2017.01.16 13:00 - What is meant by Lived Experience?

This was an all guardians session. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cat :)
Eliza Madrigal: Been shopping?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ewan!   
Catrinamonblue Resident: hi :) not shopping just looking in inventory :)
Ewan Bonham: Hi guys!
Eliza Madrigal: it has been a while Ewan, how are things with you?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Ewan Bonham: Things are going well..
Ewan Bonham: Thought I would join you today... as I was free and interested...:)

--BELL--

Mickorod Renard: Hi Ewan and folks
Eliza Madrigal: Nice :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick!
Mickorod Renard: hiya
Eliza Madrigal: Mick, how's your hand?
Aphrodite Macbain: wow
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aph :)
Aphrodite Macbain: lello
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce :)
Mickorod Renard: it seems to be behaving..he he maybe for the first time ever
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Eliza and everyone.
Aphrodite Macbain: also Hello
Mickorod Renard: Hi bruce
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Bruce, Aph, Mick :)
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, good, Mick. Maybe it will be better from now on
Mickorod Renard: yes, just a carpel tunnel op
Aphrodite Macbain: Did you hurt it Mick?
Aphrodite Macbain: ouch
Bruce Mowbray is glad to see Ewan here, and also hopes Mick's hand is healing well.
Mickorod Renard: its just wear and tear I think,,but i do have other injury to the hand that I will have to live with
Mickorod Renard: ty All
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Ewan! GTSY
Ewan Bonham: ㋡
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Tura :))
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Tura.
Tura Brezoianu: hi everyone

:)

Ewan Bonham: Hi everyone... god to be here...:)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Ewan Bonham: *good
Eliza Madrigal: two or three gathered... hehe
Bruce Mowbray ponders Ewan's theological statement...
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: more than 2 or 3 ! :-
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi San
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello San.
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, San!
Aphrodite Macbain pats san on the back
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Raffi
Santoshima Resident: greetings
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Raffi.
Aphrodite Macbain: waves at Raffi
Mickorod Renard: hi san and Raffi
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi san, Raffi :)
Raffila Millgrove waves to all

Eliza Madrigal: I'm not sure what's the best thing for this session but maybe whatever comes to mind, especially concerning the organization of sessions going forward, and things unexpressed so far, etc
Aphrodite Macbain wonders whether San will speak in a cat dialect
Eliza Madrigal: (for today)
Eliza Madrigal: :) Aph,
Mickorod Renard: I personally have refrained from running away with the reading as i didnt want to get ahead
Bruce Mowbray loves white whiskers on black cats.

No Rush

Aphrodite Macbain: I have only one comment to make
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Mickorod Renard listens too
Aphrodite Macbain: that we will need to go very slowly as we squeeze the meaning and implications of Maxine's text
Aphrodite Macbain: It is very dense
Aphrodite Macbain: and probably will need clarification at each paragraph
Ewan Bonham: And that we give us time for different interpretations..
Aphrodite Macbain: but if we aren't in any rush.. I dont see this being a problem
Aphrodite Macbain: done
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Bruce Mowbray: ty, Aph.

Eliza Madrigal: thanks, the focus is meant to be the main one for 2017... so that's a wide scope
Aphrodite Macbain: great
Raffila Millgrove: we will be spending a year on this?
Bruce Mowbray nods again.
Ewan Bonham: Nod
Mickorod Renard: yes, i like the sound of that Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: there's lots to talk about in the book
Eliza Madrigal: if we end earlier than that fine but there are many ways of exploring
Aphrodite Macbain nods
Eliza Madrigal: for instance, even with the references in the preface, there is a lot
Mickorod Renard: mmmmmm
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Bleu Oleander: hi all :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu
Mickorod Renard: Hi Bleu
Eliza Madrigal: my way isn't really to squeeze out meaning... not sure if I 'can' do that, but I can definitely organize enough time

Focus

Mickorod Renard: I often realize I am a bit slow at grasping things..mainly cos i like to feel very sure
Aphrodite Macbain: there are so many interesting ideas to discuss, it would be nice to explore them
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: In Eden's session this morning, we were saying that keeping the main focus on "lived experience" seems especially important too
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Mickorod Renard: yes, that was emphasised in the book
Eliza Madrigal: “Lived Experience” for me means staying in touch as much as possible with the playful, ever-shifting aspects of living which enriches intuition rather than the more fixed ideas which conceptual thought often imposes."  [Maxine]
Ewan Bonham: Yes...personalized
Bleu Oleander: what do you think is a good way to define what is meant by "lived experience"?
Aphrodite Macbain: walking the talk?
Mickorod Renard: not to be drawn too ridgedly by one expert or another into a lockout sort of outcome

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: " In the past several years, my own search as a psychoanalyst has been for ways to understand deeper realities initially inspired by Wilfred Bion's notations about “becoming”: that we cannot approach the deeper aspects of reality by intellectual and verbal means; the ever-present flow of such realities that evade the grasp of thought and conscious observation can only be approached as we can trust in our more primary modes of embodied, lived experience."

Tura Brezoianu: Perhaps "attentive experience", in contrast to "ignored experience".
Mickorod Renard: sorry bell
Eliza Madrigal: This is something Maxine said in an exchange recently, after asked if she'd be able to attend some sessions (last line I posted above), but I really like your definition Mick
Bruce Mowbray: :)

Bleu Oleander: my concept of "lived experience" is a wider one that included intellectual thought and abstract ideas
Aphrodite Macbain listens to Bleu
Eliza Madrigal: "attentive experience" is great too
Bruce Mowbray also listens.
Bleu Oleander: :) was just saying that lived experience contains all experience for me
Aphrodite Macbain: can you give an example, Bleu?
Ewan Bonham: Would it be subjective?
Bleu Oleander: all my experience is lived from my pov
Bruce Mowbray appreciates Bleu's vow not to lobotomize her left brain.
Bleu Oleander: reading a book, swimming, hiking, having a conversation is all part of lived experience for me

Aphrodite Macbain: I realize that I have concepts and beliefs that I have learned from others but I have no real means of testing them out. They stay as concepts only, theories,
Aphrodite Macbain: Theory only, not practise
Bleu Oleander: belief doesn't always have a testing aspect to it
Bleu Oleander: we do test out quite a bit in life tho
Eliza Madrigal: really appreciate when someone is able to describe something in terms of their own life and learning
Aphrodite Macbain: of course
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Bleu Oleander: yes

Aphrodite Macbain: I'm thinking about those beliefs that haven't been tested or enacted
Bleu Oleander: like ...
Aphrodite Macbain: that I hold anyway
Eliza Madrigal: :) picture comes to mind of decluttering I worked on over the weekend. Piles for definitely keep, maybe keep, definitely toss
Aphrodite Macbain: Much of what I am learning from Zen practise
Bruce Mowbray: merely holding a strong belief can alter one's future experience, though. as Sam Harris says, once you pull the lever of a belief, everything changes.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: it freezes it
Bruce Mowbray: it can do that, yes.
Mickorod Renard: good point Bruce
Bleu Oleander: until new beliefs thaw it out
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Bruce Mowbray: if one is open to new beliefs.
Bleu Oleander: key pt bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Mickorod Renard: sometimes they can present as two sides of the same coin..
Bleu Oleander: rest in uncertainty and openness :)

Aphrodite Macbain: how do you mean MIck?
Mickorod Renard: I was meaning that when offered another angle on something both beliefs seem quite plausable
Eliza Madrigal nods
Bruce Mowbray: I am struck by how Maxine's learnings seem fluid, open to discovery, and nonhierarchical.
Eliza Madrigal: "opposite of a great truth..."
Mickorod Renard: beliefs maybe wrong word
Aphrodite Macbain: ah yes good point it isnt always "either or"
Eliza Madrigal: me too Bruce
Ewan Bonham: Yes Bruce. Would inner guidance figure in here?
Eliza Madrigal: I come back to the word integrative
Bruce Mowbray: this feels like Tao.
Raffila Millgrove: one of the signs of a critical thinker is the ability to see value in two different ideas ...and altho they are contradictory....the thinker can see that both could be true. even tho that goes against "logic".
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: It is hard to hold two opposing beliefs as equally strong- this is where "lived experience" may help think about them
Ewan Bonham: Yes, and the lesson may well be in the contemplation of choosing between the alternatives
Bruce Mowbray: the exploration of whole fields of experience and their interactions, rather than philosophical propositions.

Left Hemisphere/Right Hemisphere

Eliza Madrigal: Early on Maxine begins to talk about left hemisphere/right hemisphere, which seems to be an area of study that goes in and out of fashion, but which makes room for intuition (such inner guidance)
Bruce Mowbray: yes, Eliza, that's why I made the comment about lobotomizing. Bleu's refusal to lobotomized her left brain.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Bleu Oleander: seems to be a bit out of fashion currently ... a more nuanced picture is developing
Aphrodite Macbain: I think she says that intuition comes from a base of lived experience rather than knowledge
Bleu Oleander: not sure what you mean about that Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: exactly so, Aph.
Mickorod Renard: I felt warmly comforted in her references to left and right hemis
Bruce Mowbray: Bleu stated that ALL of her experience was lived -- including that of the left brain.
Eliza Madrigal: She writes in a way that opens it up a bit
Aphrodite Macbain: warmly comforted? :-)
Bleu Oleander: actually we form our intuitiom from our experiences and memories
Raffila Millgrove: I think Maxine mention that she is using left and right.. because those terms are useful.. and she knows (I hope) that some science doesn't exactly support a rigid left-right.. but science does have imaging which shows that the activities.....are going on... in those locations. it's a tricky.. slippery slope.
Aphrodite Macbain: exactly
Bruce Mowbray nods and honors the bell.
Mickorod Renard: warmly comforted in that it sort of explains the diversity of humanity in its varying degrees of leaning either right or left
Raffila Millgrove: I am sorry. i didn't have my sounds high enough. fixed it.
Eliza Madrigal: She definitely does not write about it in the sort of way of taking quizzes to see if one 'is' left or right brained, etc :)
Aphrodite Macbain: smiles at Mick
Eliza Madrigal nods Mick

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray ponders if we do our drops in order to escape the tyranny of our left brains and give our right brains a chance to catch up.
Ewan Bonham: It could be just a handy way of becoming aware of the elements of being - thought and feeling..
Raffila Millgrove: right. i think she is using it to make it easier to understand... that different parts of brain are working.. together.. exchanging back and forth--different functions.
Ewan Bonham: The exchange I believe is the lived experience

Bruce Mowbray: Isn't making clear distinctions between left brain and right brain activities also a sort of left brain determination?
Tura Brezoianu: I think it doesn't matter where this or that function is localised in the brain,except to people trying to figure out how the brain physically works. So I take all psychological talk about left and right brains to be primarily a framework for organising ideas. It's talking about two different sorts or styles of mental activity.
Aphrodite Macbain: rather than getting stuck in the complexities of neuroscience, I found the division a handy way of thinking of the different aspects of consciousness.

Santoshima Resident: "drops" to simply experience the embodiment, without judging or commentary. it is useful at some point in the waking life to have moments of not identifying.
Raffila Millgrove: we know now that brain cells can change themselves.. memories can be stored in different parts of brain. brain can be damanged and try to compensate etc etc. newish info that the writers didn't have.. but it doesn't affect.. the basics of what they are theorizing.
Aphrodite Macbain: exactly Tura - that's what I was TRYING to say:-)
Mickorod Renard: like that San
Eliza Madrigal: nice yes
Ewan Bonham: Yes, San
Eliza Madrigal: there is something to the idea of attentive experience ... in a practical sense. There is data gathering and then what happens when data is in play with emotions and circumstances moment to moment. It isn't that data isn't part of our experience but maybe not embodied in the same sense
Bruce Mowbray: Raffi's point about the brain's plasticity is well taken.

Catrinamonblue Resident: slips away sorry...
Aphrodite Macbain: Are you talking about mindfulness Eliza?
Bruce Mowbray ponders "choiceless awareness...."
Eliza Madrigal: bye Cat
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Cat
Santoshima Resident: bye cat
Bruce Mowbray: Byr for now, Cat.
Ewan Bonham: Yes, the journey of being that makes for the lived experience
Mickorod Renard: bye Cat
Bruce Mowbray: Bye.
Tura Brezoianu: bye Cat
Eliza Madrigal: I have not yet come to love the word mindfulness, so I'm not sure :))
Bleu Oleander: I think all of my experience is embodied and emotions are part of it all even rational thought involves emotion
Aphrodite Macbain: :-) being fully aware of what is around us and in us
Ewan Bonham: Yes, the experience of integration
Bruce Mowbray ponders how to embody the Pythagorean theorem.
Mickorod Renard: we change in our thinking from moment to moment too..i think...due to external forces...sat listening to music to being super efficient at work
Bleu Oleander: thought is embodied

The Cookies Experiment

Raffila Millgrove: I can serve you a cookie. two cookie. exactly idential. one on blue plate.. one on pink.. and ask you.. are they the same sweetness.. and you will tell me that the blue plated one is sweeter (or maybe it's the pink.. always get detials mixed) anyho this is research that shows... our senses (in this case visual) trick the brain.. don't report as accurate as we assume.
Aphrodite Macbain: Are you saying that you dont find it useful to separate lived experience from intellectual/rational activity Bleu?
Bleu Oleander: that's right Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: k
Tura Brezoianu: "we drink the label on the bottle" :)
Raffila Millgrove: we are not aware that our sensual experiences.... our data.. is not as reliable.. as we believe.
Bleu Oleander: thinking for me is part of lived experience
Aphrodite Macbain: How would we know the sweetness without tasting Raffi?
Bruce Mowbray: Ahhh, what Raffi just said about the cookies on different colored plates takes relationships into consideration... rather than singular identities.
Santoshima Resident: ty, bruce!
Santoshima Resident: and raffi
Raffila Millgrove: you are tasting aph.
Raffila Millgrove: you taste both my cookies. and one you think is sweeter becuase of the plate color.
Tura Brezoianu thinks/feels the same as Bleu
Santoshima Resident: pls excuse me ... needing to go ~ bfn
Eliza Madrigal: bye San
Aphrodite Macbain: ah - the subjective affecting the objective?
Bleu Oleander: taste is influenced by visual
Bruce Mowbray: bye San-ji!
Mickorod Renard: bye san
Aphrodite Macbain: byee San!
Bleu Oleander: bye San
Aphrodite Macbain: she slunk away
Raffila Millgrove: I can do same think with rufflles potato chip. exact identical.. but if I play certain sounds in your ear.. while you taste them.. you will say one is fresher.
Aphrodite Macbain: we are talking about the accuracy of our senses
Mickorod Renard: I think something like that Aph..is going on all the time
Bleu Oleander: try tasting while holding your nose ... greatly reduces the taste ... same as visual cues can and do
Raffila Millgrove: these sensual tricks.. they are used by big food companies.. to package the food. pay a lot of money for this research.
Bleu Oleander: yep
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Raffila Millgrove: teaches us a lot about the how the brain processes info from the senses of sight, touch, hearing
Eliza Madrigal: yet knowing these things, they are no less effective
Eliza Madrigal: push no fewer buttons
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Tura Brezoianu: I once bit into what I thought was an apple, and it proved to be disgustingly soft. Then I realised it was a peach, and it was delicious.
Mickorod Renard: so maybe this is how the book will be informative?
Bleu Oleander: so much of what drives our actions is influenced by marketing
Raffila Millgrove: how the visual of plate will override our taste sense.. how the sounds.. of ear will override our taste.
Bleu Oleander: :) Tura
Aphrodite Macbain: the so-called rational world?
Mickorod Renard: I did that with a peach but it was paprika

Bruce Mowbray: Are you saying, Raffi, that our choices should not be trusted -- I mean, that I should not trust my own ability to choose?
Raffila Millgrove: well in this case i am glad that the food cos will pay for all this research so that the scientist can find all this stuff out. it at least funds some good pure sceience.
Bruce Mowbray ponders whether any science is "pure."
Aphrodite Macbain: some are more than others
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Raffila Millgrove: I am saying that your senses.. work together.. and they don't always end up being accurate.
Bleu Oleander: we learn by experience to trust certain cues
Bruce Mowbray nods, agrees with Raffi on that.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Bleu Oleander: not a perfect system tho
Aphrodite Macbain: we learn by experience
Raffila Millgrove: taste seems weaker... it is infuenced by both vision andhearing..
Mickorod Renard: do we know who here has read the book already?
Aphrodite Macbain: and a certain amount of memorization
Bruce Mowbray: I've only read the first chapter, Mick.
Bleu Oleander: taste is actually mostly smell
Raffila Millgrove: and we end up with incorrect.. idea.. that one cookie is sweeter or one potato chip is fresher.. when it's not.
Aphrodite Macbain: why do you ask MIck?
Mickorod Renard: tyty Bruce, i am just a little behind you
Bleu Oleander: I'm on my second reading
Aphrodite Macbain is reading too many books at once
Eliza Madrigal: also reading for the second time, but with eyes anew, going much more slowly :)
Mickorod Renard: I was wondering whether those who have read it can provide more guidance to its likely outcome than the initiates
Bleu Oleander: trying to read it at the group's pace and not get ahead too much
Raffila Millgrove: I bring this up because learned experience.. can be subject to error right in our own...senses--brain.. outcome.
Bruce Mowbray is taking too many MOOCs at once.
Tura Brezoianu: I've skimmed the whole thing, am reading the intro bits more closely
Tura Brezoianu: and looking up references etc.
Mickorod Renard: thanks

--BELL--


Eliza Madrigal: I have general knowledge about most of the references she makes, but as I look things up more I see how that feeling of familiarity isn't helpful, so that's one of the main blessings of going through as a group
Mickorod Renard: great Eliza
Aphrodite Macbain: Must go I'm afraid. See you on Thursday
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Aph.
Eliza Madrigal: bye Aph!
Tura Brezoianu: bye Aph
Mickorod Renard: bye Aph

Ewan Bonham: Yes... the group interaction in itself is a lived experience.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: a fun video ... from a neuroscient's perspective ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82tlVcq6E7A
Bruce Mowbray: It sure is, Ewan.
Bleu Oleander: bye Aph
Mickorod Renard: I was worried I may be the blind leading the enlightened..even though I am not leading,,if you know what i mean
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: you just keep being you Mick! :))
Mickorod Renard: he he ty
Bruce Mowbray nods, agrees with Eliza about Mick being Mick.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Bruce Mowbray: How's that for lived experience?

Logistics

Mickorod Renard: so, did we decide to do first chapter?
Eliza Madrigal: We're just on preface Mick
Mickorod Renard: ah ok,,will re read it
Eliza Madrigal: I made an outline, or began one, but now am trying to see if the puzzle pieces come together differently
Bleu Oleander: thanks for organizing this Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: So this week is where the poem comes into play, and a few other references to touch on...
Ewan Bonham: Yes, this has provided clarity
Eliza Madrigal: thanks.... still not sure of anything except going slowly 
Eliza Madrigal: this session was a good flow, though

Bruce Mowbray loves the idea of poesis as integrating experience.
Tura Brezoianu:the poem? do you mean Lucretius?
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Bleu Oleander: has anyone read it?
Bruce Mowbray: Not only Lucretius but poetry in general, was what I meant.
Eliza Madrigal: It is quite long and not sure if everyone will be able to read it all, but skimming generally should be possible
Eliza Madrigal: just to get a feel for Maxine's thoughts about it
Bruce Mowbray loves Mick's new t-shirt.
Bleu Oleander: its about 200 pages
Eliza Madrigal: Can you say more Bruce?
Eliza Madrigal laughs, cute shirt Mick
Mickorod Renard: yes, thankyou Bruce

Poetry

Bruce Mowbray: Only that she also says that poetry, in her experience, helps integrate experience.
Bruce Mowbray: explores senses, ideas, images, etc... and brings them into relationships with each other.
Eliza Madrigal: thank you
Eliza Madrigal: like pauses for at least some of us :)
Bruce Mowbray: As Archibald McLeish put it, "A poem must not mean, but be."
Eliza Madrigal: "se lah"
Eliza Madrigal: hm
Bruce Mowbray: "Ars Poetica" by Archibald McLeish.
Eliza Madrigal: at the end of a yoga session there is savasana pose... where changes are integrated.... this spontaneous pause reminds me of that
Bleu Oleander: must get going ... take care all
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks everyone, bye Bleu
Mickorod Renard: bye Bleu

Bruce Mowbray: For me, the notion of lived experience is more about ways of being in the world rather than meanings about that world.
Mickorod Renard: yes, i was thinking of Rumi
Eliza Madrigal: ah, well articulated Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: Rumi, Mick?
Mickorod Renard: yeh, i dont know why, just that it seems more detached from the left
Eliza Madrigal: devotion
Bruce Mowbray: Rumi had it together. Wonderful mystical poet.
Ewan Bonham: He easily sought his ecstacy..
Bruce Mowbray: Eliza, will we still be discussing the Preface on Thursday?
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Bruce Mowbray: kk. ty.
Mickorod Renard: I find it a challenge to understand some of this and i take it as a sign of me losing my humanity
Eliza Madrigal: I'm not intending to speed up the outline/timeline... even if we have two sessions a week
Mickorod Renard: I mean Rumi

--BELL--


Bruce Mowbray: OK, thanks, Eliza.
Eliza Madrigal: can always adjust later if necessary
Ewan Bonham: What time does this meet?
Mickorod Renard: thanks Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: 1pm SLT
Bruce Mowbray: (Mondays and Thursdays at 1 p.m. slt, Ewan.)
Eliza Madrigal: Mick, perhaps that you are preoccupied with that concern is one way your devotion expresses itself
Eliza Madrigal: your value of compassion
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Bruce, bye for now
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now, good people.
Mickorod Renard: that may be true Eliza..at least partially
Tura Brezoianu: bye Bruce
Mickorod Renard: bye bye Bruce
Mickorod Renard: I too must go, thankyou all very much
Ewan Bonham: Thanks!
Tura Brezoianu: time for me also
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Mick, Tura, Ewan, Raffi
Eliza Madrigal: Have lovely evenings and happy Martin Luther King Jr Day
Ewan Bonham: Bye for now folks