2008.12.31 07:00 - Being at war & Moondance

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    The guardian and commentator of this meeting was Fefonz.


    The discussion deals with the issue of being, or play as being, when the self/family/country are facing immediate risk or danger. This issue initiates from fefonz's location near a war zone...

    Umbriel, Corvuscorva and Fefonz start the meeting.

    Fefonz Quan: Hello Umbriel
    Umbriel Levenque: Hello Fefonz. How are you?
    Fefonz Quan: quite good, and you?
    Umbriel Levenque: Hello Corvi
    Umbriel Levenque: Very well thanks
    Fefonz Quan: HI Corvi :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hello, Fefonz, Umbriel.
    Fefonz Quan: any new thoughts for the last day of this year?:)
    Umbriel Levenque: hm...
    Umbriel Levenque: How about you Fefonz?
    Fefonz Quan: the ping-pong strategy... :)
    Umbriel Levenque: mm...?
    Fefonz Quan: (i through a ball and you hit it back to me)
    Umbriel Levenque: hm... it is rather a big question to answer... don't have anything quick off-hand
    Umbriel Levenque: I don't do such 'strategies'
    Fefonz Quan: (*throw?)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: mmm.
    Fefonz Quan: well, these days i kind of Play as Being at war
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: at war?
    Fefonz Quan: like having my parents city bombarded 6 times for the last 24 hours
    Fefonz Quan: not so easy to "be" without judgements in that situation
    Umbriel Levenque: Are you referring to the Gaza Strip?
    Fefonz Quan: well, i am in israel now, the other way around
    Umbriel Levenque nods...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh, Fefonz.
    Fefonz Quan: i can say that they don't sound worried too much
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I cannot even imagine.
    Umbriel Levenque: I hope no harm comes to them... not sure what else to say
    Fefonz Quan: somehow the experience here is not horrible at all times
    Fefonz Quan: but the stress is certainly n the air, depends on how much TV you watch
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.

    an occuring guest - NuckChorris appears, and Adams joins too

    Fefonz Quan: hello Nuckch
    Umbriel Levenque: Hello NuckChorris
    NuckChorris Deezul: hello
    Fefonz Quan: have you ever being here?
    NuckChorris Deezul: nope
    NuckChorris Deezul: just checkin things out
    NuckChorris Deezul: you?
    Fefonz Quan: sure. we are doing an exploration here, i'll try to send you a card tht explain a little about it
    Umbriel Levenque: Hello Adams
    Fefonz Quan: Hello adams
    NuckChorris Deezul: Thanks
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi admas
    NuckChorris Deezul accepted your inventory offer.
    NuckChorris Deezul: thanks again fefronz
    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Everyone :)
    NuckChorris Deezul: hey
    Adams Dubrovna: Happy New Year's Eve!
    Fefonz Quan: NuckCh, in the card you got there is an explanation of what we are doing here
    NuckChorris Deezul: I saw that
    Umbriel Levenque: Thank you Adams. All the best to you also
    Umbriel Levenque: brb
    NuckChorris Deezul: Are we supposed to hear something while we are here?
    Fefonz Quan: i sould mention that our chat here is recorded,
    Fefonz Quan: should*
    Fefonz Quan: so by participating you should approve of that recording
    NuckChorris Deezul: Hmmm.... I hear a whole lotta nothing
    Adams Dubrovna: No sound, just text chat
    NuckChorris Deezul: yep
    Adams Dubrovna: Welcome NuckChorris


    Wishes for the new year leads to the discussion of the effect of external conditions on our practice and experience

    Fefonz Quan: Happy New Year Adams
    Adams Dubrovna: Thank you Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: i hope the incoming year will be peaceful, happy and creative for all of us
    Umbriel Levenque: I'm afraid it's time for me to take my leave. I wish you all much good fortune in the New Year
    Fefonz Quan: bye umbriel
    Adams Dubrovna: Bye Umbriel. Good to see you again :)
    Adams Dubrovna: If we all stick with PaB, I am sure it will be Fefonz :)
    Fefonz Quan: i hope so too, before you came in i discissed a little of outside effects that might donate too
    Fefonz Quan: discussed*
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..it is very different to be unnattached when safe...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think.
    Fefonz Quan: i totally agree.
    Adams Dubrovna: Yes, that is true. I spoke glibly I am afraid
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: no...I didn't mean anything at all about what you said...
    Adams Dubrovna: but it is true that outside forces affect us
    Fefonz Quan: i heard some weeks ago a saying that our self/ego shows most strongly when we are at risk
    Adams Dubrovna: hmmm...and at stress
    Corvuscorva Nightfire considers and nods..I don't know much about this....
    Adams Dubrovna: Hill Bill :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but that seems true to me.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: can I repost your remarks, Fefonz?
    Adams Dubrovna wishes the newbies wouldn't run around the place when they leave :)
    Fefonz Quan: sure
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: [7:14] Fefonz Quan: like having my parents city bombarded 6 times for the last 24 hours
    [7:15] Fefonz Quan: not so easy to "be" without judgements in that situation
    [7:15] Umbriel Levenque: Are you referring to the Gaza Strip?
    [7:15] Fefonz Quan: well, i am in israel now, the other way around
    Fefonz Quan: i seems true to me too corvi.
    Adams Dubrovna: a very serious and dangerous situation
    Fefonz Quan: indeed it is
    Fefonz Quan: i came here from the US for the winter break, and got a real vacation :-/
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Deet
    Deet Roecastle: hello


    Solobill joins, and the participant wonder how does our PasB practice help to deal with daily life emotional situations

    Fefonz Quan: Hello Solobill
    Solobill Laville: Heya, Fefonz, just listening :)
    Solobill Laville: Glad you had a nice (and brief) respite here over your break...
    Fefonz Quan: respite?
    Solobill Laville: a break from being right in the middle of the troubles over there I mean
    Fefonz Quan: yes, right.
    Fefonz Quan: and tonight i'm celebrating my wifes birthday
    Solobill Laville: Ah, great!
    Fefonz Quan: so many emotiona; things going on at a time
    Adams Dubrovna: yes
    Solobill Laville: yes
    Solobill Laville: Do you find PaB helps at all? Or even just engaging with us here and talking about it?
    Fefonz Quan: i think one of the things the Being experience gives is i little more ability to
    Fefonz Quan: move from one situation to another
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods
    Adams Dubrovna: It is a good insite about the reltion between self and danger as survuival instincts kick in
    Fefonz Quan: be glad on the happy occasion, and sad on the sad occasions
    Fefonz Quan: i agree adams
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: to moving from one to another.
    Solobill Laville: I have been to 2 funerals in the past 7 days or so, and I had that same thought, and how it must be in someplace like Iraq....
    Fefonz Quan: and being in the moment makes the transition better
    Fefonz Quan: sorry to hear that Solo
    Solobill Laville: Ah, thanks, that's OK, both had lived long fruitful happy lives.. (84 and 85 years respectively)
    Fefonz Quan: that's a good thing
    Solobill Laville nods
    Fefonz Quan: yet one of the things i wonder about in my practice
    Fefonz Quan: is the notion of being without judgement and equinimity (a buddhist term i think)
    Fefonz Quan: while we do want to experience lively what's going on with us


    Here comes Moon, and bring a new spirit of joy and amusement to the gathering

    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Moon
    Moon Fargis: hello
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hello
    Fefonz Quan: hello moon :)
    Solobill Laville: That is very challenging Fefonz, in your circumstances
    Adams Dubrovna: yes
    Fefonz Quan: yet, my situation right now, is sitting in a calm city and writing on SL
    Solobill Laville: Thich Nhat Hanh is a pretty good teacher on some of those topics and aspects of self as they relate to war / conflict
    Solobill Laville: (Hi, Moon)
    Fefonz Quan: i have some of his books, and i really likes his approach
    Fefonz Quan: profound, but yet so full of compassion and down to earth and daily life
    Solobill Laville: Yes, and powerful due to his background with the Vietnam war
    Solobill Laville: Forgiveness may be the key thing there...very Christ-like as well...
    Fefonz Quan: nods
    Fefonz Quan: (Moon never fails to amuse me with your changes appearances :)
    Fefonz Quan: changed*
    Adams Dubrovna: Forgiveness is so freeing
    Moon Fargis: i look funny hmhm :)
    Adams Dubrovna worries about Moon getting encouragement
    Fefonz Quan: Solo, i think forgiveness is somehow of the after times
    Fefonz Quan: :-)
    Solobill Laville: Do you mean, after something has happened?
    Fefonz Quan: yes
    Fefonz Quan: i would pat moon, if i knew how...
    Moon Fargis: just pat :)
    Fefonz Quan: pat
    Moon Fargis purrzzzzzzzzz
    Adams Dubrovna: Fefoz, in some ways yes, and in some ways no
    Solobill Laville: I have found personally that forgiveness starts with the self
    Fefonz Quan pats moons head
    Adams Dubrovna: yes Bill
    Adams Dubrovna: frees
    Moon Fargis purrzzzzzzzzz
    Adams Dubrovna: It fess oneself
    Adams Dubrovna: Harder to do WHILE


    Dealing with fear, and - the dance begins!

    Fefonz Quan: for an example, when you fight someone one-on-one,
    Fefonz Quan: you need to deal with fear and action
    Fefonz Quan: after this you might forgive him
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Fefonz Quan: (for making you hit him, for example :))
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: there is more than one step...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and yes...
    Adams Dubrovna: or you might just stop fighting
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it isn't all...turn the other cheek exactly...
    Adams Dubrovna: not easy but another approach
    Moon Fargis: *meow meow*
    Adams Dubrovna: freeing yourself from the anger
    Fefonz Quan: and fear is one of the most self blowing-up
    Adams Dubrovna: yes, fear
    Moon Fargis: dancing relives often


    Moon stands before the audience and starts dancing a cheerful and funny dance

    Fefonz Quan: emotions
    Corvuscorva Nightfire wonders when one fights to preserve a pattern and when one chooses to let it go....
    Fefonz Quan: you might stop fighting, ut the implications might be severe
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Fefonz Quan: *but
    Adams Dubrovna: they are difficult choices
    Solobill Laville: Yes it does Moon
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Adams Dubrovna: :)
    Fefonz Quan tickles moon belly
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
    Fefonz Quan: that's a nice dance :)
    Fefonz Quan: "and that's to smile and laugh and dance and sing" - life of Brian
    Moon Fargis: phheew
    Adams Dubrovna: :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire giggles.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I must go.
    Adams Dubrovna: bye Corvi :)
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Corvi
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Goodbye all, till Sunday.
    Fefonz Quan: have a Happy new year!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and you, as well.
    Adams Dubrovna: Have a good week :)
    Solobill Laville: bye, corvi
    Moon Fargis: ok also need to go ^^
    Moon Fargis: see you later ^^/
    Adams Dubrovna: bye Moon :)
    Solobill Laville: Bye, Moon
    Fefonz Quan: See you Moon :)
    Adams Dubrovna: Thanks for the dance


    Actions, attachment and intention

    Fefonz Quan: so when the need for action is strong, our concepts of "non-doing" are challenged
    Adams Dubrovna: yes they are
    Fefonz Quan: non-doing on your meditation pillow is first grade task compared to it
    Fefonz Quan: yet we start with tose classes oviously
    Fefonz Quan: those*
    Solobill Laville: What is interesting to me is that relationship between action and non-doing...
    Fefonz Quan: for me as well
    Fefonz Quan: i now that non-doing is not "not-doing"
    Fefonz Quan: knw*
    Fefonz Quan: know*
    Solobill Laville: With the height of emitions from such conflicts it is very difficult to act without attachment
    Solobill Laville: right
    Fefonz Quan: exactly
    Fefonz Quan: so non-doing is doing - but with(out) certain intention
    Solobill Laville: I'd add to that that intention is the front-end aspect of attachment, and expectations / outcomes are the back-end, and both represent attachment
    Solobill Laville: Intention seems to me to sometimes be more hidden from the person acting
    Fefonz Quan: let's take a simple example:
    Fefonz Quan: your child is standing under a coconut tree, and you see one coconut starting to fall
    Fefonz Quan: to you stop it/push him aside?
    Fefonz Quan: and in what intention?
    Fefonz Quan: (to==do)
    Solobill Laville: Just act
    Fefonz Quan: ok.
    Solobill Laville: The have a pina colada
    Adams Dubrovna: That is a sitution with negatives consequences to acting
    Adams Dubrovna: without not with
    Solobill Laville: *n
    Fefonz Quan: now, instead of the coconut there is a fist of your neightbour
    Fefonz Quan: going toward him, and in order to stop him you should hurt him
    Fefonz Quan: what now?which act? which intention?
    Solobill Laville: Yes, I understand your point, Fefonz, and it is a great challenge of the human condition
    Solobill Laville: But the consequences are just that...and they are different depending on your perspective
    Adams Dubrovna: There also is a layer that there is a misuderstanding of neighbor's intentions
    Solobill Laville: If you just act, there really are no consequences, if you do not engage or attach to them...this is slippery ice I know in practical ways
    Adams Dubrovna: possibility of misunderstanding*
    Fefonz Quan: could you act without fear, anger, hatred
    Solobill Laville: Yes you could
    Fefonz Quan: i can say "just act' myself, but i couldnt do it
    Adams Dubrovna: With this situation, there would be more to the story
    Solobill Laville: RIght, me either on most things...
    Fefonz Quan: so there is a long way to go here
    Fefonz Quan: i agree there is more to the story adams, tried to keep it simple and immeduate
    Fefonz Quan: immediate
    Solobill Laville: Such is this world...sometimes simplicity helps
    Adams Dubrovna: We are wired to protect our child at all costs
    Fefonz Quan: if we do, then we can never be wihtout attachemnt
    Fefonz Quan: it is the same as protecting the self at all costs
    Fefonz Quan: i i thught that's the core of the issue we are trying to get over here
    Solobill Laville: Well, is there a difference between out child and another's child? Or a friend? An acquaintance?
    Fefonz Quan: (on some level)'
    Solobill Laville: *our
    Fefonz Quan: according toAdams, yes
    Adams Dubrovna not very well versed in these things but the instinct to protect one's child goes deeper than atachment and deeper than protecting oneself
    Solobill Laville: I agree with that, Adams
    Solobill Laville: The other things...all the way to enemy...require work at removing roadblocks
    Fefonz Quan: there goes the non-duality/equinimity of all things
    Fefonz Quan: and Adams just desribed the core of my popint here
    Solobill Laville: Well, perhaps that is a part of the whole...but not freestanding as a fact or law
    Solobill Laville: Part of the big picture...and
    Solobill Laville: due to real circumstances, it may simply not be possible to remove those types of roadblocks
    Solobill Laville: within this existence, or only some of them...
    Solobill Laville: (don't want to bring up other topics here, this one is big enough) ;)
    Fefonz Quan: More over - do we want to move them?
    Solobill Laville: Right...that is my bias...
    Fefonz Quan: if we do - can we still be called human?
    Solobill Laville: Others would argue there's nothing to be removed
    Solobill Laville: Well, to flip that on its head, Fefonz
    Solobill Laville: Is there anything we could do or not do that isn't human?
    Fefonz Quan: maybe
    Fefonz Quan: maybe if we learn to be non-jusgemental towards all things, we become non-human in a sense
    Fefonz Quan: judgemental*
    Solobill Laville: I heard a great quote on the "life process" of the human condition that this reminds me of
    Solobill Laville: Human - humane - humanistic - humble - humus
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Fefonz Quan: humus is one of my favorites :)
    Adams Dubrovna: These kinds of conflicts are beyond our control. Under normal situations it is best if we look to finding an end to conflicts. Only our leaders can do that in these situations
    Adams Dubrovna: so we feel a bit helpless
    Fefonz Quan: yes adams, i was talking on much more individual simple issues
    Fefonz Quan: i know politics is much more complicated
    Adams Dubrovna: Yes, I know you do and I understand your difficulty with this
    Solobill Laville: I'd be very interested to see how these ideas and practices affect your life during this conflict Fefonz
    Solobill Laville: If you are willing and able to share
    Fefonz Quan: maybe i will in later talks (i did a little in the beginning of this one)
    Solobill Laville: It is something that I can't relate to here in the States, in your way
    Solobill Laville: brb
    Adams Dubrovna: yes, me too
    Fefonz Quan: i need to leave soon,
    Adams Dubrovna: Yes, we have gone overtime
    Fefonz Quan: it was good talking to you hear
    Fefonz Quan: Happy new year!
    Gaya Ethaniel is Online
    Adams Dubrovna: You too. I will be thinking about you
    Adams Dubrovna: Happy new year to you too
    Fefonz Quan: thanks. good bye :)
    Solobill Laville: back and bye!
    Adams Dubrovna: bye :)
    Adams Dubrovna: bye Bill
    Fefonz Quan: bye solo

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