me many decades to stop being a jerk :)
    Calvino Rabeni: No doubt there are some in the college crowd who can see that kind of thing.
    Calvino Rabeni: I think about certain motivational speakers I have heard
    Calvino Rabeni: They often have a "be positive" message
    Calvino Rabeni: but the subtext varies

    Train station:"Gardenians in the darkest hour of the night"


    Changes and what they offer

    Eliza Madrigal: Re changing nature... it isn't natural for things not to circulate...
    Eliza Madrigal: it is when things stop changing one should worry

    Eliza Madrigal: we have these daily practices of, for instance, letting go of what we have to see what we are....
    Eliza Madrigal: letting go is what though... it is acceptance of a kind of groundlessness
    Eliza Madrigal: of constant change...
    Eliza Madrigal: which brings the energy, really....
    Eliza Madrigal: the breeze...
    Geoff Baily: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: so if that is what is 'real'... constant change....
    Eliza Madrigal: it is safer to embrace, as it were, that
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Geoff Baily: energy
    Eliza Madrigal: which basically means embracing others...

    Groundlessnes, being grounded and how does the ego relate with them

    SophiaSharon Larnia: interesting contrast groundlessness and being grounded
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes indeed
    Zen Arado: grounded in groundlessness?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: what part does the ego play in that, do you think?
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm...
    Zen Arado: ego wants solid ground I think
    SophiaSharon Larnia: one, stripping off the layers of and the other something to stand on
    Eden Haiku: I need solid ground.
    Zen Arado: a solid idea of self
    Eliza Madrigal: ego wants the illusion of control/identity/unchanging....
    Eden Haiku: No, solid ground. not the same ;-)
    Geoff Baily: now? Eden but not always
    Eden Haiku: Connection to the centre of the earth.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: didnt think of it in those terms before, i always thought being grounded was a sign that i was doing something 'right'
    Eden Haiku: Yes, me too.
    Zen Arado: yeah...not 'up in the clouds'
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, solid ground would be that which is 'real' as contrasted with what is illusory (Ie stability)
    Eliza Madrigal: so one could phrase it that way, too....
    Eden Haiku: It is different fro one person to the other also I suppose.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: grounded as in being sharp in the moment
    Zen Arado: Pema Chodron talks a lot about groundlessness

    Eliza Madrigal: "Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature.... Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." H. Keller

    Inner energy field

    Zen Arado: can you feel an inner energy field as suggested by Eckhart

    Tolle Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes I'm very aware of the 'inner body'
    Eliza Madrigal: but it seems energy field implies something else? more a collective?
    Eden Haiku: At the source of Reiki, there was this question by a theology student in Japan: 'How did it work when Christ applied his hands and people would heal'.?
    Zen Arado: maybe the same thing different names?
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm
    Zen Arado: Qigong?
    Eliza Madrigal: go on Eden?
    Eden Haiku: The teacher went to Mount Fuji to reflect on the question.
    Eden Haiku: And there, he "received' mantras and techniques of Reiki.

    That is what is transmitted now.
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah
    Zen Arado: interesting
    Eliza Madrigal: I didn't know reiki dealt with mantras
    Zen Arado: you can do it from a distance too?
    Eliza Madrigal has experienced feeling 'better' after a session here....
    Eden Haiku: I was joking but nevertheless, I think you can access Reiki even if you haven't been trainde in it Eliza. You might be doing it, channeling this healing energy, when you are touching your child's foerhead when he has a fever.
    Zen Arado: when they start talking about chakras and third eye I start getting switched off though
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm
    Zen Arado: maybe diseases are caused by energy blockages

    Train Station:"Hello recorder"

    Another book - "Touching Enlightenment with the body"

    Zen Arado: I am trying to sense this 'inner body as a single field of energy' as Tolle puts it
    Solobill Laville: I am a bit of a "practice freak", in that to me anyway, discipline and regularity are vital
    Solobill Laville: Sounds great, Zen, how is it going??
    Zen Arado: works a little
    Zen Arado: can feel.....something
    Zen Arado: warmth
    Zen Arado: takes a lot of practice
    Zen Arado: and I want this body awareness to be there all the time
    Liza Deischer: 'want'
    Zen Arado: be able to sense people at this level instead of mentally
    Zen Arado: make any sense?
    Solobill Laville: Indeed
    Wol Euler: yep
    Liza Deischer: yes it does
    Zen Arado: thought this was mumbo jumbo not so long ago :)
    Solobill Laville: What? Not with a first name lilke Zen! ;)
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Zen Arado: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Zat's it Zen
    Zen Arado: find Zen teaches me to stand back from thoughts
    Zen Arado: but not much emphasis on body awareness
    Solobill Laville: Ah, depends on the school of Zen
    Zen Arado: but I am prob wrong
    arabella Ella: perhaps on virtual bodily awareness?
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Zen Arado: I got that initially from MBSR bodyscan
    Zen Arado: mindfulness based stress reduction
    Wol Euler nods
    Zen Arado: and book I read lately
    Solobill Laville: Well, that is a truism
    Zen Arado: about
    Zen Arado: Touching Enlightenment with the body
    Agatha Macbeth: What exactly is MSBR Zen?
    Solobill Laville: zen - there are also schools (most of them actually) that integrate body practices with meditation
    arabella Ella: yes could you describe how it happens Zen please?
    Zen Arado: body scan is just visualising each part of your body mindfully
    Zen Arado: giving each part full attention
    Solobill Laville: If I may add to that Zen
    Zen Arado: go ahead
    Zen Arado: Solo
    Solobill Laville: Body scan meditation also helps to alleviate tightness / pain when in meditation
    Solobill Laville: with the breath
    arabella Ella: how lovely that sounds Solo
    Solobill Laville: It also helps to practice placing your center "not in your head"
    Zen Arado: yes visualizing the breath flowing to each part helps too
    Agatha Macbeth: Where is the centre then Solo?
    Liza Deischer: ore using beathing as a meditation oject
    Solobill Laville: tanchen - in Korean
    Solobill Laville: Just below the navel
    Zen Arado: it was developed by guy called Kabat Zinn in Boston
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah right
    Wol Euler: aaah, that name rings bells
    Zen Arado: adapted from Zrn
    Wol Euler: so to speak
    Zen Arado: Zen
    Solobill Laville: Oh, I think it is much older than Zinn, but I'm sure he customized it a bit :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Zen Arado: oh yes
    Zen Arado: he saw how it could be useful for patients
    Zen Arado: who might not like the religious connotations
    Solobill Laville: But, to me, the main point is that it help to break away our certainty that our mind is our brain
    Liza Deischer: but everybody thinks they found out the new thing
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes Sol :)
    Zen Arado: Zinn was a Zen practitioner for a long time himself
    Solobill Laville: I'd recommend everyone to try it out - lay on your back and work your way up in you mind from your toest to the top of your head

    Train station:"The six words of advice of Tilopa"

    Old Tibetan wisdom in  6 words; starts with a question about Schacth's school

    Pema Pera: how are your Tibetan lessons going?
    Scathach Rhiadra: quite well, we have a few students and meet regularly
    Pema Pera: are you reading any particular text?
    Archmage Atlantis: Is not the Tibetan text already distilled, Pema...for this life?
    Scathach Rhiadra: no, the alphabet takes a lot of time with new students, though Stim recommended a text for learning some doctrinal topics
    Scathach Rhiadra: so we may use that in the future
    Scathach Rhiadra: oh, we do use a language text-book, if that is what you meant?
    Pema Pera: no, I wondered whether there was a simple text
    Pema Pera: some texts are very very short
    Scathach Rhiadra: true, and I have some in the display system, but we are only now starting to use them

    It will be easy to remember these words definetely, they are clear, let's see how much I will imply it into my daily life

    Pema Pera: For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilopa#...ords_of_Advice
    Pema Pera: literally six words!
    Pema Pera: it is one of the texts that has inspired me most . . . . the six words of advice of Tilopa
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, I have that in Tibetan:)
    Pema Pera: is it part of your practice?
    Scathach Rhiadra: Don't recall. Don't imagine. Don't think. Don't examine. Don't control. Rest.
    Pema Pera: yes
    Zon Quar: dont understand 3rd word
    Archmage Atlantis: Say the six word yourself Pema
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, resting is good:))
    Zon Quar: let go what is happening now ?
    Scathach Rhiadra: don't analyse

    Pema Pera: The more free translation by Ken McLeod is: Let go of what has passed. Let go of what may come. Let go of what is happening now. Don't try to figure anything out. Don't try to make anything happen. Relax, right now, and rest.

    Zon Quar: u should be watchful
    Zon Quar: now
    Archmage Atlantis: It is a mantra for the commanded then
    Zon Quar: by resting ?
    Pema Pera: the first three are about time, the next two about input/output: sensori/motor, the last one only is positive: rest
    Pema Pera: five no's and one yes
    Pema Pera: don't live in time, don't focus on input/output, rest
    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, relaxed alertness
    Pema Pera: yes
    Archmage Atlantis: Do you believe we learn new things Pema?
    Zon Quar: whats the difference between 3 and 4
    Pema Pera: biological organisms live in time and hence have needs, for the future, and input/output
    Pema Pera: the challenge is to go beyond the purely biological view of things
    Pema Pera: beyond our boundaries
    Pema Pera: at least that's how I read it
    Pema Pera: 3 is about the present, Zon, while 4 is about analyzing the world (past, present, future)
    Zon Quar: 3 then ?
    Archmage Atlantis: Many of the young see that as mechanical/computationa betond
    Zon Quar: sounds similar
    Pema Pera: don't focus on past, future, or present; don't spend time on figuring out or acting -- live without friction
    Pema Pera: how so, Zon?
    Zon Quar: thinkin
    Zon Quar: 3
    Zon Quar: examinin 4
    Zon Quar: both r thinking ?
    Zon Quar: analysing

    Zon Quar: when u think the present,,u r either thinking past, future or analysing the world ?
    Zon Quar: oops
    Scathach Rhiadra: focusing on the present can mean getting caughtup or lost in what is happening around you, distracted

    Pema Pera: "thinking" here means "focusing on the present as an isolated point in time, "using your thinking now" -- while "analyzing or figuring out seems to be a more goal-oriented activity; analyzing what is happening, has happened, will happen in the future, a very tedious way to live -- in contrast, a wu-wei kind of spontaneous way of live doesn't use "thinking" as such, but something much more direct and fluid
    Pema Pera: yes, nice summary, Scathach!

    Different impressions; time is missing element in logs

    Pema Pera: (our chat logs don't show when we are silent for ten minutes . . . )
    Scathach Rhiadra: :))
    Scathach Rhiadra: looks like everyone is resting:)
    Pema Pera: (the time element is missing -- sometimes the impression in reading is very different from being here!)

    Train station:"Struggle"

    Can we own anything here?

    SophiaSharon Larnia: we struggle when things change and feel the emptiness of the perceived loss
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and also to do with One-Self`s own choose , how people do choose to think, or act, or both Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes.... loss can be quite painful
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, those kind of things do happen in life all the time, changing.. but what happens if we can just trust.. so that we notice we have trusted on Trut??
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: fear to loose something..
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: can we own anything in here?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: how we can loose it then?
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Lots of questions Cosmic, but I definitely hear what you are saying....
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, in a big picture way we understand that we can't hold onto things and this is what causes us pain so often....
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Cosmicflower :0 that is the question
    Eliza Madrigal: In a day to day practice way.... We are hit with surprises...
    Eliza Madrigal: and even things we know are coming we can't plan or expect...
    Eliza Madrigal: and that can hit hard
    Eliza Madrigal: in a solid way, perhaps
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well, its because we can not controll everyhting, and especially others free will to choose
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think

    About enlightenment, heart and truth

    Zen Arado: Eckhart Tolle warns about putting enlightenment as somethng to be achieved in the future
    Eliza Madrigal: we're surrounded by things that have died or are dying... things that are coming to life, etc
    Bertram Jacobus: nice warning ! :-)
    sophia Placebo: nods to zen
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Eliza Madrigal: a line from him I love is "When you are seeing the future, you are seeing it now..."
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: One day I had interesting conversation with one person about enlightement
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think its not the way its "teached"
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: "not to do this or that"
    Eliza Madrigal: that even if you build a time machine and go back to the past, you arrive there 'now'...hehe
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: But following One`s heart
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes nice Cosmic
    Zen Arado: yes Eliza
    Zen Arado: it was always now :)
    Eliza Madrigal: So there is something essential in a way ....
    sophia Placebo: heart works with association with ego , desire and emotions to run the body so one must know where the order to move your body/emotions come from
    Eliza Madrigal: even when we let go we embrace in a larger way, etc..somehow
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh wow sophia, yes that's a powerful point reemotions/body
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hmm, I think ego is worked with head
    Eliza Madrigal: and how we affect others too, emotionally. We can't always 'help' in a tangible way but we can just be together and it matters
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: And heart do work with One`s own truth

    Train station:"Revisiting dreams"

    Dreams and Being

    Maxine Walden: You know, I have come to wonder whether the intelligence of the dream may be akin to aspects of Being, something bigger than we are, but intimately linked to us Maxine Walden: Still trying to do some thinking about this but it is intriguing
    stevenaia Michinaga: was thinking something similar just now
    Maxine Walden: oh, Steve? Interesting
    Archmage Atlantis: "rock-aby,,,,the city, the land, we are more"
    stevenaia Michinaga: being comes from (is seen from) that place dreams comes from
    stevenaia Michinaga: big B

    Oversoul in "The Urantia Book"

    Eden Haiku: Thinking about the Oversoul of the Urantia Cosmology...Not remembering exactly what I read, years ago
    Maxine Walden: yes, Steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: googling that one
    Maxine Walden: Ah, Eden, not familiar with Urantia
    Calvino Rabeni: This might or might not come under the same idea - but when we do an oracle like the I Ching, I think of it as a dream like query into reality
    Maxine Walden: yes, deserves a google
    Maxine Walden: interesting, Calvino
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Urantia_Book
    stevenaia Michinaga: is that it, Eden?
    Calvino Rabeni: A form of active dreaming

    Eden Haiku: Can't see the oversoul I was remembering though, but I read it in French so..It was something like a Soul that connected many souls, a kind of intermediary between Being and us.

    "Tales of Wonder" and dreaming like eating dessert

    Paradise Tennant: huston smith wrote a great book autobiography called Tales of Wonder captures many moment of awe where the boundaries .. have shifted in the course of ordinary life
    Calvino Rabeni: It is more interesting to me to focus on the interdisciplinary scientists, compared to the dogmatic ones
    Paradise Tennant: was curled up reading it ealier tonight
    Eden Haiku: Tales of Wonder. looking it up...
    Paradise Tennant: what is the urantia book?
    Archmage Atlantis: Someone has to do the data collection
    Archmage Atlantis: To lead is to love
    Eden Haiku: http://www.harpercollins.ca/books/9780061154263/Tales_of_Wonder/index.as

    px?AA=index_authorIntro_9210Eden Haiku: Steve gave us the link earlier. Something in the conversation about dreams and Being reminded me this book I read years ago.
    Eden Haiku: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Urantia_Book
    Paradise Tennant: ;) often thinks dreaming is like eating dessert really .. another layer of experience that is an added treat










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