((** The discussion started with a world tour of beers. Thus fortified, Pema went on the offensive, pressing the Franciscan Geo to make connections between the Franciscan emphasis on the experiential (Franciscan vs. Aristotelian-Thomistic, one example: http://books.google.com/books?id=38YUAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=Experiential+Franciscan&source=bl&ots=OueQJl50NL&sig=mQ3_yeF_Cyypt6rGGNG_jIxGo7M&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA3,M1 ) and the Franciscan sense of the connectedness of all creation expressed in the Canticle of the Sun. Thus firmly reconnected to his lesser brother roots, Geo waffled on the suggestion that phenomenology might, somehow, be involved. Editor’s note: Geo speaks on his own, does not represent any official position and acknowledges that there is a healthy diversity of opinion with the Franciscan family. **))
Geo Netizen: Hi Tarmel
Tarmel Udimo: hi there
Geo Netizen: Happy New Year :)
Tarmel Udimo: yes happy new year
Tarmel Udimo: have you slipped into 2009 yet?
Geo Netizen: Yes .... it is 3 am here
Geo Netizen: So many from lasts night's (7 pm) meeting were already in 2009
Geo Netizen: It was kind of interesting ... people made a point of greeting from one year to the next
Geo Netizen: Hi Pema
Geo Netizen: Happy New Year
Pema Pera: Hi
Tarmel and Geo!
Tarmel Udimo:
hi pema
Pema Pera: Happy New Year to you both too!
Tarmel Udimo: yes happy New Year
Tarmel Udimo: how were the beer(s)?
Pema Pera: was great, thanks :-)
Pema Pera: yebisu on tap this afternoon :-)
((** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapporo_Brewery **))
Pema Pera: quite unusual, even in Japan
Tarmel Udimo: oh so you're still in Japan?
Pema Pera: New Years day is the big day for eating food in Japan, like Thanksgiving and Christmas combined . . . .
Pema Pera: yes
Tarmel Udimo: would love o be there one day
Geo Netizen: So ... 6 pm for you .... you must be stuffed :)
Pema Pera: Yesterday evening a Spanish beer, and I have to agree with you that sometimes warm countries can produce a good beer; this one was Voll Damm
((** http://www.volldamm.es/index.asp **))
Pema Pera: highly recommended!
Tarmel Udimo: grins
Pema Pera: yes, Geo, pretty much
Pema Pera: (I'll try Red Stripe, when I get a chance, Tarmel)
((** http://www.redstripebeer.com/about.html **))
Tarmel Udimo: yeah check it out...
Tarmel Udimo: very light
Tarmel Udimo: refreshing and best served cold
Pema Pera: warm country beers tend to be lighter, perhaps because people need to drink more liquids?
Tarmel Udimo:
gd point
Tarmel Udimo:
smiles
Pema Pera: not that Northern Europeans are not known for drinking lots of beer . . . .
Tarmel Udimo: hehehe
Tarmel Udimo: the Dutch I think are quite good at it?
Tarmel Udimo: smiles
Pema Pera: far too much, sadly so
Pema Pera: far beyond enjoying . . .
Tarmel Udimo: yep its like that in OZ...
Tarmel Udimo: oh I forgot - I put up the logs, but the formatting is not good might need to be looked at
Pema Pera: thank you!
Pema Pera: Perhaps you could ask Storm Nordwind?
Pema Pera: Or any of the other guardians whose format looks right :)
Tarmel Udimo: okay
Pema Pera: (I could help you too, but so many other things to do already :(
Tarmel Udimo: no worries
Tarmel Udimo: would normally ask WOL, but wol not here so will find another victim ;-)
Pema Pera: Geo, I really enjoyed our conversation about the Cloud of Unknowing and related topics -- we ended at the question the role of the experiencer. Shall we pick up from there again, for a bit?
Geo Netizen: If you like .... I'm still processing the term experiencer
Geo Netizen: It’s new in my context
Pema Pera: you preferred that over observer, if I remember correctly
Pema Pera: we can also say "subject" or "self"
Geo Netizen: I think it does better capture what is being discussed
Pema Pera: for me, the practice consequence is that a focus on appearance can go beyond experience, strange as it may sound
Geo Netizen: The term observer is too passive
Pema Pera: in the sense that in some kind of epiphanies, grace, or whatever word we want to use, the distinction between experiencer and experienced can drop away
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: or just in normal happy elation, like walking in a beautiful landscape, where you can "fall into"
Pema Pera: or in dancing, in listening to great music, etc.
Pema Pera: if I were to put words to that, I'd say that what appears comes to the fore, and the structure of experiencer experiencing something experienced drops to the background
Pema Pera: does that sound familiar, recognizable?
Pema Pera: *that appearance comes to the fore
Pema Pera: the very appearing of what appears is a kind of bliss, elation
Geo Netizen: The experiencer is affected by the experience
Geo Netizen: as in beautiful landscape
Pema Pera: perhaps both are affected by something else?
Geo Netizen: great music
Geo Netizen: It has been interesting to read the logs of those experimenting with
Geo Netizen: appearance from an inanimate object’s perspective
Geo Netizen: I've been trying to relate that to our practice of contemplation
Pema Pera: I would love to hear more about that, Geo! But before we lose the above thread:
Pema Pera: may I go back to "The experiencer is affected by the experience"? That strikes me as still a bit too self-centered . . . only one side of the situation; it is equally true that the experience can become deeper when the experiencer opens up -- it seems to me that the two are reciprocal, and that it may be limiting to start from the position of the experiencer, as if that is a given core self; does that make sense?
Pema Pera: so the experiencer can affect the experience as well as the other way around
Pema Pera: neither are fundamental -- we can switch to appearance as more fundamental, more directly given
Pema Pera: but perhaps you see that differently?
Geo Netizen: Yes ... I agree with you point about affect
Geo Netizen: Both are part of a whole that is in some way integral
Geo Netizen: fundamentally connected
Pema Pera: yes, and we tend to hide in the subject pole, like a turtle . . . :)
Pema Pera: the s/o reversal (subject/object reversal) experiment tries to heal that disease a bit . . .
Pema Pera: sorry, you wrote "I've been trying to relate that to our practice of contemplation", could you elaborate on that?
Geo Netizen: to contemplate is very different than to meditate
Pema Pera: (depending on how you define the words; there are many definitions floating around...)
Geo Netizen: s/o reversal is a fresh way to look at that difference
Geo Netizen: (I'm talking out of my tradition of contemplation)
Pema Pera: can you say more about that?
Geo Netizen: Meditation is a deep reflection on something
Geo Netizen: to contemplate is to enter into and
Geo Netizen: seems very similar to the idea of s/o reversal
Geo Netizen: or what we try to do in contemplation
Pema Pera: yes, like being naked for God
Geo Netizen: I may meditate on love of enemy .... think deeply and profoundly and that is good.
Geo Netizen: to contemplate ... I must enter into .... be the enemy .... feel them
Geo Netizen: then reflect on love
Pema Pera: Thanks for sharing those definitions, yes, they make sense, and are probably common in medieval mysticism (Buddhist meditation is clearly defined differently).
Geo Netizen nods
Pema Pera: would it be fair to say that meditation and contemplation are like
Pema Pera: admiration and imitation
Pema Pera: as in imitatio Christi?
((** http://www.leaderu.com/cyber/books/imitation/imitation.html **))
Geo Netizen: in a way but one would not necessarily want to imitate what you are contemplating
Pema Pera: yes, there are different ways of imitating, I guess
Geo Netizen: I think of suicide bombers who detonates in a crowed market
Pema Pera: if you really try to live as Christ may have lived, then it can become contemplation -- do I understand that right?
Pema Pera: entering through the portal of imitation?
Geo Netizen: I must entering their experience if I am to achieve a true love of them as I am called to do.
Geo Netizen: Yet I would certainly not suggest any imitation
Pema Pera: I was specifically thinking about imitatio Christi, not imitating anybody :-)
Pema Pera: but to understand better your distinction
Pema Pera: there are two ways of relating to Christ, if I understand correctly,
Pema Pera: or at least these two
Geo Netizen: I see
Pema Pera: to view everyone one encounters as Christ
Pema Pera: or to try to live as Christ would have lived
Pema Pera: a kind of subject and object version of the same idea
Pema Pera: is either one comparable to contemplation, or could it be?
Geo Netizen: Contemplation is a tool to see the divine in others and
Geo Netizen: to help us live as we believe we should live.
Geo Netizen: So .... I think it is yes to both
Pema Pera: The first is like what Jesus said about the last judgment and the second is like Thomas a Kempis, who wrote Imitatio Christi
Pema Pera: thanks, Geo!
Pema Pera: it is so inspiring to hear these angles from Christianity
Pema Pera: many people I meet seem to think they can only find it in Buddhism . . . .
Geo Netizen nods
Geo Netizen: My puzzle is that is seems almost like the same thing in s/o reversal …
Geo Netizen: but practicing it for inanimate objects ... not sure yet
Pema Pera: as for s/o reversal, when I let myself become the object, with respect to anything really, it is in a sense like "become naked for God", handing over the reigns -- does that make any sense?
Geo Netizen: I see the experiments with the spoon as trying to do that
Pema Pera: the inanimate objects are also part of God's creation
Pema Pera: brother Sun, sister Moon . . . .
((** Reference to Canticle of the Sun by Francis of Assisi, both Latin and English: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/stfran-canticle.txt **))
Geo Netizen: Yes .... I see the point but .... don't yet understand the point.
Geo Netizen smiles
Tarmel Udimo: i think subject/object are one and the same thing...
Geo Netizen: Yes ... I am very proud of our tradition there, I admit
Pema Pera: I am proud of it too :-)
Geo Netizen: and that's part of the connection I been looking at
Pema Pera: yes, Tarmel?
Tarmel Udimo: just that - i noticed in the stillness that it was the same
Geo Netizen: But, Tarmel, that actually raises one of my concerns and that is my belief that you are an eternally unique being ….
Pema Pera: they cannot be separated, indeed . . .
Geo Netizen: so talk of all one and the same …
Tarmel Udimo: yes and does saying they are one and the same change that
Geo Netizen: which is the main point of divergence from Buddhism I think
Geo Netizen:
puzzles me
Tarmel Udimo:
okay
Pema Pera: unique does not have to mean separately existing
Pema Pera: and all connected does not mean not unique
Geo Netizen: Very true
Pema Pera: it strikes me that there are two rather different angles at play here
Geo Netizen: and yes ... connectedness is a very familiar point
Pema Pera: Be praised, my Lord, through our Sister Bodily Death,
Pema Pera: Happy those she finds doing your most holy will.
The second death can do no harm to them.
Pema Pera: (from Francis' song)
Pema Pera: the s/o reversal can be a preparation for the first death
Geo Netizen: Yes ... the last stanza
Pema Pera: giving up the narrow self-clinging of the habitual subject-identification
Pema Pera: by allowing, *daring* to take an object role
Geo Netizen: But again ... it seems that is just what we are trying to do in our practice of contemplation
Pema Pera: yes!
Geo Netizen: yet currently, we are not doing it for inanimate
Pema Pera: Francis does . . .
Geo Netizen: yet as you point out Pema, that would be a natural for us
Pema Pera: Sister Water, Brother Fire
Pema Pera: Sister Spoon :-)
Geo Netizen smiles
Tarmel Udimo: smiles
Pema Pera: How praised thou art for giving us food!
Tarmel Udimo: I used to believe very strongly in God and the christian approach
Pema Pera: what changed, Tarmel?
Geo Netizen: There may even be a paper in the topic :))
Tarmel Udimo: grins
Geo Netizen listens
Pema Pera: I'm game, Geo!
Pema Pera: any time
Geo Netizen: I think many of my fellow Franciscans would be very interested in the connection
Pema Pera: I'd love to write a paper with you about that, Geo
Tarmel Udimo: to answer that question pema will require much effort working my way back through the back brain but i will answer it at some point
Pema Pera: you can just email me some paragraphs, I can email you some back, and we can let it grow
Pema Pera:
sure, Tarmel, no rush!
Pema Pera: whenever it feels right
Pema Pera: for me, if I may Geo, Francis was very close to being a Taoist
((** For a taste: http://74.125.45.132/search?q=cache:TvbjntxP8KkJ:www.loveministries.org/birdflow.doc+Franciscan+Taoist&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us **))
Pema Pera: sharing many of the sensibilities
Geo Netizen smiles
Pema Pera: and he was practical!
Pema Pera: everything he tested
Pema Pera: love that story when he meets Muslims
Pema Pera: debating with an Islamic pundit
Pema Pera: do you remember the details, Geo?
Geo Netizen: He also borrowed heavily from Islamic Sufis
Pema Pera: he did?
Pema Pera: Didn't know that!
Pema Pera: That's wonderful!!
Geo Netizen: Yes ... a brother recently drew many interesting connections between Sufis practices at the time
((** A short example among others of the possibility: http://mysticsaint.blogspot.com/2008/01/saint-francis-of-assisi-meets-shams.html **))
Geo Netizen: and things Francis introduced after he returned form that visit
Pema Pera: WOW WOW ! ! ! I'd love to hear about that
Pema Pera: that feels like hearing that two dear friends fell in love with each other !!
Pema Pera: how nice!
Geo Netizen: I'm sure I still have that article but may have to scan and email since I don't think it is online
Tarmel Udimo: I'd love to read it tooo
Geo Netizen: Yes ... very much so is my understanding
Geo Netizen: We refer to it as our Franciscan Muslim roots
Pema Pera: I was referring to a story I read about Francis having a dialogue with an Islamic counter part
Pema Pera: and since they couldn't agree
Pema Pera: Francis invited his Islamic debate partner
Pema Pera: to walk into the fire, to see whom God would protect
Pema Pera: (very unfair move by a Taoist!)
Tarmel Udimo: yes very unfair
Pema Pera: the other declined . . .
Pema Pera: the Sultan was very impressed
Pema Pera: well if Fire is really your Brother, you can do that . . . .
Geo Netizen: Yes .... and I believe Francis left very impressed with the Sultan and the Sufis
Pema Pera: that part I didn't know -- very much looking forward to reading about that
Pema Pera: as for "a paper" just send me whatever you like -- or we could start writing it on the PaB wiki, either way
Pema Pera: How about syncing our schedules and meeting in Assisi to write our paper?
Tarmel Udimo: this has been most interesting - I am being called for dinner and must go
Pema Pera: (I'm serious!)
Pema Pera: yeah, dinner time here too, Tarmel :-)
Geo Netizen: Bye Tarmel .... so glad you could be here
Pema Pera: How shall we post the log?
Pema Pera: yes, thank you both!
Tarmel Udimo: geo can you send me some info about you and your order?
Tarmel Udimo: as i am in the dark and would rather be in the light ;-)
Geo Netizen: Yes .... through I happen to be a bit odd in my situation :)
Tarmel Udimo:
yes?
Pema Pera:
odd?
Tarmel Udimo: can you say more?
Geo Netizen: Third Order Seculars usually don't live conventually
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Geo Netizen: and usually aren't attached to a Diocese
Tarmel Udimo: looking up Third Order Seculars..
Pema Pera musing on "conventionally" and "convent" . . . .
Pema Pera: http://www.tssf.org/
((** The above link is for Anglican Franciscans **))
((** The International Fraternity of the Secular Franciscan Order: http://www.ciofs.org/en.htm **))
Geo Netizen: so I have unique possibilities that I enjoy
Pema Pera: (Geo, would you mind putting up the chat log?)
Pema Pera: (or shall I do it?)
Tarmel Udimo: in the world and not of the world
Pema Pera: yes
Geo Netizen: I can do it .... I did volunteer
Pema Pera: thanks a lot, Geo!
Geo Netizen nods
Geo Netizen: exactly Tarmel
Pema Pera: to be continued!
Tarmel Udimo:
ciao
Pema Pera:
ciao!
Geo Netizen: Bye
Pema Pera is Offline
Tarmel Udimo: will you be okay on your own ;-)
Geo Netizen: Yes .... thanks for asking
Geo Netizen: It was so good to have you here
Tarmel Udimo: yes it felt good just to listen
Geo Netizen: pax et bonum Tarmel :)
Tarmel Udimo: all good and peaceful - yes
Tarmel Udimo: bye
Geo Netizen smiles
Geo Netizen: bye
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