2009.09.17 19:00 - Participating in society

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Sylectra.

    doug Sosa: h corvi
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hi, Doug
    doug Sosa: i am concerned. attendance has been very low. sp from those on the retreat. what's up?
    doug Sosa: sp= especially
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I don't know?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: maybe travel?
    Sylectra Darwin: Corvi and Doug :)
    doug Sosa: hi.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Syl!
    Sylectra Darwin: Hi :)
    Sylectra Darwin: I must make my apologies - I was supposed to lead this meeting but I am completely worn out from a very trying day.
    Sylectra Darwin: ThreeDee, you're looking well.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.."oh...Three!"
    Threedee Shepherd: thank you
    Sylectra Darwin: I do hope you all can carry on without me. Hi Steven.
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Sylectra, doug, three and corvi
    doug Sosa: :)
    Sylectra Darwin: Rather than falling asleep while in the meeting I'll say my goodnights now.
    Sylectra Darwin: You all take good care.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye..you too!
    stevenaia Michinaga: enjoy your sellp corvi
    stevenaia Michinaga: sleep
    doug Sosa: so ahassup?
    doug Sosa: whats up?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks
    Threedee Shepherd: I have been on the listening fringes of a conversation elsewhere of whether a person has obligations to society.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: do we have obligations to society?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks..I say we don't.
    Threedee Shepherd: That is the question
    stevenaia Michinaga: define society
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but it's more fun to pretend we do.
    doug Sosa: i like that.
    Threedee Shepherd: The humanity I live with, in circles as wide as you care to consider
    stevenaia Michinaga: isn;t that why society has jails, for those who think they don;t?
    stevenaia Michinaga: or isolated islands
    Corvuscorva Nightfire opens her eyes wide..
    Threedee Shepherd: No jails are for those who actively transcend the laws.
    doug Sosa: actually many in jail have small societies to which they are quite loyal.
    doug Sosa: gangs are high affiliation.
    Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm, doug
    doug Sosa: any idea how i get rid of my tea?
    Threedee Shepherd: OK, specifically, do I have a responsibility to try to make the world a better place
    stevenaia Michinaga: wonders if that is up to individual, three
    Threedee Shepherd: That is the question, yes
    stevenaia Michinaga: although I personally belive I am
    doug Sosa: those who feel thye do tend to hang out together.
    doug Sosa: then children..
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think I'm thinking about things like "what does I mean, what does "responsibility" mean, what does "better place?" mean.
    doug Sosa: feeling like a part of the unfolding history of a culture and species..
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but in the end...if I act to make the world a better place, it's a better place for me to live in...anyway.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and then a better place for the people I love to live in...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and then a better place, maybe, hopefully, for everybody else?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: or maybe not
    Threedee Shepherd: Pragmatically this I is a body that could sit home watching television or go to a meeting to help preserve watersheds
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles, nods
    doug Sosa: yes, but success is vague and much depends on the depth of heart, experience, ..
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: skill
    doug Sosa: yes skill.
    stevenaia Michinaga: I think simply by participating in the workings of socitey, you contribute to making it a better place
    stevenaia Michinaga: like going to that meeting
    doug Sosa: Are there not different ways? Stealing tires and selling them is participating... selling financial derivaties is participating... but..
    stevenaia Michinaga: instead of staying home under a blanket
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: well..is it really better if I go to that meeting? Maybe if someone who has more skill goes to lead it in my stead, that would be better.
    doug Sosa: what is your experience recently of the evolution of our little community here?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hmm...
    Threedee Shepherd: I would say Mother Theresa believed it was her DUTY as a human, to do the kind of work she did, not a Choice.
    stevenaia Michinaga: although there has been some interation, more than before for some, it has only begin to transform itself, I think that will take time, but I the beginnings of greater interaction
    Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks..I kinda think she had a passion for it.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: which isn't exactly the same thing?
    stevenaia Michinaga: *interaction
    doug Sosa: well, she saw herself as part of a christian mission..
    stevenaia Michinaga: so she was "under orders" to participate?
    doug Sosa: well, almost.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks..she certainly didn't act like someone who was under orders.
    stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps she was extraordinarilly good at it
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: There is a catholic notion that one does stuff out of love for God and his creation.
    doug Sosa: she took vows to serve.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: not because God says do it..but because when one loves..one just wants to do stuff.
    stevenaia Michinaga: nods
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: she was agnostic..I read once.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but that might not preclude loving.
    stevenaia Michinaga: wonders if it pleased her doing these things if that was a sin (checks rule book)
    doug Sosa: so how do i get rid of my tea cup?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hmmm...can you click on it and find the wheel?
    stevenaia Michinaga: right click on it and select detach
    doug Sosa: ah, so simple! thanks.
    doug Sosa: if i want it back..?
    stevenaia Michinaga: wear it (from your inventory)
    doug Sosa: not seeing it in inventory. clothing, body parts, jestures?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: objects
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: or type teacup
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and it might show up
    stevenaia Michinaga: in the search box
    doug Sosa: :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: in answer to the question..I guess I think it's not exactly obligation to help and serve
    stevenaia Michinaga: there can be joy in it
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but that I'm lucky when I'm called to want to.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: even if it's difficult.
    stevenaia Michinaga: love seems to help with that
    doug Sosa: I think it is raher wired into us to feel good when we help. some people are blocked fromthat experience, or its just doesn't touchthem.
    Threedee Shepherd: Actually Doug, it is wired in
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and if it's needed and I'm not called but do it anyway...It will help me more than it helps anyone else.
    stevenaia Michinaga: brb, cat need attension
    Threedee Shepherd: A fact: Some people feel guilty if they are not actively "trying to make the world a better place" (thing peace, food, shelter, etc.)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: yeah...
    doug Sosa: we have been a successful species, and we are runnign out of room. we are up gainst limits. tat means changingthe wya society functions, values and institutions and indivudaulbehavior. can we do it? Shoud we feel an obligation?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: well..for me...I want the world to keep on being a good world for humans to live in...cause I love peple younger than me.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: which is a pretty selfish reason..but...there ya go.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: besides..I kinda love trees and stuff
    Threedee Shepherd: want to implies choice, not coersion
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..
    doug Sosa: beautiful. and I do need to go. blessings..
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, doug.
    Threedee Shepherd: bye doug
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye doug
    stevenaia Michinaga: Three, you were a treacher, were you compelled to give that gift to society?
    Threedee Shepherd: no
    stevenaia Michinaga: assumes you enjoyed it even though the residual was it served society
    stevenaia Michinaga: noce bonus
    stevenaia Michinaga: nice
    Threedee Shepherd: yes
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: you know a reason I like being useful when I'm useful? it's kinda stupid...but...sometimes it just all feels like a puzzle piece that I found the right spot for..
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: that feeling of satisfaction when I'm skillful or lucky.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and see someone benefit by it.
    Threedee Shepherd: Confucious 1.1 - To learn something and to be able to apply it at the right time, Is that not a Joy?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: yessssss!!!!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: exactly.
    stevenaia Michinaga: just realized I have a "community" tab on my website that says....... believes you cannot simply stand by and expect a community to thrive without being involved. Participation is the fuel that runs communities.
    stevenaia Michinaga: just a thought
    Threedee Shepherd: So, are you a cheater or a worthless hanger on if you benefit from the community and do nothing to help it run?
    stevenaia Michinaga: no, it jsut doesn;t run as well
    stevenaia Michinaga: but I suspect each view is a matter of perspective
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh..that's a whole different set of questions, I think...about contracts. A society, or community has contracts, some written, some implied, some not shared by all people in the group...so some might think that the contract says" ya gotta help" and some think it says "you gotta be present"
    Threedee Shepherd: some deny the contract, they are called radical republicans, did I say thqat ;>
    Corvuscorva Nightfire dies laughing
    stevenaia Michinaga: oh no, thay wrote the contract with America, three
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: "I am out for myself, and everybody else better get out of the way?" "that contract?"
    Threedee Shepherd: Actually I think the wrote a contract ON America
    stevenaia Michinaga: lol
    Corvuscorva Nightfire guffaws.
    stevenaia Michinaga: ducks
    Threedee Shepherd: ducks, where?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire snickers and holds on to his mane..."don't eat 'em"
    stevenaia Michinaga: lol
    Threedee Shepherd: Ducks and Snickers Bars, too WOW
    Corvuscorva Nightfire whaps you lightly with a pillow.
    Threedee Shepherd: There was a radio commedian in 30s-40s who had the catch line "Wanna Buy A Duck" for absolutely no reason other than absurdity
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: that works.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it's absurd
    stevenaia Michinaga: Groucho?
    Threedee Shepherd: Charley Penner
    stevenaia Michinaga: looks to see if he has a wiki page
    Threedee Shepherd: Sorry, JOE Penner
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Penner
    Threedee Shepherd: Let me reverse my original question: Would you (do you) feel bad if you do not "help" society make the world better?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I don't know.
    Threedee Shepherd: liar
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I like the things I do to participate.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire luahgs
    stevenaia Michinaga: I think I would question my worthyness
    stevenaia Michinaga: put on earth to help
    Threedee Shepherd: exactly, Steve. Where did we "learn" that piece of baggage?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: well..I guess I do feel bad if I say I'm gonna...or someone wants something I can't do.
    stevenaia Michinaga: by how much fun it is
    stevenaia Michinaga: a great teacher
    stevenaia Michinaga: (fun is)
    Threedee Shepherd: Perhaps we can compromist and say "should" instead of "must"
    Threedee Shepherd: Oh that is a great type: Compromist: The fog that decends over everyone in the meeting that hides the awful truth that they did not get their way.
    Threedee Shepherd: typo
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hehehehheheh
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: so...I'm still not sure that my personal guilt is over not being helpful to society.
    stevenaia Michinaga: why do you think you are not helpful?
    Threedee Shepherd: Ahh, a dirrerent path, say more
    stevenaia Michinaga: and the guilt, well that;s from your mother, ofcourse, not socety
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
    Threedee Shepherd: my grandmother, actually :D
    stevenaia Michinaga: close enough
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: scritches Three's ears.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: so...for me...maybe it's about disappointing people
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I don't like to.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I feel guilty
    stevenaia Michinaga: for me it's jsut moving things along that one person can;t do but a group can
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but the larger society..I just want it to do what I want...and put my oar in to drive it, sometimes.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'm pretty sure that my doing helpful stuff is a selfish thing.
    stevenaia Michinaga: in what way?
    stevenaia Michinaga: not doing is selfish
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: see above..I want the boat to steer in a way that I like.
    Threedee Shepherd: so you are guilty of slacking if you don't and guilty of selfishness if you do. Not a pretty position to be stuck in, really
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs..this is true.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I get to be guilty either way.
    stevenaia Michinaga: welcome to Corvi's WOrld
    Corvuscorva Nightfire ducks
    stevenaia Michinaga: quack
    stevenaia Michinaga: I want to join that group
    Threedee Shepherd: Well, here is a hint at the way out: "guilty" is a verdict, not a feeling.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods...thinks about this.
    stevenaia Michinaga: if you are guilty of being guilty, is that like a double negative and you really aren;t guilty?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire whaps you with the pillow and then sits on it.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: so..if it's not a feeling..well, what is that tightness in the chest, when one feels..uh...guilty?
    Threedee Shepherd: Well in The aboriginal Australian language a double mean "more" or "many" (Wagga means crow, Wagga Wagga means many crows), so guilty guilty...
    Threedee Shepherd: fear
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ohhhh
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: so you recieve the verdict and feel fear.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods..
    Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: makes sense.
    stevenaia Michinaga: brb, have to cover kougle and pout it in the fridge
    Threedee Shepherd: you even pronounce the verdict yourself
    stevenaia Michinaga: put
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: yeah
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: a biased judge.
    Threedee Shepherd: Hey Steve, can I come for dinner, I love kuggle
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: me too.
    Threedee Shepherd: You think you might give yourself the benefit of the doubt
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles fondly at Three. Maybe.
    stevenaia Michinaga: my mother-in-law would love that
    stevenaia Michinaga: come on over
    stevenaia Michinaga: Clinton is on Jon Stewert
    stevenaia Michinaga: got distracted
    Threedee Shepherd: Where, on his head, his back....
    stevenaia Michinaga: that to
    stevenaia Michinaga: well I think it;s time to go
    Threedee Shepherd: Agreed, who can we coerce to take the log?
    stevenaia Michinaga: seels the spiral downward
    stevenaia Michinaga: Corvi too it
    stevenaia Michinaga: took
    Threedee Shepherd: ok, out of guilt, I suppose ;>
    stevenaia Michinaga: bless her community contirbuting soul
    stevenaia Michinaga: that too
    stevenaia Michinaga: lsughs
    Corvuscorva Nightfire hugs ya'll
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: g'night you.
    stevenaia Michinaga: see ya
    Threedee Shepherd: g'nite
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