2010.03.11 13:00 - unconscious & self

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

    Lia Rikugun: hello archmage
    Archmage Atlantis: Hello Lia

    Woody Guthrie and "Examined Life": "A life unexamined is not worth living"

    Archmage Atlantis: I have been listening to the music of Woody Guthrie durin the Great Depression
    Lia Rikugun: i dont know
    Lia Rikugun: :) have to check
    Archmage Atlantis: The similarities to this time are startlin
    Archmage Atlantis: Also an excellent dvd interviewing modern Philosophers
    Archmage Atlantis: Called Examined Life
    Lia Rikugun: ok
    Lia Rikugun: and is it interesting
    Lia Rikugun: what dd you learn?
    Archmage Atlantis: That philosophy, if one follows the one element of examination, evolves
    Archmage Atlantis: That since the time of Socrates there is a tread
    Lia Rikugun: ok an din which direction ;)
    Archmage Atlantis: One must do the examination to know :)
    Lia Rikugun: oh man, but it took so many years from socrates to now :)
    Lia Rikugun: what exactly is the examination?
    Lia Rikugun: what exactly should you examine?
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, all these modern philosphers have spent 30+ years examining
    Lia Rikugun: wow thats a looong time!
    Archmage Atlantis: My best summary is the quote that opens the DVD, and I apologize, I do not remember if it was from Socrates or Aristotle
    Lia Rikugun: opens the DVD?
    Lia Rikugun: hello eliza hello bleu
    Archmage Atlantis: But the quote is, best I can recall it, "A life unexamined is not worth living"
    Bleu Oleander: hi Lia, Eliza and Arch
    Lia Rikugun: ah yes very nice
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu, Lia, Arch :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Hi Bleu, Eliza
    Lia Rikugun: so this means we should keep thinking about our life and what we are doing
    Lia Rikugun: or at least this is what i understand
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, that is a good summary
    Lia Rikugun: hello calvino
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cal
    Bleu Oleander: hi Cal
    Archmage Atlantis: Hello Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello, everyone
    Lia Rikugun: archmage was talking about philosophers who examined for 30 years
    Lia Rikugun: and more
    Lia Rikugun: I am just starting :(
    Archmage Atlantis: about a dvd actually
    Calvino Rabeni: What eventually became of them ?
    Archmage Atlantis: The Examined Life
    Archmage Atlantis: They are still very much alive
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, there is an educational group nearby with that title... a kind of hip homeschooling group...
    Lia Rikugun: in SL?

    'how' one examines life.. & when is life not worth living?

    Eliza Madrigal: I suppose 'how' one examines life would make it worth living or not...
    Eliza Madrigal shakes head, no, rl :)
    Archmage Atlantis: I recommend the dvd.....I have no words of wisdom :)
    Lia Rikugun: oh ok :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks, Arch
    Archmage Atlantis: In fact I must go
    Archmage Atlantis: Blessings to you all
    Lia Rikugun: ok nice to see you, take care
    Calvino Rabeni: All too soon
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Arch :)
    Calvino Rabeni: BYe
    Bleu Oleander: wonders when "how" one would examine life that would make it not worth living
    Eliza Madrigal: yes...haha... as soon as I typed that I noticed a billion things wrong with the sentence...
    Eliza Madrigal: Maybe I was thinking about decisions and choices we make to find our life in our life along the way... what we attend to
    Bleu Oleander: when is life not worth living?
    Lia Rikugun: if you dont exmine :)
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hm.. I suppose one could say that even when unconscious there is still worth to one's life...
    Eliza Madrigal: one might not see it though
    Lia Rikugun: hello Qt
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Qt :)
    Bleu Oleander: that's true
    Bleu Oleander: hi Qt

    habits of listening to repetive music or watching too much tv: the choice of what we pay attention to

    Eliza Madrigal: practically, I have been noticing habits that I fall into, like listening to bad, repetitive music...
    Eliza Madrigal: that dulls my sense of life, I think... ?
    Eliza Madrigal: something I can do without noticing, in other words
    Lia Rikugun: i get this feeling if i watch too much tv
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Bleu Oleander: i think we do many things that we don't notice
    Lia Rikugun: so i stopped :)
    Bleu Oleander: question might be what we choose to pay attention to
    Eliza Madrigal is working on not turning on the radio when she gets into the car, or at least listening to a cd, etc
    Lia Rikugun: but i think it is always interesting to see how you react to things
    Calvino Rabeni: :) lol Lia
    Eliza Madrigal: Hmmm, true Bleu
    Bleu Oleander: every moment we have choices of what to pay attention to
    Calvino Rabeni: So true
    Bleu Oleander: and how to perceive them
    Lia Rikugun: have we?
    Lia Rikugun: yes how to perceive
    Calvino Rabeni: and every action we take is a "practice"
    Calvino Rabeni: we're always practicing ... something
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, so we learn to notice what enlivens v what dulls...
    Eliza Madrigal nods to Calvino. Yesterday I engaged in making phone calls practice :)
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: or a little trickier - what calms versus what dulls

    what drives us to choose what we do? 'our unconscious can be busy'

    Bleu Oleander: a question would be what drives us to choose what we do
    Calvino Rabeni: :) eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: yes a great question Bleu
    Eliza Madrigal: observations?
    Bleu Oleander: sometimes advertizing, sometimes environment, sometimes where we were born, etc.
    Eliza Madrigal: conditions
    Calvino Rabeni: A constant question of motivation - without getting too prescriptive or moral about it
    Bleu Oleander: i don't think we always have direct access to what drives our attention
    Calvino Rabeni: Except that's always an issue, I suppose
    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps not much of the time Blue.
    Bleu Oleander: our unconscious can be busy, busy, busy!
    Calvino Rabeni: *eu
    Eliza Madrigal nods to Bleu... lots of hidden agendas and reasons and triggers!!
    Bleu Oleander: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Indeed, the unconscious does all the heavy lifting and clerical work
    Eliza Madrigal thinks meditative practice can help us catch some of those things but still things there (possibly dormant) that may not factor
    Calvino Rabeni: Nice to discover the artists on the "staff" of the unconscios
    Eliza Madrigal: or rather may factor :)
    Eliza Madrigal: neat idea Cal
    Bleu Oleander: :)

    trusting the 'staff' of the unconscious but they are tricky..

    Calvino Rabeni: If we trust the "staff" then we can send them messages and look forward to good things happening
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Eliza Madrigal: I've given mine too much liscence I think...
    Bleu Oleander: can't always trust them though
    Eliza Madrigal: they are tricky
    Bleu Oleander: very
    Eliza Madrigal: pranksters
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe they see farther than we do though...
    Bleu Oleander: farther back i think
    Eliza Madrigal: know some things need to be upturned
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, maybe that's how they see farther ;-))
    Bleu Oleander: could be
    Calvino Rabeni: Pranksters and tricksters are frequently to our benefit
    Lia Rikugun: hello arabella
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ara
    arabella Ella: Hiya
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice purple, Ara :)
    Bleu Oleander: hi Ara :)
    arabella Ella: ty Eliza
    Qt Core: hi ara
    Lia Rikugun: we are talking about the staff of the unconscious
    arabella Ella: ciao Qt
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    arabella Ella: Hiya Lia Eliza Bleu Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: :) arabella
    arabella Ella: What a lovely dog you have Bleu very friendly!
    Eliza Madrigal: :) yes
    Bleu Oleander: ty! he's eyeing your cat!
    arabella Ella: he seems to like my kitty too!
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    arabella Ella: i am sure they will become best friends
    Bleu Oleander: i'm sure

    micros on and off

    arabella Ella: anyone hearing a strange noise?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, Cal's voice is on...
    Lia Rikugun: yes i think its calvino
    Qt Core: coming from calvino
    arabella Ella: ah
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    arabella Ella: sneezing Calvino?
    Eliza Madrigal: his pranksters are at work...
    arabella Ella: or gremlins
    Bleu Oleander: ha!
    Calvino Rabeni: how long was that on? No, *I* didn't do it :)
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Lia Rikugun: just a few secs
    Calvino Rabeni: It was Pema :)
    Qt Core: 3/4 times, almost like an electronic drum
    Eliza Madrigal: they were trying to get a message through to us...
    arabella Ella: aliens perhaps?
    arabella Ella: in cyberspace
    Lia Rikugun: haha maybe you need to put it on again!
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes of course - messages !
    arabella Ella: your mike is still on Calvino
    Eliza Madrigal: alien academics
    Eliza Madrigal: 'we're absorbing calvino... keeping him in jersey..."
    Calvino Rabeni: ? still on ? The viewer shows it off
    Eliza Madrigal doesn't hear it anymore
    arabella Ella: still got a green dot near Calvino's name and Lia's too now
    Calvino Rabeni: Gremlins Galore
    Eliza Madrigal: hm
    Lia Rikugun: :) but i dont have a micro put in
    Bleu Oleander: spooky action
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Lia Rikugun: do you hear anything from here?
    arabella Ella: no i dont hear anything i just see the green dots near your names when i see who has sound on
    Eliza Madrigal: See, bleu is right. We are mostly unaware of what influences us...
    Lia Rikugun: ok, i think thats ok :)
    Bleu Oleander: ha!
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    arabella Ella: seems i missed that ... what was it about bleu?
    Bleu Oleander: quantum green dots
    arabella Ella: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: in the end the form a picture maybe
    Eliza Madrigal: *they
    Bleu Oleander: we were talking about the unconscious Ara
    arabella Ella: ah
    arabella Ella: interesting

    listening to messages from the unconscious, who are the messengers?

    Calvino Rabeni: How does one become better at listening to "messages"?
    arabella Ella: through mindfulness perhaps?
    Lia Rikugun: openess
    Lia Rikugun: whatever message means..
    arabella Ella: appreciating the presence of appearance
    arabella Ella: appreciating being
    Lia Rikugun: openess to new experiences
    Lia Rikugun: and going along with them
    Eliza Madrigal nods ... working openly and directly right where one is at perhaps... being willing to be shown
    Calvino Rabeni: The idea of messages, is that there are messengers
    Calvino Rabeni: and that suggests an animistic universe
    Lia Rikugun: so people at the other end!
    Calvino Rabeni: Or spirits, or entities, or dieties, or vague intelligences, or Gaia, or ...
    arabella Ella: not necessarily people at the other end
    Calvino Rabeni: Non-human intelligence
    Eliza Madrigal: Considering that we are aware of so little of ourselves, much less people here where we are/alive today... I'd guess yes there is lots of conversation going on we aren't aware of
    arabella Ella: simply ... intelligence
    arabella Ella: reminds me of Nagel ... what is it like to be a bat with sonar?
    arabella Ella: or a dolphin
    Eliza Madrigal nods... yes sending out signals and reading the response

    the human senses and the 'sixth sense'

    arabella Ella: will humans ever develop other senses?
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure
    Eliza Madrigal: I think that's part of what we do here?
    Calvino Rabeni: It seems we have many senses
    Lia Rikugun: or we have them already
    Bleu Oleander: we use tech now to improve upon our senses, so maybe we're directing our own evolution of our sensory percetion?
    Calvino Rabeni: That makes sense
    Eliza Madrigal: cultivating lives of awareness... yes a tech being part of that for sure
    Calvino Rabeni: but it's hard to analyze or understand
    arabella Ella: or there may be other senses which we group together and simply call sixth sense ... which is inutitive?
    Eliza Madrigal: interesting idea Ara
    arabella Ella: my view is that intuition is based on some sort of implicit knowledge or experience
    arabella Ella: (not conscious)
    Bleu Oleander: from within our past experiences?
    arabella Ella: yes possibly ... but which is no longer consciously expressed
    Eliza Madrigal: eos has talked a little about organs of perception, which I think is an interesting angle too... that ear-hearing, eye-seeing... so other kinds of capacities perhaps being worked with to preceive other ways of seeing/knowing, etc>?
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, deep memory Ara?
    arabella Ella: what is interesting is that although the sense organs mediate experience and knowledge, yet we give ... and make ... meaning
    Calvino Rabeni: Take Twitter for example - you can broadcast a "message" of only 140 characters - at first intuition might say it would be trivial and not too interesting to do that - but in practice, unexpected things occur
    arabella Ella: @Eliza ... I would prefer to call it unconscious
    Eliza Madrigal nods to both... we fill in a lot

    "culture, education, etc influence the way we interpret our perceptions" and what the self or the I is

    arabella Ella: and besides filling in I guess our culture, education, etc influence the way we interpret our perceptions a great deal
    Bleu Oleander: that's where we started the conversation today Ara
    Eliza Madrigal: :)))
    arabella Ella: but ... that is also something we can learn to move away from
    Lia Rikugun: this is what i experiences when i lived in japan ara
    arabella Ella: yes Lia I can imagine
    Bleu Oleander: yes, hard job though
    Lia Rikugun: people react differently and the i started thinking about why i do things the way i do
    Eliza Madrigal: we learn to see the conditioning ... examine :)
    Calvino Rabeni: It's good to recognize, it varies a lot from person to person, and for one person, from time to time - it being what is conscious and what is active, or not
    Eliza Madrigal: So it was a mirror for you Lia?
    Lia Rikugun: in the end there was no I
    Lia Rikugun: nothing is really a 'me'
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    arabella Ella: well my experience of some Asian countries is that they look at Westerners as exotic flowers :)
    arabella Ella: just as we sometimes look at people who are very different from the norm
    Lia Rikugun: (I still need to think about the mirror eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Bleu Oleander: interesting interview
    Lia Rikugun: for me it was good to try to understand the other perspective
    Bleu Oleander: http://docartemis.com/brainsciencepodcast/2010/03/bsp67-metzinger/
    Bleu Oleander: about the self
    Lia Rikugun: and the lern a lot about who I am
    Lia Rikugun: and why I am I
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, have heard about this bleu. Thanks for the link
    Calvino Rabeni: Is that about the author of "being no one"?
    Bleu Oleander: I read the book and this interview is pretty good
    Bleu Oleander: yes, Cal
    Eliza Madrigal: "why I am I"... wow Lia
    Calvino Rabeni: The book "the ego tunnel" is the EZ version of the theory
    Bleu Oleander: yes
    arabella Ella: the EZ?
    Lia Rikugun: easy?
    Bleu Oleander: there's a more scholarly book by him as well
    Calvino Rabeni: easy - for the public rather than the neurophilosopher
    Bleu Oleander: did you read it Cal?
    Eliza Madrigal: taking a minute to examine components that make up everything and our experience of everything... can't help but throw 'self' into question perhaps
    Calvino Rabeni: There's a short version of the book, online at a journal called Psyche. I read that and various reviews.
    Lia Rikugun: yes eliza

    the self is a process, not a thing versus the self does not exist

    Calvino Rabeni: However, for me all it says is "self is a process, not a Thing"
    Calvino Rabeni: Which seems a lot different than saying "it doesn't exist"
    Calvino Rabeni: So my question is why to put it that way?
    Bleu Oleander: yes, that's right Cal
    Eliza Madrigal: well surely self as distinct and independent/solid seems questionable...
    Calvino Rabeni: Agreed, he makes a case for "it is not what you think it is"
    arabella Ella: what is the self really?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes @eliza, but it's no surprise or breakthrough, really
    Eliza Madrigal wonders if the workshop takes place today?
    arabella Ella: which workshop Eliza?
    Calvino Rabeni: The "thing" idea of self seems kind of a straw man to use in an argument
    Eliza Madrigal thinks it is when one sees it for themselves... not as an idea but hm.. something that affects experience
    Eliza Madrigal: and also laughs at using the line'for themselves' haha
    Bleu Oleander: ha!
    Lia Rikugun: somehow the self is a series of action, reaction with emotions, so situation, or experiences for me
    Eliza Madrigal: Ara, cafh? that took place last week..
    Calvino Rabeni: And yet, the idea of that book, is that the self is something we see through, like a telescope, but cannot actually see it at work
    Eliza Madrigal: not sure if its a weekly workshop
    Lia Rikugun: oh yes cafh was great
    Lia Rikugun: i think it is
    arabella Ella: ah yes ty Eliza
    Qt Core: it is weekly if i'm not wrong
    Lia Rikugun: i wont be able to go
    Lia Rikugun: :( bed time soon
    arabella Ella: mine too :(
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, think I'll go check. :( Lia, Ara
    Calvino Rabeni: It must be starting now then? I will go also
    Lia Rikugun: all so sad :)
    Eliza Madrigal: and self as a telescope makes sense Cal
    Bleu Oleander: bye all
    Eliza Madrigal: or as like...
    arabella Ella: lovely dress Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: haha
    arabella Ella: so pretty
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks all, off to Kira it is
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye :)
    Lia Rikugun: have fun
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bleu, Qt, Ara, Lia. Thanks, Ara!
    arabella Ella: bye Calvino Eliza Bleu
    Qt Core: bye all, have fun
    arabella Ella: bye Qt
    arabella Ella: I must go too nite Lia Qt
    Lia Rikugun: me too
    Lia Rikugun: good night
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