2009.05.27 13:00 - The complexity of reals is intrinsic

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    Wol Euler was guardian and commenter for this session, filling in for Gen. I sat alone for the first quarter-hour, very unusual for a 1pm session.

    Wol Euler: hello storm
    Storm Nordwind: Hello Wol!
    Wol Euler: and hello gaya
    Wol Euler: I was thinking I'd be alone today
    Wol Euler: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Your GoC session is now this one Wol?
    Wol Euler: no, I just came by to see who was here, and found that nobody was. I htink this is still Gen's slot
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
    Storm Nordwind: perhaps she forgot to organise cover
    Storm Nordwind: She is at a conference
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ...
    Wol Euler: ah right! How silly, I read the e-mail but didn't make the logical inference.
    Storm Nordwind: Though she is online
    Wol Euler: an inworld conference?
    Gaya Ethaniel: How are you both?
    Storm Nordwind: So... I don't think so
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fortune :)
    Fortune Crystal: Hi!
    Storm Nordwind: She is at the N2Y4 Conference
    Wol Euler: hello fortune
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello kenji :)
    kenji Pookes: Hi
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Fortune, Kenji
    Wol Euler: hi kenji
    Wol Euler: Fortune, have you been here before?
    Fortune Crystal: yes, i've been to a few session
    Wol Euler: ok, good, just checking.
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Storm Nordwind: is that so you can spring the written exam on her Wol? ;)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Wol Euler: and the voluntary contribution envelope
    Gaya Ethaniel: /afk
    Wol Euler: so are we all, it seems :)
    Storm Nordwind: Hello sophia

    An accident sparks a conversation.

    Wol Euler: hello sohia
    sophia Placebo: greetings
    sophia Placebo: hi storm and wol
    Wol Euler: +p
    Storm Nordwind: Well sometimes it can be very quiet here Wolo, as you well know. And if there is no theme nor any burning questions, we can enjoy the peace :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Storm Nordwind: -o :)
    Wol Euler: cyclops?
    Wol Euler: punk cyclops
    Storm Nordwind: haha! Actually my correction to a misstype, in your style!
    Wol Euler: heheheheheh
    Wol Euler: ah, I didn't even notice. We read very generously here...
    Wol Euler: I would burn down a bookshop that sold me a novel containing as many typos as one sees in a typical SL sentence
    Storm Nordwind: Do you ever remove the spelling mistakes from chatlogs before posting them?
    Wol Euler: only once :)
    Wol Euler: now I apply corrections that people themselves make (*fix or -o for example)
    Storm Nordwind: :)

    Fortune distributes a notecard telling how to turn off the default typing animation.

    Storm Nordwind: Thank you for that Fortune. Do you dislike typing animation and sounds?
    Gaya Ethaniel: back sorry
    sophia Placebo: wb gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello sophia :)
    sophia Placebo: hi :)
    Fortune Crystal: No, I don't mind the typing animation but I offer them to other avatars who might not like typing as their avatar persona :-)
    Storm Nordwind: Ah I see.
    Storm Nordwind: I actually prefer them. It's a good audiovisual cue.
    Wol Euler: yes, I agreee
    Wol Euler: I removed from my AO those poses that overrode it
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: I don't like it on myself >.<
    sophia Placebo: dont mind them on or off
    Fortune Crystal: I agree, its a good audio visual cue but I conceive of my avatar as an extension of my RL self that just happens to live in second life so I, personally, prefer not to be typing as a form of communication cue when relating with people in second life. :-)
    Wol Euler: fair enough
    Wol Euler: mind you, I too am fully embodied here. This _is_ Wol's "real life" :)
    Wol Euler: diff'rent strokes, and all that :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: It will e quite disruptive in group setting as I may type and delete many times before decide to say somethig here. More comfortable not makng noises constantly in groups for my sake really.
    Wol Euler: ah! but you can override the _noise_ separately. Just start the line wiht "/"
    Storm Nordwind: By that reasoning though Fortune, in real life one might prefer people not to move their mouths when speaking... and I'm not sure I could like that!
    Wol Euler: hello mick!
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Mick

    Mick is sad.

    Mickorod Renard: Hiya folks
    Mickorod Renard: bad news
    Storm Nordwind: oh?!
    Wol Euler: oh no, do tell?
    Mickorod Renard: manchester united have lost
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mick :)
    Wol Euler laughs
    Storm Nordwind: what have they lost?
    kenji Pookes: Is that a sports team?
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh ... sorry to hearit.
    Wol Euler lifts the corner of hte carpet. It's not here...
    Storm Nordwind: Can we find it for them?
    Fortune Crystal: Storm, I like your comment about not moving mouths . Would that be considered telepathy then?
    Mickorod Renard: yea,,its no laughing mtter
    kenji Pookes: What sport?
    Gaya Ethaniel: football
    Mickorod Renard: he he ,,sorry,,pls carry on
    Gaya Ethaniel: Does / also urn off the anmation?
    kenji Pookes: Really, I've never heard of that football team.
    Storm Nordwind: No Fortune, because you would still hear the sound
    Mickorod Renard: telepathy,,sounds interesting
    Gaya Ethaniel: gah t netbook keyboard is not good ... so many typos sorry
    Wol Euler: / yes it does :)
    Wol Euler: but not permanently
    Wol Euler: / so you can choose
    Storm Nordwind types /me at the start of the sentence and gets another effect
    Wol Euler: but also without typing or sound
    Storm Nordwind: Using / is good when preparing feedback in large conferences
    Mickorod Renard: I am lost,,whats the subject?
    Wol Euler: we're talking about the typing anim and sound, Mick; some people like it, others don't
    Fortune Crystal: Mickorod, I offered the turn of typing animation to Wol and storm and they said they prefer having it on and queried me as to my opinion. so that is the background
    Mickorod Renard: thankyou ;)
    Wol Euler smiles and shrugs. Some people like broccoli, others prefer spinach
    Mickorod Renard: yuk,,some niether
    Wol Euler: heheheheh
    kenji Pookes: some both
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok Iwill experiment :)
    Storm Nordwind runs from both
    Wol Euler: that is why Man U lost! not enough greens
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Fortune Crystal: lol

    Staggeringly boring.

    kenji Pookes: By football do you mean soccer?
    Mickorod Renard: yes ken
    kenji Pookes: I have a question
    Storm Nordwind: By football, kenji, we mean football, not that American game of similar name where the ball rarely touches a foot! ;^)
    Fortune Crystal: great kenji
    kenji Pookes: I mean this quite seriously. What is the attraction of soccer? I have watched some games and find it staggeringly boring. A bunch of guys running around a field who seem almost incapable of putting the ball in the enormous net at either end.
    Mickorod Renard: I think its more to do with tribal issues
    kenji Pookes: I see. What tribes?
    Storm Nordwind: Due you mean intrinsically? Or in comparison to something else?
    kenji Pookes: not sure I get your drift
    Storm Nordwind: Well are you asking about the attraction of team sports in general, or football as compared to say volleyball?
    kenji Pookes: No soccer in particualr. I am a fan of team sports--baseball in particular. So I understand the attraction there. I simply don't get soccer.
    Storm Nordwind: You like small set pieces then. Football is free flowing
    kenji Pookes: Hmm, I don't get it. What is small set piece about baseball?
    Storm Nordwind: It takes place in small installments
    Wol Euler: perhaps you haven't watched it attentively? Have you been to a stadium, or sat with friends in front of a TV, who could explain it and commment as the game progressed?
    kenji Pookes: I have tried to watch it attentively and have been to a game at a stadium, but it didn't make much sense to me.
    kenji Pookes: I dont think, btw, that baseball occurs in small installments.
    Storm Nordwind: It doesn't. There are gaps beween every pich surely?
    kenji Pookes: Huh?
    Storm Nordwind: doesn't?
    Storm Nordwind has PC lag
    kenji Pookes: No, it doesnt . The virtually always in play--it just appears as though it is happening in short installments.
    Mickorod Renard: sometimes the gme does lack in the ways you describe,,but often,,as a supporter in an important international game,it comes down to national support and suchlike
    kenji Pookes: Perhaps I can rephrase this by explaning what I find intersting in baseball.
    Fortune Crystal: Kenji, you said football/soccer doesn't make much sense to you. Do you usually apply other people's opinion/consensus when defining what makes sense to you? you could be absolutely right, that is makes no sense :-) and the others could be right, that it does make sense. Just a thought
    Storm Nordwind disagrees with kenji on the always in play idea. I believe you can section it through at many points and divide off these set pieces in one of only a few limited permutations
    kenji Pookes: When I got to a baseball game, I leave my watch at home. Time in the ordinary sense is completely suspended in a baseball game. There is no time limit in terms of hours or minutes and the measure of the flow of time is not minutes
    kenji Pookes: but is in strikes, outs, and innings.
    kenji Pookes: Fortune, I didn't understand your question. I'm not sure how my lack of understanding of soccer is related to the opinions of other people.
    Storm Nordwind: You measure your time with granularity - just a different graininess. Withfootbal you get lost in the flow
    Fortune Crystal: are you saying the "time" element is important for thinks to make sense Kenji? Just curious, I like this element of time that you have introduced
    Mickorod Renard: having a time limit is also an important part in the suspense of football
    kenji Pookes: Interesting. I am not saying that time is important for things to make sense. I am saying that normal time is suspended in baseball. Cricket may be similar, I don't know the game well enough.
    Wol Euler: soccer is like watching waves on the beach, flowing back and forth
    Wol Euler: baseball is quite static. only one man ever moves
    kenji Pookes: Actually, having no time limit is part of the suspense of baseball.
    kenji Pookes: Thanks, Wol, that is making some sense to me.
    kenji Pookes: No, no no! It is not static at all. When the pitcher throws all of the players on the field are in motion
    Storm Nordwind: Usually before the pitch
    kenji Pookes: But even before the tpich, if there is a man on base, there is constant attention paid to his movements. I agree that there are lulls, but the runner can actually go at any time.
    Mickorod Renard: although I have played rounders,,sim in some ways to baseball,,i am not an avid follower or expert,so i guess i see baseball like you see soccer Ken

    The number theory of sports.

    Storm Nordwind sees the difference as similar to reals and integers, football play being real and baseball play being integer
    kenji Pookes: I dn't quite get that Storm.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Nice to see you all, good nigh/day :)
    kenji Pookes: Bye
    Mickorod Renard: nite Gaya
    Mickorod Renard: is it dreams now or Stims class?
    Wol Euler: ah, missed her
    Storm Nordwind: reals and integers... mathematical and computing terms. The complexity of integers comes from large combinations of them. The complexity of reals is intrinsic

    For certain values of "real" :-)

    Storm Nordwind: Tomorrow Mick
    Wol Euler: kira team for some of us...
    Mickorod Renard: thanks
    kenji Pookes: Then I really don't get it.
    Storm Nordwind: You associate it, perhaps, with my being here!
    Storm Nordwind: Complexity has many faces
    Storm Nordwind: There is the complexity of something being able to take an infinite number of values
    Wol Euler smiles. What a fascinating analogy.
    Storm Nordwind: And there is the complexity of many things being able to take a limited number of values in combination
    kenji Pookes: With baseball you have a simple set of rules that generates extremely complex situations.
    Storm Nordwind: Exactly so
    Wol Euler: I must move on, dear friends. Enjoy the evening.
    kenji Pookes: Bye
    Storm Nordwind: WHo has claims the log Wol?
    Mickorod Renard: bye Wol,,I must go too
    kenji Pookes: Gee, I hope the jock talk isn't scaring off people...
    Mickorod Renard: not me
    Wol Euler: I have done, I'll post it
    Fortune Crystal: Nice meeting you all!
    Storm Nordwind: Thanks!
    kenji Pookes: Nice to talk with you.
    Storm Nordwind: No they often go after an hour!
    Mickorod Renard: yea,,bye everyone
    Storm Nordwind: Bye Mick
    Mickorod Renard: bye Storm, Ken
    kenji Pookes: bye

    The session splits, leaving Storm and Kenji to wrestle out their theories.

    kenji Pookes: And then there were two
    Storm Nordwind: So in football you have an infinite sliding scale of nuances, much more so than in many games
    Storm Nordwind: Very different from American football
    kenji Pookes: But in baseball you have that infinite sliding scale of nuances in the (psychological) battle between pitcher and batter. I agree that both are very different from american football.
    kenji Pookes: which is boring
    Storm Nordwind: hehe!
    Storm Nordwind: Yes there is that battle
    Storm Nordwind: And that can be fun
    Storm Nordwind: But it is just two people
    Storm Nordwind: And the football match has 22
    kenji Pookes: Ah, but it's really not just two people. The pitcher and catcher are working together to defeat the batter. The players in the field are moving around to anticipate the action of the batter. It is 1 against 9.
    kenji Pookes: And then within that there is another battle of 1 against 1.
    Storm Nordwind: So, in your opinion, the same cannot be said of American football. No psychological battles there?
    kenji Pookes: There are psychological battles (I've played American football), but there is a lack of subtlety. Baseball is subtle.
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Storm Nordwind: I see

    Another fine analogy.

    kenji Pookes: Football is like war, baseball is like chess
    Storm Nordwind: I was just about to make the same analogy
    kenji Pookes: What I've never understood is where soccer fits in that. It seems more like basketball to me than aything else.
    Storm Nordwind: Though, to carry the anaolgy further, you can walk away from a chess game between moves and think at liesure (unless you're playing with clocks)
    kenji Pookes: That is something you can't do in baseball. There is no leisure time.
    Storm Nordwind: Basketball lacks the subtlety too, IMHO
    kenji Pookes: agreed
    kenji Pookes: For me, baseball is aesthetically beautiful
    kenji Pookes: stunning, actually
    Storm Nordwind: It is something I used to watch regularly as a child. Not so now. I don't attend sproting events anymore, and I only ever watch sport on TV - someone else TV if ever, as I don't have a TV! :)
    kenji Pookes: Ugh. I couldn't be happy without ESPN. I also go to many games. Actually, my son is a ball player, so I spend most of my free time watching baseball.
    Storm Nordwind: What is ESPN?
    kenji Pookes: I don't know wht it stands for, but it is the largest cable sports network in the world most likely.
    kenji Pookes: The CNN of sports.
    Storm Nordwind: That bad??? Surely not!
    kenji Pookes: Their reporting is a lot better than CNN, actually.
    kenji Pookes: I also watch the MLB channel on cable.
    Storm Nordwind: That would not be hard
    Storm Nordwind: And MLB is?
    kenji Pookes: Major League Baseball.
    kenji Pookes: Where are you from?
    Storm Nordwind: I am from the UK. Though I am emigrating soon.
    kenji Pookes: Where to?
    Storm Nordwind: The US

    Another good question.

    kenji Pookes: Now why would you want to do that?
    Storm Nordwind: To get married
    kenji Pookes: Hmm. I'm not sure it's worth it.
    Storm Nordwind: Why do you say that?
    kenji Pookes: This can be a very annoying place.
    Storm Nordwind: There are places on earth that don't have that property?
    kenji Pookes: True enough, but somehow the US seems to be good at it. Also, if you actually become an American citizen you can enjoy the pleasure of having the rest of the world hate you.
    Storm Nordwind: This is true :)
    kenji Pookes: Actually, it was really unpleasant being an American during the Bush admin. I'd travel overseas and people would ask, "what is the matter with your country?"
    kenji Pookes: Since I didn't vote for the moron, I didn't have a good answer.
    Storm Nordwind: I agree. The US has become a cool place to be again since then
    kenji Pookes: That's interesting. how fickle
    Storm Nordwind: No not really
    Storm Nordwind: We knew where the problem lay
    Storm Nordwind: The problem has gone - even though its effects persist
    kenji Pookes: Don't think just because we elected Obama (thank goodness) that theotehr side has somehow gone away. The conservative element is very strong in the US and it will rebound.
    Storm Nordwind: Perhaps
    Storm Nordwind: There are always cycles
    Storm Nordwind: But maybe there will be a trend now

    Another fine typo. Military might and brainwashing.

    Storm Nordwind: glocalisation has that effect
    Storm Nordwind: *b
    kenji Pookes: US history is a swiniging pendulum back and forth between more liberal and more conservative
    Storm Nordwind: And not really very liberal at that!
    kenji Pookes: I like glocalization, actually. "Globalization" is just a mask for moderanization theory, which has been largely refuted. In any case, the US is quite capable of extreme isolationism.
    Storm Nordwind: yes we all know that!
    Storm Nordwind: But midern communications mean that the effect is being eroded
    kenji Pookes: PErhaps. I hope so, but am not convinced.
    Storm Nordwind: It will take time
    Storm Nordwind: During which time there will be reflection and recrimination and a lot of growing up and dying away.
    kenji Pookes: Don't forget that the US is an empire, perhaps the largest in history. It will defend its imperial interests despite the current political direction.
    Storm Nordwind shrugs
    Storm Nordwind: Most of Europe has been there
    Storm Nordwind: Modern communications is a huge leveller
    kenji Pookes: I don't really think that Europe has been where the US is right now.
    kenji Pookes: And I'm unconvinced that mass communication is a great leveler. IT can also be a means for mass brainwashing.
    Storm Nordwind: Sure. the effect is largely the same because of the diversity of sources of brainwash!
    kenji Pookes: Perhaps, but given enough power, a single force can brainwash the entire population of the planet (well, not all of it, but a large percentage). And the US has that type of power.
    Storm Nordwind: No it doesn't. It just likes to think so! :)
    kenji Pookes: How many times can the US destroy the entire planet by itself?
    Storm Nordwind: The UK can do that even now. China can do it. India will be able to soon.
    Storm Nordwind: Once is enough! :)
    kenji Pookes: The UK does not have the arsenal to destry the entire planet. I agree that once is enough, but the US can do it about 27 times. What does the UK spend on the military annually?
    Storm Nordwind: I thought you were talking about ideas and brainwashing
    kenji Pookes: But ideas can be leveraged with raw military might
    Storm Nordwind: Explain that to me
    kenji Pookes: The US has the capicty to force its allies to do many things simply because it has the military power to do so. Not that the US will attack, but it can withdraw its capacity to support other nations--that alone is a major problem for many. Japan is a good example.
    kenji Pookes: THe UK spends about 70 billion dollars on the military as of 2009. That's a lot for a relatively small country.
    Storm Nordwind is not at all convinced of that, despite the US's predilection for meddling in others' affairs. Nations are made of people, and people find ways - especially now - of diverting the punch, rolling with it, and doing what they want
    Storm Nordwind is not much interested in military spending
    kenji Pookes: You should be.
    Storm Nordwind: Why?
    kenji Pookes: What do you think the US spends on the military?
    Storm Nordwind thinks the word "should" should be removed from the dictionary! ;)
    kenji Pookes: huh?
    Storm Nordwind: "should" is prescriptive
    kenji Pookes: OK, but you didnt answer my question. CAn you take a stab at what your future home spends on the military?
    Storm Nordwind: Oh I see. Now I understand your question
    Storm Nordwind: I have no idea
    kenji Pookes: 2009 budget = 650 billion dollars
    Storm Nordwind: So?
    kenji Pookes: Those will be YOUR tax dollars
    Storm Nordwind: Sure
    Storm Nordwind: I will be able to vote too
    kenji Pookes: You will be paying to support an enormous empire. Will you be an American citizen when you arive?
    Storm Nordwind: in time
    kenji Pookes: Then until that time comes (and I believe it will be 7 years), you will have no say at all in how your tax dollars are spents. To quote a phrase from my country's history, "no taxation without representation"
    Storm Nordwind: Sure. It is the same anywhere
    Storm Nordwind: My fiancee would find the same
    kenji Pookes: No it really isn't. Because anywhere is not the most powerful empire in teh world spending ten times what other countries are spending on military force
    kenji Pookes: BTW, the UK is a major military spender (4th in the world)
    Storm Nordwind: You are measuring power only by military might
    kenji Pookes: not really, it is one measure. A very important one because the US has shown a willingness to use that power to get what it wants
    Storm Nordwind: What it thinks it wants, sure, and only in limited ways

    Naive is as naive does, Momma always said.

    kenji Pookes: I'm not tring to sour your new home; I love the US and am proud of many things here. But I have had the feeling that Europe is a bit naive about the election of Obama. The hawks didn't go anywhere.
    kenji Pookes: Storm, how old are you?
    Storm Nordwind: Naive is an interesting comment coming from an American! Many Europeans would compare themselves to Americans and come to quite the reverse conclusion!
    Storm Nordwind: I am 56. And you?
    kenji Pookes: I know that, but I think my observation is accurate.
    kenji Pookes: I'm 47. So we both lived throgh Vietnam.
    kenji Pookes: In any case, what part of the US will you come to?
    Storm Nordwind: Colorado
    kenji Pookes: Nice area. Rather dry, but very beautiful.
    Storm Nordwind: high and dry
    kenji Pookes: Yes. You may find yourself short of breath for a while. I did when I was there.
    Storm Nordwind: A different beauty to the UK
    kenji Pookes: Indeed.
    Storm Nordwind: I'll take it easy for a couple of months
    kenji Pookes: Plus they will all think you talk funny.
    Storm Nordwind: That, it seems, has been a very distinct advantage so far!
    kenji Pookes: Actually, AMericans seem to find the English accent quite appealing.
    Storm Nordwind: Indeed they seem to
    kenji Pookes: Not sure why.
    Storm Nordwind: Well I shall simply capitalise on it! :)
    kenji Pookes: That's capitalize. You are going to need to learn to spell correctly...
    Storm Nordwind: I'm psychic too, and knew you were going to say that! :)
    kenji Pookes: Not surprising. You should visit the South. It's interesting and very different from Colorado. Texas, where I live, is also quite different.
    Storm Nordwind: In time. I like to explore. I have visited as many states as my betrothed anyway
    kenji Pookes: I've got to run now. Got to take my son to a baseball practice. Congrats on the future marriage, BTW
    Storm Nordwind: Thanks you. Bye for now!
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