2014.09.01 13:00 - Minding Moral Dilemmas

The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.

Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Korel!
Korel Laloix: just on for a little bit. How you been Aph?
Aphrodite Macbain: well thanks - you? Have you decided whether to go to Africa?
Korel Laloix: I am going for sure... but what that looks like now is a bit of a shadow.
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Aph!
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Kori!
Aphrodite Macbain: you both look so summery and I look like I'm already fall
Bruce Mowbray: ooops, gotta get the corn on the cob --- (forgot all about it!)
Korel Laloix: The second part we may not go on as our contact contracted the disease and the office has lost contact with him. So....
Aphrodite Macbain: Oh dear Kori. How frustrating
Korel Laloix: We did not even have a proper summer here.
Korel Laloix: Last three years have been cool, but not a lot of tornadoes, so a mix.
Aphrodite Macbain: fewer tornadoes are good

Korel Laloix: Still doing the Uganda part, but not sure about the Liberia bit now.
Aphrodite Macbain: ah- have there been outbreaks of Ebola in Uganda?
Korel Laloix: Not this round. But there was a project there a few months back taking samples and that team got in a bad car accident, so we are going to finish things off, or so I understand.
Aphrodite Macbain: good

Korel Laloix: So still going to be a good trip I think, just only one month
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Zon
Zon Kwan: heya
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Matjaz
Korel Laloix: Matjaz Rives: Hi guys
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Danielle
Korel Laloix: Osiyo
Danielle Restless: Hi
Aphrodite Macbain: welcome
Bruce Mowbray: Whew. Okay, I'm back. Howdy, Zon. Howdy, Danielle.
Aphrodite Macbain: Hey druth!
Korel Laloix: How is the corn doing?
Bruce Mowbray: Still too hot to nibble.
Aphrodite Macbain: Is it as high as an elephant's eye?
druth Vlodovic: howdy all
Bruce Mowbray: OH.. THAT corn!?
Bruce Mowbray: Higher actually.
Aphrodite Macbain: wow
Aphrodite Macbain: even an African elephant?
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, druth.
Korel Laloix: Heya
Bruce Mowbray: I'm doing African elephant mating calls - hoping to attract some so I can measure the corn against their eyes..
Aphrodite Macbain: Danielle and Matjaz, have you been here before?
Matjaz Rives: yes, I've been
Aphrodite Macbain: giggles at Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Are you going to Africa, Kori?
Korel Laloix: Yes, it is settled now.
Bruce Mowbray: WELCOME BACK, Danielle and Matjaz!!
Bruce Mowbray: Great!
Bruce Mowbray: Give my love to Sunshine.
Matjaz Rives: Danielle has never been here before
Bruce Mowbray: oohh, sry.
druth Vlodovic: I hope you get your own big orange suit
Aphrodite Macbain: so I guess you know what you say will be recorded on the Internet on a wiki
Aphrodite Macbain: Nice to see so many here
Arisia Vita: and one more :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Ari!
Korel Laloix: They came to see you Aph.. smiles
Arisia Vita: greetings all
Bruce Mowbray: Come join us, Danielle. We're a friendly bunch, although I'm not sure we have a "moral compass."
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Ari!
Bruce Mowbray: Good to see you again!
Danielle Restless: Oh?
Danielle Restless: you record everything ?
Zon Kwan: hi Ari
Aphrodite Macbain: I was hoping we could discuss morality and what that means to us.
druth Vlodovic: for certain moral definitions of "friendly"
Matjaz Rives: Are we on?
Korel Laloix: brb
Bruce Mowbray: And certain definitions of "morality" as well, I'll bet.
Aphrodite Macbain:Do we have a moral code that guides our lives and is it the same one we all share?
Bruce Mowbray: anything you say in chat can be deleted later, Danielle - - - you only need to tell Aphrodite.
Aphrodite Macbain: Or is each person's moral code different?
druth Vlodovic: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/Chat_Logs
Bruce Mowbray listens.....
Bruce Mowbray nibbles corn....
Aphrodite Macbain: Do corporations have the same moral code as we do?
Bruce Mowbray dies from laughing....
druth Vlodovic: I hope not, they are scary enough as it is
Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps you could explain your reaction Bruce in more rational terms.....
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Bruce Mowbray: (I hate it when that happens.)
Zon Kwan: calm down Bruce - all is ok
Aphrodite Macbain: all?
Zon Kwan: just calming Bruce
druth Vlodovic: "capitalism" makes a frightening moral code when carried to the extreme, and is not leavened by other codes
Aphrodite Macbain: Isn't there one basic moral code we all share: the golden rule?
Zon Kwan: hmm not exactly
Aphrodite Macbain: with more detailed ones given by such people as Moses?
Bruce Mowbray: Two of my dearest friends in real life are waging a campaign against raising agricultural meat for human consumption. They feel this is a very noble and moral enterprise, on their part.
Aphrodite Macbain: what is the moral basis for their campaign?
Bruce Mowbray: They love animals, empathize with animals, empathize with the pain that factory production of animals for human consumption involves.... need I say more?
Wol Euler: evening all!
Wol Euler: happy labour day
Zon Kwan: hi Wol:)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Wol

Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Wol!
druth Vlodovic: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3105#comic
Aphrodite Macbain: so it is not about healthy eating...but about caring for other sentient beings Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: For them, it works on many levels. . . . But dietary issues are also relevant.
Aphrodite Macbain: we are discussing the foundations of morality Wol
Wol Euler: oh, that is a small and uncontroversial topic
druth Vlodovic: "meat is murder but veganism is genocide" :-P
druth Vlodovic: lol, nothing is small or uncontroversial to everybody wol
Wol Euler: my point, lol
Bruce Mowbray: Actually my point is not about vegetarianism . . . It is about moral causes.
druth Vlodovic: my daughter is a vegetarian for the same reason, but is among friends whose morality is "live and let live" which means many of her friends are not
Aphrodite Macbain: *Looking at druth's link: I'm not sure why "vegetarianism is genocide...")
Bruce Mowbray: So, freedom of individual choice is a higher moral wrong on the ladder?
druth Vlodovic: of course, to many "live and let live" is the height of immorality
Aphrodite Macbain: good question Bruce
druth Vlodovic: the link I sent is to a comic that shows where I got that
Bruce Mowbray looks at druth's link.
druth Vlodovic: basically if everyone stopped eating meat then any animals kept purely for being meat will be allowed to die out
Aphrodite Macbain: is this a moral decision or a practical one?
druth Vlodovic: when I was a Christian I was very much aware that "live and let live" meant sending many people to hell
Wol Euler raises an eyebrow.
Aphrodite Macbain: Is it easier to be guided by moral absolutes?
Wol Euler: could you explain that, please?
Aphrodite Macbain: yes please Druth
druth Vlodovic: if you don't convert them they stay estranged from god and don't achieve heaven
Wol Euler: why is that "sending"?
Wol Euler: why is that your action?
Wol Euler: I thought God gave people free will ...
druth Vlodovic: we are our brother's keeper :)
Wol Euler: I'm sorry, I seem to be in a combative mood tonight, I'll give myself a timeout
druth Vlodovic: secular xtianity doesn't stand up to much scrutiny
Bruce Mowbray: your questions are excellent, Wol.
druth Vlodovic: you get one (timeout) in 7 minutes :)
Zon Kwan: why is killing vegetables more moral?
druth Vlodovic: but "allowing human to come to harm" is only one step up from "harming a human being"
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Xir!
Zon Kwan: hi Xir
Xirana Oximoxi: hello Bruce! hello everyone! :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Xiri
Xirana Oximoxi: hi Aph! :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Do we take responsibility for the souls of others?
Zon Kwan: nope
druth Vlodovic: if you love them how can you avoid it?
Zon Kwan: all have free will
Aphrodite Macbain: maybe some do
Aphrodite Macbain: I am getting weird typing lag. I'll relog
Bruce Mowbray: I definitely do not take any responsibility for anyone else's soul --- whatever that might mean.
Zon Kwan: are we allowed to guide others?
druth Vlodovic: if I see someone walking into traffic, do I not have a moral obligation to attempt to stop them?
Wol Euler: yes, but traffic is real
Wol Euler: heaven is your supposition
Wol Euler bites tongue and sits on hands again
Zon Kwan: do i have a moral obligation to convince others from my moral?
druth Vlodovic: but "real" is a matter of belief, if I do not believe in souls, heaven and hell, then I cannot be certain styles of Christian; it is a package deal
Bruce Mowbray: My typist walked across the Golden Gate Bridge 21 times when he lived in Berkeley..... After debating with himself about whether he would attempt to stop someone in an act of suicide on the bridge, he decided he would leave it to impulse... Fortunately, he never had to resolve the issue.
Bruce Mowbray: Impulse is what would cause me to pull someone away from traffic - I feel... not really a moral judgment.
Zon Kwan: nods
druth Vlodovic: isn't it?
Bruce Mowbray: At some deep, interior, perhaps hardwired level... there is an urge for species survival.... and I would probably pull a human out of the traffic before I would pull, let's say a stray dog (?)
Zon Kwan: morality depends on society and its level of development
druth Vlodovic: or direction of development
Zon Kwan: and what is a good way to treat others
Bruce Mowbray: Agrees with Zon --- but there are levels. . .
Bruce Mowbray: Wonders where Aphrodite got to and what mischief she might be up to while she has us contemplating morality.
Zon Kwan: lol
Zon Kwan: then there is inner feeling of what is right
Zon Kwan: which might be contrary to morals of society
Bruce Mowbray: another example if I might?
Zon Kwan: in Germany during 2nd world war
Zon Kwan: society had a morality which we might not agree with
druth Vlodovic: some Hari Krishnas believe that the name resonates with the human soul, and hearing it causes an innate reaction
druth Vlodovic: Aph is using the discussion to distract us while she robs our houses, she says Bruce has nice stuff
druth Vlodovic: err, she (in a text message) says "lag and login problems"
Bruce Mowbray: I recently dropped out of the Quaker group (my typist did) because although I agree totally with the values of the members of the group, I disagree so profoundly with how those values are being espoused that I felt a moral obligation to distance myself from their style of Christianity and literal Buddhism, and even into Quaker meetings. So sad.
Zon Kwan: nods
Bruce Mowbray throws out corncobs and tucks away valuables . . . ( the few that there might be) so Aphrodite can't find them.
druth Vlodovic: which raises the moral question of, "is it better to promote the good local chapter, and inadvertently the church as a whole, or reject the good along with the bad?"
Korel Laloix: What does Fundamentalist actually mean as a word?
Zon Kwan: blind belief
druth Vlodovic: it must have worked Bruce
Arisia Vita: wb Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: whew, thanks
Bruce Mowbray: To me fundamentalism means a style of delivery -- an insistence that other people see it your way, and if they do not see it your way than they are wrong wrong wrong! that happens everywhere -- in every tradition, every religion, every political system....
Korel Laloix: Interesting, not the impression I get of the word, but my English can be off.
Bruce Mowbray: It is the opposite of tolerance.
druth Vlodovic: as I understand it, it means to reject the natural drift which a belief system has taken and rely only on its "original" documents
Zon Kwan: share my mental pictures or go to hell
Bruce Mowbray: The word has several meanings, actually.... I have refined my own for use in personal circumstances
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Zon!
Wol Euler: the practical meaning IMHO is "I am right, you are wrong, and I am permitted to use force to rectify your mistake"
Aphrodite Macbain: but is that a moral position Wol?
Bruce Mowbray: Agrees with Wol --- And feels that that attitude is immoral.
Wol Euler: absolutely, aph
druth Vlodovic: the problem is that often the "origin" of a belief system which is not developed over time tends to be a reaction against other things current in the society of the originator
Wol Euler: they are absolutely convinced of their *superior* morality
Aphrodite Macbain: So there is a logical and moral justification for using force?

Fundamentalism- one definition:  a form of a religion that upholds belief in the strict, literal interpretation of scripture

druth Vlodovic: so the origin of a belief system tends to be either completely philosophical or rather forceful and simplified
Aphrodite Macbain: It can't just be because they say so
Wol Euler: fundamentalists do believe that they are justified in using force to impose their superior morality on the world, yes
Bruce Mowbray: There can be a logical "moral justification" for doing anything! Remember when John Calvin took over Geneva, Switzerland, in the name of Christ - he burned Servetus at the stake in the city square..... and called that morally justified.
Bruce Mowbray: Simply because Servetus believed in one God --- not in the so-called Trinity.
Bruce Mowbray: So there is an example of moral justification.
Aphrodite Macbain: but what do they use as their justification for using force rather than more, um, diplomatic means?
Zon Kwan: must run, waves
Korel Laloix: Wish I could chat more in this, but have to get back to RL. Ciao
Arisia Vita: bye Zon
druth Vlodovic: bye zon
Bruce Mowbray: bye for now, Kori!
Aphrodite Macbain: bye Kori
Xirana Oximoxi: bye Kori! :)
Bruce Mowbray: bye for now, Zon!
Aphrodite Macbain: bye Zon

Wol Euler: bye korel
Aphrodite Macbain thinks about Savonarola burning books in Florence -the bonfire of vanities
druth Vlodovic: many xtians (and likely any Abrahamics or even others) see any deviation from their version of the religion as a purposeful rejection of God, which is a form of violence against a being who is owed unending reverence and awe
Bruce Mowbray: Some feel that force is justified by there being counter forces.... This is what makes Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and perhaps many others like Mandela . . . such powerful icons and examples.
Aphrodite Macbain: I feel that a lot of so-called decisions based on moral precepts are really personal and irrational as they try and justify immoral acts
Aphrodite Macbain: nods at Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: nods, and listens for more.
druth Vlodovic: religion trains the emotions and the decisions spring from the emotions
Bruce Mowbray: Aphrodite, what then is an "immoral act" in your opinion?
Aphrodite Macbain: corporations do it all the time...teaching the world to sing by giving them bad teeth (Coke)
Bruce Mowbray: Or teaching them to pack their arteries with cholesterol by having a Ronald McDonald sell kiddies the grease?
Bruce Mowbray: immorality happens.
Aphrodite Macbain: For me, an immoral act is harm to others - going against fundamental social and personal values, acts that do not consider sentient beings and their well being
 

Bruce Mowbray: Here's a challenge to bounce off your own sense of inner morality as well as the things Aphrodite and others have said --- suppose I could give you a $300 copy of Dragon Naturally Speaking's latest version . . . And then you could type as fast as I can, simply by dictating into a microphone. Would you be interested in the offer? would you still be interested if you realized it was a pirated version?
Bruce Mowbray: (This is a hypothetical question, by the way.)
druth Vlodovic: aww
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Xirana Oximoxi: :)

Aphrodite Macbain: what did you think of my last answer?

Wol Euler: aph, that sounds reasonable
Wol Euler: tricky question. I know offices that use entirely pirated software from front to back
Wol Euler: not ours, of course *cough*
Bruce Mowbray: nods.
Bruce Mowbray: So then there's another question . . . If using pirated software is the norm in private offices, does that make it moral?
Bruce Mowbray: Or would that contradict what Aphrodite says defines morality itself.
Wol Euler: bruce, no.
Bruce Mowbray: Social norms and customs...
druth Vlodovic: the question is "who is harmed?" the people who fail to get the $300 for their program, or those who need the program and can't afford it?
Bruce Mowbray: Sorry - social VALUES -- do what I value not what I do....
druth Vlodovic: do we judge by total harm, or do we have to choose whose harm is more important by interpreting a series of "rights"?
Wol Euler: if it were a $300 electric drill, would stealing it be as acceptable as pirating software?
Bruce Mowbray: Excellent question, Wol!
Bruce Mowbray: Part of what led me to ask the question about the Dragon was the notion that virtually anything can be justified by our value systems.
druth Vlodovic: what if the hardware store told you that you were buying only the rights to use the drill, and were not allowed to trade or sell it?
Bruce Mowbray: You mean, like renting it?
druth Vlodovic: renting for the price of buying
Bruce Mowbray: There are tool rental libraries in Berkeley. . . You can rent virtually any tool.
druth Vlodovic: typically when you buy a program you are told you are buying it but not allowed to sell it
Bruce Mowbray: nods, like buying a book . . . You can't just reproduce it and sell it on the street corner.
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder if that has to do with ethics rather than morality. Or is ethics the same thing?
Bruce Mowbray: Or maybe a CD or DVD. . . Would be better examples.
Wol Euler: right, because the companies cannot prevent it being copied.
Wol Euler: that is the difference, and the problem
Bruce Mowbray: nods.

Aphrodite Macbain: I think it would be ethical and immoral: you would be 1) lying 2) deceiving
Arisia Vita: but you can tell the story verbally on the street corner and charge for the telling?
Bruce Mowbray: So, since copyright laws are ineffective in these matters, we turn to our individual inner compasses for moral direction.
Bruce Mowbray: And they are shaped by.....?
Aphrodite Macbain: It needs a certain amount of willingness to understand and agree with the implications of going against copyright
Aphrodite Macbain: and a bit of imagination
Bruce Mowbray: I did some research on the origin of the term "moral compass" -- and it seems to have come about when there was an idea of one true GOOD -- like one true North -- that the compass could point to. That obviously is no longer the case.
Aphrodite Macbain: right
Bruce Mowbray: I think this ambivalence is one of the things that drives the certitude of fundamentalism.
Aphrodite Macbain: but each person has his OWN definition of good and therefore her compass is designed for her use only?
druth Vlodovic: which brings us to Ayn Rand lol
Aphrodite Macbain: a question is: Is morality naturally developed or socially constructed?
Aphrodite Macbain: Are we hardwired to care for others?
Aphrodite Macbain: as well as designed to survive?
Xirana Oximoxi: socially constructed... the proof is that not every culture has the same morality and same rules
Aphrodite Macbain: Each society has a set of ethics or morals depending on its history
Aphrodite Macbain: nods at Xiri
Bruce Mowbray: I would say that the impulse that causes me to pull someone back from jumping off a bridge -- with no forethought whatsoever in my action -- I'd say that would be innate. . .
Wol Euler:yes but
Arisia Vita: do parents innately care for their children? and is it just that "moral" people see the whole world as their children?
Aphrodite Macbain: But I suppose it might have something to do with empathy
Bruce Mowbray: but Xir has a good point.
Aphrodite Macbain: If I empathize with others, I will try and do good because of it
Wol Euler: I do not believe there is any culture anywhere on earth in which people would idly sit by and watch a small child be run down by a car (or yak, or whatever) and feel themselves to be good persons for doing so.
Aphrodite Macbain: but our society may also tell us what actions are appropriate
Bruce Mowbray: agrees with Wol. . . . And calls that impulse "innate."
Aphrodite Macbain: I agree Wol
Wol Euler: (a nearby small child, I mean, one whom they could personally save by standing up and moving a few feet)
druth Vlodovic: not long ago infanticide wasn't considered immoral, and it took a lot of effort for the government to get police to charge and prosecute people with the offense

Xirana Oximoxi: yes...I was surprised by it, druth, I learned about it at Adam's exhibit...
Aphrodite Macbain: unless there is something to be gained by allowing it to die...
Aphrodite Macbain thinks about child warriors in the Congo and the easy expendability of human life there.
Bruce Mowbray: The monsters of genocide during the 30s and 40s learned a lot of their "values" from the eugenics movement in the United States . . . During which mentally retarded children were sterilized. . . . And this was considered both moral and right

Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Bruce Mowbray: Infanticide was very common in ancient Greece. And throughout the Hellenistic world as well.
Wol Euler: hence the "yes but" earlier :)
Aphrodite Macbain: yes - there was a "higher" value placed on Aryan cleansing
druth Vlodovic: of course there are fairy tales of a king regretfully exiling his queen for the same offense, so i guess it is one of the questions that comes around in cycles
Wol Euler: it's so easy to mark off certain other people as "not really human", and when you do that then you can indeed sit idly by and watch as they are killed.
Bruce Mowbray: nods.
druth Vlodovic: I have a hard time with people who can do that to cats and other things that aren't human
Bruce Mowbray: again, agrees with Wol's excellent point.
druth Vlodovic: I have observed children having natural empathy, and having to be taught it
Bruce Mowbray: if you have read John Steinbeck's "Of mice and men" then you know that out of love and compassion one man kills another. My feeling is that this was a highly moral act, and also an enormous sacrifice on the part of the man who pulled the trigger.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- I do believe we grow up with a natural empathy for others - but somehow social pressure can squash that feeling
Aphrodite Macbain: and can lead to many emotional problems. Like PTSD for soldiers who were ordered to do things that went against their moral beliefs
Bruce Mowbray: Indeed, Aph.
Bruce Mowbray: But you realize how long it took for the American government to recognize PTSD?
Bruce Mowbray: It didn't even exist during the Vietnam War!
Bruce Mowbray: Or any wars before that.
Aphrodite Macbain: I think Freud based some of his thinking about this in his book "Civilization and its Discontents"
Wol Euler: soldiers were shot by firing squad during WW1 for PTSD, it was called "malingering" then or "shell shock"
druth Vlodovic: well, some of its expressions have only recently become immoral, rather than simply dangerous
Bruce Mowbray: ahhh!
Wol Euler: yep
Aphrodite Macbain: It seems spciety realizes this long after the act has been committed. Why is that?
Bruce Mowbray: In order to have civilization, according to Freud, enormous instinctual energies must be contained and sublimated.
Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps when fighting, one has to shelve one's values...
Bruce Mowbray: I suspect that Freud did not think we were basically good animals....
Wol Euler: oh no, he had a very pessimistic view of human nature :)
Bruce Mowbray: nods.
druth Vlodovic: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=1601#comic
Aphrodite Macbain: He did feel that we had a desire for life and an innate care for others- gained during the first 3 yrs of life. A psychopath is created when it cannot feel the pain of others
Aphrodite Macbain: empathy is hard wired in our brains
Aphrodite Macbain: unless we are mistreated
Aphrodite Macbain: very early on
Bruce Mowbray: On the other hand, some of his successors - like Jung and Horney -- emphasized more positive archetypes: love, power, freedom expressed in nondestructive or hostile ways... yes, Aph, I totally agree that empathy is to some extent hardwired . . . But in my own case it is also the product of education and experience....
druth Vlodovic: I wonder, if he didn't also have many pessimistic ideas would he have gained fame?
Bruce Mowbray: I would never have had empathy for adults with mental retardation or for prisoners doing life sentences unless I had lived among them literally for years.
Bruce Mowbray: (un- empathetically slaps his Dragon.)
Bruce Mowbray: Slaps it again.
druth Vlodovic: $300 down the drain
Bruce Mowbray: yeppers.
Aphrodite Macbain: be gentle with your dragon Bruce. It may have feelings too
Xirana Oximoxi: I go now... take care all :)
druth Vlodovic: have fun xir
Arisia Vita: bye xiri
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Xiri

Wol Euler: bye xir, take care
Xirana Oximoxi: bye :)
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Xir. Sleep well.
Bruce Mowbray: Now there is an excellent point: I would use a pirated program on approval . . . But then, if I really like the program, I buy it!
Bruce Mowbray: So the Pirates to a service to the software sellers . . .
Arisia Vita: actually, rl is calling to me as well so I will bid you all adieu
Arisia Vita: it was great being with you
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Ari- glad you came
Wol Euler: bye ari, take care
Arisia Vita: hope to see you again soon
druth Vlodovic: bye ari
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now, Ari!
Bruce Mowbray: They give me an opportunity to try the program on approval, and if I really really like it -- as with Visual Basic 6 or Dragon Naturally Speaking, I will shell out the money out and buy it eagerly.
Aphrodite Macbain: sounds ethical and moral Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: why would it not be?
Wol Euler: I've bought some 800 songs on iTunes, ALL because I heard them previously on the internet, i.e. "pirated". I would not have bought them without hearing them first.
Bruce Mowbray: there's also something else about this....
Aphrodite Macbain: You mean you were the one who pirated them Wol?

Wol Euler: no, aph, I mean that I heard them because somebody had posted them there for me to hear
Bruce Mowbray: It's kind of hard to put my finger on it.....
druth Vlodovic: technically those aren't your songs, according to unreliable sources if they hear of you pirating songs they can retract your ownership of them, making pirated songs more ethical
Bruce Mowbray: But it seems important to be "seen" as being moral and my choices. . . And yet so much of what the society would call moral I attempt to distance myself from.
Aphrodite Macbain: There seem to be layers and layers of ethical decision-making acts
Bruce Mowbray: nods, The availability of a song or of software -- or even of a movie - - so that we can taste it, figure out whether we really like it and want to own it. . . . and then if we really do like it, we can buy it! so the pirates did us AND the industry a favor!
Bruce Mowbray: but that still doesn't make their behavior ( the pirates behavior) moral, does it?

Wol Euler: nope :) but it does suggest that the situation is more nuanced than the record companies would have us believe

Aphrodite Macbain: Pragmatism seems to dictate so many of our decisions. I suppose if I were a fundamentalist I wouldn't listen to any pirated material. This is where the moral compass metaphor is useful. The more our compass moves off the mark, the less moral we are.
Bruce Mowbray: nods, good point, Aph.
Aphrodite Macbain: nuanced is a good word for fuzziness
Bruce Mowbray: "Nuance," by the way, is the corporation that makes Dragon NaturallySpeaking.
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: in other words don't expect it to be perfectly moral!
Bruce Mowbray: and then there's the whole slippery slope issue.... once you get started stealing, where does it end?
Wol Euler: to continue this example, I see no difference between listening to a song on YouTube and listening to it on the radio. In both cases, if I dislike it, I do nothing, and if I like it, I buy it.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, drawing the line. How do we know when and where?
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps this is why we have jails and prisons and courts of justice -- or so-called justice. . . There are some people who simply cannot make moral judgments from within. They need external influence, pressure, and consequence.
Aphrodite Macbain: Are listening and buying different moral decisions?
Aphrodite Macbain: nods at Bruce
Wol Euler: listening once, and taking a copy for my own use at home to listen repeatedly are IMO very different moral decisions, aph
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Wol Euler: IMO YMMV
Bruce Mowbray: We ALL need external education, and perhaps influence, -- but then those of us who call ourselves "adults" feel that we make our own moral judgments. . . Actually, I'm a little less clear on this whole thing than I was an hour ago.
Aphrodite Macbain: the more you do it the worse it is?
Bruce Mowbray: No.... I mean that there are more influential factors going on than I had previously thought....
Aphrodite Macbain: I see, right
Bruce Mowbray: Both inward and outward.....
Aphrodite Macbain: the more you do it the worse it is? -directed at Wol
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps this is why my typist relishes the notion of having several personalities.... ( oh, sorry didn't realize it was directed at Wol.)
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Wol Euler: yes, I heard, I was considering. It's not a clear-cut answer suitable for all dilemmas and all persons, which will upset you Aph :) but for me in this case: yes.
Aphrodite Macbain feels quite equanamous and is not at all upset
Bruce Mowbray: ! ;-)
Bruce Mowbray Loves equanimity.
Bruce Mowbray: Also loves to scrape up supper.... and guess what time it is!
Aphrodite Macbain: I have no clear cut answers either. I am interested in different points of view and want to really understand them. Hence my tiresome persistence
Bruce Mowbray: Time to scrape! the corn on the cob was not enough
druth Vlodovic: it'd be wrong for us to keep you from your food
Wol Euler: yes, and halfway to midnight here, I should move on too
Bruce Mowbray: Thank you, Aph, and everyone, for breathing a little life into our sessions at the Pavilion.
Wol Euler: goodnight all, happy resolving of moral dilemmas
Aphrodite Macbain: bon appetit Bruce. I'm glad you're feeling better
druth Vlodovic: 'night all
Bruce Mowbray: TY!
Aphrodite Macbain: byee
Bruce Mowbray: Actually I think my fever yesterday -- or was it the day before - - may have been due to hayfever rather than to an infection.
Aphrodite Macbain: wonder why you had a fever though...
Bruce Mowbray: So this is turning me toward a different direction. . . .
Aphrodite Macbain: oh?
Bruce Mowbray: Well I thought it was an infection -- I mean I had 101° fever.
Bruce Mowbray: But then today I thought to myself, gosh this feels just like I feel during hay fever season...
Aphrodite Macbain: sounds like a fever to me. yr body was fighting something
Bruce Mowbray: And then I went out for a walk and saw all of that ragweed growing,
Bruce Mowbray: And I took a hay fever pill, and right away I felt better!
Bruce Mowbray: So now I'm thinking maybe it wasn't an infection after all.
Aphrodite Macbain: wonderful
Bruce Mowbray: Yes!
Bruce Mowbray: Thank you so much.
Aphrodite Macbain: It's nice to have a clear answer to something :-)
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now good people!
Aphrodite Macbain: bye Bruce
druth Vlodovic: a lot of diseases and conditions have symptoms oddly similar to an activated immune system

druth Vlodovic: shall we off?