2020.09.30 13:00 - The Hedgehog's Dilemma

This log was posted by Eliza Madrigal.
 

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Riddle :)
Riddle Sideways: Hi Eliza ㋡
Riddle Sideways: still need to shower off in your rainbird ㋡
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks for helping sort out the wiki

--BELL--

Riddle Sideways: maybe. not done yet
Eliza Madrigal: Well, sure, but I have faith :)
Bleu Oleander: 's current display-name is "Bleu".
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu :)
Bleu Oleander: hi Eliza, Riddle :)
Riddle Sideways: Hi Bleu
Riddle Sideways: long chat lag today
Eliza Madrigal: It took a long time for me to sign in... about 5 minutes after I opened the interface
Eliza Madrigal: but I thought due to storms here
Bleu Oleander: are you talking about sl?
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Riddle Sideways: hmmm, wonder if SL is now in the Cloud means it gets storms
Bleu Oleander: seems a bit slow for me today

Eliza Madrigal: How are projects going?
Riddle Sideways looks down at feet and mumbles
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: I haven't heard about projects since last week, for you both? how are they going?
Eliza Madrigal: I've had a terrible week, back issues and panic attacks... have been trying to channel attention into writing for the project but choppy so far
Bleu Oleander: sorry to hear
Eliza Madrigal: thanks

Bleu Oleander: after debate last night I suspect many are having panic attacks :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) I skipped the debate because I couldn't risk it
Eliza Madrigal: I've seen enough to know who I'm voting for, safe to say
Riddle Sideways: good thing. don't watch it
Bleu Oleander: yes me too
Eliza Madrigal: In general I've been trying to do less keeping up, and more gentle activism
["In a gentle way, you can shake the world." Gandhi] (added during posting)
Riddle Sideways: had thought the debate might be entertainment, but NOOOOOO
Riddle Sideways: good Eliza
Bleu Oleander: it was indeed confirmation for anyone still undecided
Bleu Oleander: hi Tura
Qt Core: Hi all!
Bleu Oleander: hi Qt
Eliza Madrigal: thanks for watching it for us :) I hope you're right
Riddle Sideways: Hi Tura and QT
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Tura, Qt :)
Tura Brezoianu: hi all
Riddle Sideways: it was a panic attack And exhausting.
Riddle Sideways: was very tired after watching that "debate"
Bleu Oleander: so uncivilized
Eliza Madrigal: that's what I gathered... normally there is a lot of energy, but I had the sense everyone just felt sad and "ugh"
Eliza Madrigal: no issues on the table
Bleu Oleander: very ugly but not surprising
Tura Brezoianu: and everyone thinks their side "won"
Eliza Madrigal sighs
Riddle Sideways: so sad that the rest of the world saw that
Agatha Macbeth: Evening all
Tura Brezoianu: hi Agatha
Bleu Oleander: hey Aggers
Riddle Sideways: Hey Aggers
Eliza Madrigal: I would like to have a president who didn't amplify this side/that side, but tried to help bring us together
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Agatha :)
Qt Core: Hi Agatha
Qt Core: that's impossible, even in the best of cases, one should have a program and can't be the same of another
Eliza Madrigal: Well, there's process, and good faith case-making
Eliza Madrigal: but not now
Tura Brezoianu: I heard a couple of excerpts on BBC radio, and I don't think the reporting of it mentioned any of the actual questions or what their answers were.
Bleu Oleander: I see they're going to make new rules for the next set of debates
Eliza Madrigal: Isn't that odd, Tura? That's what I was looking for too
Bleu Oleander: NPR has done pretty good summaries
Tura Brezoianu: It's like everyone knows it doesn't matter.
Riddle Sideways: most questions did not quite get completely stated before interrupted
Eliza Madrigal: :(
Riddle Sideways: *completed
Qt Core: i have two simple solution, directional mics, and a switch button on the host table, when one is speaking the other mic is off
Agatha Macbeth: Doesn't NPR do the science friday broadcasts?
Bleu Oleander: yes
Agatha Macbeth: Thought so
Riddle Sideways: thought that the moderator needs mic kill switches too

--BELL--

Riddle Sideways: however, one of the people is not good at staying the distance

Agatha Macbeth: Is the wiki still postable?
Bleu Oleander: its a bit difficult atm
Eliza Madrigal: I'll try again, but we'll see
Bleu Oleander: firefox kinda works
Agatha Macbeth: I heard there were issuues
Riddle Sideways: yes
Qt Core: i may need to read some about that as today i've only heard about the debate by quite a leftist radio ;-)
Bleu Oleander: safari doesn't
Bleu Oleander: seems newer browsers don't work with the older wiki
Agatha Macbeth: Showing its age
Riddle Sideways: chat lag = Yes to all those statements
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: ha!
Agatha Macbeth: Here comes Wollie

Bleu Oleander: anyone have any thoughts on our photography project?
Riddle Sideways: "showing Age"? who? none of us!
Eliza Madrigal feels fragile lately, age partly to blame I'm sure :)
Agatha Macbeth: Here she is!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol :)
Wol Euler: evenng all!
Riddle Sideways: Hey Wol
Bleu Oleander: hi Wol :)
Qt Core: hi Wol
Eliza Madrigal: I've been musing with the masks topic though, asking questions like, "When do our masks fall, and what might we see?"
Eliza Madrigal: glimpses of reality
Wol Euler: ourselves in the mirror, for the first time?
Bleu Oleander: to some extent we are always wearing a mask
Bleu Oleander: its more a question of which one (s)
Qt Core: the one we want or the one we need
Agatha Macbeth: 'If you want to get into it you've got to get out of it'
Bleu Oleander: or the one we think others need to see
Eliza Madrigal: we may let them slip more during transitions... takes a bit of effort to keep them steady
Agatha Macbeth: Just look at Dr Jekyll
Riddle Sideways: yes

Bleu Oleander: have you experienced a time or moment where you feel you are not wearing any kind of mask?
Agatha Macbeth: When I'm asleep
Bleu Oleander: haha
Eliza Madrigal: having my children :)
Bleu Oleander: the mask of sleep
Wol Euler grins.
Agatha Macbeth: Erk

Eliza Madrigal: Related, have you ever had a moment of surprise when you thought your mask was up but someone responded in a deeper way or to a different you?
Bleu Oleander: yes!
Riddle Sideways: yes
Wol Euler: yes
Agatha Macbeth: Forgot yourself as they say
Qt Core: the moment i come out from deep concentration, it being work related or book related, where you discover you were too engrossed to keep the mask up
Eliza Madrigal: yes, like that phrase
Eliza Madrigal nodding Qt
Eliza Madrigal: maybe part of what happens in transitions is we're crafting our next mask
Bleu Oleander: that's probably true
Riddle Sideways: ooooo, good one, Elia
Qt Core: an sometimes when a song break, more then the mask the shields
Bleu Oleander: what transitions do you have in mind?
Eliza Madrigal: any really... like Qt's example of going from deep concentration to the next thing even
Eliza Madrigal: waking in the morning, etc.
Eliza Madrigal: or life transitions, aging
Bleu Oleander: every day tweeking
Eliza Madrigal nods
Tura Brezoianu: putting on one's public face when going out, and one's private face when back at home
Qt Core: whatever make you spend otherwise the energy you spend to keep the mask up
Bleu Oleander: every day is a transition and includes many micro transitions probably
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: for me anxiety comes at night lately, so I'm up and 'on' all day but at night feel more defenseless
Eliza Madrigal: am caught off guard

Qt Core: (for some years for me having to translate to/from english was one of those activity, i felt i was "truer", less self-censored in english
Bleu Oleander: interesting Qt
Eliza Madrigal: how interesting
Wol Euler nods.
Eliza Madrigal: I felt that way about SL for a long time, come to think of it :)

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: language is a kind of mask
Riddle Sideways: in PaB at least
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Qt Core: for many years, while chatting in english i could not even have music or worse talk radio on that's how much my brain was taken
Wol Euler: I know that feeling :D
Qt Core: so, the censor filter energy was diverted to the universal translator too ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: immersed
Eliza Madrigal: as though you need a different world to know a different side of yourself
Eliza Madrigal: language cutting right through
Qt Core: not really something different, something that got out, evading the thought-guards
Eliza Madrigal considers

Tura Brezoianu: I remember that when my mother answered the phone (before the days of mobiles that show you who's calling), she would speak in her polite, "public" voice, then when it turned out to be her sister, instantly switch to her "familiar" voice.
Tura Brezoianu: I'm not sure she even knew she did that
Riddle Sideways: ha, heard many do that
Agatha Macbeth nods
Eliza Madrigal: :) love that, makes perfect sense
Qt Core: like when with your own parent you don't use all the swearing you do at work/school or with friends ? ;-)
Wol Euler: ha yes
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: maybe hard to keep up masks with people who may have known us all our lives anyway
Eliza Madrigal: I have a 'sales' voice
Wol Euler: many people have "talking to animals" and "talking to children" voices
Eliza Madrigal: I'm fully aware I'm doing it, and it isn't that it isn't me, but it is highschool me
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, true
Eliza Madrigal: The sales voice started showing up when I realized people wanted me to sell them things... when I realized it was a whole mood they come into the store for
Eliza Madrigal: acting gig ;-)

Riddle Sideways: when talking on phone to sister. We try to nail each other if a 'Dad Phrase' or 'Mom Phrase" is said
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
Bleu Oleander: funny!
Tura Brezoianu: :)
Riddle Sideways: oh and then the Gig voice
Eliza Madrigal: creating a virtual world in FL
Bleu Oleander: we have text voices as well
Eliza Madrigal: true
Riddle Sideways: wha! who?
Bleu Oleander: I feel I "know" all your voices :)
Riddle Sideways: ㋡
Tura Brezoianu: Sometimes I think, "would Tura say this?"
Bleu Oleander: in many ways its not surprising to hear someone after only knowing them in text
Wol Euler: yes
Riddle Sideways: except when Bleu used "voice" and it was not the Bleu voice known
Wol Euler: I felt that meeting SL people in RL
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: endlessly fascinating
Eliza Madrigal: but I guess it is like reading a favorite author
Eliza Madrigal: you 'know' how they pause, etc
Bleu Oleander: yes
Wol Euler nods.
Bleu Oleander: some audio books are better than others
Eliza Madrigal: :)

--BELL--

Qt Core: again about translation, here we always had all movies / tv series dubbed... some big shock i had when hearing the original voices!
Wol Euler: some translations are better than others. Translators have a "voice" too
Qt Core: funniest part, the originals seemed the wrong ones!
Bleu Oleander: yep
Wol Euler: hheh
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Eliza Madrigal: "You don't sound like yourself"
Riddle Sideways: right
Riddle Sideways: do not listen to recordings
Wol Euler smiles.
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, goodness, must be weird for musicians
Agatha Macbeth: Musicians are pretty weird anyway
Riddle Sideways: it is. Riddle has a beautiful singing voice
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Riddle Sideways: that the recording screw up
Wol Euler: ha
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Bleu Oleander: haha
Qt Core: obsolutely weirded out the couple times i heard my voice in past decades

Riddle Sideways: all good stuff, but not helping with mask photo project
Tura Brezoianu: Is it to be done with photographs, or pictures made anyhow?
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Bleu Oleander: a lot of good stuff for mask projects!
Bleu Oleander: yes photos
Qt Core: this morninthis morning i thought about taking a pic of my mask (classic surgical one) when resting on my work desk and title it "The warrior rest"
Eliza Madrigal: nice that you're sparking ideas
Qt Core: i usuallu put it in another place but had it all morning in my field of view
Riddle Sideways: mask is getting so 'normal', until tasting the tomato sauce
Wol Euler: heheheh
Wol Euler: I have nearly done that with coffee
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Wol Euler: realized just in time
Riddle Sideways: did not realize in time
Wol Euler: messy :)
Agatha Macbeth: Not Lionel
Qt Core: i keep getting (and putting on) the mask instead of the headset and vice-versa at work (that's why this morning i tried to put the mask on the other side of the desk
Eliza Madrigal: Seems almost odd to imagine a time ahead not having to wear it
Qt Core: put on the mask, click on the ringing phone line and asking myself while no one respond
Agatha Macbeth: Stand and deliver

Agatha Macbeth: hello K :)
Wol Euler: hello korel
Korel Laloix: Osiyo all
Qt Core: Hi Korel
Riddle Sideways: Hi Kor
Korel Laloix: Good to see you all.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Kori!
Agatha Macbeth: Likewise
Bleu Oleander: hi Kori :)
Eliza Madrigal: You arrived at the boundary

--BELL--

Korel Laloix: The boundary?
Eliza Madrigal: we're talking about "masks" for the upcoming project, but related, languages etc
Eliza Madrigal: toward endish of session :(
Eliza Madrigal: How are you doing?
Korel Laloix: Busy... still maintaining a lifestyle beyond my control... laughs
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Agatha Macbeth: Sounds like you!
Wol Euler: control is even more of an illusion these days than it always was

Korel Laloix: Mask is a word I really still can't wrap my arms around.
Korel Laloix: Too many shades of meaning to it.
Bleu Oleander: that makes for many interpretations!
Korel Laloix: And abuses.
Korel Laloix: But also a lot of art.
Bleu Oleander: it is art though ... so can have fun with it
Bleu Oleander: can be interpreted abstractly or literally ... artist's choice
Riddle Sideways: too many choices
Eliza Madrigal: we have one month to keep coming at it
Korel Laloix: Not enough choices... smiles...
Bleu Oleander: must get going friends ... take care
Korel Laloix: I love the various roles I have... maybe those are masks? Student, wife, mother, sister, bitch, lol...

Korel Laloix: Ciao bella
Wol Euler: bye bleu
Agatha Macbeth: Bysie bye Bleu
Bleu Oleander: bye y'all
Riddle Sideways: by by Bleu
Tura Brezoianu: bye BLue
Qt Core: bye Blue
Eliza Madrigal waves

Eliza Madrigal: It seems fair to say that each role has a unique presentation
Wol Euler nods.
Korel Laloix: I guess the more interesting questions to me are....
Korel Laloix: How do I respond to the masks of others?
Eliza Madrigal: the people we interact with may have a primary presentation/portal they enter the rest through
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, good question
Korel Laloix: And how do my masks effect my behavior... in ways I don't realize.
Eliza Madrigal: Is that like, when to be polite, or when to call bs?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Korel Laloix: I can remember a time in my life when all I had was a mask.
Riddle Sideways: when is somebody selling ya something ㋡
Korel Laloix: Had no idea of who I was or what I was capable of.
Qt Core: first thing to settle is understanding that (in most case but not always) other's mask aren't for tricking us but to defend themselves
Korel Laloix: When are you selling yourself something?
Qt Core: (as we do too)
Eliza Madrigal: hmmm, nods
Eliza Madrigal: porcupine's dilemma
Wol Euler: oh what a beautiful phrase
Korel Laloix: Porcupines dilemma?
Agatha Macbeth: Sounds like Schopenhauer
Eliza Madrigal: I heard it somewhere... but it seems to fit
Eliza Madrigal: defenses meeting defenses but (inside) begging "please touch me"
Korel Laloix: Oh Ok...
Eliza Madrigal: something like that
Korel Laloix: Makes sense
Eliza Madrigal: I wonder, Agatha, not sure where I heard it first
Tura Brezoianu: I guess porcupines solve it, or there wouldn't be any baby porcupines
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Agatha Macbeth: I seem to remember it was hedgehogs in his case
Korel Laloix: Well, actually... lol.. the mating rituals of porcupines are a bit.... odd...
Eliza Madrigal: compatible underbellies
Eliza Madrigal: Ah! You're right Agatha
Agatha Macbeth: Makes a change

The hedgehog's dilemma, or sometimes the porcupine dilemma, is a metaphor about the challenges of human intimacy. It describes a situation in which a group of hedgehogs seek to move close to one another to share heat during cold weather. They must remain apart, however, as they cannot avoid hurting one another with their sharp spines. Though they all share the intention of a close reciprocal relationship, this may not occur, for reasons they cannot avoid. [wikipedia]

Korel Laloix: So, do you think it better to understand masks or discourage them?
Eliza Madrigal: Not sure we have a choice about them
Eliza Madrigal: we're always covering or uncovering maybe?
Korel Laloix: I think we have a choice to make new masks or not.
Riddle Sideways: saw in a debate last night that one of the debaters Does Not understand masks
Eliza Madrigal: to become more authentic?
Qt Core: a gentle prodding to undnerstand if they want to shed theirs and us ours ?
Wol Euler: lol riddle
Eliza Madrigal: Riddle :)
Qt Core: to discover the ones that are under the first one ?
Eliza Madrigal: masks all the way down :)
Riddle Sideways: it is Masks all the way down
Eliza Madrigal: snap!
Riddle Sideways: snap
Korel Laloix: lol
Korel Laloix: And really... would anyone want to look in a mirror that stripped all of our masks off?
Qt Core: sometimes i wonder if, really, is masks all the way down to animalistic instincts

--BELL--

Korel Laloix: Maybe all intelligence is... is the ability to make masks?
Qt Core: just to pursue safety, food and reproduction ?
Korel Laloix: lol.... well.. with reproduction..... that is probably the most mask-intensive activity of them all...
Eliza Madrigal: maybe masks can go in the other direction too
Eliza Madrigal: more and more open, transparent
Korel Laloix: Oh we certainly put masks on others... in an effort to shape them to our wishes in our minds.
Tura Brezoianu: an arms race between being able to make masks and being able to penetrate them
Korel Laloix: How we idolize some and demonize others.
Korel Laloix: With no real information on what they are really like.
Eliza Madrigal: projection
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes appropriate, to work with info given
Korel Laloix: Put masks on entire races is part of racism really.

Qt Core: leave the mask at home and watch chaos ensue... have you ever tried to respond "bad, thank you, and you" to people, almost stranger telling you "good morning, how are you ?"
Eliza Madrigal: lol
Korel Laloix: I tell people if they ask.. but maybe a cultural thing... ha!
Riddle Sideways: Being Seeing Mask Makers
Korel Laloix: Thinking about it more.... I find people putting masks on me more annoying than others wearing them.
Eliza Madrigal: Sometimes I answer more truthfully than at other items, like I just can't bear to carry the weight of the facade
Qt Core: i need to go, bye all, stay safe and have fun
Eliza Madrigal: bye Qt, tc
Riddle Sideways: by QT
Korel Laloix: Some facades make your life easier.. some harder.
Tura Brezoianu: bye Qt
Agatha Macbeth: Ciao Qt
Korel Laloix: Ciao
Eliza Madrigal: it is timing, I think
Korel Laloix: And situations.... in SL, everything is masks.
Eliza Madrigal nods... which can be so freeing
Wol Euler: bye qt
Eliza Madrigal: and vice versa, I know
Korel Laloix: Which is nice in some ways... freedom from retribution and judgment let you get the more authentic versions of people sometimes.
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: that was the promise of the whole internet at first I thought
Korel Laloix: Believe it or not, I am less confrontation in Sl than RL.. laughs
Riddle Sideways: ㋡
Eliza Madrigal: oh dear
Eliza Madrigal: lol
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Korel Laloix: I like to pull body language into ... so it ups it a level... ha!
Eliza Madrigal: I'm not confrontational in general, but I push back if I feel things are going in a direction I can't honestly go
Agatha Macbeth: Sometimes that's necessary
Riddle Sideways: Imagining a Level 11 Confrontationalist
Eliza Madrigal needs a code book for that title
Korel Laloix: I'm the same way. But for me, there is a difference between saying no to something... and pushing back on bad manners or other idiocy.
Eliza Madrigal: I feel like I flee when I should fight, and freeze when I should flee ^.^
Eliza Madrigal: I miss manners mostly :)
Wol Euler nods.
Korel Laloix: So true. What is worse are the people that think they are being polite and supportive but really they are being complete patronizing exploitive jerks.
Eliza Madrigal: my kids were saying I haven't taught them to small talk well enough
Riddle Sideways: good job
Wol Euler applauds!
Agatha Macbeth: Big talk is way better
Korel Laloix: lol.. ours are probably getting way too much of that.
Wol Euler: small talk is for small souls
Korel Laloix: Annie is not even five and she can talk the legs off a centipede already.

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: Aw
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Korel Laloix: And she has figure out the hair flip thing.... and I soooooo did not teach her that... lol
Agatha Macbeth: Wonderful
Korel Laloix: I blame it on Sama...
Eliza Madrigal grins
Eliza Madrigal imagines Kori doing a hair flip
Riddle Sideways: ㋡
Korel Laloix: It's so adorable though...
Eliza Madrigal: admittedly hard to imagine :)
Eliza Madrigal: so sweet
Korel Laloix flips her hair and batts her eyes at you
Korel Laloix: lol
Korel Laloix: Ok.. back to work..thanks for the chat.
Eliza Madrigal: I'm really happy when I think about your having a loving family :)
Korel Laloix: Take care all.
Korel Laloix: Lovely to see you
Agatha Macbeth: *Hugs*
Eliza Madrigal: bye Kori
Agatha Macbeth: You too
Wol Euler: bye korel, take care
Eliza Madrigal: I should get going too
Riddle Sideways: bye Kori
Wol Euler: and I
Korel Laloix: We have our moments... laughs..
Agatha Macbeth: Yes, that time
Wol Euler: sleep calls
Korel Laloix: do na da go hv i
Eliza Madrigal: Much appreciation <3
Riddle Sideways: must off
Agatha Macbeth: As always ♥
Riddle Sideways: thank you All
Tura Brezoianu: goodnight all
Wol Euler: <3
Wol Euler: stay healthy
Eliza Madrigal: Night and pleasant dreams
Eliza Madrigal: yes indeed
Agatha Macbeth: We shall endeavour
Agatha Macbeth: Tatty bye
Eliza Madrigal: ::waves with both hands:::
Wol Euler: take care