2014.09.04 13:00 - リタイア

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

Eliza Madrigal: (((Wol))) Hello :)
Wol Euler: hello eliza, lovely to see you again
Eliza Madrigal: you look very pretty today
Wol Euler: awww, thank you! I've been digging around in my huge inventory again :)
Eliza Madrigal: luxurious color
Wol Euler: wasn't sure about that, it being so close to my hair colour
Eliza Madrigal: :) for once in a while it seems nice to do

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: How are things with you? in the midst of vacation days?
Wol Euler: well, the office is officially closed, but in practice I'm doing half-days
Wol Euler: as there is still an awful lot of stuff to get done
Eliza Madrigal: I see, but as long as there is a balance
Eliza Madrigal: I'm never sure of what to do with myself if I am not also working on a project
Wol Euler: well, it's an odd kind of balance, very dynamic I would say
Wol Euler: balanced like a bicycle rather than like a plate
Wol Euler: plate on a table
Wol Euler smiles.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: care to say more?
Wol Euler: heheh
Wol Euler: I feel oddly busy all the time, even though only "working" half-time
Wol Euler: it's as though I come up with high-priority tasks for myself to fill the otherwise idle hours
Wol Euler: so my hours off do feel like work in a way
Wol Euler: though self-appointed work
Wol Euler: on things that are at least nominally pleasurable
Eliza Madrigal: as long as its that

Wol Euler: hello bruce
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce :)
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Eliza and Wol.
Wol Euler: plus I can work in the office on stuff that I think is important, without being interrupted by short-term priorities
Eliza Madrigal: that can be such a nice feeling
Eliza Madrigal: the trappings that help one focus, without the pressure

Eliza Madrigal: And how are you feeling, Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: Very good, thanks. Just returned - a bit sweaty - from a one-mile walk.
Eliza Madrigal: in the woods near your house?
Bruce Mowbray: I can no longer walk in the woods, unfortunately. . . my balance isn't good enough anymore. so I just walked down the road to the bridge and back.
Wol Euler nods
Eliza Madrigal: what kind of bridge?
Bruce Mowbray: I depend on the tactile sensations from my feet for much of my brains balance equation....
Bruce Mowbray: oh, it's just a very small bridge over a stream... a stream that is often dry.
Bruce Mowbray: as it is right now.
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Bruce Mowbray: Wol, do you have any idea how many more years you plan to work --- in your present line of work, I mean?
Wol Euler: my hope is to die at my desk :) I love the job and will do it for as long as possible
Bruce Mowbray: Nods, understands.
Wol Euler: because to be honest I don't know what else I would do
Bruce Mowbray: also understands that!
Wol Euler: there are only so many hours per day one can spend reading fiction
Wol Euler: or in the bathtub
Bruce Mowbray: or playing around on the Internet.
Wol Euler: though that one is closer to unlimited :)
Wol Euler: but sooner or later that too has a limit, the eyes start hurting, or the butt
Eliza Madrigal: I've heard you say that before... but when you say it I somehow want to talk you out of that
Eliza Madrigal: (re dying at your desk)
Wol Euler: awww
Wol Euler: how does it sound to you? pessimistic? sad?
Eliza Madrigal: Well, this is the second time I've heard you say it, and at first I was surprised... thought you would say traveling, or seeing Venice as many times as possible...
Eliza Madrigal: but then when I heard it just now, I thought that I'd like to have a better feeling for the way you work
Eliza Madrigal: what sensations being immersed at work stirs for you

Bruce Mowbray: A creative and productive retirement - like a well-designed building - can also be a work of art.
Eliza Madrigal nods, can be
Wol Euler: well ... to start a bit further back. When I say "die at my desk", what that means is not to retire. I'd still take holidays in Venice, of course, and read fiction, and take baths. Perhaps even more of them than at present!
Wol Euler: but "retirement" as a concept fills me with horror
Wol Euler: dread of the vacuum of time
Eliza Madrigal: that I can understand
Eliza Madrigal: I've felt retired before I started, at various points of life
Wol Euler: care to unpack that a little`?

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: Retirement does take some getting used to, that's for sure.... especially when one has had steady jobs literally since teenage years.
Eliza Madrigal: It is that retirement is such a strange idea, where instead of looking at the place one is in and considering what will come next, one tries to let go of thinking that way... what's next...
Eliza Madrigal: so thinking of that vacuum, I've felt that at other points, where it felt like life wouldn't let me fill that in
Wol Euler: part of that fear is fouded in self-knowledge. One reason I work so hard is that I am incredibly lazy.
Wol Euler: if I didn't have the structure of work to rely on, I would spend entire weeks in bed
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: you sound like my grandfather, who said that everything he ever did (various businesses he owned or started), he did to get out of working
Bruce Mowbray: I send some of my squirrels over to wake you up, Wol.
Wol Euler: heheheh, I know what he means
Wol Euler: I learned programming for exactly that reason
Eliza Madrigal: :) squirrels have quite a network
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Wol Euler: complicating my life in order to simplify my work
Bruce Mowbray: One of them still wakes me every morning - - - jumping from an overhanging branch onto the metal roof....
Eliza Madrigal: this is what I'm hoping dawns on my son
Bruce Mowbray: listens.

Eliza Madrigal: Actually today on the way home from school we were talking about Santideva
Wol Euler listens.
Bruce Mowbray: The Way of a bodhisattva?
Eliza Madrigal: I apologized for getting buddhisty, but I told him the story of how the other monks saw Santideva, and the bodhicharyavatara (yes Way of bodhisattva).. and the story most people hear first from those teachings...
Eliza Madrigal: which is about not covering the world with leather, but rather tending to one's own shoes
Wol Euler smiles.
Bruce Mowbray: nods, wonderful principle and image.
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: he seemed to enjoy it
Eliza Madrigal: Somehow learning programming made me think of that :)
Eliza Madrigal: ah... then it turned into a discussion of the mind
Wol Euler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisa...%81vat%C4%81ra
Wol Euler listens.
Eliza Madrigal: well, Jesus saying that if your eye was single your whole body/life would be full of light
Eliza Madrigal: is similar to Santideva's idea of taking responsibility and the Zen notion of turning the light inward
Bruce Mowbray: Small is beautiful.
Eliza Madrigal: it was a good talk. He's been giving me many critiques lately and we've been talking in interesting ways
Wol Euler giggles.
Eliza Madrigal: he said I won't be an old woman who complains a lot but that I'd probably be a little crazy
Wol Euler: sounds fine
Eliza Madrigal: we'll see
Wol Euler: anyone who lives long enough is a little crazy :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)))
Bruce Mowbray: that's for sure! I can vouch for that.
Wol Euler: there, see? :)
Eliza Madrigal: so retirement... about emptying instead of filling?
Eliza Madrigal: cultivating that?
Wol Euler nods.

Bruce Mowbray: " a man needs a little madness or else he never dares break the ropes and be free" - Zorba

Wol Euler: if I had a job that was unpleasant or unchallenging, then I'd see retirement differently
Eliza Madrigal wonders if only the mad see the ropes in the first place
Wol Euler: but this is always different, each project is different
Wol Euler nods.
Eliza Madrigal: that's what's called a Blessing, Wol :)
Wol Euler: absolutely! I know how madly, undeservedly lucky I am
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Wol Euler: when I think of retirement, I imagine missing this challenge, this intensity of thought

Wol Euler: people remark on the depth of detail in my dreams, how thoroughly visualized they are
Wol Euler: well, that is what I do at work

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: you do have such eye for detail
Wol Euler: it's the job, we are trained for that
Wol Euler: imagining a point, a transition, an overlap or a meeting, and turning it around and around to see how it would work -- or not
Wol Euler: keeping everything in mind at once, or at least many things close to the surface of the mind
Wol Euler: thinking in dozens of metres when planning a structural grid, and in the next moment considering the 8 millimetre thickness of the flanges of the I-beams ...

Eliza Madrigal: does beauty/form emerge naturally during the work steps/process, or do you have to sort of scaffold the practical things first then think about beauty?
Wol Euler: hard to say where beauty comes from, in architecture
Wol Euler: at least as we practice it
Wol Euler: it is an emergent property :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Wol Euler: much of it is in the final stages, the surface finishes
Wol Euler: which particular tile one chooses, how reflective or matte it is
Eliza Madrigal: how it plays with the rest?
Wol Euler: parts of it come from the first hour-old sketches, the curve of a wall in sunlight
Wol Euler: mmhmm, right, the whole
Bleu Oleander: hiya :)
Wol Euler: hello bleu
Eliza Madrigal: I can see how that would be deeply pleasurable

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu :)
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Bleu!
Eliza Madrigal: we've just been talking about retirement, work pleasure, beauty
Bleu Oleander: in that order?
Eliza Madrigal: more of a mosaic

Bruce Mowbray: Wol's remarks about beauty in architecture reminds me of the Milwaukee Art Museum which my typist saw for the second time this spring: https://www.google.com/search?q=Milw...A&ved=0CFcQsAQ
Bruce Mowbray: the building reminds me of the giant bird about to take wing over Lake Michigan.
Eliza Madrigal clicks
Bruce Mowbray: and twice a day that giant bird opens and closes its wings... so the whole building is a sort of sculpture.
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Wol Euler: extreme case, we don't do that stuff
Eliza Madrigal: that must feel amazing to walk through
Wol Euler: mostly because we don't have the imagination to create it, to be honest
Bruce Mowbray: sort of like a spaceship, actually.
Bleu Oleander: I love Calatrava's work
Eliza Madrigal: the imagination would have to be invoked probably, asked for with particular specifications

Wol Euler: those wings are pure art, by the way
Wol Euler: absolutely no justification for them in space or structural stability or lighting ...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: art for art's sake?
Wol Euler: probably a sixth or a fifth of the building cost, all told
Wol Euler: just joy and art, and a client who can pay for it
Eliza Madrigal: the heart has its reasons which reason knows not of
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bruce Mowbray: so a building which is art and which contains art --- An art art museum!

Wol Euler: the art has its reasons too :)

Eliza Madrigal: I like to flip through architecture magazines, for no useful reason. I think because non-thoughts come up, inspired by, like you describe, curves and light
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: there is joy in it, no question
Eliza Madrigal: so one can spend a great deal of time actively not thinking in the usual sense
Eliza Madrigal: just feeling
Wol Euler: en-joy-ment
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Wol Euler: the difference is really about the relative importance of architecture/building and life
Wol Euler: you can either see the building as a wonderful thing and have people try to accomodate themselves to it (can you actually display art in that?)
Wol Euler: or you can see the lives of people as significant and try to put a frame around them
Wol Euler: which I'd modestly say is what we do
Eliza Madrigal: :) there's the heart maybe... the motivation
Wol Euler nods.

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: some beautiful images of Calatrava's work on his site: http://www.calatrava.com/#/Selected%...e?mode=english
Wol Euler: I am always jumping up from my desk to measure stuff out against/with my body
Bruce Mowbray: All of the interior rooms in which paintings are hung ( in the Milwaukee Art Museum) are rectangular -- just like rooms in any other regular art museum.
Eliza Madrigal: thank you
Eliza Madrigal: immersion
Wol Euler: funny, I've been in Milwaukee three times now, maybe four, and it has never occurred to my hosts to take me there
Eliza Madrigal: (page isn't loading for me now but I will check later)
Eliza Madrigal: we have a new museum, and so far the reviews are that the building is far more impressive than what is within so far
Bleu Oleander: try this one: http://www.calatrava.com/
Alouqua Resident: 's current display-name is "Alouqua".
Eliza Madrigal: I think it is my browser Bleu... too many things opened and SL running
Bleu Oleander: ah ok

Wol Euler: I am uncomfortable hearing that the interesting part of that building is functionally useless, Bruce
Wol Euler: I'm oldfashioned enough to find that reprehensible
Wol Euler: oldfashioned in terms of architectural theories
Bruce Mowbray: I can tell.
Eliza Madrigal: functionally useless or just practical, considering the other effects...? balance?
Wol Euler: but if the art isn't in it, then what is its function?
Wol Euler: other than being the largest billboard in the state of Wisconsin?
Bruce Mowbray: I don't understand. the building is loaded with art.
Eliza Madrigal: yes... just that the interior rooms with the art are basic/rectangular?
Wol Euler: [13:46] Bruce (bruce.mowbray): All of the interior rooms in which paintings are hung ( in the Milwaukee Art Museum) are rectangular -- just like rooms in any other regular art museum.
Bleu Oleander: loaded with art and a quality collection perhaps two different things?
Wol Euler: so the interestingness of the building is not related to its function.
Eliza Madrigal: I might have confused with my comment re the Perez museum here
Bruce Mowbray: apparently others who share Wol's opinions about Milwaukee's Art Museum. an enormous book about the collection was published after the building had been built - - - and opened - - - and the book makes absolutely no mention of the building whatsoever.
Bruce Mowbray: ignores it as if it weren't there.
Bruce Mowbray: although the book does contain many other photographs of previous Milwaukee Art museums.
Wol Euler: huh
Eliza Madrigal: hmmm, so some disdain maybe
Wol Euler: okay, that is just odd
Bruce Mowbray: apparently, I don't know any of that.
Eliza Madrigal: when Perez museum opened here, we had a wei wu wei (sp?) exhibit, and that is where the person smashed the jar...to be part of the art...
Bruce Mowbray: I bought the book for $75 and brought it home still wrapped in cellophane. I was quite surprised to see that it had been published years after the building had been built and yet made no mention of the new building at all.
Wol Euler: such arrogance (both cases)

Eliza Madrigal: you mentioned dreaming earlier, Wol, and I have a neat dreaming incident to share...
Wol Euler: ah!
Wol Euler listens.
Eliza Madrigal: a bit of dream art if you will...hah
Eliza Madrigal: So in the dream I am with my mother, and I've taken her to Japan
Eliza Madrigal: there is a lot of detail I'm leaving out to get to the moment in which we are standing at a very large temple gate
Eliza Madrigal: and I tell her that I'll return soon, but realize she is already half way up the enormous steps, heading toward the gate
Eliza Madrigal: and she is wielding two giant swords above her head in a beautiful manner...
Wol Euler smiles.
Eliza Madrigal: it was as though she was exactly in her element
Eliza Madrigal: it was easy and beautiful... with sort of a magical feeling, simultaneously slow and fast
Eliza Madrigal: I felt so happy when I woke from the dream, and I called her after not having done so in for a month or so...
Wol Euler smiles.
Eliza Madrigal: and she said she was reading a book about a samurai whose specialty was two swords
Wol Euler: O.O
Eliza Madrigal: I know @@
Eliza Madrigal: It was a beautiful moment between us, when we haven't had one in a while
Wol Euler: wow
Wol Euler: that's lovely, as well as so odd

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: sorry to have to run ... please excuse ... rl is calling me ... take care and ntsu all :)
Wol Euler: bye bleu, take care
Eliza Madrigal: bye Bleu, good for you to be here a while, thanks
Eliza Madrigal: it is odd. She sent me a nightgown for my birthday a few weeks ago, that is in a kind of kimono style, and at first I thought the dream was influenced by that. It was the most thoughtful and spot-on gift she's ever given me, and I was really touched.
Eliza Madrigal: anyway, just a moment of uncanny to share
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: thank you
Wol Euler: I'm pleased that you had that moment
Eliza Madrigal: unexpected beauty
Eliza Madrigal: art appears
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: need one more (first) line for a short haiku

Eliza Madrigal: :) am getting sleepy.... maybe thinking about dreaming and going through gates
Wol Euler smiles.
Eliza Madrigal: was up all night
Wol Euler: time for a nap
Wol Euler: O.O
Wol Euler: definitely time for a nap!
Eliza Madrigal: if I nap, I'll be up all night tonight too!
Wol Euler: awwwww
Wol Euler: not if it's short, set the alarm, give yourself 25 minutes
Wol Euler: that works for me
Eliza Madrigal: I was so foggy earlier that I turned a corner, and saw the Machu Pichu Jesus that holds his hands up... at this gardening center. Except that this Jesus looked like he was making the "I don't know" kind of gesture, heheh
Wol Euler laughs.
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Eliza Madrigal: I think we lost Bruce...
Eliza Madrigal: but blub is still swimming, gears turning :)
Wol Euler holds a mirror up to his mouth
Eliza Madrigal: heheh
Eliza Madrigal: I'd better go before I begin (?) to say ridiculous things today
Eliza Madrigal: I was feeling unexplainably sad when I arrived. Thanks for changing that
Wol Euler: awww
Wol Euler: sorry to hear it, but glad to have helped (somehow)
Wol Euler: take care, Eliza
Wol Euler: be kind to yourself
Wol Euler: ♥
Eliza Madrigal: very much so... you too, and Brucie and Bleu as well...all....
Eliza Madrigal: night
Wol Euler: goodnight!

--BELL--

Wol Euler: I shall head off too. Bruce, I hope you are okay.