2009.12.30 13:00 - Applied PaB & Sustainability Session 2

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    The Guardian for this meeting was genesis Zhangsun. The comments are by genesis Zhangsun.

    doug Sosa: pila, still a cloud!
    Pila Mulligan: hi Doug -- I'm using the text only SLite (no graphics, to avoid crashing) -- it seems my internet connection has gone south for the winter
    Pila Mulligan: it seems to stay a cloud
    doug Sosa: ok. how does one do that?
    Pila Mulligan: downloads SLite -- just a small software install
    doug Sosa: fabulous. can they both be open at the same time?
    Pila Mulligan: I think so -- with different avis
    doug Sosa: right. ok.
    doug Sosa: how are you?
    Pila Mulligan: I'm fine thanks ... and you?
    doug Sosa: good. but lots going on.
    doug Sosa: hi zen.
    Zen Arado: Hi Pila, Doug
    Pila Mulligan: new decade about to start
    Pila Mulligan: hi Zen
    doug Sosa: gad yes, this century is ten percent ggone!
    Pila Mulligan: and 1% of the millenia
    Pila Mulligan: what's a mother to do
    doug Sosa: zen, pila is invisible because of technical problems, but he is ehre in text.
    genesis Zhangsun: hi!
    Zen Arado: Hi Genesis
    doug Sosa: hi.
    Pila Mulligan: hi Gen
    Zen Arado: Hi Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Gen, Zen, Doug
    Pila Mulligan: hi Eos
    doug Sosa: hi all.
    doug Sosa: gen, eos, pila is here in text only.
    Eos Amaterasu: Sparkle?
    Pila Mulligan: I'm using the text only SLite (no graphics, to avoid crashing) -- it seems my internet connection has gone south for the winter
    Zen Arado: not in the pixels ?
    Pila Mulligan: no pixels for Pila :)
    Zen Arado: Hi Aubergine
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Aubergine
    doug Sosa: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Aubergine
    Aubergine Mint: hi everyone
    Zen Arado: Hi Zon
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Zon
    Zon Quar: hi all
    genesis Zhangsun: hey Widget!
    Zen Arado: Hi Widget
    doug Sosa: shall we start (as if we hadn't)
    Eos Amaterasu: ~
    genesis Zhangsun: sure, so I thought today we can back up a bit from our last dialogue and talk about what brought us to this issue
    genesis Zhangsun: Applied PaB, sustainability
    doug Sosa: So, here I have a very serious point to make.
    doug Sosa: My view is that things like "the economy" show up without any special effort, as much as do the pillows we are sitting on. In fact..
    doug Sosa: it takes effort to "not see" the economy.
    doug Sosa: So it follows that there is no such things as "applied PaB". It would be a contradiction.
    Widget Whiteberry: I doubt we all see the same thing when we 'see' the economy
    doug Sosa: Last night I gave an example
    Widget Whiteberry: but maybe I miss your point
    Zen Arado: it's an abstract concept
    genesis Zhangsun: if we could hold off on group participation for this first 20 minutes that would be great :)
    Widget Whiteberry nods
    Zen Arado: not a tangible thing
    genesis Zhangsun: this is a continuation of a theme session started two weeks ago
    doug Sosa: as we sit here, we are aware of each other, but we are also mildly awatre of the setting, the marble, the open sapce neat grass like a country club. And
    doug Sosa: this affects us.
    doug Sosa: I believe that the economy is as tangible as the cushions.
    Zen Arado: Hi Qt
    genesis Zhangsun: yes but perhaps Doug you have to direct your attention to it
    Qt Core: hi all
    genesis Zhangsun: or do you suggest we just "see" it without any directing
    doug Sosa: no. to not see it requires deliberatly not paying attention.
    doug Sosa: If I am right.
    doug Sosa: Just letting the mind go here we look at each others postures, we feel the sapce, we notice the light in the distance.
    genesis Zhangsun: sure, but I think we are saying the same thing in a way, there are a multitude of reasons we don't "see" what is important
    doug Sosa: No special effort of attention.
    genesis Zhangsun: but a practice is what brings these things to the forefront
    doug Sosa: Importnat is a judgement that comes in. first is ust the experience.
    genesis Zhangsun: to be "seen"
    Zen Arado: the value of money doesn't exist either
    Zen Arado: it is based on trust
    genesis Zhangsun: Zen if you could hold off on comment for the first 20 minutes that would be great :)
    Zen Arado: not the same?
    Zen Arado: ok sure
    genesis Zhangsun: so Doug perhaps we can back up a bit and talk about how we, each of us came to this theme session
    doug Sosa: go ahead.
    genesis Zhangsun: I am encourgaed by the momentum behind the green movement, but I do feel that like all other "problems" today, the issue is approached from a reductionist and consumption based model
    genesis Zhangsun: this is not to say that the green trade shows, the efforts and funding towards new technology are not a part of the solution
    doug Sosa: I beleive they are not part of the solution.
    genesis Zhangsun: but I feel that the societal reflective aspect of the movement is still lacking
    genesis Zhangsun: I say that Doug, in the spirit that I think we create enough divisiveness already within movements
    genesis Zhangsun: while I am critiquing the current movement I think my perspective is one among many, and varying perspective do not have to compete
    genesis Zhangsun: I think it is about bringing perspectives together
    genesis Zhangsun: even reductionist perspectives
    genesis Zhangsun: such as science and technology as "the answer"
    genesis Zhangsun: welcome Liza
    Liza Deischer: hi all
    Zen Arado: Hi Liza
    doug Sosa: If i sit with someone and try to let go of concepts, i experience their tiredness, apprehension, a sense that there is no where to move, and that climate change is part of that claustrophobia.
    doug Sosa: So how did i get into this theme? As many of you know I have been working with climate issues (and othe global issues maybe worse) for the last year.
    doug Sosa: I have ben impressed with how PaB makes being more open easy, and it has become part of my normal practice.
    doug Sosa: The i found myself using it in groups i was in and wondering, can they be intriduced to some form of the practice?
    doug Sosa: Hence, I am here open to discussing this.
    genesis Zhangsun: I agree Doug, and one thing I would add is that I through PaB I feel I have seen the power of a practice in dealing with problems
    genesis Zhangsun: not in a "fix it" type of way
    genesis Zhangsun: but rather letting all the possible solutions naturally emerge from the engagement with the experience of direction your attention to the issue
    genesis Zhangsun: *directing
    genesis Zhangsun: I think it is this type of openess cultivated through a practice on the grassroots individual problem that holds the key to the issue of sustainability
    doug Sosa: so prefer to avoid directed attention. The breakthrough for me is the realization that climate for example is as touchable as these cushions.
    genesis Zhangsun: not just conferences on the national, global level
    genesis Zhangsun: *level v. problem
    doug Sosa: Do we notice the snow? Do we notice that while it is "snowing" we arenot cold? Does te body/mind puzzle this?
    doug Sosa: Do we not notice the architecture here? Its hints of power and affluence.
    doug Sosa: time to open up to all?
    Pila Mulligan: I appreciate your thoughts Gen and Doug and feel your ideas are sound, but I wonder if they can resolve the conflict between desire-driven actions (e.g., profit motives) and common sense, in business and government policy for example
    genesis Zhangsun: sure Doug
    Zen Arado: Hi Ara
    arabella Ella: Hiya!
    Liza Deischer: hi Ara
    Zon Quar: ara
    doug Sosa: i believe that common sense is also desire driven, Pila.
    genesis Zhangsun: my view is that environmental degradation is a result of disparate impact not just by policy makers but all of us
    genesis Zhangsun: I think we are giving the top down approach a good try but it is deadlocked and I think the only chance is from the bottom up
    doug Sosa: So here would be a godd PaB moment. do we experience environmental degradation? How, what happens to that experience if we drop concepts, etc.
    Zen Arado: We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them. Albert Einstein
    doug Sosa: Maybe by eing more experiential we can find ouselves reframing it.
    genesis Zhangsun: yes Zen nice point
    doug Sosa: For example, artists have convinced me that no scene - none - aare without beauty.
    genesis Zhangsun: I see "progress" or as Pila mentioned "profit oriented" thinking as part of the problem
    doug Sosa: how do we experience that motive?
    Eos Amaterasu: it helps to experience it in the 90 secs
    Eos Amaterasu: 0r 9 secs
    genesis Zhangsun: yes Eos good suggestion
    Eos Amaterasu: even though that time boundary is corny (relative)
    Eos Amaterasu: but it helps
    Eos Amaterasu: let 's experience that in the next 90 sec period
    doug Sosa: Yes, for example, this place in SL is rather special. Being in special life in RL is very special. do these tell us anything about the profit motive?
    doug Sosa: oops, "being in SL in RL is rather pecial"
    Eos Amaterasu: I would phrase it this way: why would you, or do you, want anything else beyond what's here, or what you already have?
    Eos Amaterasu: experience that...
    arabella Ella: Or do we really 'need' all we consume?
    arabella Ella: Do we really 'need' anything else at all?
    genesis Zhangsun: my approach is not to focus on a specific question like "what does this moment tell us about the profit motive" unless focusing on A question assists you to just "stop"
    Eos Amaterasu: experience such 'need'
    genesis Zhangsun: my feeling is the "stopping" is powerful enough if one can really do it
    Eos Amaterasu: by stopping you get less addicted
    doug Sosa: How do we experience that? I notice for example we all sort of crinch when some "jerk" (our perspective) runs through here.
    Eos Amaterasu: (exception for philosophy, Ara :-)
    arabella Ella: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: by stopping we might see that we already have what we need
    genesis Zhangsun: and like you said Ara consider that there is no need to consume more
    Pila Mulligan: bringing contemplative methods to issues such as sustainability and the economy is not really a new idea -- many of the people deeply involved in those issues have well-established practices
    doug Sosa: that sems to me very abstract and packaged. What is the experience? Stop brathing?
    arabella Ella: what drives the 'need' in us to consume more than we really 'need'?
    doug Sosa: so where would you sleep tonight?
    doug Sosa: If we are going to be PaB about these questions we need to open the nut.
    Zen Arado: so we are talking about personal change ?
    genesis Zhangsun: Pila that sounds very interesting could you say more about the tradition of bring contemplative methods to sustainability?
    Pila Mulligan: well, one of the older ones is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspen_Institute
    doug Sosa: Not me. Persoanl is always part of a larger scen.
    arabella Ella: is it possible to 'drop' (reduce in size' our carbon footprint?
    genesis Zhangsun: thanks Pila, if you know of anymore please send them to me please :)
    Zen Arado: the personal is political
    doug Sosa: If many reduced their carbon footprint it would cost many many jobs. We need to be aware of that as a reason people don't do it.
    Zen Arado: seems we can can change ourselves but might not have much success in persuading others?
    Pila Mulligan: Gen, I guess my point was that they still get stuck in the same ruts
    Eos Amaterasu: http://presencing.com http://aliainstitute.org
    genesis Zhangsun: could you say more about that :)
    genesis Zhangsun: thanks Eos!
    Pila Mulligan: the problems are very big :)_
    Pila Mulligan: we have a nice planet, but it cannot sustain all that we are doing with it
    Eos Amaterasu: work on the perceiver and experiencer of the problem
    Pila Mulligan: so how do we solve that problem
    Eos Amaterasu: who also happens to be the main agent of the problem
    Pila Mulligan: if we do not see the problem
    Zen Arado: stop driving cars?
    Zen Arado: and going long journeys by plane?
    Eos Amaterasu: cars are not sold to be driven
    Eos Amaterasu: cars are sold as identity
    arabella Ella: the issue of job losses is relevant ... why is it not the case that working hours are not distributed more evenly rather than making people redundant?
    Eos Amaterasu: we fear loss of identity, and so buy cars
    Zen Arado: Hi Cal
    Zon Quar: prevent chinese ppl getting rich ?
    Liza Deischer: hi Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello all!
    Zon Quar: Cal
    Eos Amaterasu: through PaB, we diminish fear of identity loss
    arabella Ella: Hiya Calvino
    Eos Amaterasu: and the car ads have less power
    doug Sosa: notice how we get away from experience. I want to make it that ese are not issues *unless we experience them*. And I believe they are right here in the pavaiion, or any other 'space" we might be in.
    Zen Arado: so you are going to give up driving?
    genesis Zhangsun: or why not lose the start up mentality of optimizing productivity for a shot while and then burnout
    doug Sosa: Gen, because right now we have no other model that does not disemploy people.
    doug Sosa: So there is no simple answer. It is like pick up sticks.
    Zen Arado: so we need better political systems?
    genesis Zhangsun: exactly, but that is possible precisely because enough of us are passively agreeing to the current system
    arabella Ella: there used to be a model doug but it never materialised ... more leisure time
    genesis Zhangsun: who thinks 15 hours workdays are acceptable?
    Widget Whiteberry: I own a car in order to get to places I need to go. Which* car I drive is wrapped up in my identity
    Eos Amaterasu: exactly
    doug Sosa: but hear me, if we stopped, what would be the alternative, how do we get there, how do we protect peple that would be hurt?
    Pila Mulligan: my guess is that the problems may not be addressed before they impact us more adversely (a la Saul Alinsky, we deal with what bothers us)
    genesis Zhangsun: yes Widget identification is a really key point
    genesis Zhangsun: would you like to say more about that?
    Zen Arado: American society is designed around the car
    Widget Whiteberry: hmm
    Zen Arado: you have to change that
    Widget Whiteberry: when I was shopping for a car to replace the 12 y/o one I was driving, I went from a Corolla to a Camry
    Zen Arado: you would have so much difficulty functioning without the car
    arabella Ella: if we take education ... catch em young ... to be one of the keys ... could it be possible to educate young people to 'drop' the excessive materialist culture we live in?
    Widget Whiteberry: I put in a sun roof as a gift to myself
    doug Sosa: American society is designed around the car. we can't solve this at that level. the PaB approach is to back off a little and actualy let our experience be, and notice it.
    Widget Whiteberry: I justified the bigger car, because I thought I'd have more people in my car
    Widget Whiteberry: sorry, I think I'm on another thread
    Widget Whiteberry: no worries
    Zen Arado: my fault sorry
    Liza Deischer: I think Widget, youre just decribing what a lot of people feel or do
    Liza Deischer: even if we want to change
    genesis Zhangsun: we all have things, cars, etc but it is our identification with those things which keeps us from holding them so tightly
    arabella Ella: UAE society was centered around the car too but last September they introduced a new metro in Dubai and they are using all sorts of incentives to get more people to use it
    Liza Deischer: it seems to be very diffiult to let go
    Widget Whiteberry: from?
    genesis Zhangsun: leaving less room for the space to contemplate how they own us
    genesis Zhangsun: when we believe we own them
    Qt Core: it may seem rude, but.... how much sleep people are willing to lose to go from driving to public transportation to the daily job commute ?
    Widget Whiteberry: rude?
    Calvino Rabeni: shoten working hours then
    Zen Arado: the convenience of the car is what makes them so hard to get ppl to stop using them or even reduce their mileage
    arabella Ella: depends on traffic Qt ... it may be faster using public transport if it is efficient
    arabella Ella: or parking problems
    Qt Core: big if ;-)
    arabella Ella: yes ... BIG 'if'
    genesis Zhangsun: exactly- so the problems are systemic and structural so how do we deal that on the individual level
    doug Sosa: I am going to be a bit severe. The conversation is supposed to be about PaB and sustainability. The first issue is, is their any experiential connction between us an sustainability? I beleive there is, but it takes effort to get out of the way and experience that.
    Widget Whiteberry: when I go to NYC, I prefer the subway. I don't have a viable public transportation option where I live
    Pila Mulligan: ideas spin around like dervishes, but people tend to act based upon what they see as necessary ... when problems begin to affect us personally, we will find it more necessary to act on them ... maybe our contemplation can guide us to be prepared for that need
    Widget Whiteberry: ok, Doug, help me to focus on that
    genesis Zhangsun: :) there is a 90 sec pause
    Pila Mulligan: :) oops
    doug Sosa: I'll try. As we sit here we exprience many things. may we don't talk about much, like the body language and sexuality of the people in the circle. but we very aware of these. In the same way i think
    Zen Arado: some of us are addicted to the car !
    doug Sosa: we experience this space - attractive, special, but what actually? It is not to guess but to actually experience and explore.
    doug Sosa: i think if we do that we will come up to experiences of power, style, architecture, money, prstige, identity - no need to specualate. they are in our experience.
    Widget Whiteberry: and then what, Doug?
    Zen Arado: explore your environment - how it forces you to use a car - than think how to change the environment?
    doug Sosa: no. first slow down.
    Pila Mulligan: Doug, for most of us the connction with sustainability is intellectual at present, not yet experiential
    Calvino Rabeni: RIght, how to make it experiential?
    Eos Amaterasu: slowing down, and dropping, can shift the framing, or at least drop initial probably premature framings
    doug Sosa: right pila, or so it seems. i think we DO experience it, right here in this space.
    Pila Mulligan: wait
    Zen Arado: I gave up driving 6 years ago
    Pila Mulligan: we will probably expereince it more by just waiting
    genesis Zhangsun: slowing down, waiting, stopping, dropping, seeing
    genesis Zhangsun: appreciating :)
    genesis Zhangsun: what we have instead of what we don't have
    genesis Zhangsun: and to really see what it is we have
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Zen Arado: Hi Yaku
    arabella Ella: appreciating the fresh air on a car-free day in europe ... as happens in my country once a year
    Liza Deischer: that is easier done sitting here on a pillow, then to remind ourselves in our dialy lives
    genesis Zhangsun: and then that there is no one there to have anything....that we are the eviroment
    arabella Ella: Hiya Yaku
    genesis Zhangsun: hey Yaku
    Liza Deischer: hi Yaku
    Pila Mulligan: what else can we do?
    genesis Zhangsun: I agree Liza and why a practice I feel is important
    arabella Ella: appreciating the peacefulness and serenity of not using power during a power cut
    genesis Zhangsun: Pila, tell others :)
    genesis Zhangsun: ?
    Eos Amaterasu: societal practices of dropping, such as Ara's "car -free - day"
    genesis Zhangsun: nice Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: turn off your power day
    Qt Core: appreciating your home on weekends instead of HAVING to go out of town every weekend... and going at wor on mondays tired
    Liza Deischer: my experience is that doesn't give us a real experience
    Liza Deischer: really understanding what is going on
    Liza Deischer: what we really need, or don't need
    Liza Deischer: it is al superficial
    Liza Deischer: im afraid
    arabella Ella: appreciating the value of home grown produce like fruit and veg rather than buying stuff which is out of season and comes from half way around the world
    genesis Zhangsun: and what would be less superficial Liza?
    Pila Mulligan: some ideas: drive less, grow vegetables, adjust sleep to natural light cycles, limit your consumption of stuff, decrease your need for more dependence on distant commodities
    doug Sosa: You want unemployed pilots who then seek military jobs?
    Liza Deischer: well I agree it starts with experience
    Eos Amaterasu: you're jumping to conclusions, doug
    Liza Deischer: it starts with becoming closer to oneself
    Zen Arado: and recycle waste of course
    Liza Deischer: but i, myself find it very difficult to look throught my identifications
    arabella Ella: I disagree with you concerning unemployment doug as it had sorted itself out when europe became less based on manual labour for manufacturing for example
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Zen Arado: as we all are now doing
    Liza Deischer: if im in the 'real world'
    doug Sosa: No. I know such people. And I read history about what unemploment does to people. three commericla pilots I know are quitting because their pay has decreased so radically.
    Liza Deischer: Im afraid I dont have a real answer to that
    genesis Zhangsun: yes so its about experience and shared experience- not just experiencing for ourselves but then sharing those experiences
    Liza Deischer: yes, but how?
    Calvino Rabeni: A big part of it is education about being sociable. Consumption is tied to a hunger for connection, to fill a gap in the soul
    arabella Ella: each paradigm shift creates new types of jobs after all
    Eos Amaterasu: the commercial pilot's jet plane was just a geam in the eye when he was born
    Eos Amaterasu: gleam
    Liza Deischer: yes, i think so too ara
    Eos Amaterasu: experience that
    doug Sosa: So my idea is that one way to deal with climate issues is to slow down and experience what is experienceable, and see it things begin to look a little different.
    Widget Whiteberry: hmm, I said I would play hostess from 2-4 and wonder if it's ok for me to be here. Anyone know?
    Liza Deischer: but it is also hard on people to change
    genesis Zhangsun: nice point Calvino, so we consume to connect- can we provide other ways to connect that don't involve consumption
    genesis Zhangsun: I suggest we all move there
    Calvino Rabeni: Break the cycle - technology breeds alienation, alienation breeds consumption
    genesis Zhangsun: to the party in 4 minutes
    Liza Deischer: difficult to except your in the 'middle of a crisis'
    Liza Deischer: and that we realluy need to do something
    arabella Ella: or consumption breeds alienation
    Eos Amaterasu: (speaking of needs, must make dinner - will join u at the party)
    Eos Amaterasu: l8tr
    arabella Ella: bye Eos
    Liza Deischer: bye Eos
    doug Sosa: remind me were is party?
    Zen Arado: bye Eos
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, the education must show other ways to connect, to individuate, to create
    genesis Zhangsun: what about educating the public about the 9 second practice :)
    Calvino Rabeni: the econonomic machine has co-opted basic functions of being human
    Calvino Rabeni: and to take them back, is part of the solution
    arabella Ella: create a paradigm shift in education
    genesis Zhangsun: what if everyone did a 9 second practice?
    genesis Zhangsun: EVERYONE :)
    Widget Whiteberry: Party in front of the Hall, I think
    doug Sosa: thanks.
    Zen Arado: but we are deciding what is best for others - they might not like that
    Calvino Rabeni: what if the 9-second pause was built into every TV commercial break :)
    Widget Whiteberry: Calvino ++
    doug Sosa: i think we needs must stop.
    genesis Zhangsun: I love that Calvino
    Liza Deischer: I agre Cal, it explains why it is so hard to change
    genesis Zhangsun: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Bieup/127/229/103
    genesis Zhangsun: that is the slurl for the party!
    genesis Zhangsun: Please everyone join us and lets keep discussing there!
    Calvino Rabeni: be there and/or be square :)
    genesis Zhangsun: no surely Zen people must choose for themselves :)
    Liza Deischer: well how important is it, when we split up for a party?
    genesis Zhangsun: but perhaps people just don't know that its possible :)
    genesis Zhangsun: Liza :) we don't take ourselves that seriously here...that kind of seriousness might be part of the problem
    Zen Arado: lots of political issues here though
    Liza Deischer: I know what you mean
    arabella Ella: education is key ... for example teaching people to re-cycle waste could easily create new jobs
    genesis Zhangsun: :) see you all there!
    Calvino Rabeni: So, it will work to - look like you're having a very good time - while doing low-consumption activities
    Liza Deischer: and im not very willing myself to stay
    Calvino Rabeni: because people pay attention
    Liza Deischer: byt it is part of being sperficial
    Liza Deischer: you touch it and you go away
    arabella Ella: dropping the influence the media has on our consumption patterns ... or the influence of peer pressure
    Liza Deischer: you touch it and you back off again
    Zen Arado: it feels a bit superficial to me too Liza
    Zen Arado: a bit idealistic
    Calvino Rabeni: Touch what exactly, Liza?
    arabella Ella: not sure what you mean Liza?
    Liza Deischer: we sometimes touch good experiences
    Liza Deischer: or good subjects
    Liza Deischer: but to be really working with it
    Liza Deischer: letting it grow
    Liza Deischer: takes more time sometimes
    arabella Ella: yes
    arabella Ella: and more reflection too perhaps
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Zen Arado: we should keep to one topic longer perhaps
    Liza Deischer: we share something and dropp it
    Zen Arado: and go into it more deeply
    Liza Deischer: or approach it differently
    Pila Mulligan: I think Doug and Gen want to keep this topic going as a theme session
    Pila Mulligan: from time to time
    Calvino Rabeni: That would be good wouldn't it - to stay and go deep sometimes
    Liza Deischer: I need to say, that I dont have a good answer myself :-)
    Liza Deischer: yes I think so
    Calvino Rabeni: Not sure I believe that Liza
    Liza Deischer: and find a way to get to the experiental level
    Liza Deischer: believe what?
    Calvino Rabeni: that you don't have a good answer :)
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Liza Deischer: hmm, I dont know, it is hard to give it form
    Liza Deischer: (Idont know if that is English) :-)
    Liza Deischer: to give it shape
    arabella Ella: I sometimes wonder why Europe seems to be better at environmental and sustainability issues than the US is ... reflects ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Perfect english
    Calvino Rabeni: ara, history and geography
    arabella Ella: more specifically?
    Zen Arado: me too
    arabella Ella: (not that Europe is perfect ... far from it)
    Calvino Rabeni: US never had dense cities in the past, Europe has for a long time
    Zen Arado: true too
    Zen Arado: yes it developed to suit the automobile
    Calvino Rabeni: The uncolonized, rural continent became part of the "Tao" of US
    Yakuzza Lethecus: they have more space to keep it invisible so we see it earlier when we mess things up :)
    Calvino Rabeni: and dependent on first the train, then the auto
    Calvino Rabeni: to connect across space
    arabella Ella: then the plane
    Liza Deischer: building things
    Calvino Rabeni: Mass transit requires density to work well
    Liza Deischer: wanting to develop
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ok, i gonna take a look at the party
    arabella Ella: agree Yaku
    Liza Deischer: bye Yaku
    arabella Ella: (about space ... and about the party too!)
    arabella Ella: cya there!
    arabella Ella: bye
    Zen Arado: bye Yaku
    Aubergine Mint: BYE
    Liza Deischer: bye Ara
    Liza Deischer: bye Aubergine
    Calvino Rabeni: Imagine cars were needed in SL and cost energy
    Calvino Rabeni: no teleporting
    Calvino Rabeni: it would cause a similar problem here
    Calvino Rabeni: to the one in the US
    Calvino Rabeni: too much space
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Liza Deischer: but maybe techonology holds part of the answer
    Zon Quar: c u
    Zen Arado: perhaps SL is part of the solution
    Liza Deischer: soon the most of us will wor from home
    Zen Arado: ppl can stay at home and use an avatar
    Zen Arado: happening even at present
    Qt Core: telecommuting for most jobs//// and park and gym for not going too obese ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: That is a future scenario - work in virtual reality; party with your neighbors
    Qt Core: or just be easily asocial ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: that won't work for the majority
    Liza Deischer: yes QT, i agree, at the moment it is not the answer yet
    Calvino Rabeni: and probably not a balanced model of humanness, just one important part of it
    Liza Deischer: and I wonder what all these identities in so many worlds is doing to us
    Calvino Rabeni: worth watching carefully
    Zen Arado: yes I wonder too
    Calvino Rabeni: there are the naysayers and the yea-sayers about that issue
    Liza Deischer: sometimes i think that for a lot of people, they loose parts of identity instead of gaining new opportunities
    Calvino Rabeni: Lost how where?
    Liza Deischer: you can jump form one identity to another, over and over again
    Liza Deischer: getting even more busy
    Liza Deischer: but what does that mean for our experiences?
    Liza Deischer: get they more scattered all over the place
    Liza Deischer: I wonder
    Zen Arado: I wonder what you gain from being physicall present with friends?
    Zen Arado: apart fro close relationships
    Liza Deischer: can rlationships get close on sl
    Liza Deischer: really close
    Qt Core: a richer comunication channel ?
    Liza Deischer: even if there isnt any physical things going on
    Zen Arado: only thing missing is touch
    Liza Deischer: vibration of the voice
    Liza Deischer: non-verbal expressions
    Qt Core: the sharing of food
    Liza Deischer: I dont say it is aa bad thing
    Zen Arado: well you can use voice even if not in a large group
    Liza Deischer: because I wouldnt be here if I thought so
    Liza Deischer: and i find it very interesting to see what it means to 'be' an avatar
    Liza Deischer: it really showed me new aspects of myself
    Liza Deischer: but I think there are donwsides too
    Calvino Rabeni: people say that, of course it is true, but they take RL and its potentials for granted
    Zen Arado: what are the downsides?
    Liza Deischer: it is different discussing items with you here, then working with people while people are doings things I dont like
    Liza Deischer: picking there nose for instant :-)
    Zen Arado: so it is still unrealistic
    Zen Arado: I don't seem to get close to ppl in SL
    Calvino Rabeni: SL only seems "cool" because of its relative newness
    Liza Deischer: to me its got a good and a bad side
    Calvino Rabeni: which makes people think freshly
    Zen Arado: not as in RL
    Liza Deischer: true
    Calvino Rabeni: but it won't last, because it is relative to the newness of their subjective response to it
    Calvino Rabeni: when it "gets old" then there will be troubles
    Liza Deischer: or it changes in something different
    Zen Arado: you can always make the transition to RL
    Zen Arado: many here have done that
    Zen Arado: retreats
    Calvino Rabeni: One theory - the desire for violent media movies and games, is in a sense due to NOT ENOUGH contact of RL, because of so much technology
    Zen Arado: I met a woman here and know her in RL now
    Calvino Rabeni: If that is true, it is a self-reinforcing cycle
    Calvino Rabeni: This theory will not be popular among those who like and identify with technology and all the newness it brings constantly
    Zen Arado: I think present movies like Transformers are absolute rubbish
    Liza Deischer: I know, but i think it is more what Cal said before Calvino Rabeni: the econonomic machine has co-opted basic functions of being human
    Zen Arado: and I like technology
    Calvino Rabeni: The newness is a counterfeit
    Zen Arado: mass media has really dumbed down
    Calvino Rabeni: Technology is not built to last - it is built to be obsolete, in order to keep the sales cycle going
    Zen Arado: I want to see a reeal story with good acting
    Calvino Rabeni: Thus, "newness" is part of the product to be sold
    Zen Arado: maybe we worship technology too much
    Zen Arado: losing our humanity
    Calvino Rabeni: The system would slow down a lot without that artificial emphasis on newness
    Liza Deischer: yes and we jump from one newness into another newness
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, never satisfied. Always feeling incompletee
    Liza Deischer: not longer realising what we really do
    Zen Arado: and always new models coming out
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes. I like technology, but that is the dark side of it
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: I think I will go to party now - I am running short on tim
    Liza Deischer: ok, bye Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: time, which is same in RL too :)
    Liza Deischer: and im going home
    Zen Arado: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: No virtual time, yet, apparently
    Liza Deischer: havinga headache
    Zen Arado: maybe I will drop in too
    Calvino Rabeni: OK, good talking to you Liza,
    Liza Deischer: same here
    Calvino Rabeni: Zen and QT also
    Calvino Rabeni: See you later
    Liza Deischer: see you
    Zen Arado: thanks
    Qt Core: coming to the party too, bye liza then
    Zen Arado: see you
    Zen Arado: bye

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