2020.09.17 07:00 - Jesus Depicted as White in Christian Imagery

The Guardian for this meeting was Adams Rubble. The comments are by Adams Rubble.

Report on Air Quality

Riddle Sideways: Howdee Adams
Riddle Sideways: sorry to get late, but there was a good song playing and was listening
Adams Rubble: Good morning Riddle :)
Adams Rubble: You were not late
Adams Rubble: How is the air there?
Adams Rubble: It has gotten hazy here from all the western fires
Riddle Sideways: that is debatable.
Riddle Sideways: the sky is blue and hard to smell any smoke
Riddle Sideways: those with better noses say it is still smokey
Adams Rubble: or worse noses :)
Riddle Sideways: that AirNow website jumps all over with Red and then yellow numbers
Adams Rubble: I've been following the AirNow for Seattle
Riddle Sideways: had left a pile of deck seat cushions out overnight and they had much ash on them in morning
Adams Rubble: oh my
Riddle Sideways: most of the fires here are contained and almost out
Adams Rubble: that's good. I hope there are no more
Riddle Sideways: well the Big Sur one is still burning
Riddle Sideways: most fires are now up in Oregon
Adams Rubble: yes
Riddle Sideways: got a note from a friend that he lost his house and did anybody have photos of his guitars (for insurance proof)
Adams Rubble: :(
Riddle Sideways: "May you live in Exciting Times"
Adams Rubble: we do live ine xciting times
Riddle Sideways: could do with a lot less excitement
Adams Rubble crosses fingers for after November 3
--BELL--
Riddle Sideways: yes!!
Adams Rubble: it is coming fast
Riddle Sideways: a friend said they saw one of those "Bye Don 2020" sign in RL
Riddle Sideways: the election board called to check whether I was going to be a poll worker this year. Said yes
Adams Rubble: that's brave of you ")
Riddle Sideways: they said there has been much planning and training will be completely different

Riddle Asks a Question

Riddle Sideways: Now. on to today's topic
Adams Rubble waits for it
Riddle Sideways: as mentioned in private IM
Riddle Sideways: was very curious of how Jesus got to be a white european guy
Riddle Sideways: in art
Riddle Sideways: did some studies
Riddle Sideways: but need to talk with an Art Historian religious person
Riddle Sideways: and friend ㋡
Riddle Sideways: a good over view is in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depiction_of_Jesus
Adams Rubble: maybe you could summarize
Riddle Sideways: then some confusion in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_appearance_of_Jesus
Riddle Sideways: the second one starts with there being no Biblical description of Jesus
Adams Rubble: yes
Riddle Sideways: that early letters speak of a short person
Riddle Sideways: possibly deformed
Riddle Sideways: and short hair
Adams Rubble: early letters?
Riddle Sideways: in the Literary traditions section 3rd paragraph
Riddle Sideways: that was up to the 3rd century
Adams Rubble: Ha, he is described as an anti-Christian writer :)
Riddle Sideways: then somewhere in 6th-9th or 13th century he is beautiful
Riddle Sideways: wait. the first article says the first white picture shows up in 3rd century, but was not common until the 6th
Adams Rubble: We know that jesus was Jewish and was very much in the Rabbinical tradition
--BELL--
Riddle Sideways: maybe wrongly, but still belive wikipedia to be a trusted source
Riddle Sideways: that peer reviewed and edited ascept
Riddle Sideways: aspect
Adams Rubble: In some areas Wikipedia is but then there is religion and policitics :)
Adams Rubble: Most of the Christian art we think of was done by the Europeans who were white
Adams Rubble: This has become an issue in US because some think that ewas proff that Jesus was white
Adams Rubble: May I ask why this issue is important to you?
Riddle Sideways: each artist turned the picture toward what was most acceptable in their country
Riddle Sideways: With the powerful themes of Black Lives Matter getting traction
Riddle Sideways: started thinking; how did Jesus get White
Riddle Sideways: should be Brown
Riddle Sideways: The Religious (radicals??) carry Jesus into their rightness
Adams Rubble: W.E. DeBois said that Sunday morning was the most segregated time in US
Riddle Sideways: oh and watching a TV series about a Black church got the thinking going too
Riddle Sideways: been doing the cooking at a black Baptist church and was going to ask the reverend there
Adams Rubble: ahhh
Adams Rubble: that's right, you said that
Riddle Sideways: but, before being able to get his attention. looked around the building
Riddle Sideways: and found NO pictures
Riddle Sideways: none of Jesus
Riddle Sideways: or any other images
Adams Rubble: The slave owners used Chrsitianity to justify slavery
Adams Rubble: White ministers took part in lynchings
Adams Rubble: other participants sometimes were seen wearing cross-jewelry around their necks
Riddle Sideways: yesterday asked my Lutheran friend and found that they have no images of Jesus up on walls either
Adams Rubble: Black Christiainity emphaized the suffering of Christ and Moses leading the Jews from Egypt
Adams Rubble: Lutherans are more mixed
--BELL--
Adams Rubble: Unlike Calvinists the Lutherans never were iconoclasts
Adams Rubble: Many Catholic churches in Germany and Scandinavia simply became Lutheran
Adams Rubble: BUT
Adams Rubble: When Louis XIV invaded and laid waste to the Rhine regions he made all the Christians worship in the same church because there were so few Catholic churches
Adams Rubble: so when those Germans came to US, especially Pennsylvania in the early eighteenth century
Adams Rubble: the Lutherans and Calvinists shared chruches
Adams Rubble: there were few ministers of either sect and the Lutherans and German Reformed (Calvinists) were comfortable worshipping with each other
Adams Rubble: so those churches were plain and the services were simple
Adams Rubble: but later other people from other parts of Germany came and those churches were rich in art especially in big cities like Philadelphia
Adams Rubble: the Scandinavians also had figurative art in their Lutheran churches

Adams Rubble: Less than in Catholic Churches
Adams Rubble: that's the short answer on the Lutherans :)
Riddle Sideways: not so much in the Mennonites, Amish and Quakers
Adams Rubble: right
Adams Rubble: very plain churches and meeting houses for those groups
Riddle Sideways: very confusing the more read and researched
Adams Rubble: I can see your confusion
Riddle Sideways: got more into as a simple question started getting so hard
Riddle Sideways: to understand
Adams Rubble: well let's try to make it simpler
Adams Rubble: the historical Jesus is elusive at best
Adams Rubble: none of the Romans made a bust of him :)
Riddle Sideways: did not sit still for a portrait
Adams Rubble: very soon after his death people told conflicting stories about him
Adams Rubble: and they were the ones who liked him :)
Riddle Sideways: right
Adams Rubble: so other than he was Jewish, we know nothing about his appearance
Adams Rubble: so no need to argue about that
Adams Rubble: There are various art traditions
Adams Rubble: most done by cultures that were predominantly white
Adams Rubble: Racists have seized on that
Adams Rubble: but they are blind
Adams Rubble: If Jesus is the son of God then he is all things to all people
Adams Rubble: it does not matter what he looks like
Riddle Sideways: right
Adams Rubble: not sure I am succeeding in making it a simpler question because it has no importance whatsoever to me :)
Riddle Sideways: however, you summarized it very well
Adams Rubble: Buddha is represented as the Asian culture that makes the image
Adams Rubble: Chinese Buddhas look Chinese
Adams Rubble: Jappanese Buddhas look Japanese, etc etc
Adams Rubble: The Buddhas that were created in Bactria look like Greek Gods
Riddle Sideways: and no problems
Adams Rubble: I wouldn't go that far :)
--BELL--
Adams Rubble: human beings create conflicts
Riddle Sideways: Right
Riddle Sideways: ah the human condition
Adams Rubble: If you end up asking the Black minister about the images you might start an interesting dialogue especially if you are a mind that Jesus should be all things to all people, especially the little children :)
Adams Rubble: there is a song
Adams Rubble: Jesus Loves the Little Children
Adams Rubble: All the Children of the World
Adams Rubble: Red and yellow Black and White
Adams Rubble: They are precious in his siight
Adams Rubble: Jeus Loves the Little Children of the World
Adams Rubble: I was taught that as a child
Riddle Sideways: did not have songs like that
Riddle Sideways: wonder how/what would have grown into if had that upbringing
Riddle Sideways: These humans wonder so much
Riddle Sideways: Thank you so much for this discussion
Adams Rubble: yes, our minds are always wandering
Riddle Sideways: maybe can stop thinking about it now
Adams Rubble: that would be great
Riddle Sideways: wipes hands. Done. Next
Riddle Sideways: Tis a Joy to be simple
Riddle Sideways: minded
Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble: I think being with God means having a mind clear of monkey thoughts
Riddle Sideways: a good one
Riddle Sideways: the Learner with the Teacher
Adams Rubble: the Buddhists would agree I think
Riddle Sideways: was reading about
Adams Rubble: Ohh and Shana Tov
Adams Rubble: did I say that right?
Riddle Sideways: yes. La Shana Tov
Riddle Sideways: Saturday
Adams Rubble nods
Riddle Sideways: remote services. not have to get suited up
Adams Rubble: I hope you and your family find all the peace you can
Riddle Sideways: but better anyway. because have to stand up
Riddle Sideways: thank you.
--BELL--
Riddle Sideways: may the World find that peace, happiness and health
Adams Rubble: as Leonard Cohen said
Adams Rubble: Democracy s coming to the USA
Riddle Sideways: need to get ready. somebody might be coming over.
Adams Rubble: OK, I must get to work
Riddle Sideways: thank you for a good session
Adams Rubble: thank you for being here and the topic
Adams Rubble has an ear worm
Adams Rubble: Jesus Loves the Little Children
Adams Rubble: :)
Riddle Sideways: ㋡
Adams Rubble: bye for now