22-24 - Eos in Underlying Stillness
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2010.02.22 01:00 - Is Life Just a Game?
Yakuzza Lethecus: I consider the mass media as somekind of drug
Tarmel Udimo: fair enough:)
Tarmel Udimo: and what do you get out of it?
Yakuzza Lethecus: actually i don´t know
Yakuzza Lethecus: i can´t even tell the plots after i´ve seen the movies
Yakuzza Lethecus: i remember elements, i have ethical and moral questions that i am not exactly able to formulate
Tarmel Udimo: have you been here before roger?
Roger Ormenthal: No, but I'm looking for intelligent conversation about the universe and it looks like I came to the right place.
2010.02.22 07:00 - Appreciating analogies
Pema Pera: I was just reading in a book by Longchenpa, a Tibetan who lived some seven hundred or so years ago, and who wrote in very simple terms about Being
Gaya Ethaniel listens.
Fael Illyar: yes?
Pema Pera: Not so easy to summarize or explain . . . too simple really :)
Pema Pera: the message is to let go of all effort whatsoever
Pema Pera: and then all his writings are variations on that theme
Fael Illyar: mental effort I hope :)
Pema Pera: all effort of any type -- in so far as they are effort
Pema Pera: ultimate wu-wei, you could say
Making a non-effort
Gaya Ethaniel: It doesn't work for me to say, 'ok from now on I'm going to stop making any effort.' It is likely that there comes a time in any practice, one knows it's time to let things unfold naturally. Before then, one probably needs to make some sort of effort.
Pema Pera: absolutely, Gaya, telling yourself to stop making an effort is an example of an effort!
Gaya Ethaniel: Indeed :)
Pema Pera: letting go is a subtle move, not even a move, very hard to express in words
Pema Pera: the easiest way to approach letting go is to switch from doing to seeing . . .
Pema Pera: watching without preferences, just appreciating what arises, what appears
Pema Pera: the ocean is much wider than each wave
Doing Cultivating Seeing
Pema Pera: during the Malta retreat we talked about these three: doing, cultivating, seeing
Pema Pera: starting from a forced way of doing, we can take the first step towards wu-wei or nondoing by switching to cultivating instead of forcing, letting grow rather than manipulating; and then the second step toward a deeper wu-wei drops even the focus on cultivating, leaving seeing as the main approach.
Pema Pera: so based on seeing, you still keep cultivating, during which there is a lot of doing -- but without effort and without even aiming at any result
Being traceless
Pema Pera: it's all so easy, easier than easy -- and at the same time impossible, harder than hard . . . .
Pema Pera: impossible because there is nothing you can do
Pema Pera: too easy because there is nothing you can do
Pema Pera: but be
Myna Maven: But Western society is so focused on manipulation and forcing change.
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: so we have to learn to relax all that, to let go of all that
Myna Maven: Making one's impact. Leaving one's imprint.
Pema Pera: so that's why we're here -- to become traceless :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Pema Pera: pactless, printless
On Real Life retreats
Pema Pera: It's a very different experience from SL meetings!
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Myna Maven: Well, it would be. :)
Pema Pera: yet, there is remarkable continuity -- within minutes, literally, of first meeting each other in RL, everybody is comfortable with each other, given that we've met already so often in SL
Pema Pera: a very odd experience!
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Pema Pera: seeing a "new" person yet interacting with an "old" acquaintance
Pema Pera: like a dream
Myna Maven: So, in a way then it is not so different in as much as the transition to real life is so easy.
Myna Maven: Which is like a dream, then? SL or real life?
Pema Pera: what is different is that we can go into a shared experience far far more deeply in RL
Pema Pera: all is like a dream :)
Pema Pera: I often watch my dream memories like watching a painting and then switching from the painting to the paint -- feeling the sense of the dream more than the meaning or looking for an interpretation
Pema Pera: allowing the dream to speak itself
Pema Pera: wordlessly
2010.02.22 13:00 - A Dogs Life
Mickorod Renard: I know that on my way to work,,driving,,thismorning,,I was heavy into thinkin about rubbish,,then I thought wait,,just enjoy the countryside,,it was so much better
Wol Euler smiles.
Mickorod Renard: I was dreaming of flying around a black hole the other day,,in my sleep
SophiaSharon Larnia: theres something lovely about hovering in an awake/asleep state until you wake up all the way though :)
Mickorod Renard: I guess the thing is,,u can go to sleep thinking of something u choose,,but wake up under little control over thoughts
Mickorod Renard: does anyone here find it increasingly dificult to have sensible conversations with people outside this group?
Wol Euler: hehehehehe, yes mick
Zen Arado: and sheepdogs are in a class of their own
Agatha Macbeth: That's what the sheep say too
Zen Arado: know whistle tones
Calvino Rabeni: have you seen "extreme sheepherding" video?
Wol Euler: ooh,yes!
Mickorod Renard: I tried to train mine to search for money
2010.02.22 19:00 - Transitions and vowels
Eos Amaterasu: Does Play as Being pop up in your day to day life, Bleu?
Bleu Oleander: so you mean the 90 sec practice?
Eos Amaterasu: or something like that
Bleu Oleander: yes it does
Bleu Oleander: I find myself taking more conscious breaks from what I'm doing
Eos Amaterasu: How do you arrange them, so to speak (conscious breaks)?
Bleu Oleander: they just come to mind more often
Bleu Oleander: more random
Bleu Oleander: how does PaB fit in your day?
Eos Amaterasu: It, or the whatever it is sometimes knowns as PaB, comes up sometimes consciously/deliberately, but more often through happenstance, especially transitions
Gap
Eos Amaterasu: transitions are a break anyway
Eos Amaterasu: & all you need to do is to fall into them :-)
Eos Amaterasu: Moving the dish from the sink to the rack
Bleu Oleander: could you say a little more about transitions ...
Eos Amaterasu: one thing has ended and the next thing hasn't quite begun
Eos Amaterasu: awareness shifts, from one thing to another
Eos Amaterasu: there's a pause, and ....
Calvino Rabeni: Another natural kind of transition is based on the habits people have of managing their energy - like getting tense, for instance, people have coping habits to deal with it. These can be conected with doing a mindful pause - that is like I'm sure you've heard - if tense, pause, take a deep breath
Bleu Oleander: yes
Calvino Rabeni: Instead of e.g. reach for a cigarette or whatever people used to do :)
Calvino Rabeni: It used to be for me - riding in the car, get tense, I'd often find myself reaching to turn on the radio to distract myself
stevenaia Michinaga: not sure if I relax the kitty or the kitty relaxes me
Bleu Oleander: I have two dogs that keep me focused and in the present
Calvino Rabeni: Caught myself enough at that, to hook it up to relaxing and feeling myself instead
Sudden shock
Eos Amaterasu: Transitions can also be sudden and shocking
stevenaia Michinaga: shocking?
Calvino Rabeni: True
Eos Amaterasu: sudden loud sound, and whatever you were thinking of has disappeared
Eos Amaterasu: you're just there, open
Eos Amaterasu: aware
Eos Amaterasu: don't know what there is to be aware of
Eos Amaterasu: at that moment you can feel very alive
Eos Amaterasu: even though there's no handholds
Eos Amaterasu: your senses are perked
Eos Amaterasu: your whiskers are quivering
Eos Amaterasu: In a big shock the state of mind can change for a noticeable time
Eos Amaterasu: like 9/11
Eos Amaterasu: but soon conceptual and discursive mind rushes in
Eos Amaterasu: So what we do here is create it semi-artificially (ding!)
Eos Amaterasu: so periodically everything collapses, is a total failure, we can't do it any more
Eos Amaterasu: and then the bird sings
Eos Amaterasu: it's not that gaps happen in the continuity of things happening
Eos Amaterasu: it's that things happen in and emerge from and never leave the gap
Eos Amaterasu: the trick about experiencing little gaps is that sometimes you experience
Eos Amaterasu: things arising in and from the gap
Eos Amaterasu: they still have some of that quality, maybe humor, "space"
Eos Amaterasu: freshness
Calvino Rabeni: ah
Eos Amaterasu: copernican revolution
Eos Amaterasu: "ah" is its seed syllable :-)
Calvino Rabeni: How is that?
Eos Amaterasu: when you're surprised you say , ah!
Eos Amaterasu: or when you discover something or "get it", you say "ah"
Calvino Rabeni: It seems to express freshness
Calvino Rabeni: the consonants are the structure and limits and form; the vowels are the spirit
Calvino Rabeni: and the energy
Eos Amaterasu: Ah!
Calvino Rabeni: Have you noticed that the "name" of god is ALL vowels, and includes all of them twice?
Calvino Rabeni: not only twice, but in a pattern of moving energy down and then up again
Niekas is Lithuanian for "nothing"
2010.02.23 07:00 - To not Travel
Yakuzza Lethecus: but i have no need for that right now, it´s just that i fear creating habits like ... "i have to have visited half the world in order to be happy at some point in life"
I've wondered about that myself...
Riddle Sideways: but, I been meaning to ask...
Riddle Sideways: Fael is that your Whale circling over in the village
Yakuzza Lethecus: now i know who garrison keillor is :)
Fael Illyar: nope, I have no wales.
Fael Illyar: uh whales
Fael Illyar: looks to be gaya's
2010.02.23 13:00 - Cults and gelato
Storm Nordwind: Believe this or not, Agatha, I've found some good American beer here
arabella Ella: so your implication is that many of today's mother goddess cults use mainly fantasy?
Storm Nordwind: My implication that I know many people who are acting out their eager wishes. I do not know all of them
Agatha Macbeth: Are the modern ones not usually very 'Glastonbury-ish'?
Storm Nordwind: There are plenty of good things in Glastonbury, as well as the ones that have no grounding at all
Agatha Macbeth agrees
Agatha Macbeth: I love it there
Agatha Macbeth: Particularly standing on top of the Tor :)
arabella Ella would love to go to Glastonbury some day
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe we could have a retreat there? :)
arabella Ella: @Agatha ... you could always offer Pema and Eos to host a retreat in Glastonbury would be lovely
Talk with that local deity first...
Storm Nordwind: Most people who try to recreate some kind of old religion or cult make the mistake of not even talking with the deity or deities involved. They don't ask what they want or if they want it. It's rather me-centered usually
2010.02.23 19:00 - the always misinterpreted distraction
Eos Amaterasu: I really appreciated that 90 seconds. It's been a very busy day.
Eos Amaterasu: The busyness was all there, but also let go
Paradise Tennant: same here .. nice to be still :)
Eos Amaterasu: What was your experience, Arch?
Archmage Atlantis: Nice to feel your lives, in the many seconds
Paradise Tennant: yes arch !
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Benedizione Vita: oh my, yes, life does tick by each second
Benedizione Vita: it is a tremendous challenge, the appreciation of time
Eos Amaterasu: Can you say more, Benedizione?
Benedizione Vita: No
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Paradise Tennant: on a happy note .. eos :) I heard from godwin over the weekend re the dog in malta .. speaking of life :) and pest being me !
Eos Amaterasu: Wow, really
Eos Amaterasu: ?
Paradise Tennant: He has managed to negotiate with the hunter to come every morning to let the dog out and only put him back in that concrete bunker at night to sleep really
Paradise Tennant: good news!
Paradise Tennant: lol going to tell my buddhist class aspiration works !
Eos Amaterasu wonders about the negotiation
Paradise Tennant: well took a long time apparently godwin is a mediator by trade :) so well equiped I suspect for difficult situations
Eos Amaterasu: your karma is now interlaced with Malta
Paradise Tennant: but very happy news for the dog .. really was like a doggie concentration camp :)
Eos Amaterasu: Paradise, any further reflections on post-retreat?
Paradise Tennant: hmm yes was going to do a write up and insert it into the log if I ever find it
Paradise Tennant: blinks ... perhaps the most remarkable element was how well everyone got along
Paradise Tennant: there was ease and harmony .. at the get go
Paradise Tennant: very relaxed
Paradise Tennant: and very complementary .. the interaction I found to be progressive
Eos Amaterasu: Do you think that was due to having had SL contact first?
Paradise Tennant: bridging building kind of communication
Paradise Tennant: yes
Paradise Tennant: I do think it is amazing how well you can get to know someone in sl without ever having met them in rl but meeting them in rl .. also adds understanding
Eos Amaterasu: Yes, I think in a way people were exfoliating further, disclosing more and richer aspects of themselves
Eos Amaterasu: the RL dimension is pretty deep
stevenaia Michinaga: I friend who will be teaching a class on avatar told me an interesting story abut her SL experience
stevenaia Michinaga: she has a friend with Asbergers who has problems reading "body language"
stevenaia Michinaga: a problem that does not exist in Sl
stevenaia Michinaga: in sl the communications is devoid of that "always misinterpreted distraction"
Eos Amaterasu: what is the "always misinterpreted distraction"?
stevenaia Michinaga: showed me the diferences people have in communicating here
stevenaia Michinaga: body language is the distraction
Eos Amaterasu: ah, less body language in SL, so easier
Paradise Tennant: it was wol I think who said typos are sl's body language
Eos Amaterasu: interesting, the feeling of "well being" has a suspension quality, like a droplet of honey
Calvino Rabeni: Qualities are a great thing - a dimension of experience that is not quantitative
Eos Amaterasu: I'm actually an analog guy deep down :-)
Calvino Rabeni: In a way, I think the experienced world splits on that - subjective experience is about quality - objective experience (things) is about quantity and number
Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps this is because - no one has figured out how to measure Quality
Archmage Atlantis: Ich bin ein Berliner........is that quantitative, or quatlitavve?
Eos Amaterasu: the ein is qualitative
Calvino Rabeni: It is probably qualitative
2010.02.24 01:00 - The game of genes
Aztlan Foss: I guess people compete in everything
Aztlan Foss: like "my beliefs are more logical than yours"
Bolonath Crystal: probably this competition is simply another form of sexual competition
Lawrence Vyceratops: That and we need some kind of meaning to exist.
Aztlan Foss: sex and meaning?
Bolonath Crystal: a big car would be a poor meaning to exist
Lawrence Vyceratops: That may be, but it seems true, nonetheless.
Lawrence Vyceratops: We seek meaning in every endeavor.
Aztlan Foss: yeah I guess the cooler we are the more likely we are to get the hotter girl
Eliza Madrigal: Ya just told me he slept through dream workshop because of listening to a dream lecture on iTunes... heh
SophiaSharon Larnia: practical experiment eh?
Eliza Madrigal grins
Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, not really but always a bad idea to close my eyes and lying in my bed while listening to something
Yakuzza Lethecus: at least i had 9 hrs sleep in that way
SophiaSharon Larnia: nice
Yakuzza Lethecus: and part of the lecture was that we neeed at least 6-8hrs to get some boost on our memory
Yakuzza Lethecus: because that would only happen in the second stage after REM sleep
A deep restfulness that's missing...
Eliza Madrigal: I dreamt a funny idea last night... about dreaming... funny this comes up. Want to hear?
Eliza Madrigal: The idea is that deep sleep is necessary for optimal function, as Ya mentioned.... we go crazy without it... scatter, etc....
Eliza Madrigal: AND....
SophiaSharon Larnia: (knows a bit about this scatter from lack of REM sleep ahaha)
Eliza Madrigal: In daily life perhaps it is the same if we don't have the deeply, deeply rest quality....
Eliza Madrigal: there is a deep rest some never have....
Eliza Madrigal: that is ordinary, actually...
Eliza Madrigal: required :) Like REM
Eliza Madrigal: yes, so we need 'that' while awake too... not sure why this hit me as such a surprise...
Eliza Madrigal: but I thought that's what some relationships starve from
Eliza Madrigal nods to Ya.. true
SophiaSharon Larnia: relationships?
Eliza Madrigal: yes... a deep restfulness that's missing...
Eliza Madrigal: I know.. a serious idea so early this morning
Eliza Madrigal: Would any of you categorize yourselves as introverted/extroverted?
Fael Illyar: I used to call myself introverted but ... frankly, I don't know anymore :)
Eliza Madrigal: That's how I feel!
Fael Illyar: feels like that categorization doesn't apply well :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: no its situational
Fael Illyar: whichever pick you make, it's wrong :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: im definately introverted but forget myself at work
Eliza Madrigal: yes its strange... because I can also look at someone like Pema who seems to be always visiting, always travelling... and think he must be the definition of extroversion....
Yakuzza Lethecus: real life more introverted
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, context
Eliza Madrigal nods
Fael Illyar: more introverted in RL though.
Fael Illyar: breakthrough happening in SL for the moment. Likely a while before the change trickles to RL too :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: which is why i have thought something knew what it was doing when it placed me in my occupation :)
Eliza Madrigal: :))))
Fael Illyar smiles.
SophiaSharon Larnia: otherwise i may be ordering groceries online lol
--BELL--
Fael Illyar: never done that :)
Fael Illyar: even if I was quite anxious visiting the shop before I found PaB
Fael Illyar: whenever I left the house actually.
Eliza Madrigal: SL as a wormhole
Eliza Madrigal: I have ordered groceries online before :))
Yakuzza Lethecus: i hope so
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Yakuzza Lethecus: i mean the wormhole :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I find people far more energizing than I used to....
Eliza Madrigal: used to come away from even 'positive' interractions tired, drained
Fael Illyar: comes with acceptance :)
Eliza Madrigal: YES
Eliza Madrigal: Do you think that part of the reason pab retreaters are so instantly comfortable is that we DO cultivate that deep rest so necessary for bonding?
Fael Illyar: deep rest?
Eliza Madrigal: yes... as in sleep one requires deep sleep or else they become skittish... scattered....
Eliza Madrigal: can't settle
SophiaSharon Larnia: maybe in part Eliza, I think part of it is sharing ideas with others that are usually kept to oneself, or shared with few
Fael Illyar: the atmosphere here is very trusting.
Yakuzza Lethecus: actually the amount of retreats, 4 times a years, makes me a bit scared of those ppl whom aren´t attending those if they might still feel that they´re a part of it
Eliza Madrigal nods.. yes barriers already relaxed... hm, yes
Fael Illyar: and accepting.
Yakuzza Lethecus: since there isn´t symmetrie between all members anymore
Eliza Madrigal: that is part of growth, too, Ya... becomes harder to know everyone....
Fael Illyar: some might feel that but there's no helping that really.
Eliza Madrigal: but there are ways to keep it in mind and counter-balance
Eliza Madrigal: true, Fael
Fael Illyar: It is everyone own choice to not join the retreat
Fael Illyar: or join it
Eliza Madrigal nods... and if someone feels they can't 'go' to one.. maybe they could help organize one near their home...
Avatar:
SophiaSharon Larnia: but took some lines from the film to heart...as in... no one can teach you how to see
Eliza Madrigal: YES
Eliza Madrigal: That line struck immediately...
SophiaSharon Larnia: sighs
Eliza Madrigal: one looks around to see if others are smiling :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: lol
Fael Illyar: yep :=
Fael Illyar: :)
Eliza Madrigal: "I see you"...
Eliza Madrigal: :) Direct experience, immediacy
SophiaSharon Larnia: i dont think anyone can tell another how to see, but to help you open up to see that something is there to be seen
SophiaSharon Larnia: we need each other
Fael Illyar: meep! :)
Eliza Madrigal: that's a beautiful phrasing Sharon, yes
Connection through shared direct experience of underlying stillness
SophiaSharon Larnia: re: beleifs, what do you thing the connection between these ideas are Eliza?
SophiaSharon Larnia: think*
Eliza Madrigal: with avatar ideas, pab ideas, beliefs, views?
SophiaSharon Larnia: Eliza Madrigal: because beliefs are 'over there' or 'that person's idea/view'... not 'wrong' maybe 'right', but still not the same as experience/connection
SophiaSharon Larnia: is a connection formed by experience?
Eliza Madrigal: Ah :) My sense is hm... direct experience of underlying stillness
Eliza Madrigal: yes!
SophiaSharon Larnia: maybe that why pab memebers fell a connection in rl
SophiaSharon Larnia: feel*
Eliza Madrigal: So thinking is wonderful, and views are fascinating .. but richer and nourished by connection through the pauses... space
Eliza Madrigal: Sharon, yes....
Eliza Madrigal: or why you meet someone in other contexts and feel comfortable with them too
SophiaSharon Larnia: i have a strange experience to share, for me its strange
SophiaSharon Larnia: i was trying to write something and found my self critical self jumping up and down and yelling
SophiaSharon Larnia: and took a break by reading the chat logs
SophiaSharon Larnia: and ran across some rl pictures of people
SophiaSharon Larnia: and 'saw' them
SophiaSharon Larnia: like i wanted to reach into the picture and hold their arm
SophiaSharon Larnia: the self critical self retreated
SophiaSharon Larnia: enough so I could ignore it
SophiaSharon Larnia: it was interesting to me
Eliza Madrigal: How touching! Sharon, I'm so inspired.
Eliza Madrigal: Were you able to get into a flow then? enjoy the writing?
Eliza Madrigal: like tapping into tree of souls....
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, better, i was seeing people. not some vague notion
Eliza Madrigal: that's quite powerful, thank you for sharing that
SophiaSharon Larnia: for someone who is as introverted as I am, to find comfort in the idea of real live people, seeing theie faces nonthreatening
Eliza Madrigal: wow.. like getting to a soft spot...
2010.02.24 13:00 - Blue Avatars and Black Holes
Wol Euler: position does have a semantic meaning, though, here as in RL
Fefonz Quan: may i ask what does a semantic meaning mean?
Wol Euler: "it is information" :)
Wol Euler: sitting in a particular position relative to the group carries a meaning about how I see the group or myself or the relationship
Fefonz Quan: mick, all you see is blue in your mind, don't ya?
Mickorod Renard: ah well,,imagination is my strong point
Fefonz Quan: well weeing is everything, ain't it?
Fefonz Quan: seeing*
SophiaSharon Larnia: LOL
Mickorod Renard: weeing can be the most important time in the world,,if one is desperate
arabella Ella: or appreciating appearances perhaps
Mickorod Renard: hey,,Fef,,u may know the answer,,is a black hole a ball?
Fefonz Quan: (try saying it out loud)
Mickorod Renard: or sphere?
Fefonz Quan: ball i would say, the event horizon is a sphere
SophiaSharon Larnia: not a hole all the around, like your dream, Mick?
Mickorod Renard: so its a hole on all sides
Fefonz Quan: though is there a difference?
Wol Euler finds the idea of a three-dimensional hole somewhat mindboggling
arabella Ella: so then ... why is it called a hole if it is a mass?
SophiaSharon Larnia: i was going to ask why didnt they call it a black mass then
Mickorod Renard: is this an execptionally long 90 seconds?
Reflection Freenote: most of our conscious thought is not about what is present, for example, is what I am suggesting widget, although this is only one dimension of unreality
--BELL--
stevenaia Michinaga: I must be sleepy, I had a nap-like dream just then and you were in to speaking , Reflection