2009.03.16 13:00 - Joining In

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Stim Morane. The comments are by Stim Morane.

    {During this session we continued our investigation of “appreciating appearance as a presentation of Being. The emphasis was on not just being an observer, but joining in more completely.}

    Fefonz Quan: Hello Stim

    Stim Morane: Hi Fefonz

    Fefonz Quan: Hello Ade, Scath :)

    Stim Morane: Hi Adelene and Scathach

    Adelene Dawner: :)

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim, Fefonz, Adelene

    Mickorod Renard: hiya everyone

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Micko, Ara

    Fefonz Quan: Hello Mick,arabella

    arabella Ella: hiya everyone!

    Stim Morane: Hi arabella and Mick

    Mickorod Renard: hi fefonz

    Mickorod Renard: Stim

    Mickorod Renard: Scath

    Adelene Dawner is primarily wordless today; this may have something to do with her having figured out why she was thinking of doing a 'not speaking' practice, but she's not going to explain it today. ^.^

    arabella Ella: Fefonz, Stim, Scath Adelene, Mick

    Pila Mulligan is Online

    Mickorod Renard: Ara

    Mickorod Renard: hi Ade

    arabella Ella: hiya Pila

    Mickorod Renard: hi Pila

    Pila Mulligan: greetings

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pila

    Stim Morane: Hi Pila

    Stim Morane: Pema just IM'd me to say he'll be a few minutes late

    Stim Morane: So what trouble can we get into meanwhile?

    Scathach Rhiadra: :)

    Mickorod Renard: hiya Wol

    Wol Euler: looks I arrived just in time!

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wol

    Stim Morane: Hi Wol

    Wol Euler: hello all

    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Pema

    Pema Pera: Hi everybody!

    Pila Mulligan: hi Wol and Pema

    Pema Pera: sorry to be late

    arabella Ella: hiya Pema

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pema

    Stim Morane: Hi Pema

    Wol Euler waves

    arabella Ella: Hiya Wol

    Pema Pera: so this is the continuation of a weekly theme meeting, moderated by Stim and me

    PaB Listener Master whispers: The session has not yet been claimed by a Guardian.

    Pema Pera: about "appreciating the presence of appearance"

    Pema Pera: (Stim, you probably would like to claim the session :-)

    PaB Listener Master: Stim Morane has just claimed the session and will receive link to the log after the session is done. This replaces any previous claim.

    Pema Pera: Stim, would you like to start off?

    Stim Morane: As I've mentioned before, the main way I usually do this sort of thing is based on reports from other people ... how they're doing, etc.

    Stim Morane: In this case, if I have to start without that, I'd just say the main thing is to try it. And continue, and learn ...

    Stim Morane: I'm not sure how that's going ... if I have to add something, I'd suggest becoming more aware of what is being added to "appearances"

    Stim Morane: But that too has been discussed here.

    Stim Morane: The question is, has it been extensively explored, and if so, with what results?

    Fael Illyar: Hi Everyone :)

    Stim Morane: Hi Fael

    Pema Pera: Hi Fael!

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fael

    Pila Mulligan: hi Fael

    Pema Pera: May I try to elaborate on that, Stim?

    Stim Morane: Please

    Mickorod Renard: Hi Fael

    Pema Pera: So there are two things that we can do:

    Pema Pera: 1) in RL and SL and whenever and wherever: we can slowly repeat for ourselves the sentence "appreciate the presence of appearance", as something to put on the tongue, so to speak, and to let slowly melt

    Pema Pera: at first it may not make much sense, but as Stim said: try it, and see what happens. Most likely something will happen and it will begin to make some kind of sense

    Pema Pera: 2) here in SL during the PaB sessions we can follow up in yet again two ways:

    Pema Pera: 2a) report on what happened during 1); how we felt, what was puzzling, what was inspiring, and discuss that and compare our experiences and our interpretations

    Pema Pera: 2b) try to walk around the sentence, as a group, trying to wrap our mind around it, so to speak, getting familiar with it my trying to analyze it

    Pema Pera: The way that could happen is to start at the end, asking questions like:

    Pema Pera: -- what is this "appearance", what is meant by that word?

    Pema Pera: -- what is the "presence of appearance", what does that point to?

    Pema Pera: -- what is the "appreciation" that we are talking about in "appreciate the presence of appearance"?

    Pema Pera: So in all this, we'll have to do 1) on ourselves, and I really hope you will try that out on your own, in between this session and the one next week

    Pema Pera: and here we can focus on 2a) and 2b): starting with reporting/sharing and starting with probing/questioning

    Pema Pera: Does anyone like to start with either 2a or 2b ?

    Pila Mulligan: maybe the question, what is the "presence of appearance"?

    Pila Mulligan: to you, the moderators :)

    Stim Morane: what does it mean to us?

    Pila Mulligan: or is that appropriate?

    Pila Mulligan: yes

    Stim Morane: To me it points at the presence of all things

    Stim Morane: I could say "in their immediacy", but that may imply things that are not quite right

    Stim Morane: Anyway, this gets back to the "suchness" topic.

    Stim Morane: It's all about suchness, but that term can't itself be defined in other, common terms

    arabella Ella: but ... if i may ... all things ... when we appreciatge the presence of appearance don't we focus on something in particular and not on 'everything'?

    Stim Morane: so in a way, it's not easy to give a completely forthcoming answer to your question

    Stim Morane: Is that what you do, arabella?

    arabella Ella: yes

    Stim Morane: And ...?

    arabella Ella: may i give one or two brief examples?

    Stim Morane: please

    arabella Ella: well the other day i looked out to sea on a lovely warm day with a clear blue sky

    arabella Ella: and i noticed two seagulls

    arabella Ella: this happened to be twice recently

    Stim Morane: so what was the "appearance" in that case?

    arabella Ella: and i focussed on the seagulls in the distance to appreciate the presence of appearance

    Stim Morane: I see

    arabella Ella: and again on some lovely freesias blooming on my roof

    arabella Ella: the colour, the shape, the texture, the smell, etc

    Stim Morane: would you accept that the "focusing" and the "I" that focused and the sense perception(s) being used were also "appearances" too?

    arabella Ella: yes i think so

    Stim Morane: this will lead to my "everything"

    arabella Ella: but it seemed as though i blocked out everything else

    Storm Nordwind is Offline

    Stim Morane: Well I agree with your approach of course. One can't go trying to include "everything".

    arabella Ella: yes i see

    Stim Morane: But still, a great deal is involved in even a very small, focussed thing

    arabella Ella: thanks for the clarification

    Storm Nordwind is Online

    Adelene Dawner: http://www.365tomorrows.com/03/04/talkstink/

    arabella Ella: with the seafulls it was a sense of wonder, of freedom, of carefreeness and the smell of the sea

    arabella Ella: and of movement of course as they were in flight

    Stim Morane: you are appreciating life, and the world ... this is a very important thing.

    arabella Ella: yes

    arabella Ella: the beauty in awe and wonder

    Stim Morane: Yes, exactly. Great! Hopefully it can be kept while we are also appreciating the rest of what is involved in the components.

    Storm Nordwind is Offline

    arabella Ella: ok yes

    Stim Morane: I.e., we can not only appreciate life, but what is involved in the appreciation itself.

    Stim Morane: Sometimes this latter will pull the plug on the former, which is a pity.

    arabella Ella: could you elaborate a bit on that Stim please?

    Stim Morane: But in the longer term, it actually intensifies what you're describing.

    Storm Nordwind is Online

    Stim Morane: When people try what Pema is suggesting, in the short term they may become narrow-focused and lose their connection to life's preciousness.

    Stim Morane: But in the longer term, they appreciate much much more.

    Stim Morane: I think the same thing happens when we try to learn anything new.

    Fefonz Quan: yes, for me it commonly have some detached floating feeling accompanying it

    Stim Morane: Yes

    Fefonz Quan: has*

    Mickorod Renard: its sometimes nicer learning something old

    Stim Morane: I agree. Life should always involve learning.

    Stim Morane: And not just along the same old lines.

    Fael Illyar: Yes, learning :)

    Mickorod Renard: if you read a book for a second time,,its interesting how much more you get outa it

    Stim Morane: Yes. In this case, we're talking about that, plus learning and seeing more about the whole context and underpinnings of the "reading".

    Stim Morane: This wil require bringing out a new kind of mind to do it.

    Mickorod Renard: I tend to treat people like books nowadays,,so much more to a person than the cover

    Stim Morane: :)

    Fael Illyar: Yes, although, like with books, you don't have the time to look under every cover :)

    Mickorod Renard: the mind wonders off

    Stim Morane: No, but we have the time to appreciate what is with us at any given moment ... at least some of the time.

    Fefonz Quan suggest we writer previews on our back to make it easier Fael :)

    Mickorod Renard: thinking

    Fael Illyar: yes, I'd think that's why I concentrate on my AVs appearance this much here :)

    Stim Morane: :)

    Fael Illyar: no idea how it's read or what exactly it reads though :)

    Wol Euler: RL needs right-clickable profiles.

    Stim Morane: I'm becoming intrigued and worried now ...

    Fefonz Quan: business cards Wol?

    Qt Core: soul card maybe

    Wol Euler: rather that, Qt

    Pema Pera: perhaps Stim was not talking about information . . . .

    Fael Illyar: worried?

    Stim Morane: no, that's why I'm a bit worried.

    Mickorod Renard: but I guess if we can extend the same interest to objects,,or life as a whole,,then this is appreciating?

    Stim Morane: We need to see, not more information.

    Pema Pera: :-)

    Stim Morane: We don't realize how much the capacity to see can be opened up. So we short-change it.

    Pema Pera: what Arabella said had very little to do with clicking on a profile of one of the birds . . . .

    arabella Ella: sounds very true to me

    Stim Morane: I also agree that the overlays you're talking about will be useful too, of course.

    Stim Morane: Yes, very true ... we should all follow her approach.

    Pema Pera: !!

    Stim Morane: That's the beginning of something with many other facets.

    Pema Pera: and all come to Malta, to hear beach :-)

    Pema Pera: *her

    Mickorod Renard: yeaaaa

    arabella Ella: yes you are all welcome of course!

    arabella Ella: to listen to the sound of waves on the shore

    Fefonz Quan: Stim you don't mean only visual seeing, i guess

    Stim Morane: no, it's not really visual.

    Stim Morane: But it includes that, of course.

    Mickorod Renard: so,,are we back to for example,,the greater perception that say a cobbler would have about a shoe?

    arabella Ella: i think it involves all the senses some of which seem to be combined at times

    Stim Morane: But really, it's something much more than the use of the senses to apprehend objects.

    Stim Morane: Yes arabella, it actually can involve a kind of fusion of the senses at a certain stage ... and go beyond that too.

    arabella Ella: yes it involves the feelings and meanings we sense about the presence we are appreciating i think

    Stim Morane: yes, very true.

    Stim Morane: so you can see how big an adventure we're talking about here.

    Pila Mulligan: if i am feeling happy, and I starting inquiring as to the details of the happiness, the inquiry may displace the feeling

    Kiremimi Tigerpaw is Offline

    Stim Morane: yes, this is what I was referring to before, Pila.

    Stim Morane: But that will change.

    Pila Mulligan: worrisome :)

    Stim Morane: it won't be a long-term problem because the dryness of the stage you're talking about will itself be something to see more.

    Stim Morane: And that releases its limiting influence.

    arabella Ella: could you not perhaps Pila 'ride the wave' of your happy feeling and see how you are pleasurably sensing it

    Stim Morane: Everything much be included.

    Pila Mulligan: true

    XSkunk Karu: saludos terricolas

    Stim Morane: my arms have reached their typing limit ... Pema?

    XSkunk Karu: pero que dices!!

    Pema Pera: Skunk, can you please switch off your sound

    Mickorod Renard: anyone smell a skunk?

    XSkunk Karu: como lo hago?

    Pila Mulligan: bye

    arabella Ella: silencio Skunk por favor

    Mickorod Renard: he he he

    Pema Pera: well, that was an interesting variation on a theme . . .

    Mickorod Renard: there is appreciation,,and also realisation,,of certain misseries in the world

    Mickorod Renard: how do we contend with that?

    Wol Euler: skunk, follow me please, I will tell you what we are doing here.

    Wol's translator: skunk, síganme, por favor, le diré lo que estamos haciendo aquí.

    Pila Mulligan: distractions?

    Wol Euler: over here please, skunk

    Wol's translator: aquí, por favor, skunk

    Pema Pera: perhaps contending is not the question, Mick

    Fael Illyar: ummh... on my screen, skunk is standing out of scan range.

    Pema Pera: if we explore appearance, its presence, and ways to appreciate its presence, we can start with that

    Pema Pera: we don't want to start with analyzing

    Mickorod Renard: ok,,I need some positive thought

    Pema Pera: there is no end to that -- that is what we normally do: trying to figure out, trying to manipulate, for better or worse

    arabella Ella: do you mean we could attempt to move above and beyond anything that could make us miserable?

    Pema Pera: just looking at what is the case, like a mirror does, without getting stained

    Pema Pera: not above

    Pema Pera: not beyond

    Pema Pera: just watching it

    Qt Core: or just stay in place and let it pass

    Pema Pera: perhaps not even that

    Pema Pera: not worrying about passing or not

    Mickorod Renard: I did feel some 15-20 years ago like I was above the rest of the world nd like an observer

    Pema Pera: just see what is there in each moment

    Qt Core: yes, just staying not even noticing it

    Pema Pera: not judging, that is the key

    Pema Pera: very hard to do !

    genesis Zhangsun is Offline

    Stim Morane: It's important not to become an "observer"

    Mickorod Renard: I feel I have done it once imn the past,,and can relate,,but these days feel too distracted

    Pema Pera: yes, Mick it can take on such forms, but the key is to not look for anything particularly special, though if that happens, you can also appreciate that

    Qt Core: don't know, i usually argue a lot with the concept of we don't have to judge

    Pema Pera: but then, Mick, you can appreciate the presence of the appearance of distractions

    Pema Pera: this works for everything ! ! !

    Wol Euler chuckles

    Mickorod Renard: stim,,u say' not be an observer'?

    Pema Pera: bored?

    Pema Pera: appreciate the presence of the appearance (APA) of being bored

    Pema Pera: annoyed? APA of being annoyed

    Stim Morane: seeing is not "looking at" in an abstracted way

    Mickorod Renard: ok

    Stim Morane: it's more like joining in

    Mickorod Renard: mmmmmmmm?

    Stim Morane: would you agree, arabella?

    Adelene Dawner: 'observer' imploes more than *just* watching. Thinking about, too. Judging. Considering.

    Fefonz Quan: joining in indeed makes it hard not to be invloved

    arabella Ella: yes of course seeing is sensing in a special way ... to notice, observe, interpret in a way we do not normally do

    Fefonz Quan: for me observing is much easier for the non-judhement thing

    arabella Ella: seeing what thoughts come to mind connected to the presence and suspending judgement

    Qt Core: maybe i'm not understanding something... how can i act without judging ?

    Storm Nordwind is Offline

    Storm Nordwind is Online

    Pema Pera: start with watching without judging

    Pema Pera: or de-emphasizing judging

    Pema Pera: Arabella, while watching the seagulls did you get a sense of joining their flight in some way?

    Fael Illyar: that's the trick, some judging is necessary but to become stuck with the judgements you make is rather common.

    Qt Core: mmm, ok, i think i was thinking at another type of judging

    arabella Ella: it was actually a bit of a sense of longing for more freedom Pema watching the seagulls in flight

    You decline BUDDHA CENTERBuddhist Meditati, Buddhism new (198, 129, 31) from A group member named Delani Gabardini.

    arabella Ella: but in a positive way

    Mickorod Renard: I have joined in with birds flight before,,,I put it down to the fact I used to fly radio controlled model aircraft

    Adelene Dawner: Qt: Expand?

    Pema Pera: normally we identify with our body, or just our head or eyes . . . at times which you talked about, Arabella, we can sometimes feel to be present in a much wider way, including the birds perhaps, is that anywhere near what you felt?

    Qt Core: i was thinking about judging people and daily situations

    Pema Pera: big topic, Qt!

    Qt Core: not simple fact

    Pema Pera: normally there are subtle judgments at work in almost anything we even think, or say, or do

    Pema Pera: like and dislike

    Fael Illyar: Qt, that's quite exactly the type of judging we mean here.

    Pema Pera: APA goes beyond like and dislike

    Mickorod Renard: but is that because you surrender to' Being' ?

    Qt Core: i've discussed judgment several times, and i usually end being the only one saying we have to judge to act but being ready to change opinion if more informations become avaiable

    Pema Pera: one step at a time, Mick :-)

    Pema Pera: let's start with appreciation

    Pema Pera: fair enough, Qt!

    Pema Pera: sure, we should not suppress or deny the judging we have to do in daily life

    Pema Pera: but we can also put it on hold

    Pema Pera: or "wear it lightly"

    Pila Mulligan: I agree that we judge to act

    Pema Pera: like in a stage play, going through the motions without identifying too strong with it all

    Qt Core: many says it is partial and "racist" (i know it isn't the right world but is strong enough

    Wol Euler: I think I need a reboot, brb.

    Qt Core: word

    Pema Pera: you can agree about differences, and yet not judge them as absolutely good or bad

    Pema Pera: only relatively.

    Fael Illyar: speaking about judging is extra tricky because it tends to be understood subtly differentl b different people

    Pema Pera: If someone is tall, it is not good or bad -- but very good if you need something to pick up a roll of paper from a high shelf

    Pila Mulligan: true, Fael

    Qt Core: not many things are absolute, judgements surely aren't

    Pema Pera: but we tend to view them as absolute, Qt

    Pema Pera: that's our problem . . . we all do

    Pema Pera: hard to let that go

    Pema Pera: or even to see that we are doing that!

    Qt Core: i thinks that is what people thinks when they say we shouldn't judge

    Pila Mulligan: eventually, however happy or high our perceptions, people exercise judgment

    Pema Pera: it is almost 2, judging from my clock . . . .

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Mickorod Renard: if things are predetermined,,then whats the point in judging?

    Pema Pera: how does that help appreciation, Mick, asking that question?

    Pema Pera: not trying to be negative, but serious question from my side?

    Mickorod Renard: well,,maybe apreciation is the only logical thing left

    Pema Pera: ah! Okay, I see

    Pila Mulligan: a free will question

    Mickorod Renard: as critque is not relavent

    Pema Pera: yes, appreciation can be independent of theories or assumptions

    Pema Pera: Well, I have to go

    Pema Pera: partly of my own free will

    Stim Morane: Yes, I do as well

    Fael Illyar: See you later Pema :)

    Pila Mulligan: thanks Stim and Pema

    Wol Euler: bye pema, bye stim, thank you both

    Pema Pera: free will to go to the appointment I agreed to go to . . . .

    Mickorod Renard: bye Pema

    Pema Pera: thank you Stim, and all !

    arabella Ella: i personally feel that suspending judgement implies the acceptance of a number of different viewpoints which is also relevant to apa

    Mickorod Renard: bye stim

    Pema Pera: great to cover so much ground!

    Stim Morane: thanks, everyone! Bye!

    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Stim, Pema, ty

    Pema Pera: and thank you so much, Arabella, for grounding us in the air !!!

    Mickorod Renard: yea,,u r expected on another spacial plane

    arabella Ella: bye stim bye pema

    Fael Illyar: arabella, yes, allowing the viewpoints to coexist.

    Fefonz Quan: bye stim, pema

    Mickorod Renard: he he

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