2017.01.30 13:00 - Purpose of Hemispheres, Swerve and Sublation

All present were guardians. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

For more about these book exploration sessions, please see:
The Wisdom of Lived Experience - Views from Psychoanalysis, Neuroscience, Philosophy and Metaphysics

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cat :)
Eliza Madrigal: how are you doing?
Catrinamonblue Resident: tired... of news and social media...... for the first time ever I'm thinking of closing down for a while and let the mad world spin on it's own without my observations
Eliza Madrigal nods... understand....
Eliza Madrigal: I'll probably be away from FB for February...
Eliza Madrigal: try to every year
Eliza Madrigal: I realized something today.... about FB in particular...
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Tura :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :) for me fb used to be a way to catch up with people.... it's changed over the past few years.....
Tura Brezoianu: hi Eliza, Cat
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Tura :)
Agatha Macbeth: Evening all
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Aggers :)
Eliza Madrigal nods... I'm not sure it is the best way to be informed and comes with a lot of emotional baggage due to relatives and friends all being in there together
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Agatha :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Druth :)
druth Vlodovic: hoy
Eliza Madrigal: it is a difficult time to know what the best approaches are, best uses of energies
druth Vlodovic: happy monday everybody
Eliza Madrigal: but if yo take a break, keep posting photos elsewhere... love your walks with real weather! :)

--BELL--

Catrinamonblue Resident: nods, yes Eliza... for the moment I'll let be
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick, Bruce :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: will do Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: hi mick, Bruce :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi Everyone
Eliza Madrigal: nice to see friendly faces, everyone got scrubbed up
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, all you friendly faces!
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: oops, let me grab ipad...
Eliza Madrigal: just in case :) How is everyone doing with the reading?
Bruce Mowbray wonders if faces are friendlier on ipad.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu :)
Agatha Macbeth: iPadfaces

Mickorod Renard: you may have to ignore me a bit, i havnt read up on stuff and i am just calming down after a temper
Eliza Madrigal: haha, no Bruce, but my book is there
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Bleuji
Mickorod Renard: Hi Bleu
Bleu Oleander: hi all
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Oh dear, Mick (((breathe))))
Mickorod Renard: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hey Aph :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya
Agatha Macbeth: Ooh Aphie
Bruce Mowbray offers to give Mick a relaxing massage.
Aphrodite Macbain: Aggers!
Mickorod Renard: ah thanks Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: yw. :)

Bleu Oleander: does anyone hear weird music here?
Eliza Madrigal: hm, no...
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Bruce Mowbray listens....
Tura Brezoianu: just the fountain. Do you have the stream running?
Bruce Mowbray: Glass' 11th Symphony at Carnegie hall?
Bleu Oleander: there is a stream running
Bleu Oleander: not sure who put it here
Bruce Mowbray: Yep, there is indeed.
Eliza Madrigal: hm... yes there when I turn on stream
Tura Brezoianu: [Now playing: Hilary Hahn / Hauschka - Godot]
Bruce Mowbray turns off the stream.
Aphrodite Macbain turns off streaming music
Aphrodite Macbain: better
Aphrodite Macbain: just the birds now
Eliza Madrigal: Aggers... you keep falling through :(
Tura Brezoianu: turns off industrial noises off
druth Vlodovic: no fans of new wave around here
Bruce Mowbray hates industrial noise.

Agatha Macbeth: I'm a fan of old wave
Eliza Madrigal grins
Aphrodite Macbain: Aggers, you should stop dieting now
Bruce Mowbray: VERY old wave.
Bruce Mowbray: Caveman wave.
Agatha Macbeth: Sine wave
Bruce Mowbray waves.
Aphrodite Macbain: moans

Eliza Madrigal: Okay so ... back to my question... aside from Mick, how are we all doing, and with the reading?
Bruce Mowbray: Doing well with it, Eliza.
Mickorod Renard: I may have read it inadvertedly
Aphrodite Macbain: I keep wanting to rush ahead to the neuroscience stuff
Eliza Madrigal: chose a very small section so that we can not skip over concepts...
Aphrodite Macbain: nods

Bruce Mowbray: I'm using my reading of "The Swerve" to counter rushing ahead with Maxine.
Tura Brezoianu: all the psychoanalytic terminology sends me to Google a lot
Eliza Madrigal: me too!
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: trying to keep it straight
Eliza Madrigal: but I enjoy it too
Eliza Madrigal: we're now at the birth of the I
Bruce Mowbray: It is a wonderfully well-written book -- both of them, actually.
Aphrodite Macbain: can anyone tell me who Ogden Klein and Civitarese are and what they proposed?
Agatha Macbeth: Aye
Agatha Macbeth: I know Ogden Nash
Aphrodite Macbain: hye he
Mickorod Renard: listens
Aphrodite Macbain: me too - funny guy
Eliza Madrigal: that would be helpful... and interested to hear more about The Swerve
Bruce Mowbray also listens.
Bleu Oleander: it helps while reading to google names and concepts

Swerve

Aphrodite Macbain: the book called The Swerve?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, by Stephen Goldblatt.
Eliza Madrigal: how far into it are you Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: checks....
Bruce Mowbray: page 45
Aphrodite Macbain: I can summarize what I think Swerve means in this context
Eliza Madrigal: great
Bruce Mowbray: Please do, Aphrodite.
Mickorod Renard: please
Aphrodite Macbain: Please correct me if I'm wrong
Aphrodite Macbain: but I understand the concept of swerve to be what we now understand as genetic modification
Aphrodite Macbain: Lucretius believed that we were part of a cascading bunch of atoms
Aphrodite Macbain: running parallel
Aphrodite Macbain: millions of them
Aphrodite Macbain: falling like rain
Bleu Oleander: the swerve meant only that atoms move and bump into each other
Aphrodite Macbain: then, occasionally,
Aphrodite Macbain: one would swerve
Bleu Oleander: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: and create a change
Aphrodite Macbain: leading other atoms in a new direction
Aphrodite Macbain: . I belived this is how Lucretius explained change and diversity
Bruce Mowbray: Well, the book by Goldblatt is actually the history of how Lucretius' text was rediscovered, and how that discovery helped create a modern world ( but I've only read 45 pages of it, so far).
Aphrodite Macbain: Is that what your understanding is Bleu?
Bleu Oleander: yes

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes I'm just talking about the concept of the original swere that Goldblatt is describing
Bleu Oleander: you'll read that further on in the book Bruce
Mickorod Renard: this would fit into the idea that mutation is more likely to bring radical change than evolution as in Darwins theories I recon
Bruce Mowbray nods in silent drop.
Aphrodite Macbain: sits quietly
Aphrodite Macbain: Swerve, the book, came later :-)

Bleu Oleander: Darwins evolution is change/mutations
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: that's the 19th century science
Aphrodite Macbain: not the 2nd century one
Bleu Oleander: right :)
Bruce Mowbray: ahhh.
Mickorod Renard: yes, but there is a line of thought that mutations happen quicker than the earlier led idea that Darwin set about
druth Vlodovic: I was watching a video about a fellow in 500BC who was deducing species change from evidence of geologic change
Aphrodite Macbain: (actually De Rerum Naturae was written in (c. 99 BC – c. 55 BC)
Aphrodite Macbain: what was it saying druth?
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm. Species change caused by geologic change?
Aphrodite Macbain: 500 BC?
druth Vlodovic: just that, ancient greek found fossil sealife on top of a mountain and went on from there
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi San
druth Vlodovic: meh, it was a sentance in a video, I might have my facts wrong
druth Vlodovic: hi san
Mickorod Renard: Hi san
Bleu Oleander: lots of pressures drive changes in species
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, fossils on mountains. . . EUREKA!
Tura Brezoianu: maybe Xenophanes?
Aphrodite Macbain: those Greeks were a smart bunch
druth Vlodovic: willing to think new thoughts
Bleu Oleander: they were on it!
druth Vlodovic: which means being willing to be wrong and to discard knowledge
Eliza Madrigal: Hi San

Mickorod Renard: I think I may have caused deviation in the discussion..but how might this swerve fit into maxines book?
Santoshima Resident: hello eveyone
Agatha Macbeth: Hi San
Bleu Oleander: nice Mick :)
Aphrodite Macbain: the genetic change is an accident but 9 times out of 10 the change wont make any difference
Bruce Mowbray sends San a sine wave.
Bleu Oleander: hi San
Tura Brezoianu: (just googled for that) also a bunch of the Greeks, about then, Miletus, Heraclitus etc. And Lucretius
Bruce Mowbray Heraclitus is my hero.
druth Vlodovic: Lucretius sounds familiar
Mickorod Renard: is it that the swerve may have led the way that we now look at how people think may be wrong?
Aphrodite Macbain: Lucretius wrote the book we are talking about
Mickorod Renard: or something like that?
Bleu Oleander: incorporated Epicurus' ideas
Aphrodite Macbain: say again Mick?
druth Vlodovic: maybe swerve is the big change that changes everything else, like plants that produce oxygen
Mickorod Renard: he he
Aphrodite Macbain: the swerve that Lucretius talked about in The Nature of Things, was what I described

Wu

Bruce Mowbray: I just finished an online course in Taoism. . . and I was struck by how many different kinds of "Wu" there are... It was fun to think of Maxine's book, left/right brain stuff, and "Wu" -- natural movement -- simultaneously.
Mickorod Renard: yes, but in context to Maxines book,,is she refering that the swerve may have led us down the wrong path?
Tura Brezoianu: Lucretius' swerve is where he put free will, but modern knowledge doesn't seem to leave any room for swerves
Aphrodite Macbain: does she?
Bleu Oleander: there really is no wrong path ... that depends on point of view, subjectivity to make that claim
druth Vlodovic: wrong in what way?

Eliza Madrigal: It feels as though Maxine is showing either stages of our understanding or development ... With the dialectic she is talking about ideas that don't negate but rather go through stages until synthesis... self awareness
Bruce Mowbray: She does sort of indicate that "swerve" toward the left brain...
Mickorod Renard: I dunno..but the swerve leads us one way or another
Aphrodite Macbain: She talks more about Lucretius notion of the lived experience and living in the present
Aphrodite Macbain: rather than in the past or future
Bleu Oleander: which comes from Epicurus' philosophy Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: the Epicurians believed the importance of enjoying the present day
Mickorod Renard: ah I see Eliza, thanks
Aphrodite Macbain: exactly Bleu
Aphrodite Macbain: swerve was a minor detour!
Mickorod Renard: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I have the feeling it influenced Maxine a lot

Bruce Mowbray: my term for ' enjoying' is " appreciation" -- which, I feel, is more neutral.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: some people call it mindfulness
druth Vlodovic: I'm not sure that right way/wrong way or even trying to convince people of value is a good way to walk
Aphrodite Macbain: Epicurious prized sitting in his garden and enjoying his friends
Bruce Mowbray: Excellent point, druth.
Mickorod Renard: yes, I have noticed that many wrong things have great value
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Mickorod Renard: well, i enjoy them
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: like what Mick?
Mickorod Renard: shhhh, I will tell later
Catrinamonblue Resident: ice cream :)
Aphrodite Macbain: chocolate?
Catrinamonblue Resident: mmmm
Bleu Oleander: wait ... chocolate wrong?
Bruce Mowbray: scotch?
Aphrodite Macbain: wrong implies a morality of sorts
Mickorod Renard: I mean..one learns from mistakes
druth Vlodovic: our language is so full of valuation
Aphrodite Macbain: a rather vague word
Catrinamonblue Resident: wrong for my waist line ;)
Aphrodite Macbain: wrong answer
Bruce Mowbray: Ha ha!
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
druth Vlodovic: I wonder if there is a course on talking without judging :p
Bleu Oleander: is valuation wrong?

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: it was interesting to parallel the dialectic and Freud id, ego, superego ... describing the superego as a kind of supervaluator maybe :)
Bleu Oleander: we all make millions of value judgments all the time ... some good, some not so good
Bruce Mowbray: Your question sort of begs the question, Bleu.
Mickorod Renard: yes, I have often held a view that that is the purpose of the hemispheres..to cross examine etc
Mickorod Renard: oops
Bruce Mowbray: George Lakoff would probably say that language cannot avoid framing some sort of judgment. . . valuation.
Bruce Mowbray: I like the cross examination of brain hemispheres, Mick.
Santoshima Resident: George and many others
druth Vlodovic: imagine a language devoid of valuation, and how it might affect the speaker
Mickorod Renard: if only to make sense
Aphrodite Macbain: we have to make decisions regularly which implies making judgements

Bruce Mowbray: I read an interesting article recently about artificial intelligence - and whether it might be sexist.
Aphrodite Macbain: sexist??
Bruce Mowbray: yes.
Agatha Macbeth: Doesn't survival depend on judgement?
Mickorod Renard: wow interesting
Bruce Mowbray: Indeed it does, Agatha.
Bleu Oleander: of course Aggers
druth Vlodovic: sexist how?
druth Vlodovic: you mean the desire to create it, or the AI itself?
Mickorod Renard: I suppose it depends on its level of inteligence?
Bruce Mowbray: well, the program's algorithms might ' swerve' toward masculine preferences?
Bruce Mowbray: and valuations?
druth Vlodovic: you could replace comparisons with bald statements of fact
Eliza Madrigal: or a masculine idea of femininity and comfort programmed into some robots
Bruce Mowbray: this is where I find Taoism really fascinating....
Agatha Macbeth: How a computer know that?
Bruce Mowbray: a balance... which I think is what Mick was suggesting with the cross-examination of hemispheres.
Catrinamonblue Resident: bald statemetns of fact would still be subject to valuation i would think....
druth Vlodovic: oh,I have noticed that many "successful" women tend towards masculine character, which is not surprising since our definitions of that type of success are based on masculine society
Bruce Mowbray: the balance of Yang ( left brain) and Yin ( right brain)...
Aphrodite Macbain: what is "masculine character" druth?
druth Vlodovic: maybe we could use yin and yang instead masculine and feminine for these discussions
Bruce Mowbray: good suggestion, druth.
Aphrodite Macbain: they still need defining in some way
Eliza Madrigal nods

Bleu Oleander: I think its not so simplistic ... left and right ... whole brain is involved in most things
druth Vlodovic: forceful, bold,willing to take risks,making definite statements etc
Aphrodite Macbain: (that's my left brain speaking)
Bruce Mowbray: :)

Mickorod Renard: I do to a point Bruce..but I also wondered whether part of the brain needs to be open to everything,,like a quantum brain,,so it has room to develop,,but the other half has to restrain to fit into its environmental needs
Bruce Mowbray nods, agrees with Mick.
druth Vlodovic: sexist characterizations are more wishful thinking than reality in most cases anyway
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: I know women with all those characteristics
druth Vlodovic: interesting mick
Eliza Madrigal: well as we read there is this whole notion of first objects... like "mother"...
Eliza Madrigal: that's where ogden comes in I think...
Aphrodite Macbain: (not Nash)
Bruce Mowbray wonders if anyone else in our group is perceiving everyday experience in terms of left/right brain differences.
Eliza Madrigal: not Nash :)
Aphrodite Macbain: what does Ogden say Eliza?
Bleu Oleander: we're getting ahead of Hegel, no?
Aphrodite Macbain: auflurung?
Bruce Mowbray: yes, Eliza is moving ahead in the book....
Eliza Madrigal: one flows to another... but Aph brought him up, lol
Tura Brezoianu: I think there's just one of me :)
Aphrodite Macbain: that's this Thursday
druth Vlodovic: belief versus fact finding and experimentation might be part of the basic mental process? Maybe why we keep thinking of science as being in opposition to religion and magic and spirituality in spite of evidence to the contrary
Agatha Macbeth: It was the butler in the library
Aphrodite Macbain: "the scientific method"
Aphrodite Macbain: with the cheeseknife
Mickorod Renard: I think I may go with that Druth

Aufhebung!

Eliza Madrigal: Hegel and aufenhung is where we are now... the flowering... which it seems is harder to articulate, which may be why discussions get stuck in the back and forth
Eliza Madrigal: bung*
Bleu Oleander: agree Eliza :)
Agatha Macbeth: Bung?
Mickorod Renard: ah 'the flowering
Bruce Mowbray: beautiful metaphor.
Aphrodite Macbain: Can we talk about aufenhung?
Bruce Mowbray: sure, let's.
Eliza Madrigal: aufhebung, hhaa... I have to look at the word every time :P
Tura Brezoianu: aufhebung
Tura Brezoianu: ?
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: Flowering is a cyclical process
Mickorod Renard: I recon that fits then Aph
Eliza Madrigal: I kept thinking about Eckhart Tolle and "A New Earth" - I didn't realize he was teaching Hegel
Aphrodite Macbain: are we talking about a cyclical process of becoming? Can we?
Bleu Oleander: Hegel is not your basic philosophy! lol
Bruce Mowbray: in which no synthesis is wholly void of its thesis and antithesis ---
Aphrodite Macbain: do we develop cyclically?
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe we should get Rhiannon here
Mickorod Renard: I read about the flowering but now forgot what it was

--BELL--

Aphrodite Macbain: I gather Hegel can be a bit impenetrable
Bleu Oleander: actually new thoughts in biology might be easier to understand than Hegel :)

Mickorod Renard:
Cease looking for flowers!
There blooms a garden in your own home.
While you look for trinkets
The treasure house awaits in your own being.
Rumi

Eliza Madrigal: actually I just looked and aufhebung and Ogden are in our same reading for this Thursday, so fair game :) re aufhebung:
"The concept provides a guide for a universal process of evolution and transformation involving the simultaneous alteration and preservation of vital aspect of what has gone before"

Aphrodite Macbain: One central term of Hegel, the German word "aufheben", is usualy translated as "sublation" into English.
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, thanks Mick....
druth Vlodovic: ok, that clears it up Eliza
Bruce Mowbray ponders "preservation of vital aspect of what has gone before"
Aphrodite Macbain: changing and staying the same
Eliza Madrigal: I always come back to the word integration but it is more dynamic than that because it is a further opening
Bleu Oleander: ok so explain that :)
Bruce Mowbray: "I am a part of all that I have met..." or they are part of Me.
Aphrodite Macbain: Hegel believes in dialectical thinking too
Catrinamonblue Resident: Oh nice Bruce :)
Aphrodite Macbain: while ALL possibilities can happen at once

Tura Brezoianu: I wonder if the word "sublation" was invented to translate "aufhebung"
Bruce Mowbray: Opposites sort of balance out? Or borrow from each other? or influence each other in development of something "new"?
Eliza Madrigal: so we have this back and forth / push pull of tradition and innovation (thinking practically)... but progress depends on integrating .... so, hate to bring politics but some have said if we lurch forward too fast we end up having to go back and include what we passed over in order to really progress.... not sure myself
Aphrodite Macbain: not an either/or way of thiniking
Aphrodite Macbain: nice observation Eliza
Aphrodite Macbain: the importance of moving slowly
Mickorod Renard: a sort of conception idea
Eliza Madrigal: hm
Aphrodite Macbain: GRADUALLY becoming
Bleu Oleander: must slip out ... nice to see you all :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Bleu
Eliza Madrigal: bye Bleu!
Mickorod Renard: bye Bleu
druth Vlodovic: jumping ahead and then going back can be a good way to do it too
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Bleu
Bruce Mowbray: gradually becoming through sharing . . . not just through opposition.

Tura Brezoianu: is the Aufhebung the same thing as the synthesis (that follows thesis and antithesis)?
Agatha Macbeth: Slip well Bleu
druth Vlodovic: ttfn bleu
Aphrodite Macbain: as long as you aren't too destructive in the process
Aphrodite Macbain: yes Tura
Mickorod Renard: aufebung thing seemed dificult to digest
Eliza Madrigal: yes.... have a section to type...
Agatha Macbeth: Well I read aufhebung as 'lifting up'
Bruce Mowbray: kk, type on.
Aphrodite Macbain: sublation is the term used in English - it means allowing for opposite realities to exist at the same time
Aphrodite Macbain: listens to Eliza

Eliza Madrigal: "It is often paraphrased as involving thesis antithesis synthesis... a triad of terms which might be misleading in that one may surmise that there is a complete cancellation of thesis and antithesis by synthesis..
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Aphrodite Macbain: lifting up is a good translation - sublation. Giving equal value
Mickorod Renard: i was thinking,,after alot of toing and froing..eventualy there is a product
Bruce Mowbray: (the Marxian bias)
druth Vlodovic: hmm, you can't learn something new without damaging previous knowledges
Agatha Macbeth: Makes me think of upheaval
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: In a pleasant way :-)
Eliza Madrigal: ..."This assumption would neglect the subtle but essential preservation and elevation of aspects of each phase by the process. What is truly important (in a) is the sense of creative elaboration and growth, rather than the more reflexive annihilation of the opposition..."
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Eliza Madrigal: but that line makes me remember the possible favoring of "right brain" you mentioned last week Tura
Bruce Mowbray: so this dialogue between our two brains need not be destructive of either....
druth Vlodovic: two things do not need equal amounts of airtime to be equal in worth
Aphrodite Macbain: I dont think so Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: so value is more than mere quantity...
Eliza Madrigal: yes, if there are recurring examples then it would make a case for that collaboration being the more natural course...?
Eliza Madrigal: even if obscured
druth Vlodovic: perhaps transformation would be a less charged term than destruction
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Mickorod Renard: there was some sugestion that not all gained input is displaced even though its not used,,I thought
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Bruce Mowbray nods, agrees, likes transformation.
Aphrodite Macbain: I am trying to apply this theory to myself
Aphrodite Macbain: and cant
druth Vlodovic: the experience of having learned it will have it's effect
Mickorod Renard: me too..I can,,sometimes the value of some knowledge doesnt present itself until years afterwards

Bruce Mowbray: As I look back on my life, I see myself reentering the same situations... but this time appreciating the growth potential that I had not appreciated in previous occurrences. It's a bit like having to take the same class over and over again until I get it right. That's what I mean by "cycle," Aph.
Aphrodite Macbain: Can I be "of two minds" about something for long?
druth Vlodovic: previously referred to as "nuanced" :P
Aphrodite Macbain: cycling backwards as well as forwards Bruce?
Mickorod Renard: perhaps one has to evolve before the input turns into fully utilized knowledge
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Eliza Madrigal: an interesting line of thinking

--BELL--

Aphrodite Macbain: parallel lines
Eliza Madrigal: and then there is the collective... am sure not everything is fully utilized individually
Aphrodite Macbain: true
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Mickorod Renard: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: consensus based decision making
druth Vlodovic: knowledge versus utility, reminds me of every time I got a new job supposedly using what i had learned in school
Aphrodite Macbain: requires opposing perspectives
Eliza Madrigal: checks n balances.... sigh...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: sighs too
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I need to run.... but thanks everyone <3 please stay if you like
Bruce Mowbray: well I don't see them as opposing, necessarily. I see them more like Yang and Yin influences.
Catrinamonblue Resident: By Eliza :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Eliza
Mickorod Renard: I had a vision of laying a road,,all the layers before the finnished surface
Mickorod Renard: bye Eliza
Agatha Macbeth watches Liz run
Eliza Madrigal: bfn have fun, will send an email tonight or tomorrow re thurs
Aphrodite Macbain: interesting image Mick
Agatha Macbeth is now in a Canada sandwich
Aphrodite Macbain wishes I could see Aggers
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
druth Vlodovic: :P
Agatha Macbeth: I'm right next to you
Aphrodite Macbain: aww
Aphrodite Macbain: I dont see you
druth Vlodovic: being lettuce
Agatha Macbeth: In fact you sat on me when you arrived :p
Mickorod Renard: ah I see Ags, I was at first thinking something else
Aphrodite Macbain: but i accept you :-)

Bruce Mowbray: the so-called opposite is actually a complement to the other -- a force that completes it, and may enable it to be understood and effective.
Bruce Mowbray: like male and female, night and day, silence and sound.
Catrinamonblue Resident: dancers :)
Bruce Mowbray: yes, wonderful image Cat.
druth Vlodovic: and the more we know the more we see them as sliding scales rather than opposites
Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps a chorus line
Bruce Mowbray: time for me to be scraping up supper....
Agatha Macbeth: Scrape well Brucie
Catrinamonblue Resident: :) me to Bruce :)
Aphrodite Macbain: where do you scrape Bruce?
Mickorod Renard: kk Bruce,,take acre
Agatha Macbeth: Love to the squirrels
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye all :)
Bruce Mowbray: bye for now, good people.
Tura Brezoianu: until next
Mickorod Renard: I must go too,,at least I have calmed down now
Aphrodite Macbain: I still dont see you Aggers
Agatha Macbeth: Good people and others ;P
Aphrodite Macbain: bad people :-)
druth Vlodovic: oh,were you tense?
Mickorod Renard: bye cat
Agatha Macbeth: How about now?
Aphrodite Macbain: nope
Mickorod Renard: bye all
Mickorod Renard: ty
Agatha Macbeth: How strange
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Mick
Agatha Macbeth: TC Mick
Aphrodite Macbain: How can that be?
Agatha Macbeth: Try zooming with the radar
Aphrodite Macbain: nope
druth Vlodovic: right here only not
Agatha Macbeth: Well, don't get that at all
druth Vlodovic: anyway, I believe you exist aggers
druth Vlodovic: ttfn
Agatha Macbeth: You're too kind dear!
Agatha Macbeth: TC