2009.10.08 07:00 - PaB & Philosophy

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    The Guardian for this meeting was genesis Zhangsun. The comments are by genesis Zhangsun.

    Yakuzza Lethecus: morning gen
    genesis Zhangsun: Morning!
    genesis Zhangsun: How are you?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: fine, just checking emails and watching an episode of an american tv show
    genesis Zhangsun: what show?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: house
    genesis Zhangsun: what is that one about?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: about that neurotic doctor who treats his patients like crap :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but he´s supposed to be a good at diagnostics in that show
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s kinda popular
    genesis Zhangsun: oh yes!
    genesis Zhangsun: he goes and lives with the patient no?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: no, he sends his employee´s to break into the homes of the patients :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s no reality tv or something
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s a regular tv series
    Yakuzza Lethecus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_%28TV_series%29
    Yakuzza Lethecus: do you watch any tv ?
    genesis Zhangsun: not so myc a little bit
    genesis Zhangsun: *much
    genesis Zhangsun: I don't own a television
    genesis Zhangsun: but I stream some shows some time
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, i also stream those
    genesis Zhangsun: streaming is great
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t owe a tv either by the way
    Yakuzza Lethecus: those american tv shows are still a bad habit
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but i justifiy it because i watch those in english :P
    genesis Zhangsun: Oh I don't think television is all bad
    genesis Zhangsun: I just know how tempting it can be when I own a television to stay in front of it for far too long
    genesis Zhangsun: but there are some great shows out there I think worth watching
    Yakuzza Lethecus: no medium is bad at all, but there is so much crap and always the temptation
    Yakuzza Lethecus: like who the hell watches big brother ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but somebody most do that since it´s still produced all around the world
    Yakuzza Lethecus: or ther ,,talkshows"
    Yakuzza Lethecus: thats for example stuff most of the people agree that it´s crap
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s complicated right now, i try to swap over to podcasts and media with more persistence
    genesis Zhangsun: I like streaming too because there are no commercials
    genesis Zhangsun: commercials are the worst
    genesis Zhangsun: they just fry your brain
    Yakuzza Lethecus: they have to work otherwise the company´s wouldn´t pay for them
    genesis Zhangsun: indeed and they are very agressive with them in the states
    genesis Zhangsun: I think less so in Germany
    genesis Zhangsun: seems like in Europe there are more regulations
    genesis Zhangsun: especially with regard to commercials targeted at children
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t know
    Yakuzza Lethecus: we have many public tv channels that are payed by nearly everyone
    Yakuzza Lethecus: those tend to have nearly no commercials
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and the quality is decend, but i don´t watch our free tv at all
    Yakuzza Lethecus: www.ard.de
    Yakuzza Lethecus: www.zdf.de
    Yakuzza Lethecus: they have the news online and a selection of the shows is streamed
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i always recommend those to people whom learning german :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: because just deutsche welle can be boring, and if you watch something that might interest you about history for example but ,,in german" or any language ur interested in that works better
    genesis Zhangsun: yes that is true
    Yakuzza Lethecus: for example i think my english just became better and i stayed in practice after school because i wanted to watch startrek episodes earlier and they were in english :P
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: so you learned english in school and through television?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey pema
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Pema
    Pema Pera: Hi Gen and Yaku!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, i learned it in school and i stayed in contact with it through tv show episodes
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i started talking 2 years ago through a gaming habit
    Yakuzza Lethecus: before that it was just horrible school english
    Yakuzza Lethecus: by grammer is still not the best and i don´t even intentionally work to improve it right now
    genesis Zhangsun: well it is quite good I would have to say
    Yakuzza Lethecus: was all tv in the netherlands already in english when you´ve been young pema ?
    genesis Zhangsun: especially for never having lived in an english speaking country
    Pema Pera: it was, Yaku, and subtitled
    Pema Pera: so that was a good way to get used to it, better than dubbing like in Germany
    genesis Zhangsun: indeed some benefits of living in a smaller country
    genesis Zhangsun: there is enough of a market in Germany to pay for the dubbing
    Pema Pera: it was funny to watch German tv with New York city cops speaking fluid German . . . .
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: Pema, you speak german,english,dutch,japanese ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: is there even more ? :)
    Pema Pera: those are the ones I am pretty fluent in :)
    Pema Pera: my french is more rusty
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but you learned it by doing it´s not that you read about chomsky, ferdinand de saussure... ?
    Pema Pera: in high school (gymnasium, like in Germany) I learned Latin and Greek
    Pema Pera: of course by doing -- actually by practicing enough to start thinking in the other language
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i keep wandering how much understanding i might need about language
    Yakuzza Lethecus: language and thinking
    Yakuzza Lethecus: like the sapier whorf hypothesis
    Pema Pera: well, by now we are getting more and more German-speaking avatars in Play as Being -- so we could start having sessions in German, by chance, when the only participants would be, say, Wol, Lia, Bertram, you, Bolonath, me -- am I forgetting someone?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: not that i remember
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i didn´t know bolo is german :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and i love to stay in english :)
    Pema Pera: Artemisia is Swiss German, but she doesn't come very often
    genesis Zhangsun: [7:29] Yakuzza Lethecus: i keep wandering how much understanding i might need about language [7:30] Yakuzza Lethecus: language and thinking
    genesis Zhangsun: Yaku could u say a bit more about that?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, i still try to elaborate more on that, there are concepts like the sapier whorf hypothesis that thought is shifted by language
    Yakuzza Lethecus: the hard form was crap but it´s still mentioned often
    Yakuzza Lethecus: because it was about the hopi indians and that they woulnd´t have ,,time" in their language
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but they do :)
    genesis Zhangsun: I didn't realize that sapir whorf has been discredited
    Yakuzza Lethecus: there is still truth in it i believe
    genesis Zhangsun: Pema any thoughts on sapir whorf?
    Pema Pera: I don't know him
    Yakuzza Lethecus: thats been 2 guys actually
    Yakuzza Lethecus: edward sapier and benjamin whorf
    Yakuzza Lethecus: sapir
    Yakuzza Lethecus: sry
    Pema Pera: (my connection is very slow, sorry; in the train between New York and Princeton)
    genesis Zhangsun: ah okay
    genesis Zhangsun: I am also very interested in language Yaku
    genesis Zhangsun: as you know I have been reading Heidegger and I am fascinated with the idea that "language is the house of being"
    genesis Zhangsun: sorry Being., big B
    Yakuzza Lethecus: there was a short essay of heidegger i read a few month ago
    Yakuzza Lethecus: dwelling
    genesis Zhangsun: yes what was it about?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: building dwelling thinking
    Pema Pera: yes, Heidegger did have a sense of Being, clearly
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but i don´t recall that much, i read it because jen dix suggested that
    Yakuzza Lethecus: on thothica there are more people interested in existentialism
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: I got the impression in "On the Way to Language" by Heidegger that he understood very well the notion of action without self
    Pema Pera: Interestingly, both Heidegger and existentialism go back to Husserl
    genesis Zhangsun: I didn't realize that existentialism as a movement began with Husserl Pema
    Pema Pera: or at least were strongly inspired by it
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i still don´t know where the difference is between phenomenalism and existentialism, i am still in a struggle to understand the patterns
    Pema Pera: Sartre, for example, got interested in philosophy through Husserl
    genesis Zhangsun: really!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: a few people on thothica were reading this one
    Yakuzza Lethecus: http://www.amazon.com/Four-Phenomeno.../dp/0415073545
    Pema Pera: Sartre was impressed by Husserl "doing philosophy" not just talking about it
    genesis Zhangsun: my understanding Yak
    genesis Zhangsun: and I could be very wrong so Pema please feel free to jump in
    Pema Pera: wrong about what Gen?
    genesis Zhangsun: but it seems to me that Husserl's phenomenology starts with raw phenomena without the assumption of a self/subject that exists
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it was facinating that husserl changed his mind so often
    genesis Zhangsun: while existentialism assumes the subject/object dichotomy
    Pema Pera: As for Sartre: see http://www.iep.utm.edu/sartre-ex/ -- there in chapter 2. Early works, the first lines is: Sartre’s early work is characterised by phenomenological analyses involving his own interpretation of Husserl’s method.
    Pema Pera: Husserl didn't assume anything about self or no self, that's exactly the beauty of it
    Pema Pera: he started focusing on phenomena, qua phenomena, not as signs of something else
    Pema Pera: and while doing that, going deeper and deeper into it
    Pema Pera: he discovered all kind of things that you normally hear in Buddhism or similar traditions
    Pema Pera: he found it himself, as a kind of Leonardo Davinci, who dreamt up helicopters and bicycles by himself . . . .
    Pema Pera: so in many ways I see phenomenology as complementary to Play as Being
    Pema Pera: whereas PaB starts top-down, or at the end, phenomenology starts bottom up, with what is given
    genesis Zhangsun: nice parallel with DaVinci, as from what I understand Davinci was also someone who did not see/or did not live in a time where knowing and scientific knowing were yet separate domains of knowledge
    Pema Pera: and in fact, one of my favorite PaB explorations is the APAPB sentence: appreciate the presence of appearance as a presentation by Being -- that one mixes phenomenology and PaB, in some sense
    Pema Pera: "appearances" here are "phenomena"
    Yakuzza Lethecus is jealous about pema´s knowledge
    Pema Pera: it took a while, Yaku, I was 40 or so when I first heard about Husserl :-)
    Pema Pera: but when I discovered him, I realized that he formed an ideal stepping stone between western and Asian ways of thinking and what is more, ways of experimenting with thinking, ways of truly exploring reality
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ah, in fact i have the habit to think like ,,poor me" he had an humanist education with latin and greek...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s kinda irrational
    Pema Pera: so I spent a whole month doing nothing but reading Husserl, a few thousand pages (in dry German academic writing . . . .)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: because i even think it´s right that we ,,just be" and we should just appreciate life
    Yakuzza Lethecus: jealousy prevents myself from having a good conversation
    Pema Pera: :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but that though just came up to my mind, and i though i just make it a topic :)
    Pema Pera: yes, the truth is simple, Yaku
    Pema Pera: but sometimes we make a large detour to get there
    Pema Pera: APA: appreciate the presence of appearance(s) -- have you ever tried that, as an exercise, Yaku?
    Pema Pera: [7:53] Yakuzza Lethecus: because i even think it´s right that we ,,just be" and we should just appreciate life
    Yakuzza Lethecus: isn´t APA what why try around here ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: what we try :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: lol
    Pema Pera: yes, but it is interesting to do it yourself, for say ten minutes, alone, in a quite place, or while walking outside, and see what happens
    Pema Pera: but yes, of course, it can be a lifetime practice -- here too for sure :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yamaneko project :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i am just googling it and i land on kira again :)
    genesis Zhangsun: Yes I agree, doing APA is great but perhaps in other words, In times like the one you just expressed Yaku- perhaps try to relax the focus on what you have as opposed to don't have and then drop the having and see those things as what you ARE, see yourself as the source of those things. But most important work with relaxing the focus on what you don't have.
    Pema Pera: ah, you read about the yamaneko project, Yaku?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: no just googled it and landed on kira lab :)
    Pema Pera: yes, Gen, keeping an exploration open is the greatest challenge!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: http://lab.kira.org/experiments/APAPB.html
    Pema Pera: there you go, haha, yes, blast from the past, several years ago
    Pema Pera: well before PaB
    Pema Pera: ah, my train is arriving at Princeton Junction, have to bail out
    Pema Pera: great talking with you both!
    Pema Pera: bfn
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye pema
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i am also about to leave, cya around gen :)
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