10-12 Now "here" this

 Under Construction

2010.02.10 01:00 - 'What are we trying to do again?'
../../../Chat_Logs/2010/02/2010.02.10_07%3a00_-_How_Do_I_Present%3f

2010.02.10 07:00 - How Do I Present?
../../../Chat_Logs/2010/02/2010.02.10_13%3a00_-_PaB_As_A_Lab

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal, who was happily joined by SophiaSharon and Storm for this morning's session. :)

As a thousand words can be conveyed with one picture, a simple story can reveal a thousand conceptual angles... in a flash. :)

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sharon :) Morning!
SophiaSharon Larnia: Good Morning!
SophiaSharon Larnia: how are you?
Eliza Madrigal: Another round of storms for you I think... hope all is well
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, great, thanks!
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes I'm in a hotel, now bored!
Eliza Madrigal looks through inventory for entertainment
SophiaSharon Larnia: but good :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: hahaha
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Waiting... in lines and layovers and snowstorms, there is maybe a chance to get still...
SophiaSharon Larnia: oh yes,youre right
Eliza Madrigal: There is so much of that time, that if we can learn to work with it, even enjoy it... well, seems good for integrating all we explore around here :)
Eliza Madrigal: I tell myself this in traffic
Eliza Madrigal: hah
SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
SophiaSharon Larnia: its very easy to forget in traffic!
SophiaSharon Larnia: (sorry I'm on a slow connection)
Eliza Madrigal: YES! I have a terrible habit, too, of just turning on the radio and switching channels incessantly...
Eliza Madrigal: (I'm actually enjoying lag sometimes here... causing me to slow down typing)
SophiaSharon Larnia: how many ways can the mind be entertained at once
Eliza Madrigal: yes exactly!
SophiaSharon Larnia: how many pictures/walls
Eliza Madrigal: and where do we go while our mind is doing all those things
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes!
Eliza Madrigal: That seems how we bury ourselves

Sharon shares what she is currently reading:

SophiaSharon Larnia: I'm reading a book called Knowledge and Liberation by Anne Klein
Eliza Madrigal: Oh?
SophiaSharon Larnia: who states the case for knowledge/academic pursuits for attaining enlightenment
SophiaSharon Larnia: it is, like everything about this topic, rather dense :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) but interesting...
Eliza Madrigal: lively
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Storm!
SophiaSharon Larnia: and is buddhist in orientation, but can be applied to non-buddhist streams of thought as well

Storm arrives...

Storm Nordwind: Good morning both :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Storm! I'm on a slow internet connection
Storm Nordwind remember his days on one of those :-/
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Storm Nordwind: Please don't let me disprupt or interrupt!
Storm Nordwind: (or even spell correctly this morning!)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: We were just beginning to talk about a book Sharon is reading...
SophiaSharon Larnia: :) part of the difficulty reading books like this, is I have so much background work to do, before I understand exactly what the author is saying
Eliza Madrigal: Many people I think, when they begin devling into spirituality, tend to put aside everything 'else'...
SophiaSharon Larnia: have you read any of Anne C. Klein books Storm?
Storm Nordwind: Looks quite academic
Eliza Madrigal: and maybe that is fine for a while, but one sign of a vibrant spiritual life seems to me, integration....
Storm Nordwind: I don't think I have Sharon
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes I tend to do that Eliza
SophiaSharon Larnia: read and narrow down the thoughts so to speak
Eliza Madrigal nods

--BELL--

Sharon frames the discussion...

SophiaSharon Larnia: Its called Knowledge and Liberation, stating that conceptual thought is capable of leading to a transformative experience.... I often think talking about things forever doesn't clarify thought, and the author states the case that its integral for some
SophiaSharon Larnia: especially while listening to many people
Storm Nordwind: Conceptual thought can be useful, as a step on the way perhaps, but I don't think it can give you the experience that is central to Buddhist practice
Storm Nordwind: Just my opinion of course! :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hm, mental flexibility can't hurt.. and the kind of humility that comes from continually running up against one's limitations, etc. It must be the attitude toward it really... not just with 'having' knowledge to wear as a kind of badge...
Storm Nordwind nods
Eliza Madrigal: and 'hold one's own'...
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
Eliza Madrigal: buddhism is kind of the opposite of trying to measure up/hold one's own?
Eliza Madrigal: (realizes any time she says something like 'buddhism is' she's way off)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)

Getting comfortable with paradoxal nature ...

Storm Nordwind: Buddhism is interesting in that people are encouraged to think for themselves, but in the end, for the experience of bliss and emptiness, conceptual thought may be rather limiting. A nice paradox that I enjoy being part of!
Eliza Madrigal nods enthusiastically
Storm Nordwind: I was looking at the reviews for her (Klein's) Dzogchen book a minute ago. Interesting review comment: "Good root text but overly philosophical/difficult commentary"
SophiaSharon Larnia: she says that realizing emptiness is not divorcing yourself from conceptual understanding, but gaining a type of explicit understanding
Eliza Madrigal: I was reading this morning about the idea of unity of religions... that the trappings of tradition are fine but unimportant once the essence is in play... so conceptions seems same?
SophiaSharon Larnia: it unlocks the ordinary dualistic patterning of conceptual thought
Storm Nordwind: There are many levels of realizing emptiness. The first step certainly does use conceptual understanding. After that however... :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes its dense Storm
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: I'm truthfully not even looking for something in a buddhist sense, just in general
Eliza Madrigal nods

Storm gives an overview ...

Storm Nordwind: As I understand it (and I don't claim exclusive knowledge here!), on the two Paths of Accumulation and Preparation, people need to use Inferential cognizers to realize emptiness. Later, on the Path of Seeing and beyond, there is a direct realization by a non-conceptual mind.
Eliza Madrigal: It is far more fun to have conceptual conversations and such when things are open.... when there isn't that sense of protecting 'one's own view' etc but really seeing what the play reveals...

Sharon asks a wonderful question...

SophiaSharon Larnia: are there ever times when youve bypassed that and saw something, 'in a flash', a glimpse?
Eliza Madrigal: yes, coming to playasbeing :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: i think theres some preparation for that
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Eliza :)
Storm Nordwind: There are two schools of thought: the sudden and gradual paths. I suspect they are not as mutually exclusive as some suggest! ;)
Eliza Madrigal: THEN you could see all the ways you'd been prepared
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: We were talking about this a little in the wok workshop too... about training in preliminaries...

My thought doesn't translate very well here. I was noticing the parallel between the way we practice in PlayasBeing: "Just Try/Just See", and the way that we've been discussing lojong in the workshop... that often what would more commonly be called 'practice' comes along with or after direct experience. Just to qualify. :)

Instinct, Intuition, Intellect...

SophiaSharon Larnia: the more I delve into concepts, the less I rely on instinct
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: Do you see that as good or bad Sharon?
Eliza Madrigal: that digging into/diving into practice (like pema says "just try"), then maybe the preliminaries are attractive and all in there ... so you aren't practicing to go from step1,2 ,3
Eliza Madrigal: anyway, just a side issue there :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: not a positive, forward motion thing, but not a bad thing. Like having to go to school.
Storm Nordwind: training in preliminaries is often cited as a preparation for Lojong practice
Eliza Madrigal: I guess it is all very personal, and there are times to come at things from various angles
Eliza Madrigal: instinct is a funny question though...
Eliza Madrigal: the difference between instinct and intuition...
Eliza Madrigal: and everything in between :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: Ive been questioning my instinct
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Storm Nordwind: What really is instinct? Or intuition for that matter? Is this the sum of the various non-rational, non-voiced, non-linear, non-verbalized thoughts we have?
Eliza Madrigal: Intuition would be that to me I think, Storm...
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, that, based on some knowledge obtained in the past, maybe
Storm Nordwind: Maybe there are many more than a single sources for those
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods

And well, especially dressed as a fairy, my turn is toward the whimsical... :)

Eliza Madrigal: If intuituion is 'open' then there it seems Being at play in one's life...
Eliza Madrigal: (please use your compassion to rearrange the sentence structure-hehe)
SophiaSharon Larnia: thats what I like to think!! Little gifts!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: little hellos
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Storm Nordwind: I sometimes wonder about that Eliza :) Not saying it's not true, but I know people like to ascribe the little things that play in one's life to their current favourite theory, deity, etc etc
SophiaSharon Larnia: true
Eliza Madrigal: Most of time, the hellos aren't what we would have figured out on our own...
Eliza Madrigal: and might not even be comfortable :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: like me being stuck in storms this week, wondering if its my karma for being glad i didnt get stuck before ;p
Storm Nordwind: But being pragmatic, I notice it anyway, and am simply grateful, without necessarily knowing how it works!
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Eliza Madrigal: haha, Sharon... yes it is difficult not to ask oneself those questions at times
SophiaSharon Larnia: :) Storm

Eliza Madrigal: I think a lot about 'directness' and immediacy of experience...
Eliza Madrigal: which seems to arise out of the confidence we've spoken about sometimes...
Eliza Madrigal: and that confidence of.. hm... intuition?
SophiaSharon Larnia: where does the confidence come from?
Storm Nordwind: Yes it's possible to gain confidence in one's intuition. But it does take time, I think.
Eliza Madrigal: So we plod along...
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Storm Nordwind: I trained myself in being sensitive to intuition around 30 years ago
Storm Nordwind: From that self-training came a lot of confidence
Eliza Madrigal: I have what seems a double edge sword in this regard. I can almost not function non-intuitively...
SophiaSharon Larnia: Ive always felt more intuitive than anything else, and relied on it heavily, so much so that some time again i thought it best to examine that
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Storm Nordwind: The key thing I found for me was being able to discriminate between intuition and anything else. That's what took the time.
SophiaSharon Larnia: some time ago*
SophiaSharon Larnia: anything else?

--BELL--

At our urging, Storm shares a story which uncrumples the picture of what we'd been discussing 'conceptually' just before. :)

Storm Nordwind remembers a wonderful contradictory encounter - intuition vs. intellect - with two psychologists at a Johari window workshop. But he's sure he's told that story before! ;)
SophiaSharon Larnia: hmm :))
Eliza Madrigal: Not to me:)
SophiaSharon Larnia: so the anything else you meant is intellect?
Storm Nordwind: No Sharon. I meant imaginings. memories, other non-intellectual impressions of all kinds
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
Eliza Madrigal: Is it a long story? Would you mind sharing it again?
Storm Nordwind: Short story. I don't mind if you don't! :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes thats what I mean by examining, seeing what part they play in intuition
SophiaSharon Larnia: please?
Eliza Madrigal: Would like that!
Storm Nordwind: OK... :)
Storm Nordwind grins
Eliza Madrigal: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: :))

The log title arrives ...

Storm Nordwind: I was doing a course in bereavement counseling
Storm Nordwind: and we had a morning's workshop on the Johari Window
Storm Nordwind: I'll not go into that...
Storm Nordwind: but there's surely a Wikipedia article on it somewhere! :)
Storm Nordwind: Anyway, there were about 20 of us in the workshop
Storm Nordwind: And the idea was that we had to interview each other in pairs
Storm Nordwind: (So it took all morning, because all pair combinations had to be done in the whole group!)
Eliza Madrigal: oh my
Storm Nordwind: You were supposed to say to each person "How do I present?"
Storm Nordwind: And they were to give you as honest and objective answers as they could
Storm Nordwind: Their impressions etc
Storm Nordwind: about how you came over to them
Eliza Madrigal: eek, sounds a bit like speed dating :)
Storm Nordwind: Haha!!
SophiaSharon Larnia: sounds like it would hard to do :)
Storm Nordwind: You were supposed to plot their answers on a kind of quadrant graph
Storm Nordwind: and look for corroboration
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, interesting
Storm Nordwind: to get an overall picture
Storm Nordwind: Now, there were two professional psychologists in the group
Storm Nordwind: and when I looked at the graph I had created from people's answers to me
Storm Nordwind: I found that all but two sets of answers corroborated reasonably well
Storm Nordwind: and two were outliers
Storm Nordwind: and outliers in separate directions to each other
Storm Nordwind: They were the psychologists
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Storm Nordwind: I remember one psychologist saying to me...
Storm Nordwind: "Storm, you're obviously a very intuitive person... perhaps you should try being a little more intellectual to get some balance."
Storm Nordwind: And I remember the other psychologist saying to me...
Storm Nordwind: "Storm, you're obviously a very intellectual person... perhaps you should try being a little more intuitive to get some balance."
Storm Nordwind: !!!!
Eliza Madrigal: hahaha
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: haha objective
Eliza Madrigal: That's great!
Storm Nordwind: They couldn't see - in fact it was probably impossible in their trained mindset - that it was possible to be highly developed in both at the same time. And to be fully integrated.
SophiaSharon Larnia: does that experience make you think of the exercise as being not useful?
SophiaSharon Larnia: ahhh i see what you mean
Eliza Madrigal: My cheeks might pop off from smiling. Well worth taking the morning for the exercize... seems like a koan
Storm Nordwind: Apparantly they couldn't see that, but everyone else - who were not psychologists - did!
SophiaSharon Larnia: interesting, their training got in the way?
Eliza Madrigal: both were true... but they weren't 'allowed' to see that both were true
Storm Nordwind: So it seems, yes Sharon
Storm Nordwind: Yes Eliza!! :)
Eliza Madrigal: I love that, so glad you shared it
SophiaSharon Larnia: thank you :)
Storm Nordwind smiles humbly :)
Eliza Madrigal: We don't need to leave anything out
Eliza Madrigal: And another funny aspect is how others see us...
Eliza Madrigal: that it can be so drastically different from what we expect they see
Eliza Madrigal: Neat exercize, actually
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
Storm Nordwind: Yes. That's what the Johari Window is about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johari_window

--BELL--

My mind wanders a bit to times when information blind-to-me had been a factor to perceptions ...

Eliza Madrigal: When my son changed schools a few years ago, I noticed right away how deferential people were to me... how the teachers were so friendly and respectful.. the principal, etc. Later, I found out that because I like to read articles on memory and such, that he'd told everyone I was "someone important with the brain"... heheh... I learned a lot from that :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: i'll open that later, I'm afraid I'll crash :))
Storm Nordwind: That's a wonderful story too Eliza! Thank you for that :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: lol Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: :)))

:) Storm's mischief making side...

Storm Nordwind: I tried a similar thing deliberately once... as a bit of mischief I guess! :)
Storm Nordwind hesitates to tell that one
Eliza Madrigal: an experiment?
SophiaSharon Larnia: ha!
Eliza Madrigal: heheh
Storm Nordwind: I was working somewhere where there was a communal office fridge
Storm Nordwind: And people kept stealing my butter that I kept there
Storm Nordwind: So I capitalized on my reputation...
Storm Nordwind: and wrote on it in big letters...
Storm Nordwind: "Anyone who steals from this will be cursed."
Eliza Madrigal: Ack!
SophiaSharon Larnia: oh my!
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Storm Nordwind: No one ever stole from it again!
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Storm Nordwind: hehe!
SophiaSharon Larnia: i guess not hahaha
Eliza Madrigal: well, you captilalized on superstitions too...
Eliza Madrigal: wonder how many butter stealers sat there wrestling....
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Storm Nordwind: Well they knew I could, but they didn't know I wouldn't! ;)
SophiaSharon Larnia: haha Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: with themselves, with their larger paradigms...
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Eliza Madrigal: I like that in this johari window it has a square for 'blind spots'
Storm Nordwind: (Prior to that people just put their names on things, and those names were always ignored)
Eliza Madrigal: sigh, roommates :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Storm I know what thats like, and I think its hysterical
Storm Nordwind: Blind spot - what's known to others but not to oneself (or denied by oneself)
Eliza Madrigal: seems a place of potential, oddly :)
Eliza Madrigal: "the realm of the blindingly obvious"
SophiaSharon Larnia: ha!
Storm Nordwind: Well please excuse me, and thank you for the chat. I must go jump in the tub prior to going to the dentist this morning :-/
Eliza Madrigal: Ohh... um, enjoy?
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Eliza Madrigal: Have a great day, Storm. Thanks for coming :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Storm, talk to you later :))
Eliza Madrigal makes note to make her dentist appt
Storm Nordwind: I might not make any meetings in SL for the rest of the day!
SophiaSharon Larnia: aww
Eliza Madrigal: Silent day :)
Storm Nordwind: Namaste
SophiaSharon Larnia: namaste
Eliza Madrigal: Namaste' :)
Eliza Madrigal: What an interesting conversation...
Eliza Madrigal: with such practical applications !
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
SophiaSharon Larnia loves practical applications :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes :)))
Eliza Madrigal: Direct experience
SophiaSharon Larnia: I'm going to go too, for now
Eliza Madrigal: At least you have a book when stuck in the snow...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes! and internet access!! what a treat!
Eliza Madrigal: Yes, right!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: laughs
Eliza Madrigal: Glad you came this morning :) See you soon
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye for now

2010.02.10 13:00 - PaB As A Lab
../../../Chat_Logs/2010/02/2010.02.10_19%3a00_-_Talking_Stick

The Guardian for this meeting was No Self - Since Fefonz couldn't get in world. The comments are by Fefonz.

Liza Deischer: hi Wol
Wol Euler: hello liza!
Wol Euler: hallo bert
Liza Deischer: hi bert
Bertram Jacobus: hi ladies ! ... :-)
Liza Deischer: there are not many people who say that to me :-)
Bertram Jacobus: hehe. okay. you know - my bad english ... .O)
Wol Euler: heheheh
Bertram Jacobus: :-)
Bertram Jacobus: how are you today ? :-)
Wol Euler: struggling a bit, to be honest
Liza Deischer: how come?
Bertram Jacobus: struggle with something special ?
Wol Euler: hard to say. Unhappiness, feelings of futility
Wol Euler: stuck in a rut of my own making
Wol Euler: the usual :)
Bertram Jacobus: ah - youֲ´re not alone wol (!) ...
Bertram Jacobus: i know this
Liza Deischer: you call that usual :-)
Wol Euler: hold that thought, sorry, I have to step out for a moment :(
Bertram Jacobus: most may know - may be all ...
Liza Deischer: yes, probably, and it tells us something that we classify that as usual
Liza Deischer: while it refers to a deep feeling of unhappiness
Bertram Jacobus: hello fael and yaku ! ... :-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Liza Deischer: hi Yaku
Bertram Jacobus: and bleu :-)
Fael Illyar: hmm... I thought wol said something about coming to geek here.
Liza Deischer: she was around
Bleu Oleander: hi!
Liza Deischer: hi Fael, Bleu
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey bleu, welcome to the guardian group
Liza Deischer: she was coming back, she said
Bleu Oleander: thanks!
Liza Deischer: yes, welcome bleu (now feeling the need to spell the name right from now on :-))
Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t know if you already got one of these :)
Bleu Oleander: no i never did, ty!
Yakuzza Lethecus: but sometime´s if somebody says the magic words it´s usefull, wol gave it to me when i became a guardian :P
Bleu Oleander: thanks!
Fael Illyar: ah, looks like I need to go :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: haven´t seen the sillyness before that :)
Fael Illyar: Hi and bye :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye fael
Bleu Oleander: bye
Liza Deischer: bey fael
Liza Deischer: a little late
Bleu Oleander: how is the time workshop going Yaku?
Yakuzza Lethecus: It´s still a confusing book for me, but pema is a good moderator.
Bleu Oleander: it's rather confusing for me too
Bertram Jacobus: what is confusing about it ?
Bertram Jacobus: hello ara ... :-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: You should really join that workshop as well bleu since you read the book.
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey ara
Liza Deischer: hey ara
Yakuzza Lethecus: missed you at TSK
arabella Ella: Hiya
Bleu Oleander: i'll try ... the time is hard for me
arabella Ella: oh was TSK today? Oh noooo
Bleu Oleander: hi Ara
arabella Ella: Hiya Bleu welcome as a Guardian!
Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, it was 4 am for pema :)
Bleu Oleander: thanks Ara
arabella Ella: owwww poor Pema
Yakuzza Lethecus: since he´s in japan again
Bleu Oleander: harder for him!
arabella Ella: only tough though if you need to get up early for morning appointments or meetings
Liza Deischer: nice glasses ara
--BELL--
arabella Ella whispers ... thanks Liza!
Liza Deischer: i try to figure out who should be claiming the log
Liza Deischer: but I'm not handy in finding it :-)
arabella Ella: I think Wed is generally Fef but I have no idea if there were any changes
Liza Deischer: wb wol
Wol Euler: ty
Bleu Oleander: hi Wol
Wol Euler: hello bleu, welcome!
arabella Ella: Hiya Calvino Hi Wol
Bleu Oleander: ty!
Bleu Oleander: hi Cal
Calvino Rabeni: Helo Ara :)
Liza Deischer: hi cal
Bertram Jacobus: hi cal :-)
Bertram Jacobus: re wol :-)
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: whatever.
arabella Ella: Hey everyone we are so quiet here tonight ... any topics?
Calvino Rabeni: "Can we make conjectures, hypotheses about what Being could be, and play with those in our day-to-day life? What happens when we do?"
Calvino Rabeni: (from PaB web site)
arabella Ella: intruiging
Calvino Rabeni: My question is - do you do "experiments"?
arabella Ella: and ... 'should' we make conjectures hypothesis etc ... or should be just let Being be?
Calvino Rabeni: "Play as Being is a group of people exploring reality by using our own life as a laboratory. "
Wol Euler: hello lawrence
Wol Euler: have you been here before?
Bertram Jacobus: heyy lawrence - nice to meet you again (!) ... :-))
Liza Deischer: hi Lawrence
Lawrence Vyceratops: Hi. I've been here once.
Wol Euler: ah, that answers my wquestion :)
Bleu Oleander: hi Lawrence
Lawrence Vyceratops: Hi, everyone.
Wol Euler: so you know about the website and publishing the meeting?
arabella Ella: Hi Lawrence
Lawrence Vyceratops: I am aware.
Bertram Jacobus: (but we met at the buddha land) ... ;-)
Wol Euler: good, ty :)
Liza Deischer: Are you asking for being or playing?
Wol Euler: hello TH
Liza Deischer: hi TH
Bertram Jacobus: hello th ... :-)
TH Ordinary: hello!
Bleu Oleander: hey TH
Liza Deischer: brb
Yakuzza Lethecus sneakes into his warm bed, night everyone!
Calvino Rabeni: My question was - do you "experiment"?
Calvino Rabeni: Bye yakusan
Bleu Oleander: nite Yaku
Wol Euler: night yaku, schlaf gut
Calvino Rabeni: What are the barriers to "experiment", if it is difficult in some way?
arabella Ella: do you think it is difficult to 'experiment' Calvino?
Lawrence Vyceratops: What is the topic of discussion?
Calvino Rabeni: Let's say you encounter a friend unexpectely, then remember the 9-second idea, and use it, then look at it as an opportunity
Calvino Rabeni: The meeting with your friend is your life, and right then it becomes your "laboratory"
Wol Euler nods.
Calvino Rabeni: So do you make a hypothesis, make an experiment, try something new, see if it works out as expected ...
Calvino Rabeni: Or is there some difficulty?
Bertram Jacobus: seems to be the pab practise law ...
arabella Ella: nite Yaku
Calvino Rabeni: Which would also be part of the experiment :)
Wol Euler: oh, I think I get it. You are asking whether the word "experiment" is appropriate for using mindfulness to examine our lives?
Wol Euler: hello mick
Lawrence Vyceratops: Sorry, I was late... What is the experiment?
arabella Ella: I think there is a lot more to PaB than simply the 9 sec pause
arabella Ella: there are all the APA, etc
Mickorod Renard: Hiya
arabella Ella: (cant remember all the names right now)
Calvino Rabeni: I'm asking - do you actually do "experiments" and what do they consist of - what is your experience with doing such experiments
Bertram Jacobus: hi mick ! ... :-)
--BELL--
Liza Deischer: hi mick
Calvino Rabeni: Any lab reports ? :)
Bertram Jacobus: i think, "the experiment" is the 9 second micro meditation all 15 minutes lawrence ...
Calvino Rabeni: Play as Being is a radical concept and as so, I think one is justified in expecting a fair amount of "resistance"
TH Ordinary: if you are 'practicing beeing' are you being?
Liza Deischer: minfulness to me is something different then experimenting. But experiments can come into play. But if I think I can harm someone, I always check my motivation
Mickorod Renard: I guess its about what we may find out about our daily lives through taking time to observe
Calvino Rabeni: The idea of PlayAsBeing - at least originally - has a very experimental - that is active - component
arabella Ella: yes Calvino we discussed this a bit at the Malta retreat
Calvino Rabeni: that is ... what do you *do* with your awareness in your life?
Liza Deischer: to me mindfulness is an activity
arabella Ella: but i think a lot of PaB involves mindfulness as part of the experiement
Liza Deischer: and can give very different results then you expected
Bleu Oleander: we try to look "at" what we normally look "through"
arabella Ella: like the one 'Being Seeing'
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that is the first bit of "equipment" for the experiment - mindfulness
Calvino Rabeni: The challenge is - can mindfulness open any real doors in your real life experience
Mickorod Renard: then there are different perspectives than just the routine that we get trapped in
Calvino Rabeni: The door handle can be grasped, turned, opened
Wol Euler: or licked...
Liza Deischer: mindfulness can be a trigger to do things differently, because you can learn that your approach is only based on patterns, not on openess
Calvino Rabeni: And so I'm curious, what experiments have been done?
Calvino Rabeni: And then what happened?
Calvino Rabeni: The practice is not just a concept, a possibility
Calvino Rabeni: It is a doing in a place and a time
arabella Ella: all the experiments done here with Pema are recorded in various places on the web, mainly on Kira wiki I guess
Liza Deischer: ah, now I understand you
Calvino Rabeni: And in one's daily life - "Play as Being is a group of people exploring reality by using our own life as a laboratory. "
Mickorod Renard: much is self discovery,,and as such private other than what is shared here
Calvino Rabeni: I'm trying to be a little "fundamentalist" here
Calvino Rabeni: Yes privacy is worth respecting
Lawrence Vyceratops: Have to go... Hope to join the group again... Good Day! :)
Calvino Rabeni: The question then is - do you do experiments "in private" even if you don't want to report them :)
Mickorod Renard: bye Law
Liza Deischer: bye lawrence
Calvino Rabeni: Bye Lawrence
Liza Deischer: oh yes
arabella Ella: Well Calvino, there are a number of experiments many of which we used to do with Pema here some months back
Mickorod Renard: personally, I do them daily,,and find that they now form part of my routine
Bleu Oleander: like what Ara?
arabella Ella: and many of them may be described as different variants of either mindfulness or phenomenology
Liza Deischer: i think I know what youre asking for, but it is hard to get personal about that
Calvino Rabeni: No, I mean real experiments - you become aware, look at your life around you, then say "now what"?
Liza Deischer: because most of them are
arabella Ella: but you dont look at 'your life around you' that would be too generalistic ... you need to be more specific
Calvino Rabeni: The resistance to doing the experiments - and the resistance to not being "private" - are related?
Calvino Rabeni: Ara, that is exactly my point
Liza Deischer: no, not to me
arabella Ella: like looking at a strong emotion that arises or looking at something that attracts your attention when outdoors or what
Wol Euler: hello laura, born today :) welcome to SL
Mickorod Renard: I do feel there is a limit that I have reached that I would like to overcome
Bertram Jacobus: hello laura
Laura Blackcinder: hi
Mickorod Renard: Hi Laura
Liza Deischer: hi Laura
Wol Euler: I'll give you an introduction in IM so we don't disturb the others
TH Ordinary: hi Laura
Bleu Oleander: hi laura
Laura Blackcinder: ok
Calvino Rabeni: LImits are a way to notice the structure, and get a handle on it - that is halfway to formulating an "experiment"
Liza Deischer: somehow this setting doesn't give me the opportunity to get into that
Liza Deischer: and its not about the people
Calvino Rabeni: Sure, maybe a mpre private setting would
Liza Deischer: :-)
arabella Ella: ok
Calvino Rabeni: For instance, I can say - yes, I do the experiments
Liza Deischer: I think it is more about environment
Calvino Rabeni: And then, I have some resistance to specifying the particulars
Liza Deischer: you need to get to that place
arabella Ella: and your question Calvino is then ... what do the experiments do for me?
Liza Deischer: and not just you, but everyone
Calvino Rabeni: Is "that place" an external thing, or a state of mind, Liza
Liza Deischer: state of mind
Liza Deischer: but you need to be able to share that
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Liza Deischer: and sometimes it is here
arabella Ella: ok i could try to use a simple example from today Calvino
Liza Deischer: I don't feel it is here today
arabella Ella: of Being seeing
Liza Deischer: please do ara
Mickorod Renard: some experiments have been rewarding in revealing results that I have been satisfied with,,,but that often opens up more possibilities
arabella Ella: i went for a walk in the countryside today on my own ... nice and peaceful
arabella Ella: and it was raining
arabella Ella: and at one point i stopped to watch spinklers on a small patch (field) sprinkling water in the rain and the spray flying around ... all on a small scale
arabella Ella: and i focussed on Being seing
arabella Ella: and let my mind play with that idea
arabella Ella: and it was all very serene and peaceful and in my humble opinion ...
Bleu Oleander: do these experiments reveal anything other than how the mind seems first personally?
Calvino Rabeni: I have seen, it is hard for people to share their "experments here" - but important to do them - and sometimes sharing helps others as well as oneself
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks, Ara
arabella Ella: it helps us to get better 'grip' (?) on our thinking and gives us more serenity both for ourselves and others around us
Liza Deischer: true
Liza Deischer: thanks ara
Liza Deischer: serenity is not the goal
Calvino Rabeni: And there's a kind of "meta" or bigger experiment - one's life is such an experiment
arabella Ella: it actually involves dropping everything else except the specific experience (or emotion) which one is focussing on
Calvino Rabeni: Serenity could be the experiment's observable
Mickorod Renard: thats true Calvino,,but some of us here have revealed lots in earlier sessions,,maybe a year back, and now feel that we would be repeating old hat
arabella Ella: what is the goal Liza?
Calvino Rabeni: Not a goal in the "big" experiment, but in the small one, yes
Liza Deischer: to me it is for now to become a better human being,
arabella Ella: ok possibly
Liza Deischer: to myself and others
Liza Deischer: it is about compassion
arabella Ella: or perhaps to make the world a better place for all ... altho that may sound rather bland
--BELL--
Liza Deischer: especially when I or somebody els is struggeling
Liza Deischer: it is easy to give space to good, serene feelings, but not very hard when they are not
arabella Ella: true Liza ... if I understood what you said :)
Calvino Rabeni: @mick, is it possible to "run out" of new experiments and then risk repetition?
Liza Deischer: it is nice to be nice to someone, but hard when you realize somebody needs something else
arabella Ella: but i think it is all a matter of practice and building up skill in 'dropping'
Liza Deischer: that's a good start
Calvino Rabeni: @liza, I think it fine to have a purpose or goal for what to do with the knowledge gained in the experiment
arabella Ella: @Liza it is even harder when you find out someone else is trying to manipulate you with deception!
Mickorod Renard: without sounding selfish, I find that I can articulate well being better when my own sense of well being is good and I can therefore see more clearly
Calvino Rabeni: It is like applied science, R & D
Liza Deischer: *but very hard when they are not (made a mistake a fel lines back)
Calvino Rabeni: I understand, Mick
arabella Ella: yes Calvino that is precisely how Pema described it ... applied science
arabella Ella: (thought so)
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, very scientific,as Pema framed it up
arabella Ella: yes
Liza Deischer: yes are, for example
Calvino Rabeni: And theories need testing :)
arabella Ella: Pema also has a you tube video with similar ideas
Liza Deischer: I think I now what you mean Mick, but to me feeling good doesn't make things clear
Calvino Rabeni: Or vice versa,necessarily
Liza Deischer: but if you say sense of well being, then it sounds like something is growing inside, that gives you another and more clear perspective on yourself
Mickorod Renard: it helps to be able to see through things when one isnt clouded by issues
Calvino Rabeni: But, I think one can cultivat clear state of mind, or at least, see the presence of such as an opportunity
Liza Deischer: or to look at the issue that is in front of you
Calvino Rabeni: But a bigger freedom is to see through whatever is the present case, clear or cloudy
arabella Ella: yes Calvino and here this may link with the I Ching too
Liza Deischer: true, but you need to start somewhere
arabella Ella: and change is always there somewhere
Mickorod Renard: I often do it for collegues, other than myself,,when they are at a wits end,,stepping back from an issue to reavaluate is simple and productive
Liza Deischer: yes, it is
Calvino Rabeni: That's a useful maneuver Mick
Liza Deischer: yes, it is :-)
Wol Euler nods.
Liza Deischer: but how do you do that when you are full of anger?
Calvino Rabeni: PaB practice could be a quick way to draw back like that, and then "re-enter" with extra resources
arabella Ella would just like to say excuse me Pema if I have explained it all incorrectly :)
Liza Deischer: or feel completely unhappy
Mickorod Renard: dropping is easier under some circumstances than others
Calvino Rabeni: Remember - dropping can be partial
Calvino Rabeni: You drop just enough to free up some attention
Mickorod Renard: yes
Calvino Rabeni: and then leap back into the fray
arabella Ella: We have discussed those with Pema here Liza ... emotions ... and stopping ... and dropping ... and somehow taking on a different perspective through dropping time too
Calvino Rabeni: or maelstrom, or cauldron :)
Liza Deischer: okay
Calvino Rabeni: WIth "multilevel" attention that now has more than one perspective
Calvino Rabeni: additional freedom that wasn't there before
Mickorod Renard: yes
arabella Ella: Another exercise which Pema sometimes suggests is seeing life like a movie, frame by frame
Calvino Rabeni: It is not practical to go to the monastery, and come back in several years when no longer angry
Bertram Jacobus: frame by frame = picture by picture ?
Mickorod Renard: and also watching ourselves as like a parent watching a child
Liza Deischer: the only thing I try to say is that clearing your mind is not always an easy thing to do
arabella Ella: yes Bert
Liza Deischer: and not always peaceful
Bertram Jacobus: ty :-)
Calvino Rabeni: The difficult situation is the arena of practice
Bleu Oleander: like a detached observer
Liza Deischer: yes mick, that is where the compassion comes in
Mickorod Renard: yes
Calvino Rabeni: detached AND fully engaged
arabella Ella: well Liza I doubt whether it is easy for those who have been practising for years and years either
Mickorod Renard: we can be very forgiving for our own children
Liza Deischer: that is easy to sat Cal, but how do you do that?
Bertram Jacobus: hello fogtenk
Calvino Rabeni: and forgiving of one's own internal children
Liza Deischer: and we should also do so for ourselfs and others
Mickorod Renard: also there is the story
arabella Ella: yes
Calvino Rabeni: I don't think it's difficult in many cases, Liza
Calvino Rabeni: Do you think it is difficult "in general"?
Bertram Jacobus: iֲ´ll jump away - ty as always, have a good time - bfn ... :-)
Liza Deischer: it's the few others cases that matters most, most of the time
Calvino Rabeni: Bye Bert
Mickorod Renard: the story can lead in may directions,,but we can choose to some extent which path to buy into
Liza Deischer: bi bert
arabella Ella: nite Bert!
Wol Euler: bye bert, take care
Bleu Oleander: bye bert'
Bertram Jacobus: :-)
Mickorod Renard: bye bert
TH Ordinary: bye
Liza Deischer: but maybe I should shut up :-)
Wol Euler: certainly not, liza
Calvino Rabeni: No Liza
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Liza Deischer: because I have a feeling it sounds harsher, then I mean
arabella Ella: please dont shut up Liza I think we can all identify with what you are describing
Mickorod Renard: dont u dare shut up Liza {)
Wol Euler: clarification is always good :)
Liza Deischer: okay, I won't
Mickorod Renard: grin
arabella Ella: :)
Wol Euler grins.
Calvino Rabeni: Liza is usefully looking at the experience, I believe valuably
Liza Deischer: (she said a bit.....eh...insecure)
--BELL--
arabella Ella: well when very strong emotions arise in our selves like when someone deliberately does something to wind us up or hurt us, then it is not easy to deal with, but according to Pema, not impossible
Mickorod Renard: I feel so ambarrassed inside myself, when I know all these idea's and yet at times cannot find the effort to manage my own anger
Liza Deischer: yes, indeed, and I think Cal's questiong is (but I'm not sure) is how we experiment with that
Bleu Oleander: bye everybody :)
TH Ordinary: bye all, thanks!
Calvino Rabeni: Bye Bleu
Liza Deischer: It would be my question
Liza Deischer: be th
Wol Euler: bye bleu, bye th
Liza Deischer: bye gleu
Calvino Rabeni: Experiments with Anger
Liza Deischer: Bleu
arabella Ella: well IMHO when for example we get very angry ... we need to stop, pause and ask ... why am i angry ... what can i do about this ... what if i let this simply be?
Mickorod Renard: bye bleu
Calvino Rabeni: or depression, or fear, just to name a few emotions
Liza Deischer: somehow I don't seem to be albe to write the name Bleu right
Wol Euler: :)
Liza Deischer: fear is a diffecult one
Wol Euler nods to Mick. That's the core of it, yes, applying what we know to ourselves
Liza Deischer: but I think you're right ella
arabella Ella: and we could then realise that there is absolutely nothing we could do cos our anger is the anger of others ... not really ours
Calvino Rabeni: all very compelling aspects of experience
arabella Ella: so simply ... Let it Be
Calvino Rabeni: and tend to cover up "awareness"
arabella Ella: why?
Liza Deischer: no, but that anger can trigger our anger
Calvino Rabeni: People sometimes hope these will "go away" if ignored or dropped
Liza Deischer: it did, because otherwise we wouldn't become angry
Calvino Rabeni: But they come back to bite, if they are pushed into a shadow area
Liza Deischer: yes, but I think you say soething valuable there cal
arabella Ella: exactly Liza ... so if our anger is triggered by others ... what is it really?
Liza Deischer: dropped or ignored
arabella Ella: should it be there at all?
Liza Deischer: that is a big difference
Liza Deischer: and how do we make the distinction between those two
Liza Deischer: are we really dropping
Liza Deischer: or are we ignoring
Mickorod Renard: not buying into someone elses story is something one needs to understand
Liza Deischer: the it is your anger
Liza Deischer: then
Calvino Rabeni: Indeed, good questions
arabella Ella: not ignore ... it is there
arabella Ella: just put it into perspective then 'drop'
arabella Ella: due to the futility
Calvino Rabeni: A shallow "drop" will buy a little free attention
Liza Deischer: there is another techniec that is doing the opposite
Calvino Rabeni: A deeper "drop" may be more permanent
Mickorod Renard: it helps me to view others as living their own story,,I have my own,,in that way there is some seperation that allows self determination
Liza Deischer: (not being able to shut up anyway) yes, but 'giving' it back is opening the way of not looking what is going on with you
arabella Ella: no one said 'giving it back' .... just realising that someone else wishes it on you ... but why should you take it on?
Calvino Rabeni: Any story is true and also misleading, since it puts you in a perspective from which some things are accessible and others are hidden
Liza Deischer: you already did by getting angry
Liza Deischer: to me it is more interesting to see why it makes me angry
Liza Deischer: what is it triggering in me
Mickorod Renard: that is a good point Liza
Liza Deischer: even if I fully understand that the angers initially comes from somebody else
Mickorod Renard: and we often bundle emotions into one angry catagory
arabella Ella: anger or other emotions are often triggered due to a mis match (dissonance) between what we expect and what actually happens
Liza Deischer: yes
Calvino Rabeni: I think Liza is suggesting a kind of experimental approach - with one objective is to get insight
Calvino Rabeni: even if it is at the cost of not immediately "resolving" or bringing "peace"
arabella Ella: yes
Calvino Rabeni: Or do I misinterpret somewhat?
Mickorod Renard: maybe some anger can be depleted by seeing it as say,,,,frustration or sadness
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, they can be related Mick
Liza Deischer: if you let anger get the better of it
Liza Deischer: sometimes frustration comes up
Liza Deischer: or sadness
Calvino Rabeni: Anger is sometimes called a "secondary" emotion
Liza Deischer: anger is never going to stay
arabella Ella: for myself ... the irony is the HUGE difference in perceiving anger in others ... and perceiving it in our own selves (obejctive and subjective perspetvies)
Liza Deischer: nor any other emotion
Calvino Rabeni: Meaning there is something "underneath" it
Liza Deischer: to see it moving around is interesting
Mickorod Renard: anger can cause self damage,,thats what we want to avoid
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Liza Deischer: you don't get angry t there is nothing to be angry about
Mickorod Renard: Wrath on the other hand is managable
Calvino Rabeni: you don't want to be a masochist
Liza Deischer: if you don't feel it
Calvino Rabeni: Wrath is outer-directed
Calvino Rabeni: Sadism is unhealty outer-directed
Liza Deischer: I understand what you mean ara, and yes that is hard
Mickorod Renard: he he
Calvino Rabeni: The level of sadism / masochism is a lower consciousness state of anger
Liza Deischer: yes anger can couse damage
Liza Deischer: good point
Liza Deischer: but that is when you try to ignore it
Calvino Rabeni: Hopefully more awareness would raise it to a constructive level
Liza Deischer: or become anger
Mickorod Renard: I work in a school,,wrath is everywhere,,but it doesnt seem to effect the heart of those needeing to use it
--BELL--
arabella Ella whispers ... nite all must go now :)
Liza Deischer: bye ara, mick
Wol Euler: bye ara, bye mick
Mickorod Renard: I need to get home guys,,it was and is good chatting
Calvino Rabeni: Bye :)
Mickorod Renard: bye
Liza Deischer: that was fast ara :-)
Mickorod Renard: yikes
arabella Ella: he he
arabella Ella: cant TP
Calvino Rabeni: Come back soon :)
Liza Deischer: mick was having problems also
Wol Euler: I too must go, my dears.
Wol Euler: business to attend to
Wol Euler: bye for now, take care
Liza Deischer: okay wol, see you
Calvino Rabeni: Was good 2 have you here Wol :)
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Liza Deischer: I think I need to read this log :-)
Calvino Rabeni: There is a lot in it - and even more lurking just nearby
Liza Deischer: yes
Calvino Rabeni: The "penumbra"
Liza Deischer: but it also makes me insecure talking like this :-)
Calvino Rabeni: Learning to go easy :)
Liza Deischer: I'm not so outgoing
Liza Deischer: normally :-)
Liza Deischer: oenumbra?
Liza Deischer: penumbra
Calvino Rabeni: That is the partly lighted area around a planetary body during an eclipse
Calvino Rabeni: the metaphor of the light and the partial shadow
Calvino Rabeni: there are always many more implicit, unspoken things that get attracted around any conversation or idea
Liza Deischer: ah, ok
Liza Deischer: the attraction of the body
Liza Deischer: planet what ever
Liza Deischer: you crashed
Calvino Rabeni: oops - sorry :)
Liza Deischer: interesting
Calvino Rabeni: The nature of what happens here in the group, is very influenced by the relationships the members have with each other
Liza Deischer: how does it feel right now?
Calvino Rabeni: understanding and /or trust
Calvino Rabeni: It feels, there is always a gray zone near the penumbra
Liza Deischer: yes
Calvino Rabeni: being energized, maybe some fear
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: a dynamic mix between excitement and fear, like characteristic of "risky" sports for example
Liza Deischer: yes, but that is the fear most want to leave out
Calvino Rabeni: Sure they do, they for the main part stay comfortable\
Liza Deischer: and this kind of fear is very interesting
Liza Deischer: because you just stepped over you boundary
Calvino Rabeni: Except, there are people that enjoy different levels of risk
Liza Deischer: I have the same feeling about myself tonight
Calvino Rabeni: and all boundaries are flexible, and change somewhat when waked near
Liza Deischer: yes
Liza Deischer: some people don't understand fear
Liza Deischer: so they look for it
Calvino Rabeni: Athletes know it in physical areas of experience
Liza Deischer: to at least get the excitement from it
Calvino Rabeni: Fear + consciousness often becomes excitement
Calvino Rabeni: And in one sense, those are not actually separate "emotions"
Liza Deischer: yes but that is the spinooff from the fear
Calvino Rabeni: just labels that say something about how resourced one is when encountering the experience
Liza Deischer: hi Quin
Quin Maven: hi
Liza Deischer: you've been here before?
Quin Maven: i have
Liza Deischer: you know that we are still recording?
Quin Maven: no
Liza Deischer: it means that what you say is going to be recorded and placed on a website
Liza Deischer: unless you don't want that
Quin Maven: no i don't want that
Liza Deischer: then maybe it is better not to stay
Liza Deischer: or only listen
Liza Deischer: he has been here before
Calvino Rabeni: Usually visitors say OK to that issue
Liza Deischer: explained how it works
Calvino Rabeni: You have seem Quin here?
Liza Deischer: but keep coming back :-)
Liza Deischer: I think so
Liza Deischer: yes, though some do leaf
Liza Deischer: but then they leaf :-)
Liza Deischer: leave
Liza Deischer: as you would expect
Liza Deischer: that's why I asked to be certain he understands
Calvino Rabeni: Ah, I'm expecting a RL phone call pretty soon, now is a good time to get ready for it
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: GTG Liza, see you later :)
Liza Deischer: see you later

2010.02.10 19:00 - Talking Stick
../../../Chat_Logs/2010/02/2010.02.11_01%3a00_-_Acceptance_and_Blame

2010.02.11 01:00 - Acceptance and Blame
../../../Chat_Logs/2010/02/2010.02.11_07%3a00_-_How_can_we_experience_a_peaceful_world%3f

The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Calvino, Gaya and myself. Since the three of us are members of the group 'Ways of Knowing' is not surprising that most of the discussion was centred around the Lojong teachings.

    Calvino Rabeni: Good (morning?) Zen
    Zen Arado: Oh Hi Cal
    Zen Arado: I was checking my Emails ;)
    Zen Arado: how are you?
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm well. And you?
    Zen Arado: I have a cold
    Zen Arado: so a bit miserable with it
    Zen Arado: but it is getting better from yestrday
    Zen Arado: how are you doing with th Lojong teachings?
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, I think I was talking to a friend about them earlier today - can't quite remember the gist of it however. I've been enjoying them.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I was talking to a friend who came to the earlier PaB meeting.
    Zen Arado: I spent a lot of time on them last summer
    Zen Arado: I have 3 books on them
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, you probably have Pema Chodron
    Zen Arado: I really like the practicality of the teaching
    Calvino Rabeni: It's a no-nonsense teaching
    Calvino Rabeni: very practical
    Zen Arado: yes and Chogyam Trungpa (her teacher)
    Zen Arado: and Ken Mc Leods book too
    Zen Arado: I think I need something to shift my habit patterns
    Calvino Rabeni: Why is that?
    Zen Arado: even when you see they are not good you keep doing them
    Calvino Rabeni: Have you tried doing them "better"?

Gaya arrives: Discussion of the practicality/usefulness of the teachings.

Calvino Rabeni: Hello Gaya !
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Calvino and Zen :)
    Zen Arado: Hi Gaya
    Calvino Rabeni: It's been a while
    Zen Arado: we were discussing the usefulness of the Lojong teachings Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm sure I was here recently ... :) ah! *listens*
    Zen Arado: I am slowing my study of these type of teachings right down
    Zen Arado: maybe just one per week
    Zen Arado: and see how it fits into my life
    Zen Arado: I started doing that with koans lately and seem to see more in them
    Gaya Ethaniel nods :)
    Zen Arado: I think the Lojong are koans in a way too
    Gaya Ethaniel: So ... what do you see in the aphorisms in that way?
    Zen Arado: how to apply them in my life mainly
    Zen Arado: like the one on 'Driving all blames into one'
    Zen Arado: I , like many others, look for someone to blame for my problems a lot of the time
    Gaya Ethaniel: Almost most of the time, it's all about us I think :P
    Calvino Rabeni: Or pertaining to habits, for example, what is applicable?
    Zen Arado: yes - you see how you can change
    Gaya Ethaniel urges you to add reports before the Sunday meeting ^^;;;
    Calvino Rabeni: How do you add reports?
    Zen Arado: rether than just gaining an intellectual nderstanding that only satisfies curiosity
    Gaya Ethaniel: We can talk about that after, I will show you :)
    Zen Arado: I don't know either
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok
    Gaya Ethaniel: I've been pondering on that one too this week [more than one per week is too much for me] ... starting with 'could it be something amiss with me?', still a long way to go, certainly more than a week :)
    Zen Arado: I found I missed some good points until I read the log again afterwards
    Zen Arado: so many ppl talking at the same time

The need to ground teachings in personal experience.

Zen Arado: maybe the points could be backed up with personal experience of trying to apply them?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, the discussion was flowing quite fast for me too so I'm encouraging people to add reports and read others in advance :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: So that discussions can be grounded on experiences from reports as before when Stim was around.
    Zen Arado: yes - it is so easy to just gain intellectual comprehension I think
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: A big part of the work is emotional
    Zen Arado: do you have a philosophy background Gaya?
    Gaya Ethaniel: No, my brain is very lazy ... ^^;;;
    Gaya Ethaniel: And also physical?
    Zen Arado: doesn't seem so to me:)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks :)

Unconditional acceptance - what is that?

Calvino Rabeni: Radical acceptance, for instance
    Calvino Rabeni: "When practicing unconditional acceptance, start with yourself" "Exclude nothing from your acceptance practice: train with a whole heart"
    Gaya Ethaniel: I prefer 'include' instead of accept ...
    Zen Arado: yes acceptance isn't so easy
    Calvino Rabeni: In that sense, the "Big Yes" needs to be able to encompass all "No's"
    Zen Arado: and it includes doing something to change the situation I think
    Zen Arado: the 'unconditional' bit is important too
    Gaya Ethaniel: Say more about 'change the situation' bit Zen?
    Zen Arado: if you only half accept you are still resisting
    Calvino Rabeni: Full compassion for yourself
    Zen Arado: well... if you aren't open to changing things it is resignation instead of acceptance I think
    Zen Arado: kind of thinking that a situation is hopeless?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Do you mean 'open to change' in general?
    Calvino Rabeni: Unconditional means unconditional.
    Gaya Ethaniel: lol yeah, I guess so.
    Calvino Rabeni: So regardless of whether you can change it, or even want to
    Zen Arado: ah but the acceptance part has to be fully accepting
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: But whether something can change or not isn't always up to us ... so perhaps this also have to be accepted.
    Zen Arado: yes - more about being open to the possibility
    Calvino Rabeni: The proverb "don't depend on how the rest of the world is" also applies to the parts of oneself that are not one-pointed
    Calvino Rabeni: It is like "faith" in a way
    Zen Arado: 'one-pointed'?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, unified. The parts of self that seem "other" are like the world
    Calvino Rabeni: People find a way to have faith, regardless of what happens in the world
    Zen Arado: my brain isn't working too well this morning :)
    Calvino Rabeni: and regardless of what happens with the "unruly" parts of self

About taking the blame.

Calvino Rabeni: About "blame", for instance.
    Zen Arado: and I am realizing how little I grasped some of these teachings
    Calvino Rabeni: On the normal level is is a very primitive concept
    Zen Arado: Taking the blame for things yourself simplifies, clarifies issues, Chogyam Trungpa says.
    Calvino Rabeni: But the suggestion of the lojong idea is that it can be transformed
    Calvino Rabeni: This is a almost the opposite of radical acceptance - it is radical responsibility
    Calvino Rabeni: or accountability
    Zen Arado: so do you think we should just take the the blame even if we are not really to blame?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, why not
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well, let's talk about what 'blame' means and is for?
    Calvino Rabeni: RIght gaya
    Calvino Rabeni: It means very little, in a sense
    Zen Arado: blame is assigning responsibility for failure?
    Calvino Rabeni: It means "who is responsible", and the answer is "me"
    Calvino Rabeni: No, nothing to do with failure, really
    Calvino Rabeni: It says, essentially, take radical responsibility for whatever happens
    Zen Arado: well something that has gone wrong
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think in 'failures', seeds for 'success/failures' are planted ...
    Calvino Rabeni: then there is no blame
    Calvino Rabeni: A failure is only a collection of white and black seeds
    Zen Arado: Many successful entrepreneurs recount how much they learned from their early failures.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods :)
    Calvino Rabeni: In which you are looking at the black ones :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: Funny how we look for someone to blame when things go wrong. As if pinning the blame onto someone actually changes anything. At least it gives us a sense of relief by taking the load of responsibility off us.
    Calvino Rabeni: Radical responsibility and radical acceptance are two complementary opposites
    Calvino Rabeni: That's not universal, it's an emotional habit that some people have a lot of and some ahve very little of
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think it has something to do with how we are when things are going 'well'.
    Calvino Rabeni: Blaming is in large part a social convention
    Calvino Rabeni: And the style of doing so is a family affair
    Zen Arado: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: We forget things change ... can't go well all the time ^^;;;
    Zen Arado: yes a kind of reaction to impermanence when you think of it
    Calvino Rabeni: A state of non-objectivity - when things go well people ignore it, when it goes "wrong" they notice and blame
    Gaya Ethaniel: ^^;;;
    Calvino Rabeni: Why not praise and feel gratitude?
    Calvino Rabeni: Lojong counsels gratitude always
    Zen Arado: yes - and enjoy and praise others for their successes
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: And oneself :)
    Zen Arado: Taking all the blame yourself seems very difficult - maybe it is best to adopt a practice of not assigning any blame at all.
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: No, take it, but have no fear
    Calvino Rabeni: It is tonglen
    Zen Arado: just get out of the habit of looking for someone/ something to blame
    Gaya Ethaniel: But it's always good to learn from own mistakes, if situations worsened due to them.
    Calvino Rabeni: pick up the white seeds - sort them out
    Gaya Ethaniel: Even that is difficult to practice I think Zen :) I often have to stop myself a little into such a process at times.
    Zen Arado: yes I know
    Zen Arado: it is so endemic to our society too
    Gaya Ethaniel nods.
    Zen Arado: or am I generealizing too much?
    Calvino Rabeni: Frankly, Zen, I think so :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well we are so encourage to be better and compete ...
    Calvino Rabeni: You are right it is common, but I certainly wouldn't say it predominates over other emotional patterns
    Zen Arado: but things do need to be changed sometimes so you have to loo for who is responsible?
    Zen Arado: look
    Calvino Rabeni: We are always all responsible
    Calvino Rabeni: 100%
    Gaya Ethaniel shrugs ... one can't make people to change, only oneself ...
    Zen Arado: personal example
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, and one may more easily take action oneself than compel others

My personal example.   

Zen Arado: I was at a hotel yesterdaY with poor disabled access
    Zen Arado: do I just accept that?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Did you contact various organisations and complain?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, accept it while you do what is needed about it
    Zen Arado: I told the manager that she should do something about it
    Zen Arado: provide a ramp
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think ... there is a law about that in UK ... if you feel strongly you can make formal complaints to relevant organisations.
    Zen Arado: yes there is
    Zen Arado: but so many just ignore the law
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's not considerate of them ... I agree.
    Zen Arado: disabled organisation can't do much
    Zen Arado: you would have to take a personal lawsuit against them
    Gaya Ethaniel: mm ... I was thinking about organisations that rate hotels, B&B really.
    Gaya Ethaniel: AA, Which etc ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Then regional/national tourism boards ...
    Zen Arado: hmmmm might work
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bad reviews affect businesses so ...
    Zen Arado: the 'disabled accessibility ' bit is just left off the brochures
    Gaya Ethaniel: But I do think things have improved a lot in UK, on roads and ramps in general. Didn't see much of them even in 90s.

Gaya provides us with information about posting reports on WOK group and logs off.

Gaya Ethaniel: I'm sorry to disturb but I need to log off soon. I created an account and report page for you Zen. You should have password in your email.
    Gaya Ethaniel: And here is how to - http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/Wiki_Tutorial
    Zen Arado: ok thanks Gaya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Give it a go, and send me either email or IM so that I can have a look on wiki or we can meet up to walk it through ok?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Calvino :) Enjoy your day Zen :)
    Zen Arado: bye Gaya :)

Back to health problems and how to cope.

Zen Arado: what you said was good Cal ' accept it while you do what is needed about it
    Calvino Rabeni: Possibly relevant proverb from lojong: "Always meditate on whatever you resent" :)
    Calvino Rabeni: This doesn't mean acquiesence and resignation, luckily
    Zen Arado: yes - you can get very resentful about lack of disabled access
    Calvino Rabeni: It might mean, clarity and forthrightness
    Zen Arado: or I can anyway :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I can easily imagine :)
    Zen Arado: you get so tired of it
    Calvino Rabeni: Sorry
    Zen Arado: but that is the way it is and at least the situation is improving
    Calvino Rabeni: A friend of mine has terrible health.
    Zen Arado: yes?
    Calvino Rabeni: Years ago, you couldn't talk to him about it because he was resentful
    Calvino Rabeni: He would be angry if you tried to help, and angry if not.
    Calvino Rabeni: Somehow this changed over time
    Zen Arado: I can imagine
    Calvino Rabeni: Something spiritual I would guess
    Zen Arado: you don't know how you will cope until it happens to you though
    Zen Arado: and it takes time to accept
    Calvino Rabeni: his health is still bad, but he doesn't burden with the added emotions he used to suffer with
    Calvino Rabeni: Like aging, but more intense and faster, is how I imagine it
    Zen Arado: yes my meditation practice sure helps me
    Zen Arado: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: the body is breaking down slowly, losing bit by bit
    Zen Arado: happens to us all in the end
    Zen Arado: but I am very healthy otherwise
    Zen Arado: just muscle weakness
    Zen Arado: even to live as long as I have is a bonus I think
    Zen Arado: lots of my friends didn't survive to 60
    Zen Arado: 'unconditional acceptance' is great
    Zen Arado: and ditching all the emotional extras we add to situations
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it goes along with the ability to transform things - to change the suffering things into positive things
    Calvino Rabeni: resentment into gratitude, for example
    Calvino Rabeni: fear into trust
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: and looking for ways to do this in our lives
    Zen Arado: and being able to recount personal examples to others would be more instructive than just understanding the principle
    Calvino Rabeni: It is not so much about putting on a smile and shining light into the dark corners, but about accepting and loving what is, dark as well as light
    Calvino Rabeni: I agree, that is useful
    Zen Arado: yes Cal

Reminded about my penchant for generalizations and about approaches to writing.

Calvino Rabeni: In fact, it might be constructive to have a discipline for a while - "no generaliztions" :)
    Zen Arado: ha ha
    Calvino Rabeni: Examples only :)
    Calvino Rabeni: And it would work at least as well for "learning"
    Zen Arado: I have a friend with Aspergers who hates generalizations :)
    Zen Arado: you only learn the teachings by doiing in the long run
    Zen Arado: they are so practice oriented
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it can be done retrospectively - read the proverb, find examples that are already experiences of applying them
    Zen Arado: yes and thinking about this might make us be more alert, make us look for ways to apply the teachings
    Calvino Rabeni: These proverbs are not a system, are not descriptions of a theory, they are practical reminders for a population of people who already practice
    Zen Arado: see opportunities quicker
    Zen Arado: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: BTW, did you get "the book of not-knowing"?
    Zen Arado: not yet - it has to come from the US I think
    Zen Arado: you started it yet?
    Calvino Rabeni: I have it, and have been dipping here and there into it,just sampling
    Calvino Rabeni: so far, favorably impressed
    Zen Arado: good :)
    Calvino Rabeni: It has a sense of depth, but also of immediacy and "personal" -ness at the same time
    Zen Arado: I was talking to guy at a meditation meteeting last week who had done martial arts like you
    Zen Arado: ju jitsu I think
    Calvino Rabeni: If you could imagine something with the weight of sutras, but with a personal, casual style at once
    Zen Arado: yes good
    Calvino Rabeni: Hard to combine those two things, but it manages
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm also glad, it has benefited from consistent editing, which must have been a lot of work
    Zen Arado: sounds good
    Zen Arado: I have been trying to write about the Lojong teaching
    Zen Arado: trying to be more active about them
    Calvino Rabeni: I remember that. What is your writing approach?
    Zen Arado: sometimes I just do 'freewriting'
    Zen Arado: and then edit
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it would be excellent if we had a commentary on each item by each member of our group
    Zen Arado: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: even if it were somewhat like a journal - just like - this is a glimpse into it I have at this time
    Zen Arado: it takes work but worth it
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: doesn't have to be too academic
    Zen Arado: I better go Cal
    Zen Arado: nice talking to you as always :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Likewise Zen, thanks and good to see you. Take care, be well :)
    Zen Arado: ok bye :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye then.

2010.02.11 07:00 - How can we experience a peaceful world?
../../../Chat_Logs/2010/02/2010.02.11_13%3a00_-_just_a_thursday

The Guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind. The comments are by Storm Nordwind.

It is a bright winter's morning for me in real life. In the Play as Being pavilion, it is still dark though winter has passed. Lawrence and Archmage were there waiting on the hour, and a deep discussion is waiting unseen in the wings...

Lawrence Vyceratops: Hi, Storm.
Storm Nordwind: Hello Lawrence
Archmage Atlantis: hello Storm
Storm Nordwind: Hi Arch
Lawrence Vyceratops: brown snake?
Archmage Atlantis: Iwill ask the animas to depart
Storm Nordwind: They are your familiars Arch
Archmage Atlantis: yes
Archmage Atlantis: they know what I know
Storm Nordwind: And do they not know what you do not know Arch? :)
Archmage Atlantis: yes

This is the first time I have spoken with Lawrence, so I ask the usual kinds of question.

Storm Nordwind: Lawrence, please excuse my asking, but have you been to meetings in this Play as Being pavilion before?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Once.
Storm Nordwind: Ah... good. Then I don't need to ask your permission again to publish your presence or anything you say! :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: No, it's fine. :)
Archmage Atlantis: He is Law
Storm Nordwind: Great thank you
Lawrence Vyceratops: Everyone says that. haha
Storm Nordwind: Better perhaps than saying Vice? ;)
Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, in RL, also.
Lawrence Vyceratops: I'm, actually, new to SL.
Storm Nordwind: I see that from your birthday...
Archmage Atlantis: vyceratops was a great dinosaur
Lawrence Vyceratops: Haha
Storm Nordwind: but sometimes birthdays can be deceptive :)
Archmage Atlantis: Oncce thy ruled the earth with their laws
Storm Nordwind: I know very little about dinosaurs.
Lawrence Vyceratops: Yeah, I don't know about the vyceratops...

I begin a conversation with Lawrence. What attracted him to PaB a second time?

Storm Nordwind: So Lawrence - you came once and still you came back! ;) There must have been something that interested you (?)
Lawrence Vyceratops: I enjoy talking to people who seem concerned with the state of things - human problems and such.
Lawrence Vyceratops: Not so concerned with ipods and touchscreens...
Storm Nordwind: wonderful :)
Archmage Atlantis: because , that and maybe....they are all L
Storm Nordwind: Some of us use these things as tools, but I for one have no obsession with them
Lawrence Vyceratops: Right, obsessed. Of course, tools are not something bad.
Storm Nordwind: They are mostly neutral, but they are sometimes designed not to be! :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes.

And what are his impressions of PaB itself so far?

Storm Nordwind: Did you get a chance to look at our Wiki, and find out about the 9 second practice?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, I did.
Storm Nordwind: Good morning Widget
Widget Whiteberry: good morning
Archmage Atlantis: used not to be....they can also be used to be
Lawrence Vyceratops: Hello, Widget.
Storm Nordwind: Did you come away with any particular impressions Lawrence? I'm interested because I may need to contribute to a content update, ensuring things are clear for example

Good honest answers - and subsequent questions, to which I try and give my own ideas in turn.

Lawrence Vyceratops: I'm still trying to figure it out... if there is something, aimed to be achieved from the practice.
Archmage Atlantis: Storm created these trees, the feet on the wisteria ... sometimes he snows us in
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: I think one way to look at that is to treat it as an experimental project Lawrence. A kind of "what would happen if". And then to share our findings with the rest of us here. People find some different things and some things in common.
Lawrence Vyceratops: I'm not sure I follow, completely...
Lawrence Vyceratops: What do you mean by, "what would happen if"?
Storm Nordwind: For example, you'll hear or read the idea that during the 9 seconds we can "drop what we have, in order to see what we are". What is left there when do that?
Storm Nordwind: And when we do do that, what effects does it have? How do we feel? What insights does it give us?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, but I think we do that all the time, perhaps, not realizing it.
Storm Nordwind: Can you say more about that? :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, like when you go to do a task, you sort of clear your mind, in order to complete the task.
Lawrence Vyceratops: You concentrate on it.
Archmage Atlantis: yes
Lawrence Vyceratops: You are not thinking of a bunch of different things.
Storm Nordwind: Do you find that clearing a relatively easy thing to do?
Lawrence Vyceratops: It seems...
Lawrence Vyceratops: I think we can make it complicated. :)
Archmage Atlantis: for us it was complicated
Archmage Atlantis: we had rules
Storm Nordwind: It seems that's a pragmatic approach! :)
Archmage Atlantis: none made sense

How about "starting at the end"?

Storm Nordwind: One of the ideas of Play as Being is "to start at the end". Did you read anything about that?
Lawrence Vyceratops: No. I tried to read some of the logs.
Lawrence Vyceratops: What's start at the end?
Storm Nordwind: The logs are very variable - we talk about the practice but we also talk about lots of (sometimes) related topics! ;)
Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, one I read seemed to be about the weather, I think?
Storm Nordwind: haha! hmmm yes ;)
Lawrence Vyceratops: :) haha
Storm Nordwind: It's unpredictable - like the weather I guess!
Storm Nordwind: Starting at the end...
Archmage Atlantis: The practice is a method of living
Storm Nordwind: let me suggest an example fo starting at the end...
Archmage Atlantis: one of many that are valid
Storm Nordwind: the name of the group is Play as Being and that gives us a simple illustration...
Storm Nordwind: So people might wonder what is "Being"...
Storm Nordwind: is it a state of awareness...
Storm Nordwind: is that what the group means? ...
Storm Nordwind: or does it refer to some abstract or real all-pervasive entity? ...
Storm Nordwind: or simply everything that "is"? ...
Storm Nordwind: so to find this out for ourselves...
Storm Nordwind: we experiment...
Storm Nordwind: we not only play at seeing what it's like simply to "be"...
Storm Nordwind: but we imagine, if there was such a thing, ...
Storm Nordwind: what it would be like to be Being...
Storm Nordwind: and we play with that notion, lightly, get a feel for it
Storm Nordwind: in a similar way that some meditation practices do
Storm Nordwind: Hard to do of course in just 9 seconds! ;)
Lawrence Vyceratops: I lost the part about the start at the end...
Storm Nordwind: It's like a short cut...
--BELL--
Fael Illyar: Hello Everyone :)
Storm Nordwind: because there are many practices that suggest to such a destination (of being Being) that you may want to take a step by step appraoch. Instead we started by saying "what would it be like if we were already at our destination?"
Lawrence Vyceratops: Hello, Fael
Storm Nordwind: Hi Fael
Storm Nordwind: "How would it feel?"
Lawrence Vyceratops: Oh, yes, I think I see what you are saying...
Fael Illyar: looks like SL doesn't want to rez me for myself... I'll relog. Brb
Lawrence Vyceratops: The obvious, right?
Lawrence Vyceratops: We are already being.

I draw a passing parallel to certain meditation practices (specifically, tantra, but I don't really want to get into discussing that if it's unfamiliar or irrelevant). We end up talking about Lawrence's view on meditation.

Storm Nordwind: yes... are you familiar with things like buddhist meditation? I ask because there is a parallel in certain techniques.
Lawrence Vyceratops: I suppose. Everyone has their own interpretations.
Lawrence Vyceratops: Interpretations as to what meditation is.
Storm Nordwind: I see. Of course. Do you have a working interpretation?
Lawrence Vyceratops: I suppose so. I see a couple different kinds...
Lawrence Vyceratops: I see one interpretation where I presume one is suppose to quieten the mind...
Lawrence Vyceratops: and one that is more contemplative.
Storm Nordwind: Interesting. Do you practise either of these?
Lawrence Vyceratops: I think we all do, naturally, perhaps, without realizing it.

Peaceful mind or quietened mind? And a peaceful world?

Storm Nordwind: Can I play devil's advocate for a moment then? ;) ...
Lawrence Vyceratops: Ok.
Storm Nordwind: and suggest that if we all do a practice that quietens the mind, but without realizing it, wouldn't the wolrd be filled with happy peaceful people?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Why do you say that?
Archmage Atlantis: geez, i really dislike the phrase "devil's advocate"
Fael Illyar: Storm, that's assuming everyone would do it all the time :)
Storm Nordwind: Sure Fael! :)
Storm Nordwind: But I am playing devil's advocate here :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: Why would the world be peaceful?
Storm Nordwind: Let me turn that round Lawrence. Why does the world appear to be unpeaceful to many people at the moment?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Because we are shouting, and fighting, and killing each other and we can see and feel that.
Archmage Atlantis: More important...why Should the world be peaceful?
Fael Illyar doesn't see anyone shouting, fighting or killing someone.
Storm Nordwind: Do you think that people who feel peaceful within themselves would be motivated to shout, fight, kill etc?
Lawrence Vyceratops: No, not here.
Archmage Atlantis: shout yes
Lawrence Vyceratops: But, how does quieting the mind for a moment make one peaceful?
Widget Whiteberry: Archmage?
Archmage Atlantis: fight perhaps
Lawrence Vyceratops: There has to be some kind of intention.
Archmage Atlantis: kill no, it is a law
Storm Nordwind: Ah... perhaps we are talking of slightly different things. I made an assumption - sorry...
Widget Whiteberry: I see people causing harm to others ....
Fael Illyar: (and to themselves)
Widget Whiteberry: that too, Fael
Storm Nordwind: So the ability to have a peaceful mind is perhaps what I meant. I had wrongly assumed you meant that with "quiet" Lawrence
--BELL--
Lawrence Vyceratops: Ah, I'm sure quite a lot of confusion arises from those two understandings.
Lawrence Vyceratops: But what does it mean, to quieten the mind?
Storm Nordwind: That was your term... I was hoping you would explain! :))

There's meditation and meditation!

Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, I thought the practice was that, for 9 seconds, 90 seconds.
Lawrence Vyceratops: Are we talking about meditation?
Storm Nordwind: So many different kinds of meditation, or what people call meditation :) ...
Archmage Atlantis: i have a notecard to share
Widget Whiteberry nods to AM
Lawrence Vyceratops: Thank you.

This is a fascinating conversation but I'd like to hear other people's views as well.

Storm Nordwind: But for the 9 seconds practice, I would not necessarily use the term quieten the mind. Personally I would say a kind of friendly detachment from identifying with the thoughts that pass through the mind. Perhaps others would like to share their thoughts on that?
Lawrence Vyceratops: So, a kind of, watch the movements of the mind type of thing?
Widget Whiteberry: for me that friendly detachment is a time out from whatever emotions I attach to my thoughts
Widget Whiteberry: a kind of reset
Archmage Atlantis: Storm is a founder of this place
Storm Nordwind: Great description Widget! Thank you :)

Lawrence and I exchange views.

Lawrence Vyceratops: What happens, as I see it, is like when you ride in a car for a while, and then you come to a stop and you start to feel like you're rolling backwards.
Lawrence Vyceratops: It's like seeing a bright light and then looking away and seeing spots.
Storm Nordwind: I don't see it like that Lawrence, not like a zazen or vipissana kind of practice
Storm Nordwind: I see it as acknowledging that those things (including thoughts are there)...
Storm Nordwind: and then 'dropping' your attachment and identification with them...
Storm Nordwind: and seeing what ELSE is there
Storm Nordwind: What are you behind all that
Storm Nordwind: what IS there? :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: Behind all identification?
Storm Nordwind: yes
Lawrence Vyceratops: Are you speaking of time?
Archmage Atlantis: do those words, from buddist thought, familiar to u Law?
Storm Nordwind: I wasn't (at the time!;) , but what would you like to say of time?

Two words that can cause trouble: "beyond" and "behind".

Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, I'm trying to understand the concept of "going beyond." That always gives me trouble.
Lawrence Vyceratops: Or seeing behind, as I've heard it put here.
Lawrence Vyceratops: Which words, Arch?
Storm Nordwind: Perhaps "beyond" would suggest a journey from where there isn't something to where there is. We are perhaps suggesting that there may be something worthwhile exploring right here and now, but dropping our attention to distractions might help us see the 'elephant in the room' that's already there
Lawrence Vyceratops: hold on... let me think about that...
Archmage Atlantis: Ah, the hindi tale of the blind men and the elephant
Storm Nordwind: no rush... we are here every 6 hours, day in, day out :))
Lawrence Vyceratops: I'm not sure what we are exploring...
--BELL--

Again, I'd like to hear others' views too.

Storm Nordwind: Perhaps a different voice than mine might be helpful :)
Fael Illyar: the nature of reality ... or perhaps the mind :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, I'm not sure what is meant by "nature" either, at least not in a spiritual aspect. In a scientific aspect, I suppose it would be a recognizable pattern.
Lawrence Vyceratops: There is much I do not understand about spirituality, but I see that religion and spirituality seem to address very important issues.
Fael Illyar: PaB is not purely spiritual
Fael Illyar: nor purely scientific
Storm Nordwind: but I suggest it is very pragmatic!
Fael Illyar: Yes, quite pagmaic approach :)
Fael Illyar: pragmatic
Fael Illyar: my keyboard is eating my letters again :)
Storm Nordwind chuckles

Context could be important.

Lawrence Vyceratops: I think the biggest problem is context. It seems very important to be on the same ground, defining our terms and such.
Storm Nordwind: context is always important to understanding, I agree
Fael Illyar: yes, on this topic, getting the context to mach is ... perhaps the biggest part :)

Mulling over mulling!

Lawrence Vyceratops: So, what is meant by letting go of our attachments?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Are we meaning to not mull over the thoughts of them?
Storm Nordwind: That's my personal phraseology, and it comes from my buddhist background. I'm not speaking for others when I say that
Lawrence Vyceratops: So, we watch the movement of thought and feeling and perception in the mind as we sit quietly for 9 seconds or 90 seconds?
Storm Nordwind: You can do, if you choose. Some people do, yes.
Storm Nordwind: But coming back to PaB (the standard abbreviation for Play as Being here itseems) ...
Archmage Atlantis: ich bin ein berliner - did i say that grammatically?
Storm Nordwind: these might be your method to play with the experience of simply Being
Archmage Atlantis: It means to me the same as
Archmage Atlantis: We are the world
Storm Nordwind: and it would follow the meditation of certain of our Zen friends... though I do not do that :)
Storm Nordwind: If you choose to mull over thoughts, as I think you said, then can you do it whole heartedly and without distraction?
Lawrence Vyceratops: I'm not sure what you mean...
Storm Nordwind: If instead, you simply choose to sit and be, can you watch thoughts arise and pass without following them while you sit and experience being?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, I can do that.
Storm Nordwind: Then you are more fortunate than many to be able to do that naturally Lawrence. Blessed indeed. :)
Archmage Atlantis: I do not see a clouded mind, Storm
Lawrence Vyceratops: But, I don't see anything special in it.
Storm Nordwind: No... when something comes very naturally to us (and I can think of many things I can do from birth that are difficult for most people) we don't think they are special
Lawrence Vyceratops: I do think, however, that maybe some enjoy it, because it does have a sensation.

If we are peaceful, how can we tell? :)

Storm Nordwind: However, may I suggest an almost scientific test to see whether you really have the peacefulness of mind when you experience this?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Ok...
Widget Whiteberry pays close attention
Storm Nordwind: I'll just mention two things...
Archmage Atlantis: k i am also
--BELL--
Archmage Atlantis: time to go
Storm Nordwind: Firstly, check your physical body. When you are attuned to that peacefulness, the tension (if you have any) will start to drift from your body. (That's a fairly coarse indication, and not the best). Secondly, are you happy? Really! Because happiness spontaneously emerges from a peaceful mind. Always. If you can therefore always maintain a peaceful mind, you can always maintain a state of true happiness!
Archmage Atlantis: good luck with this
Storm Nordwind: Bye Arch
Fael Illyar: I need to go also. Have fun everyone :)
Storm Nordwind: Bye Fael
Widget Whiteberry: is there a third?
Storm Nordwind: Perhaps Widget! ;) But perhaps two are enough for now?
Widget Whiteberry: yes, a good start

But how about peace in the world?

Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, I don't have a problem with that. I am more concerned with others, who are dividing and causing great conflict in the world.
Storm Nordwind: An understandable and laudable intention Lawrence!
Lawrence Vyceratops: As, I have divided, also, you see.
Widget Whiteberry: I will return ..
Lawrence Vyceratops: It is in the society, because it is in the individual.
Storm Nordwind: Bye Widget!
Lawrence Vyceratops: Bye, Widget.
Storm Nordwind: Yes, I agree it is in the individual. If individuals change, then their societies change.

Any difference between "I" and "we"? If not, why not?

Storm Nordwind: What did you mean when you said: " I have divided, also"?
Lawrence Vyceratops: We divide when we belong to a group, or identify with an image.
Storm Nordwind: Sure. But you said "I" not "we" I believe?
Lawrence Vyceratops: I, we, not much difference.
Lawrence Vyceratops: People think we have personal experiences, but only superficially.
Storm Nordwind: Perhaps not to me, but I suspect there's a big difference between "I" and "we" for many people. Are you describing a particular philosophical viewpoint? Or a spiritual one?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, I'm not sure... I suppose philosophical/scientific?...
Lawrence Vyceratops: For instance, you could take ten people from different parts of the world and put them together...
Lawrence Vyceratops: remove their skulls, and put their brains on a table...
Lawrence Vyceratops: They are all human brains and all function the same.
Lawrence Vyceratops: Body is the same way...
Lawrence Vyceratops: So, when you touch fire and I touch fire, we both burn the same, it is not a personal experience.
Lawrence Vyceratops: Similarly, when one loses a loved one and another does also, both experience sorrow, which is not personal, though it seems to be.

Can we be sure common experience really is common?

Storm Nordwind: Are you suggesting that our brains tap into a common 'something' that provides the experience?
Lawrence Vyceratops: What do you mean by "tap into"?
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: We experience things inside ourselves, do we not? I can in no way tell whether my experience is the same as yours when something happens to me. I can speculate, but I have no proof. So the only way that we could share something in common would be if there was something we could both access and know we experienced the same. Which is philosophically and scientifically tricky. Empirically it might be fine to say so, but no proof!
Lawrence Vyceratops: The experience may vary from person to person, and it is true that we can only experience ourselves (you can see and touch a tree, but cannot be a tree), but we are like machines - all built the same.
Storm Nordwind: Yet how does one person see something and find it attractive and pleasant, and another person find the same thing replusive? The object has no inherent goodness or badness it would seem. How does machine theory account for that?
Lawrence Vyceratops: That is what I meant by "superficial."
Lawrence Vyceratops: Superficial differences.
Lawrence Vyceratops: Is there a machine theory?
Storm Nordwind: It's a popular way of seeing things amongst some people. I don't know its actual name! :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: Ah.

Fire is fire?

Lawrence Vyceratops: But, yes, it's like fire. Take two matches and strike them. Each have separate flames, but both are the "same" fire.
Storm Nordwind: If one was a magnesium flare instead, would they still be the same fire?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Provided, the matches are from the same box. ;)
Storm Nordwind: Ah ok!
Lawrence Vyceratops: back in 1.5 minutes...
Storm Nordwind: I will have to leave very soon actually
Lawrence Vyceratops: Ok.
Storm Nordwind: The two fires may have the same qualities (or 'nature' as Fael said earlier), but are you considering them to be the same entity?
Lawrence Vyceratops: And the distinction is merely in the seperation in time and space?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, obviously, there is a distinction in the mind, between one fire and another.
Storm Nordwind: So what leads you to drop that separation? And potentially all other separations?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, the fact that the two fires are the same, or that two humans are the same, save for superficial differences.
Storm Nordwind: So it is, what you might feel is, a rational or logical deduction, rather than a result of some other practice?
--BELL--
Lawrence Vyceratops: Practice?
Storm Nordwind: I use the term very loosely! Could include anything that does not rely on linear or rational thought.

Does the same stimulus mean the same experience?

Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, when I touch fire, it seems to be a very personal experience; that is, to say, that it burns me and I feel that very intimately. However, when another is burned, surely, they experience the same pain. They respond similarly - they get away from the fire.
Storm Nordwind: Not necessarily
Lawrence Vyceratops: But the brain is designed the same.
Lawrence Vyceratops: As is the body.
Storm Nordwind: But the experience may be quite different
Lawrence Vyceratops: Sure, the superficial difference, which is, our likes and dislikes, our past personal experiences, and so on.
Storm Nordwind: More than that. It can hurt one and not the other. Even the same person in one lifetime. Take for instance the less burn of a chili pepper. I feel no pain with that now, though I did once, as a child. For some, that pain never mellows. For others it is not a burn to run away from even at the start. This is more than like or dislike surely?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, that is a tolerance that is built up to exposure. That would be a difference in experience, and also there are slight differences in each human body, but we all easily identify one another as human beings.
Lawrence Vyceratops: You would not call one of us a koala bear, unless metaphorically.
Storm Nordwind: I might call you a sentient being, whatever appearance you had. (Often a variable thing in Second Life!) :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: Ok, so if we are sentient beings, we much have some things in common.
Lawrence Vyceratops: This identifies us as such.

So if there is commonality, how about the good stuff too?

Storm Nordwind: And how about the ability to be thoroughly peaceful and happy? If I can do it, how about everyone else? And why do they choose not to be? Is it simply that education is required?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Perhaps.
Lawrence Vyceratops: What can we do about that?
Storm Nordwind: If you know how, please teach people! :)
Storm Nordwind: And find ways to motivate them to listen :)
Storm Nordwind: And, of course, put into practice :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, that would be more productive than marking them up with tattoos! haha
Storm Nordwind missed the tattoo reference :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: I'm a tattooer, by trade.
Storm Nordwind: Ah I see!

"Why do people not see things as I see them?"

Lawrence Vyceratops: Why are people not concerned with crises of the world?
Storm Nordwind: Why do you think?
Lawrence Vyceratops: I don't know. I talk to people every day and they seem so uninterested.
Storm Nordwind: Do you think perhaps they only have so much capacity to hurt on other people's behalf? Perhaps their attention is taken up by their own many woes?
Lawrence Vyceratops: People do tend to be concerned mainly with their own being...
Storm Nordwind: It is their world!
Lawrence Vyceratops: There doesn't seem to be much recognition of others, except what they see as themselves.
Lawrence Vyceratops: And, perhaps, it's that we don't see one another as we see ourselves.
--BELL--
Lawrence Vyceratops: Which, I think, is very similar.
Storm Nordwind: Most people don't even know how to solve their own problems. They haven't discovered or have not yet been taught. That kind of person (and i suspect they are in the majority) may naturally think "How could I help others when I can't even help myself?"
Storm Nordwind: It is not that these people are necessarily without compassion. It is that they are simply without the knowledge.
Lawrence Vyceratops: Communication, I think is a big problem. We each have our own concepts and understandings of concepts, it's very difficult to see eye-to-eye, or on the same ground.
Lawrence Vyceratops: If we could see more eye-to-eye, the knowledge would come more easily.
Lawrence Vyceratops: Too much confusion...

But with all that claimed commonality, how come?

Storm Nordwind: But, according to you, it should be easy to see eye-to-eye if the differences are only superficial (?)
Lawrence Vyceratops: It seems. haha ;)

We adjourn!
Lawrence Vyceratops: I have to go...
Lawrence Vyceratops: ...mark people up! :)
Storm Nordwind: OK. Delighted to chat with you. Please feel free to drop in another time
Lawrence Vyceratops: Thank you. I will.
Storm Nordwind: Wonderful. Bye for now!
Lawrence Vyceratops: Goodbye.
Storm Nordwind waves

2010.02.11 13:00 - just a thursday 1 pm
../../../Chat_Logs/2010/02/2010.02.11_19%3a00_-_Dialog_and_Discussion_based_on_a_simple_practice_of_awareness%e2%80%a6

The Guardian for this meeting was Yakuzza Lethecus. The comments are by Yakuzza Lethecus.

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey liza
Liza Deischer: hey Yaku
--BELL--
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye, the way, where are you from ?
Liza Deischer: Holland
Yakuzza Lethecus: germany here
Liza Deischer: if that is what you mean
Liza Deischer: yes I know
Liza Deischer: there are some germans around her
Yakuzza Lethecus: so are ppl from the netherlands :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: i am curious what pema feels like :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: japanese/us/netherlandish or just cosmopolitan :D
Liza Deischer: I have no idea?
Liza Deischer: I do talk Dutch with him though
Liza Deischer: and he still speaks it very well
Liza Deischer: and sometimes we speak about really Dutch things
Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, he got a nice dutch accent in his language :)
Liza Deischer: wich is nice
Yakuzza Lethecus: his english
Liza Deischer: yes, very :-)
Liza Deischer: I heard him talking at a time workshop
Liza Deischer: he sounded like he just moved out of Holland :-)
Liza Deischer: but to his generation, somehow they articulate not as well as younger generations
Yakuzza Lethecus: it's really an advantage that not even all movies are with subtitles right away in the nl
Liza Deischer: yes, I feal that as an adventage
Liza Deischer: It is easier to get a grip on a language
Liza Deischer: hungry?
Liza Deischer: np
Liza Deischer: ah, okay
Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
Liza Deischer: it was just funny
Liza Deischer: but I think pema has become much of an american
Yakuzza Lethecus: i don't know much about what it means to be american
Yakuzza Lethecus: actually i don't even try to understand what it means to be german :P
Liza Deischer: :-)
Liza Deischer: maybe that is the best thing to do
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey eliza
Liza Deischer: hey eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ya, Liza :))
Liza Deischer: but Americans do have a enthousiasm that is hard to imagine with a Dutchman
Yakuzza Lethecus: and hey cal
Liza Deischer: hey cal
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cal :)
Eliza Madrigal: Does anyone mind my lowering the fountain?
Liza Deischer: so I think he fits well in that society :-)
Liza Deischer: now, that's ok
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks :)
Eliza Madrigal: I like to have a wide view which encompasses everyone :)
Liza Deischer: you look......
Liza Deischer: very elfish, I guess
Liza Deischer: and beautful made
Eliza Madrigal: :) Thank you... I do think the person who made this is talented
Liza Deischer: beatirully
Liza Deischer: yes
Eliza Madrigal: Calvnio must be in love... there are hearts emanating from him
Liza Deischer: then he is in love for a longer time
Bleu Oleander: hi!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu!
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Liza Deischer: hie Bleu
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey bleu
Liza Deischer: somehow that feels like to be in contradition with the bald head and the 'tough guy'
Eliza Madrigal: haha, yes I'm thinking the juxtopositions are intentional?
Calvino Rabeni: "Do I contradict myself? ... I contain multitudes" in the words of an american bard
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Liza Deischer: Justopostions?
Liza Deischer: juxto
Calvino Rabeni: Not "justification-positions" :)

Eliza Madrigal: odd angles all working against and yet with

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: More like "just-this-o-positions"
Liza Deischer: ok thanks
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol :) How are you doing?
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey wol, anyone made an obervation he would like to share ?
Liza Deischer: hi Wol
Bleu Oleander: hi Wol
Wol Euler: hello everyone, sorry I'm late
Calvino Rabeni: :) the word juxtapositions means "things set next to one another"
Yakuzza Lethecus: you'll never be late :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Wol Euler: yeah, yeah, "there is no time" :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: or you just adapted yourself to the maltese culture :)
Eliza Madrigal: Actually Yakuzza, today I did find myself on a long walk, contemplating 'appreciations' today
Eliza Madrigal: (strike one today-heh)
Eliza Madrigal: many todays in one day
Eliza Madrigal: What I noticed, was that getting quiet one can make out distinctions at finer and finer levels... all of which can open up...
Wol Euler: hello fael
Liza Deischer: right
Fael Illyar: Hi Everyone :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi fael
Calvino Rabeni: That is good to see, Eliza
Bleu Oleander: hi Fael
Eliza Madrigal: and not just in what is seen but felt and heard... like cold, warm, breeze, skin, etc
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fael :)
Liza Deischer: hi fael
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, Fael, Dazzling :)
Wol Euler: indeed
Eliza Madrigal: :))))
Bleu Oleander: impressive!
Calvino Rabeni: @@ dizzy @@
Fael Illyar: You too Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: We look like we're from the same hometown now...
Wol Euler: :)
Eliza Madrigal: but I have no fancy tricks... hehe
Fael Illyar: well, aren't we? :P
Eliza Madrigal: :)))
Eliza Madrigal: Indeed
Eliza Madrigal: Well, anyway, so the walk itself was showing me so many things... like 'what is it like to be ground with someone walking on it?" and "Can I really appreciate something and yet not mind if it leaves?"
Eliza Madrigal: It was interesting... all rather unintended. :)
Fael Illyar just returned from the movie theater watching Avatar.
Eliza Madrigal: OOOooh... you hadn't seen it Fael?
Fael Illyar: nope :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Fael Illyar: best movie ever!
Bleu Oleander: fun, wasn't it?
Wol Euler: :)
Calvino Rabeni: I'm thinking of Eliza's distinctions, with a new emphasis, and a little help from friends
Fael Illyar: (and yes, this is the first time I say that I think)
Calvino Rabeni: There are things "in the air" related to trust and to discrimination
Eliza Madrigal: I noticed the avatarness of body while walking too...
Eliza Madrigal: and did consider the film... how he reacted when first seeing the skin he'd get to step into...
Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, thats why the chinese restricted the movie @ cal
Fael Illyar: the chinese restricted Avatar?
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Wol Euler: by declaring htat it could only be shown in 3d equipped cinemas
Wol Euler: of which there are roughly seven in China
Eliza Madrigal: Ah =/
Eliza Madrigal: What do you mean Cal, "with help from friends"?
Fael Illyar: mmkay... they clearly don't want it to be seen.
Calvino Rabeni: Oh, friends are a kind of oracle - I listen to the sub text of what they are saying, kind of read between the lines
Calvino Rabeni: if several of them are talking about a theme, then it is "in the air" and I take it as a message
Fael Illyar: but the 3d effect was neat :)
Calvino Rabeni: for something for me to look at
Wol Euler nods
Wol Euler: crowdsourcing your attention :)
Eliza Madrigal: hm... yes that is definitely what I noticed today... in between... that space has a kind of charge
Calvino Rabeni: Like trust and discrimination were themes in peoples' discussions
Calvino Rabeni: And I realized - same in me too
Eliza Madrigal: hm, interesting
Fael Illyar: the current wave in the global mind ;)
Calvino Rabeni: SO I call that "help from friends" to become aware of a signiificance I might have discounted
Calvino Rabeni: because it floats around with all the other possibilities and chatter that are in the mind and imagination
Calvino Rabeni: @fael, yes
Eliza Madrigal: friends in the inbetween... I suppose that fits well with the film, too....
Calvino Rabeni: the collective mind
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Fael Illyar: Hello Pegaso :)
Pegaso Zadark: hello
Liza Deischer: hello Pegaso
Calvino Rabeni: and some traditions think there are spirit guides with intelligence - I'm western so I don't say that, but I kind of know what it means

Wol Euler: welcome to SL, born today :)

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: non-distributed intelligence
Mickorod Renard: :)
Calvino Rabeni: (I meant "distributed intelligence, not-me & not-you)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey, pegaso/mick
Liza Deischer: hi mick
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick!
Wol Euler: hello mick
Mickorod Renard: Hiya Guys
Yakuzza Lethecus: right click on a pillow and sit down pegaso
Mickorod Renard: n gals
Bleu Oleander: hi Mick
Eliza Madrigal: It is an interesting idea Calvino
Mickorod Renard: watzz the topic?
Eliza Madrigal considers
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Pegaso :)
Pegaso Zadark: ciao
Eliza Madrigal: Hm, Mick. the intelligent space between, and Avatar :)
Wol Euler: ((could somebody else give pegaso an introduction, please, I'm just too tired))
Mickorod Renard: grin,,not sure i understand
Mickorod Renard: ok
Pegaso Zadark: i don't speak english
Pegaso Zadark: sorry
Mickorod Renard: Hi Pegaso, i will im you to save disturbing the chat
Mickorod Renard: oops
Mickorod Renard: italian?
Pegaso Zadark: yes
Mickorod Renard: french?
Mickorod Renard: ok
Wol Euler: heh, where's Ara when you need her?
Eliza Madrigal: Navi?
Mickorod Renard: anyone speak italian?
Yakuzza Lethecus: ah, i just posted everything in english for him :)
Mickorod Renard: ara will arrive soon i am suere
Yakuzza Lethecus: so that might haven't been the best idea :)
Liza Deischer: somebody having a translator
Wol Euler: yes, but they only work in open chat, not IM :(
Liza Deischer: oh
Mickorod Renard: ahh
Eliza Madrigal: He'll figure it out I hope... maybe  the visitor center he was born in...
Liza Deischer: I guess he draw hi own conlusios
Eliza Madrigal: Sure :)
Mickorod Renard: so,,can anyone elaborate on the topic please?
Mickorod Renard: he he
Eliza Madrigal: Let me give you a note, Mick :) One sec
Mickorod Renard: cheers
Wol Euler: sorry, I'm really too tired for this today. I'm going to go home and vegetate a little. Goodnight my dears.
Mickorod Renard: nite nite Wol
Bleu Oleander: nite Wol
Yakuzza Lethecus: night wol
Eliza Madrigal: Nite Wol (( )) Rest well
Fael Illyar: hm.. come to think of it, I'm rather tired.
Fael Illyar: I'll follow Wol :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) Nite Fael
Liza Deischer: bye fael
Bleu Oleander: bye Fael
Fael Illyar: Have fun everyone :)
Eliza Madrigal watches Fael swim home....
Yakuzza Lethecus: nite fael
Liza Deischer: and there is ara
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey ara
Liza Deischer: hi Ara
Yakuzza Lethecus: you are a bit too late :)
arabella Ella: Hiya everyone!
Bleu Oleander: hi Ara
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ara :)
arabella Ella: late?
Mickorod Renard: hi ara
Eliza Madrigal: Anyway Mick, not really a topic, just sharing
Yakuzza Lethecus: we just had an italian visitor :)
Mickorod Renard: ok,,just reading
Yakuzza Lethecus: but we couldn't help him since he wasn't able to understand english :)
arabella Ella: oh
arabella Ella: he he
arabella Ella: doesnt anyone here speak italian?
Eliza Madrigal: We were tongue typing tied
arabella Ella smiles
Calvino Rabeni: I have to go soon - to a "playshop" in RL :)
arabella Ella: sounds cool Calvino
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, what a neat idea... what kind of playshop?
Calvino Rabeni: http://www.meetup.com/Playformation/
Eliza Madrigal: writers shop?
Calvino Rabeni: Play As Transformation
Eliza Madrigal: Hmmm... is this the first time you've attended?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, of this venur
Calvino Rabeni: venue I mean
Calvino Rabeni: But I like the "play" idea as a way to pursue out-of-the-box knowledge
Eliza Madrigal: When I was little, staying after school, we would play this game where everyone put their head on someone else's stomach... and began a kind of laughing... First, one "ha", then around the circle... then "ha ha"... it was often so fun
Eliza Madrigal: :) Why not
Eliza Madrigal: Good for health, so they say

Eliza Madrigal notices the deafening silence .. hehe

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni slips out quietly - take care all beings
Liza Deischer: bye Cl
arabella Ella: bye Calvino enjoy!
Mickorod Renard: bye Cal
arabella Ella: this is a very quiet crowd here tonight!
Mickorod Renard: I found myself getting a bi out of sorts today,,I needed to take time out and get back into a better frame of mind
Eliza Madrigal: Yes, odd
Eliza Madrigal: How so, Mick?
Mickorod Renard: yes, cos I have been ok since halfwy through the retreat
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, maybe beginning to feel a bit of the tension between retreat mode and real life?
Mickorod Renard: I guess it was a culmination of little things,,just frustrating me
arabella Ella: so what did you do Mick to get back into a better frame of mind?
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes after peaks we can feel dropped a little :)
Mickorod Renard: just stop,,reverse myself out from the wrong track I was taking,,nd then start again
Eliza Madrigal: :)
arabella Ella: I was reading about Tibetan Buddhism today and how pain and suffering are a necessary part of life
Mickorod Renard: sometimes its that simple
Eliza Madrigal nods and smiles
Mickorod Renard: yes maybe,,we need contrast
arabella Ella: i bought an old book called 'Secret Tibet' written by an Italian (second hand) and it is a gem
arabella Ella: he traveled to Tiber in late 40s
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, wonderful Ara
arabella Ella: Tibet
Liza Deischer: what were yu thinking while reading the book ara?
arabella Ella: yes it is a translation in English but very well written and so interesting
arabella Ella: i was thinking there is so much i would like to do, to learn, .... to drop too
Eliza Madrigal: Tibetans also are very conscious that the body should be engaged in practice... breaks down a sense of ego I guess to do prostrations and such...
Liza Deischer: it does
Mickorod Renard: its funny how we spend so much of our lives learning what we think is important,,then the latter part trying to drop it all
arabella Ella: yes i guess so but the author goes back to the origin of Buddhism and explains a lot of stuff in a clear manner
Liza Deischer: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: guess it is a bit of why 'suffering' are seen as necessary too
Eliza Madrigal nods@ Mick :)))
arabella Ella: the book also brings to mind parallels amongst some major world religions
Mickorod Renard: yes, i can imagine thats interesting
Liza Deischer: and how did you feel about the suffering part?
Eliza Madrigal has definitely gone through a long season of accumulating, and is now shedding
arabella Ella: I think suffering is a necessary part of life
Liza Deischer: can you say more Ara?
arabella Ella: it is how we approach suffering and pain that matters most
Eliza Madrigal nods
Mickorod Renard: is much of the suffering , suffering what we may loose of our material things?
Eliza Madrigal: yes we can attach suffering onto places it doesn't need to be... expectations, comparisons, wrong measurements
arabella Ella: it could be physical suffering too Mick
arabella Ella: illness, old age, etc too
Eliza Madrigal nods
arabella Ella: but as the English expression goes, life is what you make it
Mickorod Renard: physical suffering is perhaps something we could all do to avoid if pos
arabella Ella: i dont think it is avoidance which is key
arabella Ella: it is our whole approach to life and to suffering that is important
Liza Deischer: I don't think so either
arabella Ella: sometimes it is inevitable
Eliza Madrigal: A few brilliant and incredibly clear/vibrant friends and teachers are suffering with illness right now... and they seem to make it material wherever they can
Mickorod Renard: but some physical suffering can also be due to our attachment to material things
arabella Ella: should we be so attached to material things Mick so as to make them cause us suffering?
arabella Ella: so sorry to hear about your friends Eliza, very sad
Mickorod Renard: stress in the western world is often down to wanting to have high income and so forth
Eliza Madrigal: yes, difficult certainly
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Ara
arabella Ella: do you know any people in the Western world or elsewhere Mick who are content as they have achieved their goal of a high income? Would that be sufficient?
arabella Ella: I dont think so ... there is then often greed for more
arabella Ella: and no time to enjoy the simple pleasures of life
Mickorod Renard: yes,,this is what I meant
Eliza Madrigal: Hm... well this is where the appreciation comes in....
Mickorod Renard: I am guilty of greed and have been more guilty of it in the past
Eliza Madrigal: one can be satisfied with so much less than we think
Yakuzza Lethecus sneakes to bed, cya tomorrow
Eliza Madrigal: Nite Ya :)
arabella Ella: nite Yaku
Liza Deischer: nite Yaku
Mickorod Renard: nite Yaku..gud to c u
arabella Ella: well Eliza I got to see part of the chat log and seems like you went for a walk today

arabella Ella: i went for a walk yesterday and it was such a lovely peaceful experience

--BELL--

arabella Ella: it was lovely to get wet in the drizzle
Bleu Oleander: see you all
arabella Ella: bye Bleu
Liza Deischer: bye Bleu
Mickorod Renard: bye Blue
Mickorod Renard: what is so precious is so often free
Eliza Madrigal: :) That walk was 'worth' a lot more than things I've fretted over not having ... deeply satisfying
arabella Ella: mine too :)
Eliza Madrigal: Funny what we sometims shield ourselves from... drops of water...
arabella Ella: with a few glimpses of amazing rainbows too
Eliza Madrigal smiles... sounds like Malta is full of rainbows :)
arabella Ella: well when it rains in winter there is often the sun over part of the island too, hence rainbows
arabella Ella: (not always though but often enough)
Mickorod Renard: I am determined to take full advantage of what I have available for free,,especially the countryside , thoughts,,and so forth
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, love that phrasing Mick....
arabella Ella smiles
Mickorod Renard: and also I am willing to give for free my love to anyone who would like some
Eliza Madrigal: we can slow down and appreciate the space between thoughts, too... becomes like a flowing along....
arabella Ella: i walked alone for just over an hour in the countryside and the peacefulness was amazing as was the great feeling i got as a result
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Liza Deischer: :-)
Liza Deischer: your tellig us a lot of nice things Ara, as Eliza is
arabella Ella: and to add to that there were lots of ancient burial sites in caves and other prehistoric monuments just lying there and triggering my imagination
arabella Ella: ty Liza
Eliza Madrigal: Ara... that is one thing I was greatly inspired by, in talks of the retreat...
Eliza Madrigal: I have such a fascination with caves...
arabella Ella: even the smell of the wild thyme was invigorating
arabella Ella: it grows everywhere this time of the year
Eliza Madrigal: MMMM
arabella Ella: and the wild fennel standing high like sentinels
Mickorod Renard: rosemary and lavenda is nice too
Eliza Madrigal smiles.... I can feel the space in your appreciations...
arabella Ella: then i came across a wonder ... a lonely wild bitter almond tree in full blossom
Mickorod Renard: heather on the moors
Mickorod Renard: wow,,nice
arabella Ella: i had to touch the soft petals which were wet with rain but such lovely texture
Eliza Madrigal: MM, sighs
arabella Ella: and the colours ...
Mickorod Renard: when we were children,,stuff like that was great
arabella Ella: the pale pink flowers with crimson in the centre
arabella Ella: we are still children Mick
Mickorod Renard: I am becoming a child again
arabella Ella: (at least i am)
Mickorod Renard: yes
Eliza Madrigal: "yes we are" says the fairy
arabella Ella smiles to the fairy
Mickorod Renard: I want to do things like feel stickibuds,,and pussy willows
arabella Ella: (although I see you are more of an angel Eliza)
Eliza Madrigal thinks of the rainbows the sprinklers would make when I ran through them as a child....
arabella Ella: how lovely
Mickorod Renard: yeaaaa
Eliza Madrigal smiles @Ara :) Thank you
arabella Ella: as i said yesterday (I think) when i stopped on a stone bench to meditate during my walk my attention was caught by sprinklers which looked so lovely which each drop visible as spray in the air ... together with the soft rain
arabella Ella: the water from the sprinklers literally created dances in the air
Mickorod Renard: I havea thin aboutwater
Eliza Madrigal: :))))
Eliza Madrigal: Water is nurturing for you Mick?
Mickorod Renard: yes
Mickorod Renard: its so special
arabella Ella: Mick is an Aquarian ... makes sense right?
Mickorod Renard: I love it more now than anytime in my life
Eliza Madrigal: water is inspiring.... maybe now you are able to linger with it Mick...
Mickorod Renard: yes
Mickorod Renard: and more
Mickorod Renard: I sense water is living,,and the drops are like lovely inteligent creatures
arabella Ella: like the waves (wild horses) Mick which we could see in the distance during the retreat
arabella Ella: forever changing patterns
arabella Ella: and the clouds too
Mickorod Renard: yes,,water plying as horses
Eliza Madrigal: life is a wonder
Mickorod Renard: water playing as clouds
arabella Ella: an infinite variety of patterns
Eliza Madrigal: When I began to get older, I would look at the work that went into the gardens and house where I grew up ... and not really understand the value... not connect the myriad surprises around the corners as having been placed there thoughtfully...
arabella Ella: Eliza will you be joining us for the i ching session on Monday?
Mickorod Renard: water is sacred to many religions too
arabella Ella: how lovely Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Ara, I admit I've not done much in the way of reading....
arabella Ella: yes and symbolic too
Mickorod Renard: yes nice Eliza
arabella Ella: well Eliza most of us I guess have not done much and part of the purpose of the meeting is to help us to get going again ... i hope
Eliza Madrigal: so I'm not sure. I stay on the list in hopes that it might weave together at some point
arabella Ella nods
Eliza Madrigal: but lots going on :)
arabella Ella: yes i understand
Mickorod Renard: there is no pressure Eliza,,I too have only touched on I ching a lil
arabella Ella: it would be great if you could make it though as Pila would like it mainly to be for novices
Mickorod Renard: like me
arabella Ella: (not sure whether you are a novice too ... well)
Eliza Madrigal: There is a little teaching Eckhart Tolle gives, where he says "You have never really experienced water"... and he goes on to talk about how our minds are always onto the 'next thing'...
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, I definitely know nothing about iching :)
arabella Ella: ah ... join the rest of us then!
arabella Ella: i must admit i know very little too
Eliza Madrigal: Okay, will certainly try. :) Thanks for the encouragement
arabella Ella: but i am curious to learn more
arabella Ella: :)

Mickorod Renard: if nothing else, I want to let the rolling of coins be more important in routine than some of the other things in my life

--BELL--

Mickorod Renard: it will be like a 9 second break
Eliza Madrigal: What I generally tend to feel about 'signs', is that they are everywhere... and that it is a comfort to train in seeing them to a certain extent... and then there is also a point at which signs open up... are sheer...
arabella Ella: yes
arabella Ella: ? are sheer ?
Eliza Madrigal: so sometimes I hesitate to pay attention intentionally, because I may romanticize and get a bit stuck....
Mickorod Renard: yes, i think i can understand that Eliza
arabella Ella: do you mean it is important to maintain a sort of balance Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: Hm, yes sheer... like when you are noticing the loveliness of sensations and it all becomes kind of soft and noticeably transient
Mickorod Renard: I want to change my ,,rut,,and the i ching may help me there
Eliza Madrigal: Yes, very much so Ara :) And to know ourselves/tendencies
arabella Ella: yes
Eliza Madrigal nods... it is definitely interesting....
arabella Ella: altho i feel signs are very important
Eliza Madrigal: and Pila is a good teacher
arabella Ella: yes he certainly is very knowledgeable and very sensitive too
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: Pila was one of my first PaB friends... have always taken a lot of comfort in him :)
arabella Ella: how lovely
arabella Ella: I respect Pila very much myself
Mickorod Renard: yes,,he is a great guy
Eliza Madrigal nods
arabella Ella: and he has so much patience with everyone
Eliza Madrigal: Indeed :) I still go back and read his paper about the light winds...
Liza Deischer: thank you for the lovely evening
arabella Ella: nite Liza
Liza Deischer: but I'm going
Liza Deischer: cu
arabella Ella: the light winds?
Mickorod Renard: nite nite Liza
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Liza :)
Mickorod Renard: take care
Eliza Madrigal: May I ask how you find signs important Ara?
arabella Ella: i think some signs are messages ... and it is up to us to take them as such ... or to just not notice
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: I relate to that.. tend to be a real pattern maker...
arabella Ella: and ... the older i get ... the more i tend to relate to synchronicity ...
arabella Ella: so many things seem to happen for a purpose
Eliza Madrigal: I guess lately I'm trying not to 'make' the patterns but rather just notice... so I guess like anything it is 'how' we see?
Eliza Madrigal: OH, Yes I definitely agree Ara
arabella Ella: but the purpose is like an opportunity and it is up to us to recognise it
arabella Ella: sometimes we cannot help making the patters ... our mind helps us to recognise them
arabella Ella: and some people are better at recognising patterns than others
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, Mick fell off
Eliza Madrigal: The i ching is very technical...
arabella Ella: Mick crashed
arabella Ella: do you really think the i ching is technical?
Eliza Madrigal: do you find it that way? that it takes a bit to understand, or can it be understood intuitively?
Eliza Madrigal: well, from outside it seems technical
arabella Ella: what worries me about it is that our imagination may be a bit too free to interpret it as we wish
arabella Ella: with little or no constraints
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, interesting
arabella Ella: that is my only concern so far
arabella Ella: like when reading a horoscope ... we put our meaning into it ... sometimes a bit too much
Eliza Madrigal nods...
Eliza Madrigal: When we were talking about Storm's Kuan Yin oracle, what I thought about is that
Eliza Madrigal: each having been sculpted as a poem there is a sense of space...
arabella Ella: oh i would love to visit Storm's oracle
Eliza Madrigal: Want to go now? I can go and teleport you...
arabella Ella: i was just about to ask you if you had a few minutes to spare :)
arabella Ella: that would be lovely thanks!
Eliza Madrigal: :) Sure.. let me find the link
arabella Ella: ok

2010.02.11 19:00 -"Dialogue and Discussion Based on a Simple Practice of Awareness" & "Malta Almond Cookies /

First Taste Still Sticks Embedded / In No-Time Fullness
../../../Chat_Logs/2010/02/2010.02.12_01%3a00_-_Spinoff%2c_or_Belief_in_bad_in_oneself

2010.02.12 01:00 - Spinoff, or Belief in bad in oneself
../../../Chat_Logs/2010/02/2010.02.12_07%3a00_-_Fault_Lines_and_Illusions

2010.02.12 07:00 - Fault Lines and Illusions
../../../Chat_Logs/2010/02/2010.02.12_13%3a00_-_silence_and_non_presence

2010.02.12 13:00 - silence and non presence
../../../Chat_Logs/2010/02/2010.02.12_19%3a00_-_The_Niceness_is_Not_the_Turtle

2010.02.12 19:00 - The Niceness is Not the Turtle

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal, filling in for Genesis. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal who was joined by Paradise, Eos, Calvino, and Alanya, for this session in which we talk of love, boxes, empathy, mirrors, and knowing, and...

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Paradise!
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: It has been forever since I've seen you :)
Paradise Tennant: smiles hello elliza .. so good to seey you :)
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Paradise Tennant: how have you been :)
Eliza Madrigal: Quite well, thanks. You? Are just back from travelling? I know you extended your trip beyond retreat...
Paradise Tennant: yes .. spent some time in sicily and rome before coming home .. great trip :) but happy to be home:)
Eliza Madrigal: Must be a good feeling... and missed your puppy I'm sure
Paradise Tennant: lol yes indeed :) there was much puppy love to be had when I got in :)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Paradise Tennant: hard to be away from what we love .. love is such a strong attachment :)
Eliza Madrigal: Indeed!
Eliza Madrigal: It IS that... isn't it...
Paradise Tennant: yes .. somehow I always find the buddhist concept that you eventually have to drop even the very good stuff very hard really
Eliza Madrigal: There is a quote that strikes at some deep place in me... have no real inkling why... "Better to be known than loved"
Paradise Tennant: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hm, yes...
Eliza Madrigal: I think it is along the lines of knowing that even a nice box is still a box
Paradise Tennant: yes that is an interesting quote thank you for sharing it ..
Eos Amaterasu: Hi E, P, A
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Paradise Tennant: hiya eos .. cal :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Eos :) You look fancy!
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Cal
Eliza Madrigal: Hey Arch
Paradise Tennant: hiya arch
Eliza Madrigal: nice boxes = pedestals... which seem like a good idea but hm, not so much
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Archmage Atlantis: Only by being known, can one be truely loved
Calvino Rabeni: hello all !
Eos Amaterasu: ciao'all
Archmage Atlantis: brb
Paradise Tennant: ;)
Paradise Tennant: hmm ... even a nice box is a box... appearances as confinement ...
Eliza Madrigal: yes... and the confining might even be called love/appreciation... not sure :)
Eos Amaterasu: the niceness is not the turtle
Paradise Tennant: a:)
Paradise Tennant: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Oh Eos... your enigmatic phrases....
Paradise Tennant: still blinking
Eos Amaterasu: :-) ellipses
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Archmage Atlantis: ugh, nothing is working to night
Eos Amaterasu: What was that quote you were referring to?
Eliza Madrigal: Actually.... I read it on my 39th birthday... and it was written by a model... "It is better to be known than loved"...
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: she may have picked it up from somewhere... but it struck me
Calvino Rabeni: With Boxing Day, is it packging or pugilism, or what ?
Paradise Tennant: love is .. also a way of being .. I think
Eos Amaterasu:

That love is all

And love is everyone

It is knowing

It is knowing

Paradise Tennant: to be experienced
Paradise Tennant: lovely eos thank you
Eos Amaterasu: (thank the Beatles)
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Eliza Madrigal: :) Knowing does seem more intimate
Paradise Tennant: [19:04] Eliza Madrigal: There is a quote that strikes at some deep place in me... have no real inkling why... "Better to be known than loved"
Eos Amaterasu: truth is greater intimacy?
Paradise Tennant: what we were chatting about when you arrived eos
Eliza Madrigal: yes...
Eliza Madrigal: or maybe a different more timeless sort...

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: what is "knowing", then?

Mirrors..

Paradise Tennant: hmmm there are as many ways to define love as ways of being .. I think it is like a mirror...
Eliza Madrigal: Maybe knowing makes room for someone... could be called love...
Eliza Madrigal: Like a mirror paradise?
Eos Amaterasu finds himself inside a mirror paradise
Paradise Tennant: yes ..
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Paradise Tennant: struggling to find the words for what I mean
Eos Amaterasu: mirror as in empathy?
Eliza Madrigal: interesting imagery errupts somehow....
Paradise Tennant: waht we love , our very selves , are all illusion , the a
Paradise Tennant: sorry was trying to delete
Eliza Madrigal: hm, that does seem one way of love empathy... expansiveness... reflecting and absorbing in a sense...
Paradise Tennant: in the very nature of emptyness .... I think there is room for love .. even if it only is mirror
Eliza Madrigal watches herself get carried away :))
Eos Amaterasu: similar to knowing, though, is it not (knowing also mirrors, crosses the me & that gap)
Paradise Tennant: yes
Eliza Madrigal: Getting to know that gap.... seems the gap becomes no gap.... or all gap....
Eos Amaterasu: love itself embodies its emptiness nature
Paradise Tennant: sorry sleepy .. so things are not processing right and fingers seem a little confused :)
Calvino Rabeni: Mirroring someone is much richer and more active than looking in an empty mirror like narcissus
Eliza Madrigal: That's my natural state Paradise! :)))
Calvino Rabeni: Being mirrored is to be expanded
Calvino Rabeni: better than love?
Eliza Madrigal: I suppose we were talking about conventional love...
Calvino Rabeni: If one has positive self knowledge, then is conventional love less attractive?
Paradise Tennant: romantic love not so much .. but appreciation ... profound acceptance ..reverence and the insight to cherish the uniqueness of what arises .. maybe is closer to the mark ?
Eliza Madrigal: yes, love AS letting go....
Eliza Madrigal: which allows for a richer moment perhaps
Eos Amaterasu: full acceptance, full presence, full absence (as in letting be)
Eliza Madrigal: :) yes.. a rare bird
Paradise Tennant: fullness of the moment .. has to somehow incorporate love I think
Eos Amaterasu: the moment is emptiness pregnant
Eos Amaterasu: no need to go elsewhere

From whence has beauty sweetness?...

Calvino Rabeni: beauty is said to have an element of the uncanny or a flaw of some kind - could it be the same with love?
Eliza Madrigal: interesting....
Calvino Rabeni: Isn't in love, a hint of tragedy to make it sweeter?
Eos Amaterasu: We often know it won't last
Eos Amaterasu: like smelling and looking at a rose
Eliza Madrigal: maybe that element of the uncanny/flaw is "the crack which lets the light in"... which makes touch-able.... YES, the hint of transience....
Eos Amaterasu: un canny
Eliza Madrigal: somehow a relief, even when excruciating
Eos Amaterasu: beyond knowing
Calvino Rabeni: If your beloved were perfect in every way, would that not be an impediment
Calvino Rabeni: And vice versa
Calvino Rabeni: If you were perfect in every way, love would have less to offer
Calvino Rabeni: maybe nothing
Calvino Rabeni: If there is perfection, it is in the transcendence of opposites
Calvino Rabeni: Or so say, some philosophers of love :)
Eos Amaterasu: sometimes love is left speechless

--BELL--

Paradise Tennant: ;) good timing eos
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Paradise Tennant: perhaps I can best express .. what I mean by saying that the deepest understanding comes through love ...
Eliza Madrigal: due to willingness to look deeper?
Eliza Madrigal: or impute good will? :)
Paradise Tennant: through bridging the illusory gaps
Eos Amaterasu: or share the ground of the other's being?
Eliza Madrigal: those sentences/phrases seem to overlap nicely...
Calvino Rabeni: know the other as oneself
Eos Amaterasu: sharing and recognizing the illusory gaps in each other
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: potential...
Eos Amaterasu: "that's my 9 secs" "that's your 9 secs"
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Eos Amaterasu: is that being known?

Eliza Madrigal feels her eyebrows uncrinkle... had been holding some stress :)
Eos Amaterasu is empathizing with eyebrows uncrinkling
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Eliza Madrigal: I was given a notecard last week... quoted Trungpa "Don't trust anyone"... talked about how we hold expectations, identities for others...
Eliza Madrigal: which doesn't allow for surprise, growth, change...
Eliza Madrigal: easy trap... especially if we fall 'in love' with aspects or qualities... and center on those...
Eos Amaterasu: that's back to the "good box" being still a box?
Eliza Madrigal: then, in doing that, we don't really get to know someone... just an aspect. Yes
Eliza Madrigal: :) golden cages are still cages
Eliza Madrigal: but reacting against potential cages all the time doesn't seem to help either... haha
Eliza Madrigal: Sigh :)
Eos Amaterasu: or, from the other direction, the bars may be empty but they are still gold
Paradise Tennant: true love embrasses the all -I suspect -without judgement-without bars :) ?
Eos Amaterasu: true like ice like fire : elemental and intense, bar none

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: :)

Aspiration...

Metta...

Paradise Tennant: ;) I have been doing aspiration sessions for the gun toting, dog abuser we encountered in Malta, at first with limited success because I just get so mad when I go there but lately .. much better focus and getting through my own judgement to the reality - he and i are on the most profound level absolutely the same
Eos Amaterasu: hmm
Eliza Madrigal: aspiration sessions?
Eliza Madrigal: metta?
Paradise Tennant: aspiration yes a kind of metta
Paradise Tennant: visualization
Eliza Madrigal: Ah
Eliza Madrigal: not so easy... I admire your attention to that...
Eos Amaterasu: That's great, paradise
Paradise Tennant: the same .. equally empty :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eos Amaterasu: equally enmeshed in karma
Eliza Madrigal: peel back enough layers and we're all just someone...
Eliza Madrigal: with yes... circumstances and priveleges and blessed people showing up in our lives....
Eliza Madrigal: we're fortunate when we can see it perhaps
Eos Amaterasu: feel all the circumstantiality but not feel trapped in it
Eliza Madrigal: 'The foolish are trapped by karma, while the wise are liberated through karma.' Stonepeace
Eliza Madrigal: (has no idea who or what stonepeace is) hehe
Eos Amaterasu: could be a thoughtless realm
Eliza Madrigal: hmm
Calvino Rabeni: It is difficult to do - to become the cruel person
Calvino Rabeni: And own the gun and whatever it is capable of
Eliza Madrigal: become the cruel person? Oh... I see what you are saying, yes.. to really step in to another view and consider it
Calvino Rabeni: Yes that is what I mean
Calvino Rabeni: To find total acceptance
Paradise Tennant: lol sigh yes
Calvino Rabeni: More than thinking - if I were him I would be better of course
Eliza Madrigal: We don't need to accept the way someone does something to be able to consider why they think they need to do it that way
Eos Amaterasu: that person is not "the cruel person" in their own eyes
Calvino Rabeni: Yes right eos
Eos Amaterasu: so becoming him is losing _your_ eyes
Calvino Rabeni: Losing little me yes
Eos Amaterasu: (without going crazy)
Calvino Rabeni: Which makes it a good practice
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Eliza Madrigal: ah, and trusting that one won't get stuck there... that the expansion will kick in....
Paradise Tennant: yes it does :)
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Paradise Tennant: counter balanced by the odd thought of dog napping :)
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :)

A visitor arrives, stays a long while, and Eos guides us into 9/90 second practice...  

Alanya Jinx: Hi
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Alanya :)
Paradise Tennant: hiya alanya
Eliza Madrigal: Welcome to PlayasBeing :))
Alanya Jinx: How are things here?
Eliza Madrigal: Have you visited us before, Alanya?
Alanya Jinx: no, first time here
Eliza Madrigal: :) Nice to meet you... I'll give you a notecard which tells a little about our group....
Alanya Jinx: Thanks
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: You've been in SL just a few weeks I see... Having fun?
Alanya Jinx: Yes, but I'm still trying to see what are the most interesting things to do here. I am bored or going somewhere and dancing!
Eliza Madrigal: haha, yes.. only so much dancing one can do
Eliza Madrigal: What are your interests, generally?
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, I need to ask if it is okay if I include you in the chat log. We record our sessions. :)
Alanya Jinx: Erm , I run, I like music, I read, travel adn I used to be into philosophy, but haven't had time for that lately.
Alanya Jinx: OK
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you :)
Eliza Madrigal: Great philosophy groups in SL actually... good discussions...
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes I think we fall into that category... maybe with a meditative edge
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eos Amaterasu: We try to directly experience reality, and talk about it
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eos Amaterasu: (and chew gum)
Eliza Madrigal: haha,, and blow bubbles
Eos Amaterasu: sometimes, indeed :-)
Alanya Jinx: Directly experience reality? Like emotions? Existential actions??
Eos Amaterasu: Anything whatsoever that comes up, while you're paying attention to it
Eliza Madrigal: Hm, interesting phrasing.... yes... like 'see what you see'... deeply notice...
Eos Amaterasu: A Play as Being "trick" is to say, for the next 9 seconds I will drop pushing anything, and just watch (for example)
Eos Amaterasu: Those are the "lab sessions"
Eliza Madrigal: It sounds funny at first... but surprisingly vibrant and rich ground to work with....
Eos Amaterasu: Shall we try it for 9 seconds?
Eliza Madrigal is game :)
Alanya Jinx: It sounds interesting. But I am having trouble understanding this.
Alanya Jinx: I will try
Eos Amaterasu: ok
Eliza Madrigal: yes... really only way to understand is just that... 'just try' :)
Eos Amaterasu: I will "ding" after 9 seconds
Eos Amaterasu: 3
Eos Amaterasu: 2
Eos Amaterasu: 1
Eos Amaterasu: go
Eos Amaterasu: ding
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Alanya Jinx: so it is like meditating?
Eos Amaterasu: Yes, you could say that (though meditating can mean many things)
Eos Amaterasu: but basically a kind of awareness, held loosely
Eliza Madrigal: Indeed, like meditating, and really looking into things ... and then sharing that experience/ comparing notes
Alanya Jinx: Being watchful, self aware. Tuned into self .
Eliza Madrigal: The imagery that comes to mind is goggles under water sometimes... at least for me :)
Paradise Tennant: precisely :)
Eliza Madrigal: So I noticed in our little pause together that I immediately smiled
Alanya Jinx: Were you deliberately trying to visualise
Eliza Madrigal: felt celebratory... that was the spontaneous reaction this time
Eliza Madrigal: Hm, sometimes we try to visualize... but mostly not I think ...
Eliza Madrigal: its funny :) That's why it is enjoyable to compare notes
Alanya Jinx: I felt aware of all the noise around me and how busy I felt ( too much coffee) :)
Eos Amaterasu: just allow to experience whatever comes up, not shying away from it, not pulling it or pushing it or sticking to it
Paradise Tennant: ;)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Alanya Jinx: This is a cool idea.
Eliza Madrigal: yes just 'seeing is enough'
Eliza Madrigal: Well nice that you joined us tonight :)
Eos Amaterasu: There's a 90 second break coming up (every 15 minutes)
Paradise Tennant: quietly excues herself .. fading here .. lovely to meet alanya ... good nite eliza, eos, cal , big wave from toronto :)
Eos Amaterasu: good night!
Eliza Madrigal: Nite Paradise... good to see you :)
Calvino Rabeni: bye para!
Eliza Madrigal: (groovy jeans) hehe
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Calvino, care to share observations from the 9 seconds?
Eliza Madrigal: 90 rather :))
Calvino Rabeni: the short one earlier got me started
Calvino Rabeni: sometimes I carry some worry or tension
Calvino Rabeni: during the 9-sec I felt my teeth, and then hot spot in chest
Calvino Rabeni: and then during the 90 sec later I started to relax and feel more reassured about the future
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Calvino Rabeni: because what is going on meanwhile is thinking about planning travel
Calvino Rabeni: which usually makes me a little irrationally worried
Calvino Rabeni: like I'm not relaxed until it is all planned out
Eliza Madrigal: details... yes easy to feel entangled there... nods
Calvino Rabeni: but this awareness thing, I could start to relax anyway
Calvino Rabeni: what a relief :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) we don't realize how much we're carrying all the time...
Eliza Madrigal: how much we pick up and drag around
Calvino Rabeni: i guess that is one handy use of the pause, but it is not the only significance of it
Eliza Madrigal: yes, so many of the practices here open up and show more dimensions with time... :))
Eliza Madrigal: Alanya, anything you think to share?
Calvino Rabeni: that is true
Alanya Jinx: I wish I hadn't had 2 coffees, because all I feel is a crazy bubbling energy inside me that probably doesn't reflect the real me, just the caffeine
Eliza Madrigal: Seeing the effect of the caffeine is something in itself I think...
Calvino Rabeni: :) been there :)
Eliza Madrigal: like it is separate.... on top of things....
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, "this is me on caffeine"
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Alanya Jinx: I know it is my vice
Eliza Madrigal relates :)
Calvino Rabeni: My drug of choice :)
Eliza Madrigal: And Eos? something to share?
Eos Amaterasu: Umm.... energy of witness, so to speak
Eliza Madrigal: hmm
Alanya Jinx: can you describe that?\
Eos Amaterasu: sometimes I feel an energy quality to just being there
Eliza Madrigal sways a little and smiles
Eos Amaterasu: it can come from when there's a lot of stuff going on, and you don't find a quiet place in that
Eos Amaterasu: but just witnessing, or staying with the observer of that, is an energized but actually still place
Eos Amaterasu: the caffeine is buzzing, but you're experiencing the caffeine buzzing
Alanya Jinx: now you are talking my language
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Eos Amaterasu: (or the bees in your head :-)
Calvino Rabeni: I find its possible to "take apart" the experience with awareness - there's a good part to the caffeine buzz, and a part I could let go of
Eliza Madrigal nods... yes
Eliza Madrigal: definitely something one begins to notice... distinct components...
Eliza Madrigal: really fascinating :)
Alanya Jinx: yes but I notice that it is hard for me to be still i want to race around
Calvino Rabeni: Like it has mixed emotions also, excitement, a feeling of capability, maybe some fear, maybe too much tunnel vision about something
Eos Amaterasu: how would you describe the good part of the caffeine buzz?
Eos Amaterasu: sometimes you get pulled by the flow, Alanya
Alanya Jinx: the good part is that it feels powerful energetic
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Eos Amaterasu: that's great!
Eliza Madrigal: like you can do more than you thought?
Alanya Jinx: the more coffee i have the more i can do but maybe i miss out by being so busy doing
Calvino Rabeni: But along with it comes some -too much attachment to things in a certain way - maybe, mechanical details or automatic patterns of thinking
Alanya Jinx: attachment I am not sure
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: hm, yes maybe the busyness to things actually dulls the experience of the present ...
Calvino Rabeni: By that I mean, a narrow concern with only certain aspects of whatever is going on. Less ability to be creative, more a feeling of "it must be some way"
Eos Amaterasu: it steals the energy of the present
Eliza Madrigal: I'd better sign off... have to get up quite early (and will be drinking large amounts of coffee). We're here four times a day though, Alanya...1,7,1,7 SLT.. hope you'll come back again. Pleasure to meet you. :)
Alanya Jinx: Bye Eliza
Alanya Jinx: Thanks
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for stopping by, Alanya
Eos Amaterasu: Also disappearing, good night, thank you Eliza, Cal, Alanya
Eliza Madrigal: Night Everyone. A Pleasure :))
Alanya Jinx: Bye Eos

Funny when we see ourselves. :)

From here Alanyna an Calvino discuss feeling at home, travel, etc...

Alanya Jinx: Guess what? I have just been offered a coffee. What do you think I said?
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks?
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Alanya Jinx: Yes, despite knowing I would be better without it I can't resist
Calvino Rabeni: Coffee is important to society too, it helps people get things done
Alanya Jinx: My excuse is that it is morning in my time zone.
Calvino Rabeni: Ah, not here
Alanya Jinx: True I drink more when I am working than when on holiday
Calvino Rabeni: I found green tea to have a smoother stimulation
Calvino Rabeni: If I really wanted to work on a project with sustained focus, I might use that
Calvino Rabeni: less buzzy
Alanya Jinx: Yes I had forgotten about green tea
Alanya Jinx: Jasmine green tea is god
Calvino Rabeni: Coffee has more of a kick
Calvino Rabeni: but worse when it wears off
Alanya Jinx: sometimes we need a kick
Alanya Jinx: when it wears off i just get sleepy which is ok
Calvino Rabeni: You never know what the discussion here will be
Calvino Rabeni: pretty wide ranging
Alanya Jinx: That's good. Did I miss anything interesting?
Calvino Rabeni: what are your interests ?
Calvino Rabeni: TO a certain degree it is possible to create a conversation here
Alanya Jinx: lol
Calvino Rabeni: to match whatever interests one has
Calvino Rabeni: since awareness basically can enliven almost any subject
Calvino Rabeni: but it isn't very often debate, or problem solving
Alanya Jinx: i like the unpredictable spontaneous nature of this
Calvino Rabeni: That it is
Calvino Rabeni: Like philosophy, meditation, and running - who has the time?
Calvino Rabeni: Unless they are all combined at the same time, which is possible
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Alanya Jinx: True
Calvino Rabeni: Many of my best thoughts were during long runs
Alanya Jinx: And caffeine and running are a match made in heaven!
Calvino Rabeni: You never know to look at people, they might be secretly meditating at the same time as doing some perfectly ordinary thing
Calvino Rabeni: Yes true
Calvino Rabeni: And even caffeine and meditating is not a bad mix
Calvino Rabeni: although the purists and traditional teachers might warn against it
Alanya Jinx: I like the runs when I have a lot on my mind and I forget I am running I am just thinking
Calvino Rabeni: Yeah, I love that too
Alanya Jinx: And the runs when I have great energy and I am not thinking at all
Calvino Rabeni: I especially like nature running
Calvino Rabeni: like on trails in mountain or forest
Alanya Jinx: Yes, me too, that is the best, but I seldom do it.
Calvino Rabeni: or mabye even cross-country, if the terrain allows it
Alanya Jinx: On holidays I always go exploring, trekking off somewhere, usually in flip flops.
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: To follow one's interest and impulses
Alanya Jinx: When I visit my mother there are some great runs on the sea front paths
Calvino Rabeni: Which part of the world?
Calvino Rabeni: In some places there are traditions of walking as a kind of a meditation of vision quest
Calvino Rabeni: I think I would like that
Calvino Rabeni: I suspect far back in many traditions the same can be found
Alanya Jinx: Yes sounds good. I am trying to think where? Celtic, druids??
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, and in the middle east, and in australia, and with native americans
Calvino Rabeni: I don't know of any "studies" of this specifically
Calvino Rabeni: but it seems common in cultures that are with nature
Alanya Jinx: Monks often go to extemes to contemplate
Calvino Rabeni: Now we do "web surfing" as a kind of similar thing :)
Calvino Rabeni: Yes they do
Alanya Jinx: Tell me how web surfing compares...
Calvino Rabeni: Just joking, mostly, about the web surfing. What it has in common is following impulses whereever they lead
Calvino Rabeni: but I don't think it has the transcendant quality
Alanya Jinx: Ok!
Calvino Rabeni: I do think, people need to wander and explore
Alanya Jinx: Yes, web surfing is more like watching tv
Calvino Rabeni: this is an instinct
Calvino Rabeni: But where one goes is important too
Calvino Rabeni: it needs to be to a place where there is some mystery
Alanya Jinx: I love wandering, it is the best thing. I don't lke to stay in the same place for too long.
Calvino Rabeni: and I don't think, TV and the web seem like places of mystery
Calvino Rabeni: because everything is programmed to be intelligible and automatic
Alanya Jinx: True and when I visit a new place, it can just be a new street, I feel switch on, intrigued
Calvino Rabeni: same here, it touches a deep need
Alanya Jinx: I am curious, where are you from inrl?
Alanya Jinx: in rl?
Calvino Rabeni: then after a while when it becomes known, I may feel a bit of sadness
Calvino Rabeni: West coast, USA
Calvino Rabeni: I move around different places
Alanya Jinx: For work?
Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes, but bad economy, I moved from a small town where economy is bad, now in a bigger city
Calvino Rabeni: But no specific place feels like home - although the American West does
Alanya Jinx: I have a job which means I can live pretty much anywhere in the world so the temptation is to keep moving
Calvino Rabeni: something online work?
Alanya Jinx: No ironically teaching
Calvino Rabeni: Oh, it is a skill needed most places
Alanya Jinx: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: What / who do you teach?
Alanya Jinx: I teach young children - British Curriculum at international schools
Alanya Jinx: And you?
Calvino Rabeni: technology, information mostly, lots of uses for that
Calvino Rabeni: but now I take contracts occasionally, not a salaried job
Calvino Rabeni: my free time is important, sometimes I'd travel
Calvino Rabeni: I don't so much want to be tied down
Calvino Rabeni: Although, maybe I should :)
Alanya Jinx: Yes it is hard to commit. And causes worry. I have to sign 2 year contracts which is exciting but worrying too
Calvino Rabeni: Do you travel different nations? Which have you liked?
Alanya Jinx: I'm in Thailand now and finding it hard to leave. Before that Taiwan which was incomprehensible.
Calvino Rabeni: Where in Thailand?
--BELL--
Alanya Jinx: Phuket
Calvino Rabeni: Where in Phuket ?
Alanya Jinx: Do you know Phuket
Calvino Rabeni: somewhat
Alanya Jinx: Tell me what you know first!
Calvino Rabeni: Not well though. But I wandered all over thailand - care to see pictures?
Calvino Rabeni: It's a great place
Alanya Jinx: Yes, of course
Calvino Rabeni: http://picasaweb.google.com/WyldMedia/Thailand#
Calvino Rabeni: The map markers show the locations
Calvino Rabeni: Hello, Julia
Alanya Jinx: Hi Julia
Alanya Jinx: Come in
Alanya Jinx: Calvino, can you give me that website again please?
Calvino Rabeni: http://picasaweb.google.com/WyldMedia/Thailand#
Alanya Jinx: th;anks
Alanya Jinx: Do you know if i can minimise SL and look at your pics at the same time?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes that should work ok \
Alanya Jinx: But without sounding foolish, how do i minimise sl?
Calvino Rabeni: the in-viewer browser has a button (open in my web browser)
Calvino Rabeni: which should show the web page in the browser outside SL
Calvino Rabeni: It should pop up on top of SL
Calvino Rabeni: you could ignore SL, or minimize it with on of the buttons on the window title bar
Calvino Rabeni: depending on whether it is a mac or a pc
Alanya Jinx: its a mac
Calvino Rabeni: not sure, one of the buttons does that, probably not red one :)
Calvino Rabeni: I have the PC, so couldn't give exact advice, good luck
Alanya Jinx: i am trying
Calvino Rabeni: Anyway there's a lot to like about Thailand - it had a certain magic to it for me
Alanya Jinx: Yes it is great. I love the sea, the mountains, cliffs the orange robed monks, the colour, the food, the weather etc
Alanya Jinx: But is is also a big hot and right now it is really noisy! Chinese New Year and firecrackers going off.
Calvino Rabeni: everything. I even like Bangkok
Calvino Rabeni: RIght, I forgot about that :)
Alanya Jinx: Yes Bangkok is great. I like the city.
Alanya Jinx: Dogs are barking too because of the firecrackers
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Calvino Rabeni: which town is that?
Alanya Jinx: Chalong on Phuket
Calvino Rabeni: I would usually rent a motorcycle and go "wandering"
Calvino Rabeni: off the tourist paths mostly
--BELL--
Alanya Jinx: I love the way that mid conversation a bell reminds us to stop and meditate
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I like that - wouldn't mind if it were more public practice
Calvino Rabeni: In thailand at certain times everyone stops to give allegiance
Calvino Rabeni: did you notice that in bangkok?
Alanya Jinx: 8am and 6pm?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes that
Alanya Jinx: i hear it at work every morning. It is a bit strange
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it seems strange to a foreigner
Alanya Jinx: did you ever visit Lumphini park?
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe, where is it?
Alanya Jinx: Bangkok, between Silom Rd and Rama 4
Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure, is there a Wat there?
Calvino Rabeni: Or is it a zoo?
Alanya Jinx: No it is just a big park, with a couple of lakes. At 6pm the runners stop running for the anthem.
Alanya Jinx: so what other places have you travelled to?
Calvino Rabeni: Let me see, about where you are lately - there's a road from Patong ot meuang phuket, over the hill, and on one side a temple with a Taoist symbol on the wall, do you know that place
Alanya Jinx: I'm not sure, there are a lot of temples here and different ways in and out of patong. dod you have a good experience there?
Alanya Jinx: did
Calvino Rabeni: Just curious what is inside, and why it looks more chinese than Thai
Calvino Rabeni: This talk is giving me the travel itch again
Calvino Rabeni: Do you speak Thai ?
Alanya Jinx: Historically Phuket had a huge chinese population, when it was tin mining. It is still very chinese in places
Alanya Jinx: I speak a little thai, but unfortunatelly not enought
Alanya Jinx: enough
Alanya Jinx: so where are you planning on travelling to next?
Calvino Rabeni: I'm not fluent, but have enough to get around
Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, thai is good on a budget, but I think I'd like to go back to spain, since I've only been to madrid
Alanya Jinx: I haven't been there, but would like to go. I went to Italy a few years ago and loved it.
Calvino Rabeni: I'd like to find something to do while there, other than look at tourist attractions
Calvino Rabeni: although I do recommend the tourist sites in madrid
Alanya Jinx: do you speak any spanish its a beautiful language
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I can manage - not fast conversation but functional traveler speaking
Calvino Rabeni: If someone is patient with me, it works :)
Calvino Rabeni: I ought to go - would you excuse me - it is late
Calvino Rabeni: but I enjoyed the chat - stop by another time :)
--BELL--
Alanya Jinx: Hi I was just looking at your photos they are great
Calvino Rabeni: Each one had some big interest for me
Calvino Rabeni: thanks
Alanya Jinx: It is a coincidence, that we have both travelled all over Thailand
Calvino Rabeni: Yes it makes things interesting
Calvino Rabeni: I have to make a phone call, but will hang out here if you want to talk thailand or whatever
Calvino Rabeni: but come back another time :)
Calvino Rabeni: the meetings are at 1 and 7 am and pm, Second life time
Alanya Jinx: Yes, see you again. Bye

Calvino Rabeni: OK, take care, bye