2009.04.14 19:00 - Ethics & Nothing

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

    I arrived to Pila, Eos, and Threedee discussing the earthquake in Hawaii and levels of awareness.    

    Pila Mulligan: hi Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Pila
    Pila Mulligan: how are you?
    Eos Amaterasu: I'm fine
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: You're in/from Hawaii?
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Pila Mulligan: hi Threedee
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Threedee
    Pila Mulligan: been here about 24 years
    Pila Mulligan: we had a magnitude 5 earthqauke ten miles away this afternoon
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Pila and Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: !
    Pila Mulligan: pretty exciting
    Pila Mulligan: how are you threedee?
    Threedee Shepherd: fine thanks
    Pila Mulligan: no damage done here -- it was probably magma moving under the volcano
    Threedee Shepherd: and how are both of you
    Pila Mulligan: fine also, thanks
    Eos Amaterasu: Pretty good on most levels
    Threedee Shepherd: yeah you gotta watch out for Magma, sh'e quite volatile
    Pila Mulligan: yes, she can get hot
    Threedee Shepherd: Eos, I'm happy to be fine on the one level I am aware of ^.^
    Pila Mulligan: hmm, are we sliding into the next topic?
    Threedee Shepherd: HE started it ^.^
    Pila Mulligan: levels of awareness :)
    Eos Amaterasu: I did not want to make an overly absolute statement
    Threedee Shepherd: ahhh
    Threedee Shepherd: I am willing to do so, knowing that if reality is what I think it is, I might really think I am absolutely fine
    Threedee Shepherd: who is GoC tonight?
    Pila Mulligan: how could reality not be what you think it is?
    Pila Mulligan: I'm not GoC
    Eos Amaterasu: I am not a guardian
    Threedee Shepherd: well there is reality and Reality. reality arises from my perception and is what I think it is. Bir R Reality is "as the saying goes" "what remains after I stop believing in it"
    Eos Amaterasu: or a cigar :-)
    Threedee Shepherd: Nor am I.
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes Eos, but you could be the elusive "pipe"
    Threedee Shepherd: *Big R
    Threedee Shepherd: Ahh Ekiza, YOU must be the GoC tonite?
    Threedee Shepherd: Eliza
    Pila Mulligan: hi Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Actually, No. I'm a Monday morning girl. :)
    Eos Amaterasu: It was a pipe actually, wasn't it? the ceci not a pipe
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pila, Three, Eos :)
    Threedee Shepherd: yup, a pipe
    Threedee Shepherd: But that was last night's discussion about signified and signifier
    Eos Amaterasu: GoC = Guardian of Conversation?
    Eliza Madrigal: I started to attend a discussion a moment ago but found myself compelled to come here...felt slightly rude to leave. Hm
    Threedee Shepherd: I think it is Guardian On Call, but could be wrong
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: being beckons
    Threedee Shepherd: Did our vibes attract you Eliza, and/or do you have a topic you would like to pose?
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I've no particular topic...just wanted to see what you all were figuring out tonight :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    Pila Mulligan: I mentioned to Threedee and Eos earlier Eliza that after Maxine's workshop we had a magnitude 5 earthquake here
    Eliza Madrigal: yes?!
    Pila Mulligan: what is the meaning of life becomes a secondary question at times
    Pila Mulligan: :) just excitement no damage
    Eliza Madrigal: indeed, am glad to hear that Pila (no damage)
    Eliza Madrigal: And on the whole...little damage also?
    Pila Mulligan: I have not heard yet
    Pila Mulligan: we kind of skirted around the topic of levels of awareness just before you arrived
    Eliza Madrigal: Excellent, in what way?
    Pila Mulligan: "The quake was centered nine miles south of Volcano, and 27 miles south-southwest of Hilo. Both Big Island fire and civil defense authorities had no reports of damage"
    Pila Mulligan: there -- no damage :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh good!
    Pila Mulligan: well, Eos is fine at most levels and Threedee is fine at the level he is aware of
    Pila Mulligan: in response to 'how are you'
    Pila Mulligan: both seem to be undamaged
    Pila Mulligan: but it leaves the question of what levels are we not aware of
    Eliza Madrigal: and you Pila, aside from not damaged?
    Pila Mulligan: I'm in need of ice cream
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Well certainly that
    Pila Mulligan: earthquakes always make we want ice cream

    Levels of awareness travelled into ethics and balance ...

    Pila Mulligan: now Stim seems to talk about levels of awareness sometimes
    Pila Mulligan: syaing that you have to see some levels that are beyond the mundane view of things to appreciate them
    Pila Mulligan: ergo, seeing is believeing
    Pila Mulligan: and maybe they are beyond words, but that was yesteday
    Eliza Madrigal: You know, I was going to keep the workshops down to only Tuesday and Friday, but I realized that thinking about these things required the ethics discussions.
    Eliza Madrigal: If you all want, I'll claim the log?
    Eos Amaterasu: Which workshops?
    Pila Mulligan: I certainly agree that ethics cannot be lost in the search for higher levels of awareness
    Eliza Madrigal: The Kira workshops, Eos. Let me see if I have a card....
    Eliza Madrigal: Pila, yes
    Pila Mulligan: (there was also something earlier about cigars and pipes, but it went over my head :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Eos, I gave you one card...about Stim's workshop
    Eos Amaterasu: thnx, Eliza
    Pila Mulligan: my sense is you do all these practices and glimpse higher levels of awareness and get enlightened and then pay the rent and wahs the laundry
    Eos Amaterasu: My response about levels probably meant something like that I was okay in some absolute sense,
    Eliza Madrigal: I did read through the log from Stim's PaB session yesterday, and it was 'funny' that I've been thinking along those lines too....of not losing sight of the practical
    Pila Mulligan: just like before, but maybe a little more enlightened
    Eos Amaterasu: but there's various relative levels I may not be, am not
    Pila Mulligan: about invisible things :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes...laundry and practice should be the same, imo
    Pila Mulligan: so you need ethics just as much after as before
    Eos Amaterasu: prep and event and clean-up also
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, Eos. Yes, I think I get that.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: now Threedee is no doubt correct that one level awareness is enough
    Pila Mulligan: but I bet Threedee and every pragmatist every born had to squeeze a few new things into that level form time to time
    Eos Amaterasu: is that one level "nowness"?
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm hung up wonderfully, on the term "immediacy"
    Pila Mulligan: as in nowness :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, now seems pragmatic

    Writing this a day later, I can tell you that I thought of that term "nowness" all day long...thinking that it sounds very expansive...  :)

    Threedee Shepherd: jperhaps, but so far everything either fits or cannot be understood
    Threedee Shepherd: from Rene Magritte-surrealist painter comes this
    Pila Mulligan: well, there's no debating either of those points from me
    Pila Mulligan: q'est ce que?
    Eos Amaterasu: Thanks, ThreeDee
    Pila Mulligan: s'il n'est pas une pipe, q'est ce que?
    Eos Amaterasu: une peinture?
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi thor
    Eliza Madrigal: lightning from the sky
    Threedee Shepherd: actually, pixels on a screen, perhaps
    Eliza Madrigal: :) So Three....what means this?
    Pila Mulligan: this seems to be in the 'what are words' topic
    Threedee Shepherd: I think it came up before you arrived as a shorthand for exactly what is *I* or perhaps reality
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah...a pipe, a pitcher, a bowl?
    Resting Thor: i exist only in my perceptions that i label as me
    Pila Mulligan: so how could reality not be what you think it is?
    Threedee Shepherd: Eos made reference to it
    Threedee Shepherd: Relaity is what is left after I stop bvelieving in it. It is just that I have NO way to directly access it
    Pila Mulligan: yet
    Pila Mulligan: they are upgrading the Hubble Telescope
    Eliza Madrigal: This direct knowledge idea.... the best way I've got to describe it...would be eye-to-eye rather than eye-looking-out...but am still turning it over
    Eliza Madrigal: eye-looking-out is projectioin
    Eliza Madrigal: Pila, that's great news
    Threedee Shepherd: I would like to go back to the topic of ethics, OK?
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay...sure
    Threedee Shepherd: Are ethics absolute. Do they "come from" somewhere?
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Pila Mulligan: they evolved
    Pila Mulligan: from primordal being
    Eliza Madrigal: People can label their ideas as ethics sometimes
    Resting Thor: ethics have to be relative since they are dependent on the point of view
    Resting Thor: certainly not an absolue
    Resting Thor: absoute
    Resting Thor: haha
    Resting Thor: can't type
    Pila Mulligan: is compassion not an abolsute?
    Resting Thor: of course not
    Pila Mulligan: love?
    Resting Thor: ditto
    Pila Mulligan: light?
    Resting Thor: is that an ethic?
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Pila Mulligan: the higher light
    Resting Thor: can all beings perceive it?
    Pila Mulligan: eventually
    Pila Mulligan: just like everyone can get to heaven, eventually
    Resting Thor: i thought ethics were codes of behavior
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm....but we're still deaing with words, which are labels, and therefore require a label-er
    Pila Mulligan: ahh, trying to transcend morality
    Pila Mulligan: my ethics defintion is not behavioral
    Eliza Madrigal: Go on Pila
    Pila Mulligan: did
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pila Mulligan: high light
    Pila Mulligan: best ethic :)
    Pila Mulligan: an evolution
    Eliza Madrigal: I think of ethics with actions...and yes...actions are refined/evolve
    Eliza Madrigal: based on capacity and perception
    Eos Amaterasu: Ethics as rule-governed behavior vs ethics as enacted know-how
    Eliza Madrigal: enacted know-how...Hm
    Threedee Shepherd: Who makes the rules
    Pila Mulligan: the indiviudal
    Eos Amaterasu: the individual in context...
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Pila Mulligan: or his mommy
    Resting Thor: or his angel
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Eliza Madrigal: :) And Pila you are pointing to "ultimate ethics" then?
    Pila Mulligan: kind of, not sure really
    Threedee Shepherd: if everyone and anyone can make the rules, what makes them "RULES"
    Resting Thor: ultimately there is only the absence of ethics :)
    Pila Mulligan: I'm just responding to Threedee's Q: Are ethics absolute.
    Pila Mulligan: they are not really rule
    Pila Mulligan: love is a condition
    Eliza Madrigal: :) people make them into rules
    Resting Thor: a relative one :)
    Pila Mulligan: it doe sont say, turn left at 54th street
    Eliza Madrigal: but someone might say "if you loved me youd turn at 54th street..."
    Pila Mulligan: their ego speaking
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Pila Mulligan: next day it would be 55th street
    Pila Mulligan: never ends
    Eliza Madrigal: but they could call it ethics
    Pila Mulligan: they could indeed
    Pila Mulligan: and many do :)
    Eliza Madrigal: and say you weren't following
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Pila Mulligan: balsphemer
    Eliza Madrigal: if you decided to take the shorter route
    Eliza Madrigal: :)yes
    Pila Mulligan: heretic
    Eliza Madrigal: or the longer, winding route
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Threedee Shepherd: Well, there was an oped in my newspaper this morning saying that we are all going to hell in a handbasket because we have lost toouch with the Bible-God-given rules (ethics) of days of yore.
    Pila Mulligan: but if we do all these htings that give us all this enlightenment, the least we can do is live as well as we can
    Eos Amaterasu: the absolute permeates the kitchen sink - that's ethics
    Eliza Madrigal: What paper you reading there, Three?
    Eliza Madrigal: agreed, Pila
    Threedee Shepherd: Boulder Camera
    Resting Thor: the paper is right :)
    Pila Mulligan: well, I'm not a handbasket traveller myself
    Eliza Madrigal: How so Resting?
    Pila Mulligan: right wing
    Eliza Madrigal: :) I'm fond of teleporting
    Resting Thor: in the sense that morality ripens
    Pila Mulligan: evolves :)
    Resting Thor: ethics should have good results and prevent bad results
    Pila Mulligan: aye
    Pila Mulligan: that's it Thor
    Threedee Shepherd: To this pragmatist, all ethics are situational, and depend on your core purposes
    Eliza Madrigal: And in so far as possible, leave no traces
    Pila Mulligan: aye, that's it Three
    Eliza Madrigal: Tarani, Hello!
    Pila Mulligan: aye, Eliza
    Resting Thor: hi Tarani
    Tarani Kira: jo :)
    Tarani Kira: oops hi :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Resting Thor: welcome to my cushion :)
    Pila Mulligan: you probably have been here bfore, Tarani?
    Threedee Shepherd: Now, there are good arguments that the "typical ethics" of humans are the ones that allowed social system to succeed, in terms of selection

    Xinmingzi, I must tell you, is a tree stump who has three large redwoods along with. 

    Pila Mulligan: h Xinmingzi
    Pila Mulligan: yes, evolve
    Pila Mulligan: handbasket temrinology
    Eos Amaterasu: Hello
    Eliza Madrigal: Ximningzi, hello
    Eos Amaterasu: Absolute -> being good -> doing good -> relative
    Pila Mulligan: yes, we need to allow the dichotomy Eos
    Eliza Madrigal: hhahhah Pila, did you bring X? haha with the palm trees?
    Eliza Madrigal: Xinmingzi....Welcome to you :)
    Pila Mulligan: I tihnk those are redwoods Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: wait...let me see closer.....
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah...haha. yes, and a shredded wheat?
    Xinmingzi Pinion: Yes...I was cut down in '73
    Pila Mulligan: and you stayed green
    Pila Mulligan: way to go
    Eliza Madrigal: Impressive
    Xinmingzi Pinion: No, I am the stump in the middle
    Resting Thor: they make shredded wheat from pine trees?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes...I see that now :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Xinmingzi Pinion: These re my schildrn
    Eliza Madrigal rubs her eyes
    Xinmingzi Pinion: children
    Tarani Kira: i was going to say you were a stump, X, but I didn't want to offend :-)
    Pila Mulligan: stumped me
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, lovely then....life at work
    Threedee Shepherd: Eliza, I suspect we have not dealt with ethics in the way you first brought them up, perhaps?
    Xinmingzi Pinion: Many people are stumped when the see me....lol
    Pila Mulligan: got it beofre Threedee :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Pila, I leave the easy ones for others
    Eliza Madrigal: Three, do you mean the balancing issue?
    Threedee Shepherd: yes
    Pila Mulligan: as in "thinking about these things required the ethics discussions"
    Eliza Madrigal: Well....it is all relevant actually...all comes together. The aspect of paying attention to "do no harm" and to noticing "right/complete" ethics insofaraspossible...
    Pila Mulligan: thank you Threedee, master of puns
    Eliza Madrigal: IS the balance to "nothingness" sort of work
    Threedee Shepherd: you are welcome, older graasshopper :D
    Pila Mulligan: kung hee fat choy
    Eos Amaterasu: Hmm, or, emptiness/nothingness is not _other_ than form
    Resting Thor: your ethics necessarily evolve as your understanding deepens
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, Eos!! And ultimately, rules aren't going to help much.
    Eos Amaterasu: as they say, your vision should be as vast as the sky, and your conduct as fine as dust
    Pila Mulligan: there goes the forest
    Threedee Shepherd: The ancient Greeks had fine ethical systems, and slaves. How does that fit?
    Eliza Madrigal: Did we scare nature off?
    Eos Amaterasu: Trees had to leave
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: unless they were pines, in which case they had to go needle someone else
    Pila Mulligan: evolution
    Eos Amaterasu: They were not worse than we (greeks)
    Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, one does wonder...when you talk about "evolving" ethics....
    Threedee Shepherd: What kind of *ethics* are consistent with slavery?
    Eliza Madrigal: still seem very far from very common sense sort of realizations
    Resting Thor: o thats an easy one
    Resting Thor: ethics that place a value on your family and prosperity would potentially be justification for slavery of others to that cause
    Pila Mulligan: yep, so a higher sense displaced that need
    Pila Mulligan: eventually
    Eliza Madrigal: If see nature as part of us, we are attentive to it, but if we see the world as outside ourselves, we don't treat it well...same with people
    Eos Amaterasu: as well as machines
    Tarani Kira: or just a different social system perhaps
    Pila Mulligan: or the Thirteenth Amendment in the United States
    Resting Thor: do no evil...unless you have to
    Threedee Shepherd: Are ethics tied-to or related to Religion?
    Pila Mulligan: by priests?
    Pila Mulligan: sure
    Eos Amaterasu: Also tied to politics
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: Threedee you quoted a study the other day that related the first rules of ethics to survivial
    Pila Mulligan: do oyu rememebr?
    Resting Thor: perhaps where ethics differs from morality then
    Pila Mulligan: yes, morals are usually institutional
    Threedee Shepherd: Actually it was a book, with numerous arguments. Yes, that makes sense to me. Pragmatism wins again!
    Resting Thor: ethics a societial survival feature..morality tied to spiritual values?
    Pila Mulligan: wel it is like the difference between immoral and illegal
    Threedee Shepherd: and what pray-tell, are spiritual values? sounds like daydreams to me.
    Pila Mulligan: (this may be for threedee) immoral is an act contrary to accepted social standards
    Pila Mulligan: illegal is a sick bird
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Pila Mulligan: daydreams acna be spiritual :)
    Eliza Madrigal: YES they can :)))
    Threedee Shepherd groans
    Pila Mulligan: ill eagle :)

    Spiritual, soul, and nothing...

    Eliza Madrigal: To my thinking, "spiritual" you can't see from outside in...
    Resting Thor: i like the ethics as pragmatic and morality as spiritual
    Eliza Madrigal: it is illumination from inside out that then affects everything else
    Pila Mulligan: that's an interesting distinction Resting
    Threedee Shepherd: I am still being obnoxious and asking "What does spiritual mean?"
    Pila Mulligan: so in ELiza's context morality also comes fomr within
    Eliza Madrigal: Well..you used that word
    Resting Thor: of the spirit
    Pila Mulligan: yep, of the spriit
    Eliza Madrigal: I wouldn't have necessarily...
    Threedee Shepherd: OH, of the spirit, you mean Vodka Fumes
    Eliza Madrigal: BUT...
    Pila Mulligan: sprits come in different forms
    Eliza Madrigal: it is the closest maybe in a conversation like this one
    Pila Mulligan: the soul
    Pila Mulligan: but Elzia?
    Threedee Shepherd: yes, there is also bourbon and rye
    Eliza Madrigal sighs and smiles
    Resting Thor: and the subtle winds within the body :)
    Threedee Shepherd: I refuse to even blow near that one Resting
    Resting Thor: i figured that :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, Three. What do you want to say? :)
    Pila Mulligan: our old punster is not accepting the spirit as a viable concept
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah
    Resting Thor: our perceptions define our individual realities
    Threedee Shepherd: What is this thing you call the *soul*? When did it enter the embryo and how can I find it?
    Pila Mulligan: pragmatism = materialism in his tortured thniking
    Pila Mulligan: it waited outside
    Resting Thor: a spirit is real to many
    Pila Mulligan: for some it is still waiting :)
    Resting Thor: becuase they perceive it and label it
    Resting Thor: and it functions for them
    Threedee Shepherd: no pragmatism = psysicalism + (unknowable things that may be important)
    Resting Thor: that is the definitiion of a real thing
    Pila Mulligan: well, then, the soul ma be both unknwon and important
    Threedee Shepherd: Or NOT
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm..a real thing...a labeled perception
    Pila Mulligan: your choice brother
    Resting Thor: unknown is relative only to the sensory suite avialable and the efforts made to discover and analyze the sensory phenomenon
    Pila Mulligan: like micorscopes and telescopes
    Resting Thor: exactly
    Resting Thor: or eyes and ears
    Resting Thor: knowable is a spectrum
    Threedee Shepherd: can I perceive this spirit/soul?
    Pila Mulligan: apparently not :)
    Resting Thor: probably not haha
    Threedee Shepherd: can you?
    Pila Mulligan: too easy 3d
    Pila Mulligan: of course
    Pila Mulligan: can oyu see my foot?
    Threedee Shepherd: yes
    Pila Mulligan: I doubt it
    Pila Mulligan: not form Colorado
    Threedee Shepherd: in principle
    Pila Mulligan: not in fact
    Pila Mulligan: if you cannot see my foot how can you see my soul?
    Threedee Shepherd: And you do not know if I have the power of Far Seeing, so you cannot say that
    Pila Mulligan: do you?
    Resting Thor: if you have a sense that can detect it or logic that can impute it, else not
    Pila Mulligan: when was the last time a pragmatist had the power of far seeing?
    Resting Thor: or authorities you trust i suppose
    Threedee Shepherd: Friends, I do know what I am proposing/debating. What I am trying to get atr is Why do humans need the concept of soul, givin its inherent unknowableness
    Pila Mulligan: Threedee is actually quite spiritual, he's just playing playing the brain's advocate
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah.....I'm getting so comfortable with the faith word right now...strange....some things you DO have to practice before you can see
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay.....well, personally, I'm not big on the word soul either...to me it seems just personality
    Pila Mulligan: personality works
    Eliza Madrigal: will dissolve....
    Eliza Madrigal: and fine :)
    Pila Mulligan: but then what about expereince?
    Threedee Shepherd: what experience?
    Pila Mulligan: does expereince dissolve?
    Resting Thor: i personally think the term soul is too "big" and misused
    Eliza Madrigal: yes...good question
    Pila Mulligan: individual expereince
    Pila Mulligan: like ethics, Thor
    Eliza Madrigal: Resting, yes, I agree with that
    Threedee Shepherd: I lost the thread, sorry. Experience related to what?
    Eliza Madrigal: Experience seems to be housed in personality?
    Threedee Shepherd: and v-v
    Pila Mulligan: Eliza said ' I'm not big on the word soul either...to me it seems just personality will dissolve....
    Eliza Madrigal: I think it is a very uncomfortable idea that it will dissolve...
    Eliza Madrigal: but that's what I tend to think.
    Pila Mulligan: why?
    Eos Amaterasu: at death?
    Threedee Shepherd: Not being dense on purpose, what do you mean Eliza by "to me it seems just personality will dissolve."
    Pila Mulligan: that was actually on two lines of chat ...
    Pila Mulligan: I copied it without the break
    Eliza Madrigal: I know Three...is tricky in here to explain the edges ...because I'm out there
    Eliza Madrigal: I don't know a single thing :)
    Pila Mulligan: ...
    Pila Mulligan: the telling pause :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: And I truly am trying to see "there" as you experience it
    Pila Mulligan: let's help
    Eliza Madrigal: Soul is talked about like it is the concrete thing...
    Eliza Madrigal: like we "have" it forever
    Eliza Madrigal: "it"
    Resting Thor: and yet memory cannot survive death
    Pila Mulligan: how do we know this Thor?
    Threedee Shepherd: <aside/>It does not even survive ageing.
    Eliza Madrigal: well..where would be memory be then, Three?
    Pila Mulligan: that we know 3d
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh pragmatist. :))
    Resting Thor: so the soul would have no memory
    Threedee Shepherd: It does not survive the cessation of brain functioning
    Pila Mulligan: but how do we know this?
    Pila Mulligan: have we died and doen the experiement?
    Eliza Madrigal: There is the collective....and things do seem to resonate there...but I don't know if I like the term collective soul either
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm
    Pila Mulligan: or is it by logic?
    Threedee Shepherd: We make a reasonable extrapolation--I don't think you really want me to go into the science of that now
    Pila Mulligan: so science tells you that
    Pila Mulligan: and so it is ture
    Threedee Shepherd: Pila, please lets tgry to stay on Eliza's "thread"
    Pila Mulligan: how could reality not be what you think it is?
    Eos Amaterasu: if it surprised you
    Threedee Shepherd: Easily, I coujld be Stupid
    Eliza Madrigal cannot even find her thread :)
    Eos Amaterasu: that's dissolvingt!
    Eliza Madrigal: The unwinding road
    Resting Thor: thought is problematic
    Resting Thor: mental and physical sensory perceptions certainly define reality
    Resting Thor: thought is too fleeting
    Pila Mulligan: Eliza's thread, evovled: spiritual ... is an illumination from inside out that then affects everything else
    Eos Amaterasu: after dissolve we recreate, that's play
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: illumination from inside the details
    Eos Amaterasu: synecdoche
    Resting Thor: but thought is part of our mental landscape and therefore part of our reality
    Resting Thor: i have this thought in this my reality
    Eliza Madrigal: and your reality is real?
    Resting Thor: it functions
    Threedee Shepherd: OK. It is late so perhaps another time we could discuss the idea that there is no inside without an outside and no outside without an inside, and thus why do we distinguish these as concepts?
    Pila Mulligan: this will be rememebred as a topic, then :)
    Pila Mulligan: maybe
    Pila Mulligan: if memory serves
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes...no form without emptiness no emptiness without form
    Pila Mulligan: inside-outside
    Resting Thor: may we all remember we're already enlightened
    Eliza Madrigal: :) even when we feel discombobulated
    Threedee Shepherd: Oh, it is inscribed in the spins of little magnets on many hard drives, Pila
    Eliza Madrigal: I hope I understand a little of this when I read it over
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Me too ^.^
    Eliza Madrigal: ahha

    Eos shares a fantastic link which gets us buzzing, but it is a bit late...

    Eos Amaterasu: RE ethics, best thinking I've seen: http://tinyurl.com/cya428 (Francisco Varela)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks, Eos
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, I have read and admire his thinking
    Pila Mulligan: cool -- Neurophenomenology
    Threedee Shepherd: It is exactly fr0om Varela's standpoint on embodiment that I approach this discussion this evening
    Eliza Madrigal: There's a new word Pila
    Eos Amaterasu: embodiment is a topic as well
    Threedee Shepherd: yes, it is what I was getting at when I questioned inside/outside
    Resting Thor: as long as you are benefiting from the discussions :)
    Pila Mulligan: "He introduced into neuroscience the concepts of neurophenomenology, based on the phenomenological writings of Edmund Husserl and of Maurice Merleau-Ponty, and on "first person science," in which observers examine their conscious experience using scientifically verifiable methods."
    Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Varela
    Threedee Shepherd: "All doing is knowing, all knowing is doing" Francisco Varela 1987
    Pila Mulligan: I'd debate that :)
    Resting Thor: that is why we practice :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) yes
    Threedee Shepherd: "[20:42] Pila Mulligan: I'd debate that :) Another time
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Varela's "autopoiesis" bring together the inny & the outy, knowing/perceiving/doing
    Pila Mulligan: inside-outside time maybe
    Eos Amaterasu: Ie, embodiment is a project
    Threedee Shepherd: no, he did not need to go to that extreme to make his arguments
    Resting Thor: study-contemplate-meditate
    Pila Mulligan: now you guys are already debating it :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Eos, I would say Embodiment is Life is a Project
    Eos Amaterasu: Yes
    Resting Thor: we'd have to pretend to disagree to debate it
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: It's way too easy to disagree - words are slippery
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Pila, did you ever get your ice cream?
    Pila Mulligan: not yet ELiza
    Pila Mulligan: and the store has closed, so I must wait
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh no!
    Pila Mulligan: pateince is a virtue
    Eliza Madrigal: So they keep saying
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pila Mulligan: but here's an idea for the wicked ...
    Eliza Madrigal: but is it an ethic? hahahahah
    Pila Mulligan: get some Betty Crocker fudge icign
    Pila Mulligan: put it with soe peanut butter in the microwave
    Pila Mulligan: pour it over a abanan and ice cream
    Pila Mulligan: ... sorry :)
    Eliza Madrigal: is abanan a strange hawaiian fruit?
    Resting Thor: we could eat ice cream and share with it you astrally Three
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: >GRIN<
    Resting Thor: u could try to perceive us eating it :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Sounds yummy though, Pila....a little too sweet before bed maybe
    Threedee Shepherd: ^.<
    Resting Thor: that might be scientific
    Pila Mulligan: it is wicked sweet
    Eliza Madrigal: we could call it scientific if we wanted to
    Pila Mulligan: I wonder if Pema would want to join the inside-outsdie chat -- I bet he is fmailair with Francisco Varela also
    Pila Mulligan: Pema and Threedee might have some comon gorund there
    Threedee Shepherd: He knew him personally. (I think Varela is dead.)
    Pila Mulligan: really
    Eliza Madrigal: We could certainly ask...it has come up i n a lighter fashion other places...maybe a concentrated effort would be interesting
    Eos Amaterasu: Yes, Varela dead (outside looking in :-)
    Pila Mulligan: yes, he died in 2001 according to wiki
    Pila Mulligan: :0
    Eos Amaterasu: He was student of Tulku Ugyen, one of whose sons is Mingyur Rinpoche, whom Varela tutored
    Threedee Shepherd: When I was a youg reductionist (by training) I thought Varela's writings were crazy if not irrelevant. he has become musch better since then ;>
    Pila Mulligan: how so Threedee?
    Eos Amaterasu: Like wine
    Pila Mulligan: ahh, matured :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, I hope I did ^.^
    Pila Mulligan: would you share some of the fine points that helped you see the fellow in a idfferent light, 3d?
    Threedee Shepherd: Actually, it is quite simple. I came to accept two things, pragmatically and experientially
    Threedee Shepherd: phone
    Pila Mulligan: phones rule :)
    Eos Amaterasu: across worlds
    Threedee Shepherd: business
    Pila Mulligan: ahh
    Resting Thor: they are ethical?
    Pila Mulligan: they ceretainly have a mrality of their wn it seems, Thor
    Pila Mulligan: except marketing calls
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm very sleepy now
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you everyone for a lovely and certainly multifaceted conversation :)
    Pila Mulligan: welll, it must be very late there, too, Eliza
    Pila Mulligan: thank you
    Threedee Shepherd: sorry, I need to take this call.
    Pila Mulligan: no proble Threedee
    Eliza Madrigal: quite, yes. :)
    Pila Mulligan: these same pixels and magnets will rememer ...
    Pila Mulligan: "I came to accept two things, pragmatically and experientially" ...
    Eos Amaterasu: I must dissolve as well, thank you all
    Eliza Madrigal: :D Night.
    Pila Mulligan: g'nite Eliza and Eos
    Threedee Shepherd: later, pila, remind me
    Pila Mulligan: ok
    Resting Thor: good night guys
    Pila Mulligan: bye Resting Thor
    Resting Thor: thanks Pila
    Pila Mulligan: nice chat :)
    Pila Mulligan: I'm also off to rl -- see you next time Tarani, Resting asnd Threedee
    Tarani Kira: night Pila
    Tarani Kira: night Threedee
    Threedee Shepherd: nite
    Riddle Sideways: helloooooo sleeping 3d

    Hope Pila had his ice cream.

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