2011.05.19 01:00 - Justice and Forgiveness

The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Sinequanon and myself

Reunion with a friend for Pakistan:

Zen Arado: Hi Observerm
Zen Arado: nobody here
Zen Arado: Hi Sinequanon :)
sinequanon Sahara: very crowded here today :)
Zen Arado: I haven't met you before
sinequanon Sahara: i havent been here much..
Zen Arado: it is a bad time for people
Zen Arado: too am for Americans
Zen Arado: and Europeans at work
sinequanon Sahara: i am from Pakistan...
Zen Arado: you know we record the conversation and publish it in a Wiki and are o with that?
Zen Arado: ok
sinequanon Sahara: yes i know..
Zen Arado: ok good
sinequanon Sahara: theres quite a lag here..
Zen Arado: there was a man from Pakistan before here
sinequanon Sahara: oh that must have been me
Zen Arado: ah ok
Zen Arado: told me how good the communications technology was in Pakistan?
sinequanon Sahara: but even then i would nly come here just now and then
sinequanon Sahara: oh yes i remember that...
sinequanon Sahara: its still soaring by the way :)
Zen Arado: this time would suit Asians or Australians I guess but don't see amny
Zen Arado: you had floods in Pakistan?
sinequanon Sahara: yes we were very badly hit...
Zen Arado: how were you affected?
sinequanon Sahara: we have been having all sorts of truobles lately :)
sinequanon Sahara: very popular nowdays :)
sinequanon Sahara: i wasnt affected at all...thank God
Zen Arado: good
Zen Arado: I'm lucky that we don't seem to have any natural disasters
sinequanon Sahara: it mostly affected the lower regions...terrain wise
Zen Arado: no earthquakes, floods
Zen Arado: yes
sinequanon Sahara: you have your hurricanes
Zen Arado: no
Zen Arado: storms maybe
--BELL--
Zen Arado: I live in N.Ireland nto the USA
Zen Arado: we do get a lot of rain :)
sinequanon Sahara: ah i see...
Zen Arado: that is why Ireland is so green :)
sinequanon Sahara: its a lovely country...
sinequanon Sahara: i was reading a book last month...
Zen Arado: have you travelled much?
Zen Arado: yes?
sinequanon Sahara: by an irish writer
sinequanon Sahara: the third policeman...fleen o brien
Zen Arado: haven't read it
sinequanon Sahara: flenn sorry
sinequanon Sahara: ah its marvelous...it wil drown you in words
Zen Arado: what is it about?
sinequanon Sahara: if i told you it will take away all the suspense...
Zen Arado: :)
sinequanon Sahara: because the book is just about what it is about...
sinequanon Sahara: there is nothing else in it...
sinequanon Sahara: theres hardly a story even...
sinequanon Sahara: its just the plot...
sinequanon Sahara: of what it is about...
Zen Arado: is it set in Ireland?
sinequanon Sahara: yes probably....
sinequanon Sahara: but that doesnt have anything to do with it..
sinequanon Sahara: you could set it anywhere
sinequanon Sahara: its about the esoteric rather than the exterior
sinequanon Sahara: and its about bicycles :)
sinequanon Sahara: very allegorical..very james joyce
Zen Arado: http://www.amazon.co.uk/OBrien-Compl...0&sr=8-1-spell
Zen Arado: you can buy the complete set I see
Zen Arado: I have read Joyce
Zen Arado: looks interesting
sinequanon Sahara: thanks..yes
Zen Arado: I started to read 'Dubliners' a little while ago
sinequanon Sahara: i havent read it
Zen Arado: it reminded me so much of my grandfather
Zen Arado: he was a Dublin man
Zen Arado: he ran away to sea when he was 16 and finsihed up in Belfast
sinequanon Sahara: but these days i am more into Robert Fisk than Jmes Joyce...as things have been lately :)
Zen Arado: haven't read him
sinequanon Sahara: ah a sailor
Zen Arado: he woeked in a sawmill
Zen Arado: worked
sinequanon Sahara: Robert Fisk is an irish journalist specializing in the middle east affairs
Zen Arado: had lost one of his thumbs
Zen Arado: ah ok
Zen Arado: the name is familiar
sinequanon Sahara: yes he is very famous for his outspokenness
sinequanon Sahara: and very keen in his observations...
sinequanon Sahara: he has lived in beirut a lot...
Zen Arado: what did you think about the BIn Laden shooting?
sinequanon Sahara: its a very complicated affair...
Zen Arado: yes
sinequanon Sahara: and it needs to be looked into from many different angles
Zen Arado: agree
sinequanon Sahara: Good riddance ...i would say..but things really arent that simple too
sinequanon Sahara: then you also need to look into the legality of the shooting itself..
--BELL--
Zen Arado: the US just went in and shot him...kind of ignored Pakistan's sovereignity though
Zen Arado: yes
sinequanon Sahara: not reallly...
sinequanon Sahara: our government probably had a clandestine agreement
Zen Arado: yeh ...was wondring about that
sinequanon Sahara: so it doesnt impinge on our sovereignity as such....not so outrightly so...
Zen Arado: but they also seemed to be protecting him too
Zen Arado: or looking the other way
sinequanon Sahara: what it does impinge upon is on the sovereignty of the people
sinequanon Sahara: but most of all...it was an act of vengeance....
Zen Arado: I sometimes think the word 'justice' is a euphemism for revenge
sinequanon Sahara: and vengeance doesnt serve any purpose
Zen Arado: yes exactly
sinequanon Sahara: so now we have two moral equivalents....
sinequanon Sahara: both wrong...
Zen Arado: exactly
sinequanon Sahara: and two wrongs do not make a right
Zen Arado: retributive justice
Zen Arado: and it sparks off more violence
Zen Arado: a cycle of vengeance
sinequanon Sahara: yes...and so practically it doesnt change anything
sinequanon Sahara: things are exactly as they were the day before...
Zen Arado: or even escalates the problem
sinequanon Sahara: you have an icon missing
Zen Arado: it is the lag I think
sinequanon Sahara: now the other side will try there very best to fill in that icon with something else
sinequanon Sahara: their
Zen Arado: oh.. I misunderstood :)
Zen Arado: yes
sinequanon Sahara: but it has helped us in a way...the whole epsiode...or it will in the long run
Zen Arado: yes? in what way?
sinequanon Sahara: we have done a lot of soul searching the past few weaks...
sinequanon Sahara: how did it happen...how was it allowed to....etc etc...
sinequanon Sahara: not just the shooting alone ...but his being there
Zen Arado: they must have known about it?
sinequanon Sahara: well...thats a tough question to answer
sinequanon Sahara: and it should also never be answered without qualifying who "they" were
sinequanon Sahara: even today there are very many for whom he is still their idol
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: people with high government positions
sinequanon Sahara: i doubt that....that there were people in high govet who would be complicit to him being there
sinequanon Sahara: but a govet with in a govet maybe
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: Pakistan is a largely Muslim country?
sinequanon Sahara: yes 99% i think
Zen Arado: so you have a Muslim background?
sinequanon Sahara: yes i am a muslim
--BELL--
Zen Arado: do you practice Islam?
Zen Arado: devoutly?
Zen Arado: sorry if I am asking too many questions
sinequanon Sahara: yes very much so....or atleast i like to have my theories straight :)
sinequanon Sahara: oh no problem ...i dont mind at all
Zen Arado: how is the issue of justice dalt with in Islam
Zen Arado: ?
Zen Arado: dealt
sinequanon Sahara: humm good question...
Zen Arado: I know in Christianity it can have two teachings
sinequanon Sahara: we do believe in the chrisian eye for eye...i mean it is allowed...but to forgive is considered a btter option
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: Jesus seemed to teach forgiveness too
sinequanon Sahara: yes in that we are not very different...what i meant was its even legally allowed
sinequanon Sahara: for example
Zen Arado: there was a cycle of revenge shootings and bombings in N.Ireland for years
sinequanon Sahara: if i were to kill someone and if there family forgives me then enev the law can set me free
sinequanon Sahara: so it wouldnt be legally binding on the law to have my life or to serve me a life sentence
Zen Arado: interesting..
Zen Arado: I remember a Christian man here
Zen Arado: his duaghter was killed in a bombing
Zen Arado: but he forgave the killers
Zen Arado: I admired him for that
Zen Arado: when you think about it revenge does little good
Zen Arado: a deterrent maybe
sinequanon Sahara: not even a deterrant i would say
Zen Arado: but it would not have brought his daughter back to him in this case
Zen Arado: yes..because people don't think they will be caught
sinequanon Sahara: i saw an excellent documentary...and it was on ireland so it would interest you
Zen Arado: yes?
sinequanon Sahara: a guy had his son killed by someone in the IRA...a very long time back...
sinequanon Sahara: all his life he serched for the killer...just to meet him ...to face him...and to tell him on his face that he has forgiven him
sinequanon Sahara: it was very moving
Zen Arado: yes..I heard about that
Zen Arado: the power of forgiveness
Zen Arado: and storing feelings of bitterness and desire for revenge harms us I think
sinequanon Sahara: he said that probably this is the only thing that would give him closure...to let him rest peacefully afterwards
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: well I have to go now
Zen Arado: it was good talking to you
sinequanon Sahara: yes so do i...
sinequanon Sahara: a pleasure Zen
Zen Arado: I jsut realized what your name means :)
Zen Arado: sine qua non
sinequanon Sahara: yes it is latin...sine qua non
Zen Arado: an essential action
sinequanon Sahara: yes
Zen Arado: pleasure
sinequanon Sahara: have a nice day Zen
Zen Arado: bye see you again some time perhaos
Zen Arado: you too