2016.03.21 13:00 - TSK: All That From a Mountain!

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal.

                                      photo by Bleu, taken at Riddle's 'mountain' skybox

Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: I haven't had any time for TSK at all :) just here to listen and rest a bit :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) I've not gotten as into it as I'd like yet...
Eliza Madrigal: but have been taking bits of time
Eliza Madrigal: 15 or 20 minutes here and there
Eliza Madrigal: actually helpful for not letting stresses cluster :)
Eliza Madrigal: "grazing on space" - just that phrase.... find it so calming
Catrinamonblue Resident: I should try :)
Eliza Madrigal: no need to read the chapter or anything, dessert first :)))

Eliza Madrigal: Aloha Sir Riddle
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Riddle :)
Riddle Sideways: hi ho
Eliza Madrigal grins
Riddle Sideways: is this where supposed to Be?
Eliza Madrigal: this is where we seem to be
Eliza Madrigal: Enjoyed 'your' space this morning....
Riddle Sideways: good
Riddle Sideways: want it used
Eliza Madrigal: neat too, with SL controls, to play around Giant Body

Riddle Sideways: now somebody has a wooden platform up there
Eliza Madrigal: oh?
Riddle Sideways: didn't see it until a different viewer with longer display range
Riddle Sideways: somebody on the next sim over
Eliza Madrigal: I didn't see it...have settings set for "only what I want to see" lol
Riddle Sideways: good
Riddle Sideways: how can that be set in RL
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Riddle Sideways: oh never mind, it already is set
Catrinamonblue Resident: brb
Eliza Madrigal: have been tweaking that program since birth

Riddle Sideways: Sir Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: Sir Bruce the goodhearted!
Eliza Madrigal: top of the day to you
Bruce Mowbray: Hello!
Riddle Sideways: the Count of Brucedom
Bruce Mowbray: and also to you!
Eliza Madrigal: :)))
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, aggers.
Riddle Sideways: hi Tura
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Tura!
Riddle Sideways: nice entrance Aggers
Agatha Macbeth: Evening all
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aggers :) still in gorgeous gown
Riddle Sideways: a flurry of feathers
Tura Brezoianu: hi all
Agatha Macbeth: Kewt, no?
Eliza Madrigal: quite
Riddle Sideways: yes

Eliza Madrigal: Tura is clever...wore waterproof boots
Riddle Sideways: darn, had to miss the proformances
Riddle Sideways: is there going to be reruns?
Agatha Macbeth: The performances were wonderful

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: was very fun
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe they'll do it again at a later date
Bruce Mowbray: There won't be re-runs.
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Wol.
Eliza Madrigal: Hiya Wol :))
Agatha Macbeth: Wollie :)
Wol Euler: evening all
Agatha Macbeth: Listening to anything good?
Riddle Sideways: [time zonegreeting] Qol
Wol Euler: birdsong
Riddle Sideways: Qol
Riddle Sideways: Wol
Wol Euler smiles.
Riddle Sideways: drrrrat
Eliza Madrigal: something tells me I'm in fr something goood....
Wol Euler: Qol is my aztec cousin
Agatha Macbeth: Shame you missed it last night
Eliza Madrigal: Was the crew pleased Bruce, enough to have more shows there?
Agatha Macbeth: It was fun
Wol Euler: yes that was unfortunate
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, we were very pleased with the audience.
Bruce Mowbray: Both performances had about two dozen people.
Eliza Madrigal: we're a fun lot
Bruce Mowbray nods, agrees.
Catrinamonblue Resident: back :) hi everyone who just came :)
Agatha Macbeth: Long time since we had a crowd like that hereabouts
Bruce Mowbray: away from keyboard for a sec....
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Cat

Eliza Madrigal: Won't delay too long in asking how everyone is doing with their mountain exploration...
Eliza Madrigal: feedback? helpful hints?
Agatha Macbeth wonders if Brucie is doing a mountie exploration
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Raff
Eliza Madrigal: was saying to Cat, sometimes all one can do is grab 15-20 minutes here and there
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Raffi :)
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Raffi.
Wol Euler nods.
Riddle Sideways: got "nothin' but Blue skies, oh oh Blue skies"
Agatha Macbeth: Bleuji :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hey, Bleu :)
Bleu Oleander: hi all :)

Wol Euler: very few people reading that book will have been in a position to spend five hours a day for several weeks on the exercise
Eliza Madrigal: even for retreaters it seems a lot
Wol Euler nods.
Agatha Macbeth: Do they do TSK retreats?
Riddle Sideways: is easy... give up sleeping all those hours :)
Eliza Madrigal: probably have... have done summer schools
 

Wol

Wol Euler: my mountain on Sunday was the formal front steps of a natural history museum, on a hillside overlooking a bend in the local river
Eliza Madrigal: :) Riddle
Agatha Macbeth: Oh my
Bruce Mowbray: ahhh, beautiful, Wol.
Eliza Madrigal: that sounds perfect Wol
Wol Euler: it worked well enough
Wol Euler: had all the right attributes
Wol Euler: lots of sky
Wol Euler: great view
Wol Euler: fresh breeze
Wol Euler: distant sounds vaguely heard
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: so some sense of getting 'away from it all' ?
Wol Euler: right in the middle of the city, half an hour's walk from the main train station
Eliza Madrigal: treasure spot, nice discovery

Wol Euler: pity Mick isn't here yet, he found a mountain too, and posted it on facebook
Bleu Oleander: hi Mick
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick :)
Wol Euler: aha!
Mickorod Renard: Hiya
Eliza Madrigal: lol
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Mick :)
Mickorod Renard: HI all
Mickorod Renard: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Mick can you share your photo? we don't have to post it...
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Mick.
Mickorod Renard: erk
Mickorod Renard: its on my phone
Bleu Oleander: :)
Mickorod Renard: but if anyone has it please do
Mickorod Renard: I will have a look now
Eliza Madrigal: Okay, tell us about your space and I can share it with your permission
Mickorod Renard: ah ok
Wol Euler: I#m getting it, just a sec

Mick

Mickorod Renard: well, i have a closer hill here which also was an ancient hill fort ..like iron age
Mickorod Renard: but havnt got up it yet
Mickorod Renard: but as it was the equinox yesterday I sneaked over to the rollright stone circle
Mickorod Renard: with my grand child
Bruce Mowbray: Wow.
Agatha Macbeth: It's today isn't it?
Bruce Mowbray: Wonderful!
Bruce Mowbray: close enough.
Mickorod Renard: he loved it and walked around them stroking each stone as if it were an animal
Bruce Mowbray: amazing.
Agatha Macbeth: Glad they are still there
Eliza Madrigal: wow, nice
Mickorod Renard: the king stone is slightly elevated from the circle and across a road
Agatha Macbeth nods
Riddle Sideways: just love watching wooden boards appear
Agatha Macbeth: Know it well
Mickorod Renard: and the land drops away and one has super panoramic views from here
Mickorod Renard: in fact you can see my hill from it too
Bruce Mowbray: OH MY!
Catrinamonblue Resident: oh wow...........
Bleu Oleander: nice photo!
Agatha Macbeth: Do the witches still meet there? :p
Mickorod Renard: so when I go there I often sit on this stone , which is just a stone,,and chat or contemplate
Bruce Mowbray: "Just a stone"??
Mickorod Renard: yes, and there were rings of flowers laid on the ground yesterday
Wol Euler: aha!
Agatha Macbeth: Not surprising

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: oh my!
Eliza Madrigal: precious
Eliza Madrigal: old and new
Mickorod Renard: the stones are lovely..and there is also a little group called the whispering knights too
Bruce Mowbray: No wonder your grandson petted the stones.
Mickorod Renard: for sure
Wol Euler nods.
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Mickorod Renard: unfortunately I was not alone and was not up for meditation
Bruce Mowbray: But you can return!
Riddle Sideways: thick clouds too
Eliza Madrigal: looking through his eyes is a kind of meditation?
Mickorod Renard: so cannot offer great thoughts
Agatha Macbeth: Might have been interesting if you had

Mickorod Renard: yes, the hill closer to me is actually more suitable
Mickorod Renard: and twas rumoured the one that Tolkien sat on and used in some of his stories
Wol Euler smiles.
Mickorod Renard: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Agatha Macbeth: He got about
Mickorod Renard: he did
Mickorod Renard: done
Eliza Madrigal: thanks for sharing this Mick. I always wonder about how writers especially, are affected by their surroundings... whether old cities or open fields, etc
Mickorod Renard: sorry about my furry hat btw
Eliza Madrigal: :) why sorry
Bleu Oleander: :)
Mickorod Renard: he he
Wol Euler: as long as it isn't real fur
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Mickorod Renard: noooo
Riddle Sideways: oh my

Eliza Madrigal: anyone else having luck or trouble?
Mickorod Renard: but there was a great sense of space and I wonder whether these sites are chosen
Eliza Madrigal: chosen?
Bruce Mowbray: "High energy center" Mick?
Mickorod Renard: as in, for their spacious feeling
Mickorod Renard: yes
Eliza Madrigal: ah, nods
Wol Euler: I believe so, Mick, I believe that over the centuries people notice their qualities
Eliza Madrigal: openings
Wol Euler: it isn't by chance that the museum was built right there
Bruce Mowbray: Dharma Gates?
Wol Euler: consider the number of church towers set on hilltops
Mickorod Renard: yes, and at water sources
Wol Euler: exactly
Bleu Oleander: number of folks building their homes on top of mountains
Bruce Mowbray: So, the cathedral on the hill is a refuge in more ways than one... also a fortress for the entire community, as with Chartres.
Eliza Madrigal thinks of Outlander, which many of my friends love
 

Eliza Madrigal: what about the idea of cultivating a continual sort of practice
Bruce Mowbray: I feel that we shouldn't get too literal about the mountain, actually....
Agatha Macbeth: Is that like Highlander, only further away?
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha.
Eliza Madrigal grins a Agatha
Wol Euler: lol
Mickorod Renard: I love this exercise but I desperatley need space in my life to enjoy the moment
Eliza Madrigal: isn't it a good excuse Mick?
Mickorod Renard: and I bet we all struggle with this
Eliza Madrigal: "I have homework"
Mickorod Renard: yes it is
Agatha Macbeth: The cat ate mine
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: yummy :)
Agatha Macbeth: Not you Cat
Bruce Mowbray: The cat ate your mountain?
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: grazing on space
Agatha Macbeth: Well she sat on a mat
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm.
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe a Buddhist cat
Bruce Mowbray: "We can open to a dimension which is not a . . . locatable particular." (p. 97)
Eliza Madrigal: I have sort of an extra challenge, in that I'm not 'allowed' for health, to be in sunlight directly for as long as the exercise asks...

Bruce

Bruce Mowbray: I went to a volcano in Boquete, Panama.
Wol Euler: oho
Bruce Mowbray: (that I visited in 2008).
Eliza Madrigal: visually, Bruce?
Mickorod Renard: cool, or rather hot
Agatha Macbeth: Hope it was dormant
Catrinamonblue Resident: wow
Bruce Mowbray: Well, yes, through photos, but also mindfully.
Bruce Mowbray: (imaginatively.)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Very expansive views.
Bruce Mowbray: a few earth shakes now and then -- but no eruptions.
Bruce Mowbray: [done]

Mickorod Renard: this was an observation I was beginning to notice in myself...I am becoming more able to mindfully travel about to places..much more vividly
Bruce Mowbray: oh yes, totally agrees with Mick on that.
Wol Euler nods.
Mickorod Renard: and pretty well disapear mindfully from the bodily location
Bleu Oleander: is that a good thing?
Eliza Madrigal: not 'come out' so easily?
Mickorod Renard: I dont know,,maybe its early dementia
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :P
Mickorod Renard: :)
Agatha Macbeth ponders 'coming out'
Eliza Madrigal: one thing that is interesting, while in the midst of the exploration, is to consider some of the open pore-ness of the giant body exercises too... and opening one's own pores, cells... grazing with everything

Bruce Mowbray: "Allow the liberating quality of space to grace [your focal settings] with its touch." p. 96
Agatha Macbeth: Rule 96 kid
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Eliza Madrigal: re good and bad, it seems good to me to see where ceilings are? and to play with that?
Agatha Macbeth looks up
Eliza Madrigal: not to choose one way over another but at least taste and see?
Bleu Oleander: seems more a shift in perspective and a playing with embodiment?
Eliza Madrigal nods.... could be...
Riddle Sideways: gingerbread ceilings
Eliza Madrigal: some have been allowed more or less freedoms too, in thought and wandering :)
Bruce Mowbray tastes various ceilings to detect subtle flavors.
Bleu Oleander: yes freedoms
Eliza Madrigal: I know I was raised with a kind of strict sense that someone was monitoring my thoughts...
Eliza Madrigal: so for me I try to push a bit :)
Riddle Sideways: monitoring your thoughts?
Mickorod Renard: I had a girlfriend who said that once
Agatha Macbeth: 0.0
Bruce Mowbray: "God is watching"?
Riddle Sideways: big brother
Eliza Madrigal nods... just a way of discipline...
Eliza Madrigal: exactly Bruce
Riddle Sideways: NSA
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Bleu Oleander: its a great freedom when you realize that no one is monitoring your thoughts ... which may not always be the case :)
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Wol Euler smiles.
Mickorod Renard: I think she was refering to my slow take up to make a move,,,he he ..in my case
Eliza Madrigal: I heard someone from N. Korea say something similar actually... that she's been raised to feel the great leader knew all
Bruce Mowbray ponders god as voyeur.
Eliza Madrigal: so I remind myself not everyone is so limited as me :)
Mickorod Renard: but maybe there is some truth in this Eliza
Mickorod Renard: as our concience is sort of monitoring
Agatha Macbeth: You limited?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Mickorod Renard: which in some way is also linked to some ermm..what is the word,,accountability
Eliza Madrigal nods.... good point Mick... at least when one tunes into things like ethics then they can root reasons for chosen limitations etc...something workable
Eliza Madrigal: not "cause I say so" :)))
Bleu Oleander: just putting a photo of someone's eyes in the room, makes people feel they are being watched :)
Mickorod Renard: yes thats treu
Mickorod Renard: true
Eliza Madrigal: mirror neurons, accountability and imitations
Eliza Madrigal: peer review :)
Eliza Madrigal: peering review? lol
Bleu Oleander: we have evolved to be very sensitive to other's gazes
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps we also share "resonanating energy fields" -- as with Mick's rock.
Eliza Madrigal smiles

Mickorod Renard: I love it when a bus passes and you look up and someone on the bus is looking at you
Wol Euler nods.
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, excellent example, Mick.
Eliza Madrigal nods
Bleu Oleander: do you become more self conscious?
Bruce Mowbray: and also that we sometimes realize we are being observed from behind.
Bruce Mowbray: a sense of being observed.
Riddle Sideways: like SL views
Wol Euler: it has an obvious evolutionary benefit :)
Bruce Mowbray: sort of, yes.
Bruce Mowbray: for sure, wol.
Raffila Millgrove nods. always wondered how we could sense someone watching from behind.
Mickorod Renard: mmmm more self concious,,depends I think on the circmstances
Bleu Oleander: in sl we can set our prefs to show where other's cameras are pointing
Wol Euler: I think we detect *intention* rather than simply the direction of their eyes
Bleu Oleander: to "know" when others are looking at us
Wol Euler: because sitting on a bus or subway train doesn't constantly trigger that
Raffila Millgrove: how do we know? always a puzzle to me.
Wol Euler: indeed, raffi
Wol Euler: or walking into a room and knowing which of the many strangers is the one we are there to meet
Eliza Madrigal nods

Mickorod Renard: well, have we pondered whether the ..us ..is actually in the body?
Mickorod Renard: or is it just the eyes and collecting data bit?
Bleu Oleander: mind body split you mean?
Mickorod Renard: yes I think thats it
Mickorod Renard: I remember chatting to Pema once about that..but it was just brief and a long time ago
Eliza Madrigal: tendency is to think of our bodies as having sort of fixed boundaries... but we mix and mingle - it is one of the central TSK questions I think... mind and world
Bleu Oleander: do you feel that your mind is something apart from your body ?
Wol Euler: yes, eliza
Agatha Macbeth: I don't mind if you don't
Mickorod Renard: I have pondered it,,Bleu
Agatha Macbeth: Does your av feel like she is 'here' or somewhere else?
Bleu Oleander: could the mind survive the death of the body then?
Agatha Macbeth: Probabvly

--BELL--

Agatha Macbeth: Wthout the V
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: if we let go of linear ideas of what it means to survive....
Bleu Oleander: able to walk around and play with your dog :)
Agatha Macbeth: Woof
Mickorod Renard: soory phone
Eliza Madrigal: there is no difference between me and my dog at this point, lol
Wol Euler: perhaps that's what cats are looking at when their heads snap around and they focus on a blank wall
Riddle Sideways: happy birthday, George
Agatha Macbeth: Or they hear mice
Wol Euler: oh hush
Bleu Oleander: hehe
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)) George says bark
Wol Euler barks back.
Agatha Macbeth wags her tail
Eliza Madrigal: see... George is even in SL without knowing he is...
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha!

Bleu Oleander: what is a linear idea of what it means to survive?
Wol Euler: he is certainly as present and as real in our minds right now as if he were in this room
Wol Euler: what is the space that "george" is in when we all think of him?
Bruce Mowbray: a linear idea of survival is a stream of causations, Bleu.
Bleu Oleander: so survive as long as the chain of causations keeps going?
Eliza Madrigal: no life, birth, a life, death, no life
Bleu Oleander: do you think that?
Eliza Madrigal: seems weird when I type that out...not right at all :) but right to all appearance
Catrinamonblue Resident: energy swirls........
Eliza Madrigal laughs at Agatha.... (who rezzed a large dog)
Wol Euler: my, he's grown
Eliza Madrigal: George would be afraid but then roll over to be pet and sniffed
Agatha Macbeth: Noisy bugger too
Eliza Madrigal: brb, carry on :)
Agatha Macbeth: Gave him a bone to keep him happy

Eliza Madrigal: what IS that space, btw (Wol's question). are we sharing mind... like overlapping bubbles....?
Bruce Mowbray: I must bow out now. Thanks everyone. another fascinating discussion. and thanks Mick for that great photo.
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: bye bruce, take care
Eliza Madrigal: ntsy Bruce, waves
Bleu Oleander: bye Bruce
Mickorod Renard: my pleasure
Agatha Macbeth: Aww, bye Bleuji
Catrinamonblue Resident: bye Bruce
Mickorod Renard: by bruce
Raffila Millgrove: bye bruce. tc
Agatha Macbeth: And Brucie
Mickorod Renard: ok back
Raffila Millgrove: oh bye bleu.
Mickorod Renard: bye Bleu
Agatha Macbeth: Hello back
Bleu Oleander: i'm still here :)
Wol Euler: there is a "george" that exists for us all in that moment, we can visualize and analyze his body and behaviour although physically absent
Agatha Macbeth: Yay
Wol Euler smiles.
Agatha Macbeth: I'm sure I have a big white rabbit too somewhere
Eliza Madrigal: we feel physical proximity to one another don't we?
Agatha Macbeth: We do yes

Mickorod Renard: I think the thought I once had was something like what is the purpose of life and I wondered whether it was to experience things for some cetral log of what it is to exist
Wol Euler nods.
Riddle Sideways: yes, feeling the great internal white rabbit
Mickorod Renard: if that makes sense
Agatha Macbeth: 42
Eliza Madrigal: keep going Mick?
Agatha Macbeth: Mice?
Mickorod Renard: and if so,,then we are machines for gathering data
Bleu Oleander: that sounds too linear ... a central log
Mickorod Renard: but the brain or what have you is central to us all
Agatha Macbeth: I'm the ghost in the machine
Bleu Oleander: I'm the machine hehe
Catrinamonblue Resident: do we need a purpose?
Bleu Oleander: I think we make our own?
Eliza Madrigal: I am the walrus...
Mickorod Renard: well..there is some though going about that there may be a common ..thing,,between us all
Bleu Oleander: one thing?
Eliza Madrigal: lol (sorry)...yes I understand Mick.... no doubt we seem to have only partial knowing
Eliza Madrigal: and to need each other
Riddle Sideways: if you want there to be
Eliza Madrigal: and 'standard equipment'
Mickorod Renard: and at one stage I thought that the TSK pointed towards this idea
Eliza Madrigal: I've always liked the idea that we come into 'the world' with an intentional forgetting.... but as poetry I guess I like it, not really a theory :)

Mickorod Renard: I suppose my thoughts are driven by the idea that it will be sad when I die that all my experience is gone
Eliza Madrigal: or make 'the world' out of that forgetting
Wol Euler: "tears in the rain", mick :)
Mickorod Renard: he he
Eliza Madrigal: if the experiences aren't 'yours' but are just experiences, are they less beautiful?
Bleu Oleander: what happens to all that opening up of the mind? poofs away?
Mickorod Renard: yes..it does so it seems
Agatha Macbeth: Perhaps it was open all along, you just didn't notice

Wol Euler: what makes the experience mine? is a beautifully moving description in a book that still resonates with you decades afterwards, "your " experience? and what is the experience?
Catrinamonblue Resident: slips away.. bye all
Eliza Madrigal: that's a good question..... that feeling
Riddle Sideways: by cat
Bleu Oleander waves
Agatha Macbeth: Slip well Cat
Wol Euler: to answer my own question; I think there is no difference between anything remembered, once it's i memory
Mickorod Renard: its a bit like fish in the water and that although the water finnishes at the surface it still is a no go area
Eliza Madrigal: bye Cat :)
Wol Euler: memory of a book is no different from memory of a dream is no different from memory of a physical action
Mickorod Renard: bye cat
Wol Euler: except that the latter might be shared by other people
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes someone passes away and it is only then you begin to know them
Eliza Madrigal: cause you let go of what you needed from them, in some cases, maybe
Raffila Millgrove: interesting.
Wol Euler: perhaps, yes
Bleu Oleander: memory of a physical action might have different aspects tho then a book memory ... like sense memories ... but true that both are memories
Raffila Millgrove: i had talk with friend on this.
Wol Euler: dropping the handle of their "usefulness" shows you the rest of them
Mickorod Renard: I wondered about my father that way..but its just cos he no longer aggrivates me that i can do it
Raffila Millgrove: about... death of close person...like parent. once they are gone.. you cannot expect that they will change or treat you different or apologize etc.. and then.. we think it is easier to.. review parts of life and let things go since you cannot expect change. it's over. it is like a relief and a chance to stop fussing on things.. that can't be fixed.
Eliza Madrigal nods.... thinking just that, Raffi....
Mickorod Renard: yes Raffi
Riddle Sideways: yes
Wol Euler nods.
Eliza Madrigal: if we can imagine it, we might find it easier to do while they are alive
Raffila Millgrove: we think that maybe there is some benefit to aging in that you can stop trying to change things and accept.
Eliza Madrigal: hope so :)
Bleu Oleander: why is changing things if for the better not a good thing?
Raffila Millgrove: we talk about aging.. that there are too many negatives.. we are always happy to find some positigve aspect.
Eliza Madrigal: if you can, Bleu
Bleu Oleander: and why can't you?
Eliza Madrigal: cause they will vote for Trump anyway :P
Eliza Madrigal: sorry, lol
Wol Euler: exactly
Bleu Oleander: :P
Bleu Oleander: maybe not everyone
Mickorod Renard: funny thing is,,when I feel positive,,I think that all things,,good or bad are good cos they have a reason
Bleu Oleander: having some success with a few
Raffila Millgrove: well it's about.. parents.. many long for parents to say to do something.. and they won't be.. changiing. you cannot force them to change.. and if they are dead.. at least you can take that possiblity of change.. off the table. and move along.
Eliza Madrigal nods.... me too...my grandfather for one...amazing arc of change
Bleu Oleander: see?
Eliza Madrigal nods Raffi
Eliza Madrigal: but sometimes someone can be very stuck trying to get something from someone....
Eliza Madrigal: their whole life can be sort of oriented toward that need
Eliza Madrigal: or feeling that they are not enough, etc
Bleu Oleander: well really the only person you should try to change is yourself perhaps
Raffila Millgrove: maybe while they were alive.. you tried and tried and even went to therapy etc.. (as some of my friends did) and ... it wasn't.. successful...... you can't force someone to do what you'd like.. no matter how much they love you etc.. maybe they can't do it.
Mickorod Renard: yes, I got to really like my father once he was gone..but much of that was also to do with me becoming a father and seeing why he was like he was
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal nods...good point Mick
Raffila Millgrove: once they are gone, at least it's over.. that poissiblity of them changing.. is gone.. so maybe you can change or let go etc.
Bleu Oleander: distance adds clarity
Wol Euler nods.
Raffila Millgrove: it frees you to think different, maybe to even understand why they were .. a certain way.
Eliza Madrigal nods.... and not just understand theoretically
Mickorod Renard: yes Raffi, one often hears folks say..all that complaining when they were alive but I would put up with it all if they were back again
Raffila Millgrove nods.
Eliza Madrigal: compassion I think, is visceral... even if it takes years of rational work to make way for it
Bleu Oleander: might even see more of them in yourself
Agatha Macbeth: A gut feeling? :p
Mickorod Renard: looks up visceral
Raffila Millgrove: i personally .. didn't have this problem, but many of my friends did.. they wanted their parents to be different.. to explaint too them.. to apoloogize.. whatever.. they couldn't ever get that .. and now they can let it go.. and think about it diferent.
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Bleu Oleander: I never tried to change my parents
Bleu Oleander: probably on some level realized it was hopeless lol
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes one has to draw a difference, in order to change themselves... and that can be hard
Agatha Macbeth: 'I never tried to change my parents...nobody else would have them' HA
Raffila Millgrove: I did, but when i was older.. i realized.. that was pointless so i got over this.. but many of my friends couldn't do it. their parents wouldn't talk to them or couldn't be the person they wanted..

Mickorod Renard: he he , I have spent several years wondering where I went wrong as a parent,,I treated him so well and loved him so much,,,,today I read an article that loving and caring for your kids can be just as bad as being bad
Eliza Madrigal: I like to tell the kids "well no sense complaining, you chose me"
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Wol Euler smiles.
Eliza Madrigal: "now why do you think you did that?" lol
Wol Euler: "you should have read the fine print"
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
Bleu Oleander: all the disclaimers haha
Raffila Millgrove: there are thing.. you cannot go back and "fix".. it's just.. not going to get fixed.... for some it's hard to accept that. when a person is dead, you pretty much have to accept that it is over and not being fixed.
Eliza Madrigal: precisely
Mickorod Renard: gotta go gfolks
Mickorod Renard: see ya soon x
Wol Euler: bye mick, enjoy the rocks
Eliza Madrigal: okay Mick, glad you were here today
Bleu Oleander: bye Mick
Agatha Macbeth: Rock on Mick
Eliza Madrigal: and that everyone was is here today :)
Raffila Millgrove: bye Mick.
Agatha Macbeth: Don't get too stoned
Raffila Millgrove: bye all.
Bleu Oleander: rock on .... lol
Wol Euler: thank you eliza and all
Eliza Madrigal waves to everyone <3

Riddle Sideways: yes, thank you ALL
Agatha Macbeth: All is grateful
Eliza Madrigal: quite a conversation >whew<
Wol Euler smiles.
Agatha Macbeth: All and everything
Bleu Oleander: all that from a mountain!
Wol Euler: we covered a lot of ground, if not a lot of pages
Agatha Macbeth: Liz has a PaB bum
Eliza Madrigal laughs
Eliza Madrigal: Tura you were so quiet :)))
Bleu Oleander: better set limits on mountain time lol
Tura Brezoianu: yes, didn't really find anything to say
Eliza Madrigal: which is fine, no pressure... but happy you're here and hope you don't hesitate to jump in
Wol Euler nods.
Eliza Madrigal: ah, okay :)
Eliza Madrigal: I intended to be quiet today.... better stop doing that
Agatha Macbeth: What it is to be in the company of nutters
Wol Euler: a silly thing to intend :)
Bleu Oleander: bye y'all
Wol Euler: let george guide you
Eliza Madrigal: :) bye friends <3
Wol Euler: bye for now, my dears <3
Agatha Macbeth: All power to the George
Tura Brezoianu: bye all
Agatha Macbeth: WoW well Wollie
Wol Euler: thankee
Agatha Macbeth: Give those orcs hell
Wol Euler: you'd be welcome to drop in again any time
Agatha Macbeth: Have to get shopping order in