10-12 Dig This
Table of contents
by Calvino Rabeni
Editor's Picks
- 2010.06.12 19:00 - Witnessing, Playing, and Being
- 2010.06.10 01:00 - Perceptions of Disability and Relationships
- 2010.06.11 07:00 - Generous Pushing
- 2010.06.12 01:00
- 2010.06.12 19:00 - Witnessing, Playing, and Being
My intent in this Scribe Edition is to look at recent PlayAsBeing session through a thematic lens:
Imagination is the Gateway to Reality
It's interesting to look at the concepts dig/ grok, which refer to a state of deep understanding beyond the concrete facts of a situation; and the fundamental capacities of imagination and dream, which carry a variety of balancing negative and positive connotations that reveal their central place in the dynamic of knowing.
| Dig / Grok | grasp, compass, apprehend, get the meaning of something the intermingling of intelligence that necessarily affects both the observer and the observed - to understand so thoroughly that the observer becomes a part of the observed to empathize or communicate sympathetically (with); also, to experience enjoyment | |
| Imagination | the ability of forming mental images, sensations and concepts, in a moment when they are not perceived through sight, hearing or other senses imagination reveals what the world could be the ability to deal resourcefully with unusual problems | formation of a mental image of something that is not perceived as real and is not present to the senses |
| Dream | a series of mental images and emotions occurring during sleep someone or something wonderful | imaginative thoughts indulged in while awake; "he lives in a dream that has nothing to do with reality" a fantastic but vain hope a state of mind characterized by abstraction and release from reality |
So on the one hand imagination is the gateway to knowing beyond the superfical surfaces of reality; on the other hand it risks misapprehension and illusion if it diverges from "reality". In dreams, however, this requirement is relaxed. Clearly there is some convention - backed up by practical needs - to keep "real" and "not real" in separate conceptual compartments. But is this how it really works? There are many disciplines that explore the subtle relationships between reality and our "ways of knowing", including the following:
- From the Kira Dream Workshop: "This workshop addresses understanding the dream and the dreaming process -- as a process which is ongoing, waking or sleeping, and involving the unconscious regions of the mind, in which recent or intense sensory and emotional experiences are integrated into potential meaning for the individual."
- From the Tibetan Buddhist Lojong proverbs: "Treat everything you perceive (or all phenomena) as a dream."
The first statement could be read as saying that there is unconscious dreaming going on while a person is awake, but a more interesting interpretation is that the dreaming process is part of the means by which the mind makes sense of experience, while awake or asleep. Does the second statement say that the experienced world is somehow "not real"? Or does it, like the first statement, say something about the process by which we "know" the world?
2010.06.10 01:00 - Perceptions of Disability and Relationships
The guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado.
How can we understand others, especially ones whose appearance and even experience is "different"? Zen and Calvino are talking about people with disabilities, but from divergent perspectives - Calvino looking at the objective idea of their conditions, while Zen looks at the way they are perceived by others.
Zen Arado: there are so many variations in what happens with people with my type of MD - you wonder if it is the same disease sometimes
Calvino Rabeni: the same is true with what seems like the majority of medical challenges
Calvino Rabeni: the isolated, simple-cause phenomena now appear to be in the minority
Zen Arado: makes you realize how unique we all are, and not to put people in boxes
Calvino Rabeni: hmmm, I can't quite see that as "uniqueness" - just a large number of combinations of differences of a hypercomplex system
Zen Arado: I don't have any problem talking about MD to people - the more they know the better
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Zen Arado: although it can be a bit tiring sometimes
Calvino Rabeni: But it's more challenging in some ways, when the situation involves mental states
Zen Arado: yes I agree
Calvino Rabeni: Although I've seen people give it a go, which I admire
Zen Arado: so we judge people more from their mental ability than physical capacity?
Calvino Rabeni: Well, "judge" seems like it refers to the conclusion of a fairly long complex process - I'm not even sure people get there
What could understanding of diversity be "grounded" in?
Zen Arado: maybe it helps us be more understanding of others if we realize that we are all the same underneath - just our culture and life events have made us the way we are - so you see past the disability to the person underneath...
Calvino Rabeni: that's been a time-honoured strategy, Zen, but it concerns me a little
Zen Arado: why?
Calvino Rabeni: there's the assumption that it is necessary to assume sameness in order to accept and appreciate others - it seems a subtle form of "normal". Why not appreciate the differences, unconditionally?
Zen Arado: hmmmmm....good point Cal
Calvino Rabeni: But - it has worked pretty well historically Zen - although I think the strategy is getting a little strained now - it is stressed by complexity and diversity
Zaldaan Sirnah: I thought it concerned him because it implies that deep down he must actually be that concerned person too, in essence. :)
Calvino Rabeni: that seems true also
Zaldaan Sirnah: if you take everyone and remove all the heat, don't they condense into one particle?
Calvino Rabeni: being "different" or "the same" seems almost meaningless - or perhaps it's just an aesthetic choice of what to look at
Zen Arado: it's maybe about how you respond to differences
Calvino Rabeni: that would matter :)
Zen Arado: fear them or appreciate them
Zaldaan Sirnah: well, for some reason I don't see people explaining. When they say, "we're all the same" they don't give the underlying truth
Calvino Rabeni: If seeing the sameness makes people feel more relaxed about the differences - which I'd guess it does - then it sounds like a good strategy
Zaldaan Sirnah: although nowadays some people mention a few things here and there
Zen Arado: but through meditation I get back to 'being' 'true self' etc which I think I share with others?
Zen Arado: I realize I have a lot in common with all humanity yet appreciate my own particular uniqueness at the same time?
Calvino Rabeni: that sounds intelligent
Zen Arado: and also appreciate the uniqueness of others?
Calvino Rabeni: one question is what is the effect of this being a unilateral condition - if you do it and others don't ...
Zen Arado: hope it's not intelligent but a form of 'not - knowing' :)
Calvino Rabeni: I would call that real intelligence
2010.06.10 07:00 - Stars and butterflies
The Guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind.
In this session, the images from a night dream enter the sphere of social creative process, and then take physical form in online media. Who knows where the images originated, and where the
Lucinda Lavender: I would like to make a picture where I see a picture of my self and butterflies are landing on me
Lucinda Lavender: this was my dream yesterday.
After much camera manoeuvering, plus taking and retaking of snapshots, I had taken a photograph of Lucinda with the red admiral butterflies and uploaded it. I passed it to her and also put it on a board for everyone to see.
2010.06.10 13:00 - wiki problems, crashing, worldcup, jokes...
The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun.
Mick describes the stimulating and imaginative effect of an elevated physical position.
Mickorod Renard: I used to spend alot of time on roofs for my work once, it was fun to see a city from a diferent perspective
Sometimes an incpmplete perspective is the occasion for great merriment and jocularity:
Agatha Macbeth: (Ha, i can type one-handed, cool)
Wol Euler raises an eyebrow
Agatha Macbeth: Illogical Captain
Mickorod Renard: what u doin with the other hand?
Wol Euler: huh
Mickorod Renard: dont answer
Agatha Macbeth: Drinking Mick...
Mickorod Renard: phew
... if you can bear it:
Storm Nordwind covers his eyes and ears
People notice perspectives, and are aware if they are vacated. Beware leaving your avatar uninhabited. When this person tried it, the following picture shows what happened:
stevenaia Michinaga: hmmm, I am being called away in RL, brb, just ignore my slumpted over avatar :0
Kiki Walpanheim: yes, bleu....i read about the advice on the 90 sec pause and tried
Kiki Walpanheim: ty
Kiki Walpanheim: and it feels good
Bleu Oleander: have you applied it to RL?
Paradise Tennant: smiles ... I find .. I still have to force myself to remember to stop sometimes ..
Paradise Tennant: to breathe .. be aware .. empty out a bit
Paradise Tennant: so easy to become immersed in our whirly gig world :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
Bleu Oleander: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: now picturing a whirly gig world, and me stading somewhere out of it
SophiaSharon Larnia: stanbding*
SophiaSharon Larnia: lol
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Paradise Tennant: perfect approach to take to whirly gigness ;)
SophiaSharon Larnia: watching it
Paradise Tennant: yes
Paradise Tennant: sometimes the awareness is just observation
SophiaSharon Larnia: even when it doesnt seem as such, at the time
Kiki Walpanheim: sorry was processsing several chats at the same time
Kiki Walpanheim: what was the question?
Paradise Tennant: yes but it brings .. distance
SophiaSharon Larnia: np kiki
Kiki Walpanheim: yes i practiced it in rl
Kiki Walpanheim: but didnt follow the timing exactly
Kiki Walpanheim: but the break and meditation feels good
Paradise Tennant: use to find that if I set my watch to beep it would help remind me
Bleu Oleander: yes
Kiki Walpanheim: i need to go.......
Paradise Tennant: cal did you have anything you wanted to talk about tonight :)
Paradise Tennant: sits on her hands and behaves :)
Calvino Rabeni: heheh
SophiaSharon Larnia contentedly listens to the silence
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Calvino Rabeni: Well after the shocking disappearance of Steve under somewhat irregular circumstances...
Calvino Rabeni: I thought it might be good to turn to something of an upbeat topic...
Calvino Rabeni: A testimonial I recently found in the Blogosphere
Calvino Rabeni: Always good to see some excitement from our readers and listeners, isn't it?
Calvino Rabeni: So recently I came across this:
Calvino Rabeni: ". I've been teetering on the edge of doing more writing, so all this great stuff going on at Play as Being has pushed me over the edge. It feels good ..."
Bleu Oleander: very nice!
Calvino Rabeni: The 1pm sessions seem most jokey usually, less serious
Wol Euler smiles
Darren Islar: ah yes, it's friday :)
Calvino Rabeni: but it can't be because of the 1, since most participants aren't in SLT zone
Calvino Rabeni: I think it might be "just got off work" happy hour effect
Wol Euler: "The weekend starts here!"
Calvino Rabeni: Or something related to the time it is in eurpoe
Darren Islar: I think so too, celebrating weekend
Calvino Rabeni: not just fridays, wol, but I think, every day :)
Wol Euler: yes, the 1pms are much less serious than the 7pms, sure
Darren Islar: 1 pm sessions are different
Calvino Rabeni: I noticed, but the reason seems mysterious still
Darren Islar: to most europeans it is 9 or 10 o' clock in the evening
Calvino Rabeni: There's a lot of Do It Yourself subcultures - some like brewing and distilling
Wol Euler: home winemaking, from strange ingredients
Calvino Rabeni: A lot of binge drinking in colleges
Wol Euler: turnip and raspberry wine
Zaldaan Sirnah: A friend of mine, who ran a coffee shop, told me the coffee used by those chains was not even low grade, but the grade used for landscaping/decoration!
Calvino Rabeni: Right, or dandelion wine, or nettle (yum)
2010.06.11 07:00 - Generous Pushing
The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal.
I would characterize this as a quirky-but-interesting session, which highlights the relative vs. absolute question we eventually touch on, after discussing ideas of time, motion, awareness, dreams, and wu wei.
Zen Arado:
Mitsu Ishii: so one day I was practicing martial arts with my old teacher, Michael Thompson
: we were doing an exercise in which you sit down and try to push each other
: one person pushes into the other Mitsu Ishii: and the "goal" so to speak is to push the person over
: it's interesting because you really have to relax to be able to push effectively
: and to absorb the other person's push
: anyway, so I was doing this with my teacher
: it was like trying to push a brick wall
: so there I was, struggling and struggling to push him and he was just sitting there
Mitsu Ishii: so finally he leans over and says "be more generous"
Mitsu Ishii: and it was like a light bulb over my head
Mitsu Ishii: I realized the problem was I had been thinking of it in terms of a conflict, I'm trying to push him over / but instead, if I think of it as being generous with my energy, suddenly I felt a new reservoir of energy / and I could be generous with it
Gaya Ethaniel nods. Seeing the other as an enemy ...
Mitsu Ishii: so that worked a lot better. I always remember that moment
Zen Arado: so...just changing his thoughts gave him so much more energy
SophiaSharon Larnia: hmm
Eliza Madrigal: and the thought that pushing would be a generous thing is fascinating ...
Zen Arado: got him closer to 'the flow'?
Eliza Madrigal: yes, kind of flipped things inside out
2010.06.11 13:00 - Worldcup on a not so silly friday
The Guardian for this meeting was Yakuzza Lethecus.
Fael Innovia: today's meeting is somewhat unusual somehow... can't put a finger on it :)
Wol Euler mopes
Fael Innovia: meep! :)
arabella Ella: yeaaa!
Zen Arado: you bought a sun lamp Fael?
Fael Innovia gets a big questionmark on top of her head and tilts her head a bit, looking puzzled.
Zen Arado: you look rather dark skinned ?
arabella Ella: it is summer Zen
Fael Innovia: Yes, my skin is dark :)
Calvino Rabeni: To Meep or to Mope, that is the question...
The Guardian for this meeting was Pema Pera.
Calvino Rabeni: what are your main activities these days?
Pema Pera: recently more astrophysics
Pema Pera: more than I've done in the last three years in fact, since I got into virtual worlds
Calvino Rabeni: ah, what's the topic area?
Pema Pera: astrophysics computer simulations, with also branches into special-domain language development and even category theory
Pila Mulligan: do you think there is any skill to keeping up your luck?
Bertram Jacobus: it´s really amazing, i feel so free in my life like ... never before ? i think, i can say that. am astonished by myself about that. but it longs now already so long - many month that my feeling is ... different, free ... that i nearly have to say so - for example
Bertram Jacobus: yes : skill to meet the transcendent
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: I agree empirically and intuitvely, but it is difficult to describe rationally
Bertram Jacobus: yes. but for example : my refuge lama has cast me out (!) - and i gain advantages even from that (!) ...
Pila Mulligan: ahh, sounds like an interesting life episode
Bertram Jacobus: i´m happy you understand so well ! ... :-)
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, tell us more, if you would like to:)
--BELL--
Bertram Jacobus: i don´t know what to tell may be best - but perhaps this : it´sm a chance and challenge to kinda "grow", to take even more responsibility for all i am , i do and such ... another point ... :
Darren Islar: I think on a psychological level we all have experiences fo a more or less stable mind
Darren Islar: especially the ones that includes meditation in their lives
Darren Islar: but I don't know if that has got something to do with the absolute
Darren Islar: which actually can't be approached on that leve
Darren Islar: level
Bertram Jacobus: whcih approach would you see darren ?
Darren Islar: I cant say bert what you really mean and what you have learned
Darren Islar: but I feel I'm hasitating a bit in hearing such big words
Darren Islar: I don't know yet, because I only know the psychological leve
Darren Islar: level
Darren Islar: I know it is there, sometimes touching it, most of the time unexpectedly
Darren Islar: and I knwo it is there because I see it functioning in my teacher(s)
Bertram Jacobus: so much what could be said to that (!) ...
Darren Islar: and that is what I can say about it, actually, not knowing more
Darren Islar: I don't know about you, but I've seen people mixing up the different layers of psychology, symoblism and wisdom
Darren Islar: and I think the absolute can only be 'touched' at the wisdom level
Bertram Jacobus: first what came into my mind about that, was :
Bertram Jacobus: there are or i know two ways of handling something : we can say, we understand or we can say, we can´t . understand each other for example . and there always are common things and differences . and we can focus both . it´s in so many texts said that we decide and create what happens. so i for example prefere to understand, to try at least and to see and feel the common things . but one can´t do that for others for sure
--BELL--
Bertram Jacobus: what not means, that i wouldn´t see the different and dividing aspects too or would deny them ( an often occuring misunderstandÃng)
Darren Islar: at the same time there are so many parts of the brain that need to work together
Pila Mulligan: aspects of the absolute probably percolate up through the layers of intellect, psychology and symoblism
Darren Islar: aspects of it sure
Pila Mulligan: then those may blossom in time
Darren Islar: in moments yes
Pila Mulligan: for indiviudals seeing them
Bertram Jacobus: and i think about the big and great words that not only buddha and jesus spoke ... if such people hadn´t done so ... we would miss may be the most important help we have in life (and many others may have been followed, but not so famous) ...
Bertram Jacobus: and the lectures explain also that, don´t they ? i think, most of us may know them (?) : that we first see a bit of that, then more and more and in the end it gets constantly ...
Bertram Jacobus: becomes*
Darren Islar: I don't know about the latter, lacking the experience, but I agree Bert, I'm happy there are buddha;s and poeple like Jesus around to teach us
Pila Mulligan: helping us get parts of life to work together :)
Bertram Jacobus: i think we can be so happy to live in circumstances like the current ones are (!) ... have so many possibilities to grow
Darren Islar: true
Yakuzza Lethecus: ah with them, oh it´s fine nothing special tho to have coffee with them, actually i often think that i should enjoy those ,,normal" things more
Pema Pera: Hi Myna, so good to see you again!
Yakuzza Lethecus: i kind of go through so many things in an non mindful way so to speak
Pema Pera: very important to enjoy "normal" things :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: oh, i have to admit i usually also like to read more around here when the topic is more pab related, still i don´t know how to bring contemplative topics into a flow and an elaborated form to share it
Myna Maven: Anyway, the fish. When we first got them, it was interesting....ended up contemplating quite a bit what it would be to live without closing one's eyes.
Myna Maven: Well, contemplated it for a while.
Myna Maven: We associate sleep, rest, and often meditativeness, with the ability to shut one's eyes....close out the observed world of the visual sense
Zaldaan Sirnah: do fish sleep?
Darren Islar: I don't think I would think of contemplating about something like that, it wouldn't come to mind :)
Myna Maven: Yes, they do sleep. But I haven't read much about it.
Darren Islar: I don't close my eyes when meditating
Yakuzza Lethecus: Answer:Yes fish sleep. But it’s not sleep as we know it. They don’t have eyelids to close, they sometimes do it during the day, they don’t show the characteristic brainwave patterns like REM sleep seen in humans, and some, including most sharks have to keep swimming in their sleep.+
Yakuzza Lethecus: just copy pasted that from a website
Myna Maven: I sometimes close my eyes. Sometimes don't.
Yakuzza Lethecus: http://bigquestion.wordpress.com/200...do-fish-sleep/
Myna Maven: It's very difficult to anthropomorphize fish, which is one reason it's nice to have them around. Contemplating different states of being.
Myna Maven: Very different from cats and dogs, at least it was for me, as an urban dweller.
Myna Maven: Considering it might be easier to anthropomorphize fish with hands.
Darren Islar: I don't think I get it
Myna Maven: Fish with hands? Well, there are fish with hands. But I was just being fanciful. Considering what features of animals make us more partial to attributing human characteristics to them.
Darren Islar: ah, okay
Darren Islar: fish with hands? :)
Myna Maven: Play at Being thinking what it's like to be a fish.
2010.06.12 13:00 - Soccer, what else?
The Guardian for this meeting was Darren Islar.
As most saturdays lately, it started of quietly, some people coming in late, but this time not really getting busy. So we talked about everything and nothing, with the most interesting thing what football means to us
Bertram Jacobus: i appreciate so much that all here are so kind ...
Darren Islar: so do I :)
Bertram Jacobus: i find that very supporting ...
Wester Kiranov: i agree
Bertram Jacobus: and to be here with interesting topics and calm sometimes - so good ! ...
Darren Islar: any topic one of you like to talk about?
Bertram Jacobus: but these ... how are they called vuzuvelas ? these sound trumpets are really ugly aren´t they ? ;o)
arabella Ella: he he
arabella Ella: you honestly think they are ugly?
Bertram Jacobus: because they change the sound in the stadiums so intense
Bertram Jacobus: my beloved patterns !
arabella Ella: makes for more atmosphere
arabella Ella: and one thing i hope with this world cup
arabella Ella: that it will help the ugly ghost of racism to perhaps get lessened
Bertram Jacobus: yess - i think, it´s wonderful for africa
arabella Ella: after all we are all human beings all born the same
Darren Islar: if that would be the result, that surely would be great
arabella Ella: i am just hopeful
arabella Ella: as racism in europe has become very ugly
arabella Ella: well if you see my FB page I found a link between football, art and philosophy which is very interesting :)
Darren Islar: nog very interesting to me though
Zen Arado: see what page?
arabella Ella: let me find it give me a minute pls
Zen Arado: ok sure
Darren Islar: sounds interesting ara
arabella Ella: this is it
arabella Ella: http://www.apexart.org/exhibitions/critchley.htm
arabella Ella: there is an art exhibition in USA called men with balls
arabella Ella: and simon critchley who is a philosopher is curator
Darren Islar: men with balls :))
2010.06.12 19:00 - Witnessing, Playing, and Being
The Guardian for this meeting was Pema Pera.
Pema Pera: may I ask, have your tried to take some short few-second breaks, a few times, to see what that was like?
druth Vlodovic: I've checked it out
Pema Pera: do you have any questions, or comments?
druth Vlodovic: I guess that means no all 'round :) have you tried it pema?
In response to Druth's questions, I gave a quick but probably much too terse reply.
Pema Pera: oh sure, I like to take those little breaks -- like meditation for lazy people :-)
Pema Pera: only a few seconds at a time, rather than half an hour or a day ; but what is surprising is that it still works to some extent
Pema Pera: in my own experience, at least, being reminded is half the message
Pema Pera: sitting then for another half hour can be nice, but doesn't seem to be the most central point
Pema Pera: btw, I love the quote in your profile "Coincidentally truth always seems to lie right where we stop looking for it." -- so true (^_^)
druth Vlodovic: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi, apologies, here :)
Pema Pera: how did you hit upon that, by experience :-) ?
Pema Pera: wb Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: ty
--BELL--
druth Vlodovic: seemed logical
Pema Pera: So you're modifying the saying "it was in the last place I looked" by saying "it was in the first place I didn't look" . . . I really like that!
druth Vlodovic: fatigue has created more philosophies... lol
Pema Pera: hahaha, lazy = good, it helps to find shorcuts, and to cut through knots
druth Vlodovic: you said "being reminded is half the message" reminded of what?
Pema Pera: reminded that we tend to get caught up in the story of whatever we are focused on right now
Pema Pera: while paying too little attention to all the beauty around us
Pema Pera: we also tend to inflate our own importance, and the importance of all our little tasks, and a short break can shoot a little hole in that inflation
Pema Pera: we are mesmerized by our little endeavors - I'm speaking from my own experience at least -- and I always appreciate reminders to smell the flowers
Pema Pera: or "to drop what I have to see what I am"
druth Vlodovic: do you tend to look in or out when you do this?
Pema Pera: both, while trying to see whether there is really any difference, there may not be
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pema Pera: "in" and "out" are labels, ideas, like plastic covers that we put on an expensive sofa before we sit on it
Pema Pera: when I look around me, I see my experience that is offering me the world -- and when I look inside me, I see all the judgments of others that I take so seriously, all the praise and blame, and all the fragility for which I'm trying to use the outside world as a crutch
Pema Pera: it's all so intermingled . . .
After my somewhat complex attempt to show the difficulties separating inner and outer, Eliza gave a more gentle tour guide impression of the 9-sec break.
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes the pause just kind of softens my view... it isnt always that I stop and am quiet... sometimes I'm just relaxing with the same thoughts...
Eliza Madrigal: go from trying to nail them down to letting them roll a bit... :)
Pema Pera: yes, stopping the frantic attempts to hold our story together
Pema Pera: we all play as having (all kind of problems and limitations)
Pema Pera: but we could play as being (part of the Universe, or even all of Being)
Pema Pera: we have the choice, and a little break reminds me not to continue the track of having
Pema Pera: having, carrying, sweating it out, trying to carry the world upon our shoulders .....
--BELL--
Pema Pera: Hi Dre
Dream Wrexan: Of course, this is an ideal for me - not always achievable in the heat of emotion
Pema Pera: yes, that's a wonderful kind of exploration, a real adventure, I'm always amazed when I remind myself to do that
Dream Wrexan: but I'm getting better.
Eliza Madrigal smiles
druth Vlodovic: "the examined life" :)
Dream Wrexan: exactly, druth!
Pema Pera: yes, and that's why we have this "9 seconds break every 15 minutes" as a trick to remind ourselves regularly
And how nice to share this kind of intention among four friends!
Pema Pera: but I'm still curious, if I may: I agree that taking that kind of stance is very illuminating and also practically helpful -- but do you think it is the ultimate solution/approach, or do you think there may still be something else, possibly even more effective?
Dream Wrexan: I'm open to ideas. :-)
Pema Pera: what puzzles me just a bit is the notion of distance, of separation, between the witness and what is witnessed . . .
Pema Pera: can that be the final answer, that that distance remains, or do you think that drops away somehow, somewhen?