2010.01.13 19:00 - Images and Words

The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.

stevenaia Michinaga: hello

stevenaia Michinaga: hello

Calvino Rabeni: Hi stevenaia

stevenaia Michinaga: aww, there you are

stevenaia Michinaga: how are you this evening... do you attend all sessions

Calvino Rabeni: Good .. it varies, this time slot is easy

stevenaia Michinaga: yes, but 4:00 am

Calvino Rabeni: I like to catch the eurpoean members though, so I think 1pm works

Calvino Rabeni: 4am where you are?

stevenaia Michinaga: East coast

--BELL--

stevenaia Michinaga: those meeting work perfectly for those non-continuous sleeping nights for me

Calvino Rabeni: is that a lifestyle choice or just happens sometimes?

stevenaia Michinaga: I suspect it is food related, spouse says it is age related, so I may be on at that hour more

Calvino Rabeni: some of my friends have food things that interfere with sleep

stevenaia Michinaga: wasn't caffine or upset stomach, just awakeness

Calvino Rabeni: not uncomfortable

stevenaia Michinaga: no, or discomfort

stevenaia Michinaga: one of those interesteting places we were talking about earlier

Calvino Rabeni: I remember

stevenaia Michinaga: a place to drift between non-dreaming sleep and awakeness

stevenaia Michinaga: no-alert awakeness

stevenaia Michinaga: non-

stevenaia Michinaga: an empty place - time to lay awake

Calvino Rabeni: I find posture important in meditative practices

Calvino Rabeni: If I had the condition you are talking about I might get up from bed and sit with the lights out

stevenaia Michinaga: I do that at my office, but more to take a nap

stevenaia Michinaga: an usually I'm horizontal, I don;t do to much sitting/meditating except here and perhaps when I work

stevenaia Michinaga: productive meditation

Calvino Rabeni: when you work?

--BELL--

stevenaia Michinaga: when I am focused on a thought

stevenaia Michinaga: much of what I do is contemplation on a problem

Calvino Rabeni: Are you saying during work you do contemplative thinking of some kind

Calvino Rabeni: YEs I guess then.

stevenaia Michinaga: the solution emerges with time

stevenaia Michinaga: it's a very close relationship with the issue at hand :)

stevenaia Michinaga: an the issue is ever changing, which keep you focused

Calvino Rabeni: Are you systematic or methodical with awareness aspects ?

stevenaia Michinaga: I suspect methodical, the process is always the same, the problem is what changes each time

stevenaia Michinaga: I view the process as.....you start with the universe and end with a door handle

Calvino Rabeni: The door handle meaning the concrete result

stevenaia Michinaga: yes, an end, you select some last thing

Calvino Rabeni: At first I thought, it was a metaphor for a way of handling an issue (the handle on the issue)

stevenaia Michinaga: a metaphorical door handle, of course

stevenaia Michinaga: yes, something like that, both real and figurative door handle

stevenaia Michinaga: [19:39] Radar: Leaving chat range: Calvino Rabeni

stevenaia Michinaga: wb

Calvino Rabeni: It could be considered an awareness practice, or annoyance, to avoid the Q key

stevenaia Michinaga: smiles, yes

stevenaia Michinaga: I've done that, shift and command can be to close when you hit the Q

Calvino Rabeni: Your work is creative and intellectual

stevenaia Michinaga: usually

stevenaia Michinaga: and social

stevenaia Michinaga: :)

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: It seems i worthwhile, but difficult, to find out how exactly people go about their creative processes.

stevenaia Michinaga: yes, like consciousness, easy to watch , difficult to explain

Calvino Rabeni: It's difficult due to the observer paradox

Calvino Rabeni: The explanation part is easier than that, I think

Calvino Rabeni: The observation itself is the harder part

Calvino Rabeni: Due to the need for a split attention that looks both ways

Calvino Rabeni: It is a fairly complex mental condition

stevenaia Michinaga: but you can observe, and describe, but it may have nothing to do with the act you are watching

stevenaia Michinaga: like watching someone meditate

stevenaia Michinaga: what does it mean to someone who does not meditate

Calvino Rabeni: I mean, what happens when a person attempts to become aware of their mental process, while at the same time engaging in that process without disturbing it too much

Calvino Rabeni: I am talking about more ordinary things

Calvino Rabeni: like, ask a musician - what exactly is it you do when you are writing a song

Calvino Rabeni: Or jamming in a band

Calvino Rabeni: Same with a writer perhaps

Calvino Rabeni: About the creative part that is,

Calvino Rabeni: presumably the mechanical part is a little easier to observe\

stevenaia Michinaga: is it even possible to explain, as what it is you are asking is non-verbal

Calvino Rabeni: Sure, I think that problem is overrated

Calvino Rabeni: The problem I think you are referring to

Calvino Rabeni: I think the observation itself is the main block to success

stevenaia Michinaga: we did a little exercise at the first retreat which evolved

stevenaia Michinaga: we passed around paper and everyone began to draw

stevenaia Michinaga: then one smartypants felt is should be a 9 second excersize

stevenaia Michinaga: so every 9 seconds we passed whatever we were working on to the person to the right

stevenaia Michinaga: the drawings are on the wiki somewhere

stevenaia Michinaga: but the point I was trying to make was everyone became quiet during the process

stevenaia Michinaga: and whatever emerged had 9 seconds to materialize on the paper before the image in front of you left and was replaced by another

Calvino Rabeni: how did you like doing that?

stevenaia Michinaga: I initially felt it should have been longer than 9 seconds, but we all adapted

stevenaia Michinaga: it was very creative

stevenaia Michinaga: and put you in a new frame of reference

Calvino Rabeni: To get into that new frame, what was dropped, what came in its place?

--BELL--

stevenaia Michinaga: time was dropped, the space between the images emerged to fill with ned images

stevenaia Michinaga: new

Calvino Rabeni: Did you learn a new, if tacit, skill?

stevenaia Michinaga: no

stevenaia Michinaga: it was a skill I wanted to share with the group

Calvino Rabeni: Your idea, the 9-second timing?

stevenaia Michinaga: thinking non-verbally

Calvino Rabeni: right

stevenaia Michinaga: no another took the 9 second idea to this task, I just presented the task

Calvino Rabeni: so it used cognitive abilities you already had on tap

stevenaia Michinaga: nods

Calvino Rabeni: For others, it could have been more a learning experience

stevenaia Michinaga: I gave it no time frame

stevenaia Michinaga: yes, it could have been for them

stevenaia Michinaga: hi Paradise

Paradise Tennant: hiya steve cal :)

Calvino Rabeni: :) Paradise

stevenaia Michinaga: although some asked if they could use words

Calvino Rabeni: Did this story occur to you, in order to carry on with the conversation we were having earlier?

Paradise Tennant: :)

stevenaia Michinaga: just related to the work (draw) -meditation discussion we had and how I offered it as a tool at the first retreat

Paradise Tennant: :)

Paradise Tennant: YES

Calvino Rabeni: You remember, Para?

stevenaia Michinaga: the first Princeton retreat, Paradise

Paradise Tennant: well we talked about different meditation techniques at princeton

Paradise Tennant: but I was at the second retreat

Paradise Tennant: or the most recent

Paradise Tennant: ?

stevenaia Michinaga: the first one was a year earlier

stevenaia Michinaga: http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_Events...nesis_Zhangsun

Paradise Tennant: ahh kk

stevenaia Michinaga: it;s mentioned in the second last paragraph

Paradise Tennant: kk

Calvino Rabeni: I see this as about, the challenges of observing creative process

Calvino Rabeni: Everyone spends much of their days in creative process of one kind or another

stevenaia Michinaga: from the point of view of the doer

Paradise Tennant: :) or simply stepping out of its way :)

Calvino Rabeni: whether it is regarded as such or not, by virtue of its end products

stevenaia Michinaga: here they are

stevenaia Michinaga: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Informatio...7_-_19_October

Calvino Rabeni: the observation process seems to interfere with the creative process, for many people, which is what I think Para is referring to

stevenaia Michinaga: images at the bottom

Calvino Rabeni: And i think that is the more difficult thing about it

Calvino Rabeni: compared to the "description problem" which is more of a paper tiger

Paradise Tennant: :)

Calvino Rabeni: Athletics is one area where coaching often tries to account for the "inner game"

Calvino Rabeni: that is, the internal aspect of what is going on behind the physical performance

--BELL--

Paradise Tennant: meditative visualization .. I think is a powerful tool to harness creativity

Calvino Rabeni: Probably the performance aspect, kind of legitimizes the attempt to even do that kind of thing

stevenaia Michinaga: like a teacher teaching meditation

Calvino Rabeni: A lot like that

Calvino Rabeni: Or like teaching internal martial arts, which isn't exactly athletics, but has physical forms

Paradise Tennant: we could do a group visualization .. on something creative hmm maybe a drawing ..I wonder if there would an impact ?

Calvino Rabeni: Yoga, chi kung, etc. might include this in teaching

Calvino Rabeni: say more paradise?

Paradise Tennant: well the same exercise steve did at the first retreat but only virtually

Paradise Tennant: maybe even with a prim object :)

stevenaia Michinaga: Ada has a drawing board she invented and drought it to a few sessions, but it wasn;t that fluid

stevenaia Michinaga: *brought

Calvino Rabeni: hmm, I'm not facile with prims, they are slow to handle

stevenaia Michinaga: but there was some interesting drawings

Calvino Rabeni: BUt it might be possible to do it just with *words*

Calvino Rabeni: because it's easy to put something on the chat line

Paradise Tennant: yes

stevenaia Michinaga: some do better with words than others

Paradise Tennant: we could try say a poem

Paradise Tennant: sort of like improv

Calvino Rabeni: yes

Paradise Tennant: one person starts the next continues lol

Paradise Tennant: but it has to be fast

Paradise Tennant: to keep the flow going

stevenaia Michinaga: a vertical poem

Paradise Tennant: I am going to start because that is the easy one lol

Calvino Rabeni: order?

Calvino Rabeni: or at random

Paradise Tennant: clockwise ...

Calvino Rabeni: para steve calvino

Paradise Tennant: the sun smiled .. gilding .. gold .. the dawn ..

stevenaia Michinaga: flying with the breeze

Calvino Rabeni: and a sheaf of mirth

Paradise Tennant: lol tangled .. in a kite string forgotten ...

stevenaia Michinaga: blocking the sun as it passes

Calvino Rabeni: before the eye of Sound

Paradise Tennant:to dwell in the silence of my heart

stevenaia Michinaga: the sun tugging at the depth within

Calvino Rabeni: oh even then - and always -

stevenaia Michinaga: ...... the end

stevenaia Michinaga: interesting, Cal, that was very much like a 9 second sketch

stevenaia Michinaga: transforming in an unexpected way

stevenaia Michinaga: (for me)

Calvino Rabeni: onigokko

stevenaia Michinaga: cute

Calvino Rabeni: stop

--BELL--

stevenaia Michinaga: somehow I have one worn that you cannot see, but I cannot share it

Calvino Rabeni: mine was missing, unexpectedly

stevenaia Michinaga: bed time for me

Calvino Rabeni: I have no visible tail, do i?

Calvino Rabeni: If so, Para, you can wear it invisibly

stevenaia Michinaga: no

stevenaia Michinaga: night all

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