2008.11.22 19:00 - AH! There is Some Real Anger!

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    That afternoon at 1 pm SLT we had a weekly guardian meeting. Stim was the guardian on call, and I, Pema, posted the log with my comments. When Stim came in, Riddle, Adams and Solo were already there.

    Riddle Sideways: hi adams
    Adams Rubble: Hello Bill and Riddle and Stim :)
    Solobill Laville: I see the water, are you sitting in it, Riddle? we can remove it...now, thanks to Storm
    Stim Morane: Hi Solobill, Riddle, Adams
    Riddle Sideways: ha, I sat on a hidden pillow
    Solobill Laville: Hey, Stim!
    Solobill Laville: ahh! :)
    Solobill Laville: ah, Ms. Udino, hello again!
    Adams Rubble: Hello Tarmel
    Tarmel Udimo: hello
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Tarmel
    Adams Rubble: Hello Steve
    Tarmel Udimo: I can't stay long because I have friends coming over
    Tarmel Udimo: hello all
    Riddle Sideways: I can't stay long either
    Stim Morane: Hi Tarmel, Stevenaia
    Solobill Laville: Hi, Steve
    stevenaia Michinaga refills their cup of relaxing Hot Green Tea !
    Riddle Sideways: but might not make any other meetings this weekend
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    Tarmel Udimo: hello
    Riddle Sideways: hi stev
    stevenaia Michinaga: Hello Riddle, I have read much but don;t remember if we ever met
    Riddle Sideways: can't remember if we have met either
    Riddle Sideways: seems like I know you have readings
    Riddle Sideways: mostly I am marvelling over the fountain solution
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello pema
    Riddle Sideways: how to please everybody all the time
    Adams Rubble: Hello Pema :)
    Stim Morane: Hi Pema
    Riddle Sideways: hi pema
    Pema Pera: Hi everybody!
    Tarmel Udimo: he pema
    Riddle Sideways: of late many situations have come up
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, fountain changes seem to be used by many
    Riddle Sideways: where we can't please everybody
    Riddle Sideways: and here is one way that can happen
    Solobill Laville: Well, if you can't please some of the people some of the time...might as well please everybody!
    Riddle Sideways: so true
    Adams Rubble: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: a very interesting topic for this past weekl
    stevenaia Michinaga: reminds me of a Rolling Stone's song...smile
    Riddle Sideways: you'll get what you need
    stevenaia Michinaga: You can't always get what you you want, yes
    Solobill Laville: ...if you try sometimes...
    Riddle Sideways: by that great guru Mick Jagger

    Mick's words triggered a brief discussion.

    Pema Pera: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: is it better that some one gets something or no one gets anything?
    Riddle Sideways: was not sure that is the only options
    Solobill Laville: Probably depends on how much the person that gets nothing cares
    stevenaia Michinaga: or is willing to "let go"
    Solobill Laville nods
    stevenaia Michinaga: a tug of war with only one side pulling
    Solobill Laville: ah! yes
    Solobill Laville: not much of a tug or war... :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: but amusing to watch
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Tarmel Udimo: I am so sorry but I have to leave as some dear friends have shown up - I'll be back for another
    Tarmel Udimo: session though
    Solobill Laville: Bye, Tarmel! Have fun
    Adams Rubble: bye Tarmel
    Stim Morane: Bye Tarmel
    Pema Pera: good seeing you again, Tarmel!
    Riddle Sideways: bye Tarmel
    Tarmel Udimo: yes good seeing you again all - vefore i go what tme is HH?
    Riddle Sideways seems to now be stuck in the land of mixed cliches
    Tarmel Udimo: time - sp?
    Pema Pera: HH is 2 pm SLT
    Solobill Laville: I think 2:00pm SLT
    Pema Pera: in the Kira Cafe
    Pema Pera: every day
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Tarmal
    Pema Pera: SLT = California time
    Riddle Sideways: of course
    Tarmel Udimo: thanks okay see you there -
    Pema Pera: see ya!
    stevenaia Michinaga: sorry, only my third guardian meeting, is there a topic ?
    Riddle Sideways: anything you wish

    Solo then brings up a topic.

    Solobill Laville: I had one operations topic to offer
    Solobill Laville: I had a session last week
    Pema Pera: Hi Kirkra!
    Kirkra Caerndow: Hello again!
    Adams Rubble: Hello Kirkra
    Solobill Laville: wehre I thought to show a video
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Kirkra
    Solobill Laville: and then discuss it
    Stim Morane: Hi Kirkra
    Pema Pera: wb
    Solobill Laville: So the thought of a multimedia capability came to me
    Solobill Laville: Perhaps in the library?
    Solobill Laville: Hello, Kirkra
    Pema Pera: sure, or in the Kira Cafe
    Solobill Laville: Yes, either
    Pema Pera: you mean outside PaB sessions, right?
    Riddle Sideways: yes, the big screen TV here would look awkward
    Pema Pera: and would interrupt the flow of conversations
    Solobill Laville: well...
    stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps like the fountain we can have Storm work on a dissappearing one
    Pema Pera: what I like about the PaB sessions is the personal presence and personal discussions
    Kirkra Caerndow: It certainly is a rather lovely fountain, even without any mysterious juju attached to it
    Pema Pera: I would be hesitant to use the time here for watching things
    Solobill Laville: I am not so sure it would acually be much different than having a two person "seminar" type format, then discussing
    Pema Pera: the two people are live though
    Pema Pera: not canned
    Solobill Laville: Of course, it puts the responsibility of appropriate content on the guardian
    Pema Pera: what would be the reason to do so?
    Solobill Laville contemplates the issue of canned vs. not canned
    Pema Pera: versus somebody bringing up an idea in his or her own words?
    Solobill Laville: it is very much dependent on the content, I think
    Solobill Laville: in my case
    Solobill Laville: it was a 18 minute you tube video of a woman who had a
    Solobill Laville: profound realization after a stroke
    Solobill Laville: actually a neuro scientist
    Solobill Laville: it was VERY powerful
    Pema Pera: yes, it's a great movie, I've seen it
    stevenaia Michinaga: I've heard of her book

    I try to enumerate several possibilities.

    Pema Pera: I can see a few options:
    Pema Pera: 1) as you suggested, spend 18 minutes watching it here, then discussing it
    Pema Pera: 2) asking everyone to watch it on the web, before coming here, as we did with the discussions, providing the theme beforehand
    Pema Pera: 3) having a special sension as a special time, in the Kira Cafe for example
    Solobill Laville nods
    Kirkra Caerndow: I would vote option ... well I would say two but three would be a fun experience
    Pema Pera: Personally, I prefer 2) or 3), rather than taking time away from PaB as in 1)
    Pema Pera: teh problem with 1) is that many people come and go
    Kirkra Caerndow: That too
    Pema Pera: very few people come right at the start
    Solobill Laville: Both 1) an 2) also assume everyone has sound and a good connection...
    Kirkra Caerndow: I try to stay rational but I find things like that to be very interesting. It would be great to discuss at some point.
    Solobill Laville: And the latter for 3) too
    Pema Pera: perhpas 2) would be best then
    Pema Pera: You can just pick a date and try it out
    Solobill Laville: Which is why I too was thinking an off-site multimedia area
    Pema Pera: we'll see how it works
    Riddle Sideways: opt 2) is like a book club where each person is to see it before meeting
    Solobill Laville: RIght!
    Pema Pera: yes, spending the time together for real interactions
    Pema Pera: rather than passive entertainment
    Pema Pera: we do that in our astronomy group too
    Pema Pera: it is called "journal club"
    Pema Pera: a speaker talks about his/her work
    Pema Pera: and everyone reads the article beforehand
    Pema Pera: gives for intense and interesting discussions
    Pema Pera: (SL astronomy group;)
    Solobill Laville nods
    Pema Pera: http://playasbeing.wik.is/
    Riddle Sideways: (SLAG?)
    Pema Pera: MICA :-)
    Kirkra Caerndow: Oh! That looks wonderful
    Solobill Laville is watching the sun rise behind us in the green expanse... :)
    Stim Morane: Unfortunately I'll have to go. I'm teaching a retreat this weekend and am pretty tired.
    Pema Pera: bye Stim!
    Adams Rubble: goodbye Stim
    Solobill Laville: Goodnight, Stim
    Pema Pera still thinking about guru Mick Jagger . . . especially Ruby Tuesday
    Kirkra Caerndow: Goodbye!
    Riddle Sideways: how many sunrises/sunsets are there each SL day?
    stevenaia Michinaga: sleep well Stim
    Pema Pera: a possible topic for conversation, unless we have a different one?

    I meant Ruby Tuesday, not the number of sunsets :-), but that topic was dropped.

    Riddle Sideways: bye Stim
    Stim Morane: Thanks. Bye all!
    Solobill Laville: 6, I think
    Solobill Laville: Roshi Mick
    Pema Pera: 6?
    Solobill Laville: sunrises
    Pema Pera: ah! yes, every four hours
    Kirkra Caerndow: How glorious
    Riddle Sideways: ah, friends I must also go now
    Pema Pera: bye Riddle
    Kirkra Caerndow: Good luck to you
    Adams Rubble: bye Riddle :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: Nice to meet you Riddle
    Riddle Sideways: ty
    Solobill Laville: Bye, Riddle
    Riddle Sideways: yes, good night
    Solobill Laville is still amazed Riddle and Steveaia have just met face to face...
    Pema Pera is starting to get amazed, didn't know that!
    stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps we did and just don;t remember... age does that, what time zone is he in?
    Pema Pera: California
    stevenaia Michinaga: hmmm
    Pema Pera: Adams, anything new, if I may ask?
    Adams Rubble: Nothing too much

    I try another topic.

    Pema Pera: has anyone been playing with appreciating apperance, with or without luck?
    Pema Pera: or struggling with what that might mean?
    Adams Rubble: I am not playing with it but do appreciate
    stevenaia Michinaga: I am enjoying reading about it
    stevenaia Michinaga: which creats familiarity and comfort with the topic
    Pema Pera: I find it the most rich way in which to work with the 9 sec exploration
    Pema Pera: and I realize that it may be unclear what I mean with "appearance" and "appreciation"
    Pema Pera: so if you have any questions, or suggestions, I'd be happy to say more
    Solobill Laville: Do you mean appreciate appearance as a presentation of Being?
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: the presence of appearance, to be precise :) APAPB in short
    Kirkra Caerndow: I enjoy that aspect, if you can forgive my strange looking character
    Pema Pera: you look fine, Kirkra!
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Kirkra Caerndow: Hah, well thank you
    Pema Pera: have you tried working with APAPB?
    Pema Pera: appreciate the presence of appearance as a presentation by Being
    Pema Pera: (just wondering whether you had heard or read about it, perhaps)
    Pema Pera: <-- Kirkra
    Kirkra Caerndow: APAPB?
    Pema Pera: appreciate the presence of appearance as a presentation by Being
    Kirkra Caerndow: I haven't heard of that, but then again, I'm not too great with acronyms
    Pema Pera: APAPB for short :)
    Kirkra Caerndow: Oooh, okay
    Pema Pera: it is specific for this group
    Pema Pera: just a short hand
    Pema Pera: the idea is to take anything, an emotion, a thing, a sight
    Pema Pera: any phenomenon
    Pema Pera: and to taste its presence
    Pema Pera: without judgment
    Pema Pera: without its value for applications, without its utility
    Pema Pera: say anger of frustration
    Pema Pera: just to appreciate its taste, its sheer presence, its energy, its thereness
    Pema Pera: -- but that's already saying too much, though it could help initially
    Pema Pera: -- really only appreciating its suchness
    Pema Pera: it's an amazing exploration to do that
    Kirkra Caerndow: Meditation, then
    Kirkra Caerndow: But more conscious
    Pema Pera: yes, if you like, though that word is used in so many ways
    Kirkra Caerndow: Yes, yes it is
    Solobill Laville: I think a basic first step, in my history,
    Pema Pera: yes indeed, Kirkra
    Solobill Laville: was actually separating myself from those things - anger for example
    Solobill Laville: recognizing its not integrated nature with what I thought was "myself"
    Solobill Laville: A basic, step, but an important first one
    Pema Pera: yes, that is actually what I meant, Solo, thank you!

    The conversation deepens and gets more specific.

    Kirkra Caerndow: I actually have had difficulties in some of those ways. Not like anger management, but other emotions. It would be great practice perhaps to learn to control that better
    Pema Pera: ah, NOT control NEITHER denial
    Pema Pera: just seeing
    Pema Pera: that's most important
    Solobill Laville: yup
    Pema Pera: a nice side effect is that they loose their sting, . . . .
    Adams Rubble nods
    Pema Pera: they drong their sting, you don't pull it
    Kirkra Caerndow: So just experience for its own sake
    Pema Pera: yes, and even less than experience, in a way: just only watch it
    Pema Pera: you can feel it, taste it, experience it in that sense
    Pema Pera: but don't let it feed you and don't let it run away with you
    Pema Pera: or you with it
    Pema Pera: so that's what Solo means with stepping back a bit, I think
    Solobill Laville: about a two months ago, perhaps, I had an experience with anger
    Solobill Laville: I forget the exact reasons...but I instantly recognized "anger"
    Solobill Laville: and said to myself, "AH! there is some real anger!"
    Solobill Laville: Just watching like that let it fall :)
    Solobill Laville: And I could taste it, as you said Pema, it actually had heat in my chest...
    Kirkra Caerndow: I had a dream a few nights ago. It wasnt a bad dream but it made me absolutely furious! I couldn't help but laught about it but I was still angry.
    Solobill Laville: Did the anger linger?
    Kirkra Caerndow: Yes it did
    Kirkra Caerndow: Just for a while
    Kirkra Caerndow: But without a source of the anger, a tangible source that is, it's hard to be seriously angry
    Solobill Laville: It rises and falls like the tide, if you watch it ;)
    Kirkra Caerndow: It's almost beautiful in a way
    Kirkra Caerndow: Even fear
    Pema Pera: yes, if you neither fuel nor suppress it
    Pema Pera: yes!
    Pema Pera: http://www.panhala.net/Archive/The_Guest_House.html
    Pema Pera: is Rumi's expression of what we are talking about now
    Pema Pera: both Solo and Kirkra
    Solobill Laville: ty
    Kirkra Caerndow: Ah, thank you

    Solobill brings up a book by a wonderful Vietnamese Zen Buddhist.

    Solobill Laville: Thich Nhat Hanh also has a book about Anger
    Pema Pera: he's great, yes!
    Solobill Laville: (I forget the title at the moment) (Anger: Wisdom for Cooling the Flames)
    Pema Pera: talking about life experience, coming from Vietnam, as a Buddhist, in between a rock and a hard place . . . .
    Pema Pera: . . . US and Vietcong
    Solobill Laville nods
    Solobill Laville: And actually a lot of it was about relationships...
    Pema Pera: inter-being?
    Solobill Laville: hehe, marriage...
    Adams Rubble amazed that Pema knows everyone who is brought up at meetings
    Pema Pera: :-) he had nothing better do to in his life, it seems . . . .
    Kirkra Caerndow: Still better than many things, hahah
    Solobill Laville: most...
    Pema Pera: haha, yes, I did mean it literally :-)
    Pema Pera: I really did have nothing better to do!
    Pema Pera: but there comes a time that you stop reading . . . .
    Pema Pera: . . . . and starting reading appearances
    Pema Pera: and appreciating them as such
    Pema Pera: not much need for further reading then . . .. .
    Solobill Laville: that's a very interesting point...
    Pema Pera: each phenomenon in each moment shows All
    Pema Pera: shows Being
    Pema Pera: is Being
    Pema Pera: as Being
    Pema Pera: it's awesome
    Pema Pera: sheer Awe
    Solobill Laville: There can be a tendency to stand on the diving board and look at the water
    Solobill Laville: ...and not dive in...
    Solobill Laville: Especially in a learned society
    Solobill Laville: It is tough to get to that point without getting wet, first
    Pema Pera: oh yes!
    Pema Pera: you have to get wet
    Pema Pera: by seeing there is no you
    Pema Pera: and no time
    Pema Pera: at first a few glimpses
    Pema Pera: then more
    Pema Pera: and many more
    Pema Pera: and then you learn to consciously invite those
    Pema Pera: and then they connect
    Pema Pera: and then all of life becomes a play
    Pema Pera: in which you playfully fall out of seeing and bounce back in again
    stevenaia Michinaga: I must go, thanks
    Pema Pera: bye Steve!
    Kirkra Caerndow: In a way, its just a need to lose attachments. Not even a need though, not truly. To learn to act for the sake of action and not for any other reason
    Adams Rubble: bye Steve
    Solobill Laville: Bye, Steve
    Kirkra Caerndow: Goodbye
    Pema Pera: yes, Kirkra, very much so

    Kirkra then asks a very pertinent question: if we know, why don't we act?

    Kirkra Caerndow: Why is it, then, that we stand on the diving board and don't jump in?
    Solobill Laville: fear
    Pema Pera: oh, habits
    Kirkra Caerndow: Surely the purpose of being there is to jump
    Pema Pera: habitual fear, etc
    Adams Rubble appreciating the feel of the board with m y toes
    Adams Rubble: ")
    Pema Pera: well, from Being's point of view we can't escape -- even trying not to jump, we are already there, partaking fully!
    Kirkra Caerndow: But fear of what? What is the danger? Even when there is no perceived danger there is lingering sentiment
    Pema Pera: yes, Adams, that's another way to shift
    Pema Pera: dropping allegiance to time and self can take so many forms
    Pema Pera: fear of giving up self
    Pema Pera: VERY big fear
    Pema Pera: for everybody
    Pema Pera: perhaps hard to recognize that fear at first, sitting here, congenially chatting . . . .
    Kirkra Caerndow: It is my greatest fear in fact. The loss of identity
    Kirkra Caerndow: I dream about it very frequently
    Pema Pera: yes, for all of us that's the sticking point
    Pema Pera: in what way, Kirkra?
    Kirkra Caerndow: But how does that fear manifest for you?
    Kirkra Caerndow: For me? It is not simply a moment, it is an entirely loss of... self, I suppose control in a way. It's a feeling not just of not being myself but not being a person.
    Pema Pera: For me? It resulted in hiding, mostly, hiding for myself what was actually my real goal . .. .
    Pema Pera: hehehe, same time "for me?" lines
    Pema Pera: yes, lack of control is what is so scary
    Pema Pera: learning to really let go . . . . and wonderful when you find a way to do that
    Pema Pera: then all the pieces of the puzzle suddenly magically fall in place

    The question of goals . . .

    Adams Rubble: what was your real goal, Pema?
    Kirkra Caerndow: And yes it is, under controlled circumstances
    Pema Pera: no goal Adams
    Pema Pera: no goal but letting go of goals
    Pema Pera: controlled, Kirkra?
    Kirkra Caerndow: Achieving matters for the moment
    Kirkra Caerndow: Hrmm?
    Pema Pera: a sense of wanting to achieve can initially motivate, for sure, but sooner or later that has to be dropped
    Pema Pera: otherwise you get stuck
    Pema Pera: appreciation is the opposite of reaching and trying to get
    Pema Pera: appreciation is more like celebration what is already there
    Solobill Laville nods
    Pema Pera: no need to get, not even a possibility to get
    Pema Pera: it's all here already -- trying to get turns you away from it !!
    Solobill Laville: Friends, I must get up early, and it is late...
    Pema Pera: see you Solo, thanks for a great discussion!
    Kirkra Caerndow: That's so strange though, the experience in the dream is just that: dropping goals and desires beyond the short term
    Kirkra Caerndow: and goodbye
    Solobill Laville: ty, all
    Adams Rubble: yes Bill. me too. bye :)
    Pema Pera: And if fact, what we said had everything to do with the movie you recommended
    Pema Pera: same thing!
    Adams Rubble: bue Bill
    Solobill Laville: night, Adams
    Adams Rubble: bye everyone
    Pema Pera: how interesting, Kirkra, and did that make you angry?
    Solobill Laville: Ha! true...and we didn't even have to watch it
    Pema Pera: By Adams!
    Pema Pera: hehehe, Solo
    Pema Pera: but I'd love to see it again
    Pema Pera: Please do pick a day and time
    Pema Pera: and suggest us to see it before hand
    Pema Pera: Perhaps when you are next guardian?
    Pema Pera: goc?
    Solobill Laville: ok, good idea
    Pema Pera: give people a couple days
    Solobill Laville: ok, night!
    Kirkra Caerndow: Thank you for the discussion

    At this point, Kirkra and I were the only two left.

    Pema Pera: sure, Kirkra, and I'd love to hear more about your dream!
    Pema Pera: was that the one that made you angry?
    Kirkra Caerndow: It's strange, an odd dream, I feel weird talking about it
    Kirkra Caerndow: But in a way its the basis for my curiosity
    Pema Pera: such dreams can be really important
    Kirkra Caerndow: I've had this dream my whole life
    Pema Pera: then it must be pretty important!
    Pema Pera: btw, if you prefer that we don't record this part, I'm happy of course to leave that out then
    Kirkra Caerndow: Yes, it is. But it's not good or bad. It's very hard to explain
    Kirkra Caerndow: Oh if you wish to record it, it's fine, just odd
    Pema Pera: they've told you about our blogging on our web site, right?
    Pema Pera: okay!
    Pema Pera: would you like to say more?
    Pema Pera: it may contain important hints
    Kirkra Caerndow: Yes, I know about that, but hrm maybe
    Kirkra Caerndow: I think I might prefer discussing it privately at first
    Pema Pera: fine, do you know about IM?
    Kirkra Caerndow: But if people have an open mind it might be helpful to discuss more openly
    Kirkra Caerndow: Yes I do
    Pema Pera: either way is perfectly fine, Kirkra, we can start with IM if you like
    Pema Pera: and then decide what, if anything, to put out in the open
    Kirkra Caerndow: Well, it's quiet enough here
    Pema Pera: okay
    Kirkra Caerndow: Do you have any recurring dreams? A state that you come back to when you sleep even if you don't want to?
    Pema Pera: I've had times where I had such dreams, yes, especially when I was younger
    Kirkra Caerndow: To start with, what was your experience then?
    Pema Pera: they can really hold a spell on you

    I tell my story of a vivid and sometimes recurring dream, in childhood.

    Pema Pera: well, different, let's see . . . when I was perhaps 7 or 8 or so
    Pema Pera: I had a very abstract dream, of two points diagonally in my field of vision, and me having to connect them and having trouble getting much furher than half way, and seeing the connecting line becoming more and more meandering but yet knowing I had to keep trying though I knew I would never reach the other point . . . .
    Pema Pera: very very strong feeling, and during the day I could literally feel the taste in my mouth that I associated with the dream
    Pema Pera: I think I now finally understand what the dream meant . . . .
    Kirkra Caerndow: What did it mean?
    Pema Pera: we think there is a gap, between where we are and where we want to be
    Kirkra Caerndow: It is the human condition
    Pema Pera: we think we are needy creatures, in need of something higher, better, salvation, enlightenment, you name it . . . . all very lofty but . . .
    Pema Pera: in fact, we are already where we need to be, and trying to bridge an imaginary gap in fact is not only impossible, it distracts us from where we are
    Kirkra Caerndow: There is no satisfaction. Not physically. Why does the king lust for power? Or the dictator.
    Pema Pera: but those are words . . . my experience was very very sensory and direct
    Pema Pera: yes, no ultimate satisfaction
    Kirkra Caerndow: Yes, I understand that feeling. Not in an abstract way but. Well it's strange
    Pema Pera: indeed, childish when you think of it . . . .
    Kirkra Caerndow: Since I like english so much I'm obsessed with language
    Pema Pera: I mean the king and dictator impulses
    Kirkra Caerndow: There are no words in my dreams. Things are described in a way, but not with that kind of label
    Kirkra Caerndow: It's simply an experience
    Kirkra Caerndow: And yes, it is
    Kirkra Caerndow: Humans, we humans are childish
    Pema Pera: the challenge is to REALLY become like children :-)
    Kirkra Caerndow: Countries too, are childish. Look at nationalism. It's as if our society cannot move beyond petty impulse
    Kirkra Caerndow: And while I know enough to talk about, I cannot avoid the petty impulse either
    Pema Pera: yes, that's the odd part . . . knowing and seeing are different
    Pema Pera: if you know that you have an addiction, you continue .. . .
    Pema Pera: but when you SEE your addiction, you can give it up, rather easily
    Kirkra Caerndow: That is true as well. I suppose its a weakness in our language since its less seeing and more understanding
    Kirkra Caerndow: Empathy
    Kirkra Caerndow: Not just yourself, but the effect on others
    Pema Pera: yes
    Kirkra Caerndow: Ah, I love words so much even though they can be a bother sometimes
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Kirkra Caerndow: Well that was a delightful derail

    Back to Kirkra's dream.

    Kirkra Caerndow: Anyways, I suppose in my case the dream makes me curious about spirituality, part of why I came here
    Pema Pera: I'm glad you did -- I much appreciate your serious interest, which is clear from the way you talk about these topics
    Kirkra Caerndow: I've always been rational and agnostic. I can think of matters beyond the physical but I cannot claim to know them. Nor do I think that anyone could. At leat until recently
    Pema Pera: I keep being amazed how our group seems to attract serious people, who yet are open to a degree of being playful as well
    Pema Pera: what changed?
    Kirkra Caerndow: Hah! Yes, that is true
    Kirkra Caerndow: Well, nothing changed except that I came to view myself in a different way
    Kirkra Caerndow: I still will not claim to know anything factual
    Kirkra Caerndow: Belief and spirit is by definition the antithesis of reason and logic
    Kirkra Caerndow: That is what gives me trouble in a way. I think of things rationally all the time but to think a single way is harmful
    Kirkra Caerndow: Uhm, let's see...
    Kirkra Caerndow: I'd also be curious to know how this group is, from a spiritual standpoint
    Kirkra Caerndow: I assume that it's open, more open than I have been at least. Where do you fit in, for example?
    Pema Pera: it is completely open
    Pema Pera: I don't consider myself a Buddhist, though I deeply appreciate Buddhism
    Pema Pera: some members are completely agnostic
    Pema Pera: some even allergic for things spiritual
    Pema Pera: but we don't talk about generalities
    Pema Pera: always grounded in experience
    Pema Pera: and agnostic folks are happy with that
    Kirkra Caerndow: As am I
    Pema Pera: in fact, that's were we all meet, in the ground of real experience
    Kirkra Caerndow: That is good. I enjoy matters of thought and experience. What you truly know, not just what you feel
    Pema Pera: exactly
    Pema Pera: so what you said about rationality
    Pema Pera: it is and is not opposed to spirituality, as follows
    Pema Pera: to use rationality to understand truly is hopeless
    Kirkra Caerndow: Yes, that is my understanding and that is why I am here
    Pema Pera: BUT to see something and THEN to use reason and language to convey what you saw, that makes a lot of sense
    Pema Pera: I'm using reason and language every day here
    Pema Pera: but it took me 39 years to see what I finally see now, more and more
    Kirkra Caerndow: Spirituality without rationality, too, is harmful
    Pema Pera: yes!
    Kirkra Caerndow: I suppose balance is what I am here to find.
    Kirkra Caerndow: And myself, as silly as that sounds
    Pema Pera: not silly at all, Kirkra!
    Pema Pera: finding our true self is what we do here
    Pema Pera: by learning to wear our conventional self more lightly, like clothes, not like skin
    Kirkra Caerndow: It is definitely helpful. It lacks the total anonymity of the greater internet
    Pema Pera: oh yes, the group here is amazing
    Kirkra Caerndow: This program. But it still feels disassociated which makes it easier to speak
    Pema Pera: very supportive
    Pema Pera: which program, Second Life?
    Kirkra Caerndow: yes, that as well
    Pema Pera: what did you mean "This program" -- sorry, didn't get that
    Kirkra Caerndow: Oh yes, I was referring to second life :)
    Kirkra Caerndow: But enough about that
    Kirkra Caerndow: Let's see... The curiosity for me is spirtuality, the nature of dreams and subconscious, and the sense of self, of identiy
    Kirkra Caerndow: All of those aspects are things that I am rethinking

    We continued talking for a bit longer, about some of the specifics of Kirkra's dream, until it was time for us to leave.
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