Play as Being... and religion

from: 2008.08.01 07:00 - Adding a Lump Sum at the End of the Day

Adams Rubble: No I felt myself lifting; I saw the clouds and the sun...and finally the vision of God sitting on the cloud. I never experienced anything like this my entire life, and now twice.
Gaya Ethaniel: hm... Don’t think i have had similar experience strong in visual - feeling actions. For me, it's more like seeing myself in a particular 'image' otherwise my experiences are sensory without much visual clues.
Neela Blaisdale: But Adams why do you want to know the source? It seems like where ever it came from it was enjoyable?
Adams Rubble: I am having trouble understanding why you question my wanting to know, wants to know everything. Yes, it was very pleasant
Adams Rubble is thinking of Hamlet's comment to Horatio "There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy
Adams Rubble: just to clarify...MY philosophy :)
Gaya Ethaniel remembers everyone is different in understanding Being
Adams Rubble: Yes Gaya
Neela Blaisdale: Maybe you will have to have more of these to understand them better
Adams Rubble: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: what I would say about your wanting to understand is sometimes it can hinder you in experiencing more.... I could be wrong though
Adams Rubble: I believe I am very fortunate indeed :) Thank you both for your insights :)
Gaya Ethaniel is also frazzled by insomnia
Neela Blaisdale: And just like the vision came at a certain time, the understanding may also have its own time frame
Adams Rubble: The second one came at a very different time
Neela Blaisdale: How were they different?
Adams Rubble: Well, as you may know, I have substituted the concept of God for the concept of Being for now. In the first one, I went looking for God. In the second one, God came to me. In the first I was going toward the light. In the second, there was no light...all dark.
Neela Blaisdale: So I understand better, when you substitute God for being, do you consider you as God in the same way you as Being?
Adams Rubble: No, I have not yet experienced any sense of "oneness"
Neela Blaisdale: So is it a different experience for you now and if so how?
Adams Rubble: I don't understand the question, Neela
Neela Blaisdale: Since you began substituting God for Being, is the 9 sec experience different for you?
Adams Rubble: Yes, I think it is. I am working within metaphors I have long known. I am following them by instinct. It is new ground for me and seemingly very powerful
Gaya Ethaniel nods ‘I've given up trying to 'think' in 'words' and 'concepts'’
Adams Rubble: My blog keeps me in words but they fail me often
Neela Blaisdale: Simply feel the experience?
Gaya Ethaniel: know the feeling
Gaya Ethaniel: anyhow I’m glad for you Adams that you feel you're getting somewhere with 9 sec
Gaya Ethaniel: Christians do meditation I understand Adams
Adams Rubble: Well, that's the funny thing Gaya. I gave up Christianity over 40 years ago. But now I am finding the language so helpful to understanding what everyone is doing here
genesis Zhangsun: So God is the finger then pointing Adams? You are not a Christian anymore?
Neela Blaisdale: It was interesting Adams because until you and Pema had that dialogue I didn't connect any of this to religion
Adams Rubble: I am a bit confused on that point Gen. Some days I think I may be :) I understand the concept of God. I have had real mystical-like experiences the past couple of weeks.
Prosper Telling: Ah, the G-word... I think that might be the besy definition of God I've heard in a while ;-)
genesis Zhangsun: Only meant Adams that perhaps God, the concept of God is pointing you in the direction. But "God" as known by Christians is not the be all end all for you.
Neela Blaisdale: Well circling back to our earlier discussion if you ever understand how to induce them let us know!
Adams Rubble: Well, I am open to that suggestion. Pema speaks the language of Christianity very well to me. Lots of thoughts there :)
Gaya Ethaniel: What works for me may not work for you though Neela. I tend to try out what people say here.
Prosper Telling: Yeah, I lack karmic affinity with Christianity. Well, I would in my youth blame Christianity... I could go on and on about its short comings and oxymoron... But as I got older, noticed how I could overlook similar problems in other faiths, I found that it was in this case more about me. It just never clicked.
Gaya Ethaniel: I also realised that all main religions point to same direction Prosper. Just we are receptive to a particular religion or philosophy, if not at all
Adams Rubble: I understand what you are saying Prosper. I do not accept the concept of sin.
Prosper Telling: Yeah, proud member of the Unitarian Universalist (www.uua.org) here, so me too. All powerful is one of my sticking points.
Adams Rubble: But Being seems to be all powerful
Prosper Telling: But Being acts through attraction rather than domination... Very process theology here.
Neela Blaisdale: But being seems somehow more benevolent. Also being feels to me like I also have a small part it making it what it is. Kind of an obligation to all thing but from me not someone or thing outside of me
Adams Rubble: My Christian God is benevolent, not dominating. I am not very good with theology :)
Gaya Ethaniel: I’m surprised to hear that Being gives you such feelings... wonder why I can't ascribe any such emotions to Being
Prosper Telling: And that's back to it being about me.
Adams Rubble: We find what fits us :)

2008.08.02 13:00 – God, god, belief, religion… Being… and PaB

Gaya Ethaniel: No... just sometimes I feel that the 'tension' hinders free discussion, we get hung upon words such as 'god'. How god translates into what we do at PaB rather than sharing our experiences
Quilty Bookmite: I had a long argument with a Christian some years back. She asked if I believe in God. I asked her to define God and she said God couldn't be defined. So I said I couldn;t tell her if I believe or not.
Fael Illyar: I still feel unsure about what people mean when they say "God".
Gaya Ethaniel: Yeah... seems that a lot of us are unsure of what 'God' means
Fael Illyar: Quilty if you define God as something that can't be defined, that's the same as Zen
Wol Euler: I find that my uncertainty of what God means maps nearly 1:1 onto my uncertainty of what Being means :-) I suspect that they might be front and side views of the same thing.
Quilty Bookmite: Maybe you could define them the same way if you could define them. :-)
Fael Illyar: Interestingly, I'm finding myself being more certain about Being. I'm just uncertain if I can say Being = God
Quilty Bookmite: In Zen there are many such words that all seem to point at the same thing. The founder of our order wasn’t afraid to use the word God occasionally. :-)
Gaya Ethaniel: Pema used 'divinity' for Being... guess God can be interchangeable with Being in this sense?
Tahuti Thor: I think God is basically what or who u look to when u feel uneasy or down. Someone or something u reconnect to make yourself whole again. Someone or something that makes u feel pure.....and it is a feeling.....whatever concept u have of God don’t matter and people fight over the concepts.
Isen Enzo: Make me one with everything...
Quilty Bookmite: I think such discussions, which seem to point at different belief systems having a common root, can make some people uncomfortable.
Wol Euler nods at Quilty.
Isen Enzo: My concepts are better than your concepts! Are too! Are no!
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Fael Illyar: :)
Quilty Bookmite: :-)
Isen Enzo: One of our vows is not to toot our own horn... another is not to bad-mouth others... (I paraphrase)
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Wol Euler: More lilkely "My concepts are inherited and unexamined and your having different ones challenges me to think about mine"
Isen Enzo: Yes- Wol!
Fael Illyar: Wol, I find that to be true in most cases :)
Tahuti Thor: so each party lives on different segments of world and there is communication between the two
Gaya Ethaniel: So what's your thoughts on 'god' Isen? We were discussing it while you were away
Fael Illyar: 'god' or 'God'?
Gaya Ethaniel: hm... a good question
Fael Illyar: well, not that I know very well what you would mean with either :P
Gaya Ethaniel: I felt some people at PaB talk a lot of 'God' rather than 'god' I understood 'God' as Being so far....
Fael Illyar: I suspect that's what was the original meaning for 'God'.
Gaya Ethaniel: But I guess for some people, 'God' isn't same as Being?
Fael Illyar: I'd go as far to say for most people it isn't
Wol Euler nods
Gaya Ethaniel: ah...
Faenik: why not?
Quilty Bookmite: I started out in Buddhism because I had read that all the major religions have mysticism at their core. Buddhism I felt was the purest expression of that. That suggests to me that what is called God in one religion may be equivalent to something else in another. Sorry, that seem like I'm trying to sell Buddhism. I'm just explaining my own thinking.
Gaya Ethaniel: No think what you said made sense 'what is called God in one religion may be equivalent to something else in another.'
Fael Illyar: You're free to sell it as far as I'm concerned :) as long as you stop if someone asks
Quilty Bookmite: I don;t like evangelism, especially from myself. :-)
Fael Illyar: haha :)
Fael Illyar: But I'd have to agree with you Quilty. Buddhism, especially Zen, seems somehow more pure than other major religions at least the ones I know of.
Quilty Bookmite: I think that is mainly perception. I just know it suits the way I think, which is too much. :-)
Gaya Ethaniel: So just going back, I guess the 'tension' between certain people was due to the fact that they have different understanding of 'God'? And how they relate to Being and PaB practice?
Fael Illyar: Gaya, perhaps :)
Wol Euler: that sounds about right, Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: So understanding how each of us define 'Being' is rather crucial... then. So far what are your thoughts on Being guys? Do you think of it as 'God' as I do?
Quilty Bookmite: Define God. :-)
Wol Euler: to both Q and G.
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Quilty please define
Quilty Bookmite: I can't I'm afraid. I think they may be the same thing. I would refer to the Cosmic Buddha or the Unborn. I think there is also a slightly different emphasis when you use the word God though.
Fael Illyar: I avoid using "God" unless I know how the person I'm talking to understands it. And I'm uneasy talking to someone I'm not familiar with who uses "God" because then I'll have no idea what they're talking about.
Wol Euler: My attitude is expressed in a comment on the Post Secret blog some time back: "Whenever I go into a church building, I apologise to God for not believing in him."
Quilty Bookmite: I have to be careful how I phrase this. :-)
Wol Euler: I am amused and touched by the ambiguity.
Quilty Bookmite: God has this sense of being something other than yourself. And in Christianity God is somewhat anthropomorphised. I'm told this isn’t the same in Judaism. And I don;t know how God is perceived in Islam. Perhaps I should find out. :-)
Gaya Ethaniel: I feel that I need to be more aware of the context of 'God' is raised ex. religious background of the person who is using the word - though it's not always possible to tell how the word is intended when discussing in PaB...
Gaya Ethaniel: What do you mean by 'anthropomorphised' Quilty?
Quilty Bookmite: Sorry. I mean appears to be like a human being. You know, the big man in the robes and the flowing beard. :-)
Gaya Ethaniel: I see. I never thought the Christian god as a human being...
Quilty Bookmite: Not every Christian does.
Wol Euler: definitely, but AFAIK that is in the Torah too. The God of Moses definitely has human attributes: he walks in his garden in the cool of the evening, and enjoys a good meal with his friends.
Quilty Bookmite: And it says man was made in God’s image.
Wol Euler: indeed
Quilty Bookmite: By the way, I realise I am a little out of my depth and I have no intension of belittling other peoples religion. I apologise if I cause offense.
Wol Euler shakes her head. None here.
Gaya Ethaniel: No... no offence caused at least to me
Fael Illyar: no offence taken.
Quilty Bookmite: Thank you. :-)
Quilty Bookmite: I got put off Christianity at an early age. It is only recently I have come to appreciate its merits.
Fael Illyar: I could say the same thing.
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I see less and less distinction between diff religions
Quilty Bookmite: It's easily done. I now appreciate that sometimes what we perceive as religion is actually just people twisting religion to their own beliefs.
Wol Euler: Definitely. I feel that there is a difference worth noting between "belief" and "religion". Most beliefs overlap to a very high extent in my vague and uninformed opinion whereas religions try to be as different as possible. Exclusive, for the sake of exclusivity = keeping people in the club.
Quilty Bookmite: Yes! I am as vague and unformed as you Wol.
Gaya Ethaniel: What do you mean by 'belief' Wol?
Quilty Bookmite: And yet within Christianity I see a whole range of very different beliefs even within the people who go to the same church. And I think it should be that way.
Fael Illyar: All the splinters :)
Wol Euler: hmmm, what people hold to be true and significant, what they feel gives worth to them and their lives, what gives them guidance. As opposed to religion, which is a set of rules and prescriptions.
Quilty Bookmite: If we don’t hold different beliefs it shows we are not thinking for ourselves.
Wol Euler: Most of which exist to confirm those who have wealth and power in their position of authority.
Quilty Bookmite: Not necessarily Wol. :-) At least not that I have seen in the UK.
Gaya Ethaniel: I’m curious to know how one begins to 'believe' Wol. How does that 'belief' come about
Wol Euler: I think one starts with belief, and searches for a religion that matches it.
Quilty Bookmite: Belief is almost a human necessity. It's how we try and make sense of the world. A scientist may tell you they have no belief but science itself is built on fundamental belief.
Tahuti Thor: Indoctrination while young...there is no search. You are told what to believe, like Santa Claus
Gaya Ethaniel: No indoctrination received here... but i don't necessarily search for a particular religion as all religions are valid to an extent to me...
Quilty Bookmite: You can always change your mind Tahuti. :-) Do you believe anything?
Gaya Ethaniel: Very true Quilty - Buddhism most flexible in that way :)
Tahuti Thor: As you age the brain becomes less malleable
Quilty Bookmite: As an ex-Atheist, I believed the line that religion was a way to control the people. I don’t think that is the whole truth.
 Wol Euler: A very good question, Quilty. One of the reasons I come here is that I don't know the answer.
Tahuti Thor: And people don’t like having beliefs that go against family tradition
Fael Illyar: From what I've seen about Zen Buddhism, nowhere are people told what to believe.
Quilty Bookmite: Right Fael. You are told to see for yourself.
Gaya Ethaniel: Well not just Zen Fael - the Buddha asked all his followers not to accept blindly his teachings but to try out for themselves
Wol Euler: And yet there are monasteries and scriptures and exercises and traditions.
Fael Illyar: Gaya, Zen is the only one I've looked at more deeply.
Quilty Bookmite: Yes. Many, many scriptures. :-) But they only serve to point the way.
Gaya Ethaniel: I believe those are by-product of cultures Wol
Gaya Ethaniel: Sure Fael - I was quoting Dhammapada
Wol Euler: That is where I see the difference between belief (what the Buddha had) and religion (what his followers created to sell the idea to the public)
Quilty Bookmite: One of Buddhas descendents, Ananda, knew all the scriptures by heart and yet he still didn't "get it" not until much later.
Fael Illyar: "By heart" meaning he/she could recite them all from memory?
Quilty Bookmite: Yes.
Gaya Ethaniel: yes
Fael Illyar: sounds more like just memorizing than "by heart" but then, that's a way of speaking :)
Quilty Bookmite: Some reckon it set him back years in his training.