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Accepting all suffering: a how-to (2009.10.01 13:00)

Bertram Jacobus: yesterday i had a great insight : i could accept that suffering - as all - is unlimited ... :-)

Pema Pera: sorry, Bert, could you tell us more about that?

Bertram Jacobus: yes. sure. before i always had problems with that. because so i thought, no end of suffering would be possible ... but then i saw, that when one gets rid of the ego - thats a solution
Fael Illyar: what would it mean to get rid of the ego?
Bertram Jacobus: and my impression is, that ego comes up only in this life, at a certain age. don´t know when exactly. but little children or babies seem not to have it yet. so one can get rid of it again, too
Storm Nordwind remembers we mentioned something a little like this last week.
Paul Namiboo: Got to go -- duty calls, but thanks for the relaxation. Bye:)
Bertram Jacobus: to overcome it. to get part of all again. without hindrances. the wu wei state
Fael Illyar: Have fun Paul :)
Storm Nordwind: Bye Paul
Storm Nordwind waves
Pema Pera: bye Paul!
Bertram Jacobus: bye paul
Fael Illyar: Would Ego, as in your thoughts, be the separation of self and other?
Bertram Jacobus: i don´t make such a big difference between ego and self
Bertram Jacobus: and so in my understanding - yes, ego as well as self makes this difference
Bertram Jacobus: this separation (sry)
Bertram Jacobus: but i think, correct is the following : there is seperation as well as no seperation. relative and absolute sight or state
--BELL--
Fael Illyar: it exists but is impermanent
Bertram Jacobus: yes. aspects of the relative field ...
Storm Nordwind: Do you find, bert, that Play as Being practice is helpful to your realizing this?
Bertram Jacobus: ah
Bertram Jacobus: may be yes :-)
Storm Nordwind smiles

Storm Nordwind: Last week, Bert, I briefly mentioned the Buddhist idea of emptiness. And that if the apparent cause of the suffering and its recipient and the suffering itself were empty then it can help with patient acceptance.
Storm Nordwind: Hi there Yak , ara and Aidan
Bertram Jacobus: oh i see. thanks for the information storm !
Can Play as Being help us find reality just by making us stop?

Storm Nordwind: I like Play as Being's insistent reminder! Every 15 minutes I can be reminded to check what's really important, what's really real... all these things. Poking holes in illusion every 15 minutes! :)
Bertram Jacobus: for sake i´m not so disciplined ...
Bertram Jacobus: but the idea of this ultrashort meditations already is a great help
Storm Nordwind points out he said "can be" reminded, not always is! He is not always so disciplined either!
Bertram Jacobus: also when one does it only not regulary i think
Aidan Spiritor: nice to meet you too
Fael Illyar: I found that the bell sound, in itself, even without really noticing it was having an effect too.
Fael Illyar: after a long time of hearing it and doing the pauses
Storm Nordwind nods to Fael
Aidan Spiritor: I found your profile very interesting--as a former theoretical chemist and mathemarician
Fael Illyar: but it was an effect that didn't interrupt anything
Bertram Jacobus: sounds like a nice experience fael ... :-)
Storm Nordwind: It's a small ritual, at the very least. My wife and I were studying a practice that involves some ritual actions, words and thoughts, and she questioned whether the rituals were useful. But I said, "What else would you be doing instead of the ritual?" :)
arabella Ella: I feel that quite a few of us need to be more disciplined Bert :)

Bertram Jacobus: so disciplin "only" makes that we practise more may be ara ? or also in every mood --BELL--
Storm Nordwind: It's true that discipline means practising. But I believe it's wrong to think that Practice makes Perfect. I think instead that only Perfect Practice makes Perfect!
Gaya Serendipity grins.
arabella Ella: not sure what your question means Bert?
Bertram Jacobus: that discipline is not the only way to reach enlightenment ara ...
Fael Illyar would prefer "practise makes a master".
Bertram Jacobus: what is the difference between practise and perfect practise for you storm ? ... :-)
arabella Ella: i dont think i am well versed enough to reply to that Bert
Storm Nordwind: Perfect practice is what is appropriate for a particular person at the time with nothing inappropriate.
arabella Ella: perhaps it also involves what Socrates had said ... know yourself? 

Bertram Jacobus: but storm - may i ask some question to some words from you before ? : what does "illusion" mean to you please ?
Bolonath Crystal: namaste @ all :)
Gaya Serendipity: Hello Bolonath :)
Mickorod Renard: hi Bol
Fael Illyar: Hello Bolonath :)
Storm Nordwind: Hello Bolonath
Bertram Jacobus: hey bolonath ! :-)
arabella Ella: Hiya Bolonath
Bertram Jacobus: fael - same topic : from a "absolute state" that all may be called "wrong" - from a relative one that is not necessairily so i think -
Mickorod Renard: I am anoyed I wont get to sit in on the Phenemology sessions
Storm Nordwind: Illusion, Bert, means anything that is not real to me, or something that appears real but on deeper examination holds no reality, or something that prevents me from seeing reality.
Storm Nordwind loves Weird Al :)
Fael Illyar: Bertram, I think the key in the sentence is that if you take something to be certain, it's wrong. It's not knowing without being certain :)
Aidan Spiritor: such as the illusion of a self in the conventional sense?
Bertram Jacobus: you have an example for something which seems not to be real when one examimes it storm ?
Fael Illyar smiles.
Gaya Serendipity: @.@ ... reads what Fael said again ...
Bertram Jacobus: smiles at fael ... :-)
Aidan Spiritor: reflection in a mirror but is not "a real face"
Storm Nordwind: That might be the case Aidan. I am refering specifically to how a very short but very regular meditation sessions can help one with mindfulness
Pema Pera: I'd love to hear from Aidan about his interests in philosophy and comparative religion (re: his RL profile part)
Aidan Spiritor: seems real ..but is not..
Fael Illyar: (more accurately, the certainty is what's wrong about it)
Storm Nordwind agrees with Pema :)
Fael Illyar: not necessarily anything else.
Bertram Jacobus: nice example aidan ...

 

A duet on non-duality (2009.10.01 19:00)

 

Paradise Tennant: well .. we could talk about duality
stevenaia Michinaga: if you can make me understand the concept :)
<place w:st="on">Paradise</place> Tennant: whether or not observation diminishes the illusion
Paradise Tennant: lol
stevenaia Michinaga: that second one sounds yummy
Paradise Tennant: well thinking there is more than a one .. a two .. a right a wrong .. a me a you ..
<place w:st="on">Paradise</place> Tennant: :) illusion
stevenaia Michinaga: ok
Paradise Tennant: yes
Paradise Tennant: * is
stevenaia Michinaga: lets start with duality, sounds more basic
Paradise Tennant: maybe come up with examples of dualistic thinking
stevenaia Michinaga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duality
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
<place w:st="on">Paradise</place> Tennant: nonduality implies that things appear distinct when they are not really separate
Paradise Tennant: sums it up nicely
Paradise Tennant: thanks steve !
stevenaia Michinaga: it seems it's just a start
Paradise Tennant: you and I think of ourselves as separate beings when on a big picture basis we are part of just one thing
Paradise Tennant: nonduality kind of banishes the concept of loneliness :)
<place w:st="on">Paradise</place> Tennant: not possible
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Paradise Tennant: really
stevenaia Michinaga: wonders about that
Paradise Tennant: duality and dichotomy are illusory phenomena
stevenaia Michinaga: on one hand I have never been alone, on the other I have always been in a relationship
stevenaia Michinaga: (lonely)
Paradise Tennant: so dualisms such as self/other good/evil passive/active are illusory
Paradise Tennant: hmm
stevenaia Michinaga: but can you have one without the other?
stevenaia Michinaga: seems dualism creates balance
Paradise Tennant: contrast ..it creates contrast like the shadows in one big painting
--BELL--
stevenaia Michinaga: a painting w/o shadow (plenty of modern art I have seen has mono-colour canvases attempts to eliminate dualism, pretty boring, huh
stevenaia Michinaga: so why is dualism illusionary, seems that is a very rich illusion
Paradise Tennant: yes
Paradise Tennant: makes it interesting engages our emotions ..captures us
Paradise Tennant: creativity .. would be difficult without dualism
stevenaia Michinaga: nods
Paradise Tennant: on one level only though
stevenaia Michinaga: listens..,
Paradise Tennant: I think if you were going to try to understand totality it is all that ever was and all that will ever be all at once really so a kind of cosmic creativity that is much richer than dualistic creativity
Paradise Tennant: an infinite faceted prism .. whereby dualistic thought is only one reflection of
Paradise Tennant: sorry a prism with an infinite number of facets :) is what I meant
stevenaia Michinaga: did you mean dualism is one facet of "Totality"
Paradise Tennant: hmm what do you think
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: Just checking meanings
stevenaia Michinaga: it makes sense
stevenaia Michinaga: in that context
Paradise Tennant: nonduality is already part of us .....
Paradise Tennant: in every moment
--<place w:st="on"><city w:st="on">BELL</city></place>--
Paradise Tennant: realization of it .. is the point of becoming aware...
<place w:st="on">Paradise</place> Tennant: :)
<place w:st="on">Paradise</place> Tennant: shall we talk about your building now ..
<place w:st="on">Paradise</place> Tennant: lol
Paradise Tennant: how is coming along
stevenaia Michinaga: mind is swimming in non-duality
stevenaia Michinaga: I have a tutor mentor
Paradise Tennant: very spacious non duality .. lots of room to swim
Paradise Tennant: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: I assisted her in RL with building, seems only fair she return the favor in SL
stevenaia Michinaga: of course I assisted her virtually in RL :)
<place w:st="on">Paradise</place> Tennant: :)) cool
Paradise Tennant: nice to have help
Paradise Tennant: wonderfully creative .. sl
stevenaia Michinaga: one of the reason we all her here, assistance
Paradise Tennant: yes
stevenaia Michinaga: here
Paradise Tennant: sometimes view it as escapism
stevenaia Michinaga: others call it creativity
Paradise Tennant: yes
stevenaia Michinaga: speaking of creativity, now comes the best part... naming the evenings log :)
stevenaia Michinaga: Best
Paradise Tennant: :)
<place w:st="on">Paradise</place> Tennant: hmm
Paradise Tennant: what would you call it
stevenaia Michinaga: I usually try to take something from the log
stevenaia Michinaga: them rethink it and adjust it in the morning :)
stevenaia Michinaga: then
Paradise Tennant: mind is swimming in nonduality
stevenaia Michinaga: swimming in nonduality

Naturally Empty: the perfectly pure mind (2009.10.03 01:00)

Scathach Rhiadra: ok, how about naturalness
Bertrum Quan: Okay-- what is your general definition?
Scathach Rhiadra: that is the problem I don't really have one, it is such a vast and vague subject
Scathach Rhiadra: it is the new topicfor the Ways of Knowing workshop
Scathach Rhiadra: I am trying to get some connection to it, but most of the suggestions have been about the natural world, or some ideas which seem to be good for debate and opinion..
Scathach Rhiadra: I suppose I can only think of the nature of mind, our true nature, which does not fit in with the other suggestions
--BELL--
Bertrum Quan: Natural mind...
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Bertrum Quan: Your sense of "natural" is far more "global" (and compelling to me) than the different views of the natural world.
Scathach Rhiadra: how so?

Bertrum Quan: Is the empty mind the natural mind?
Scathach Rhiadra: (Qt we have just begun to discuss naturalness)
Qt Core: ok
Scathach Rhiadra: I would say so, or maybe the emptiness of mind, which is real knowing awareness
Qt Core: so... does empty mind exist in nature ? i don't think, in "live" situation it is always hit by multiple inputs
Scathach Rhiadra: empty mind does not mean without thought or perception, but being more immediately present, and not going with the thoughts, if that makes sense
Bertrum Quan: If one assumes that "noise" of all types are add-ons, the empty mind is one that get back to the beginning. And I would say it does exist...
Qt Core: that nice state abruptly broken when you recognize it and wonder whyt you aren't worrying about job/money/S.O./ and such ?
Scathach Rhiadra listens
--BELL--
Bertrum Quan: Perhaps QT that absence of worries about job, money, etc. is a characteristic...
Bertrum Quan: And a global level (not on a literal day-to-day level) the worries are noise--things/thoughts that fill and distract the mind from awareness.
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Bertrum Quan: If one makes that case that our day-to-day, literal thought process is unnatural--filled with "noise" and illusion--that natural mind is empty.
Bertrum Quan: then natural mind is empty.
Bertrum Quan: It is a perfect, pure state of awareness...
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: always present, if we could just rest in it
Qt Core: rethorical (or not) question... but what is good at a empty mind ? in a naturalistic way isn't it a tool to plan/solve worry about mundane things and survive better ?
Qt Core: brb
Bertrum Quan: Scath, what is the focus of your Ways of Knowing conversation?
Scathach Rhiadra: well it is about contemplative traditions in a broad sense...
Scathach Rhiadra: we covered Buddhist topics mostly, Ethics, co-dependant arising (the last topic), and are now moving on to Naturalness
Scathach Rhiadra: it is Stim Morane's workshop

Qt Core: sorry have to go, interesting topic, btw
Scathach Rhiadra: have a good day Qt:)
Bertrum Quan: Bye QT.
Qt Core: Ciao
Bertrum Quan: What's Stim's take on Naturalness?
--BELL--
Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, he has not said much yet, but from previous conversations I would say it is the true or complete nature of the person or life, completeness
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey you both
Yakuzza Lethecus: anyone know if somebody logged my session yesterday ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: i came home to late
Yakuzza Lethecus: and everyone was gone at 2 pm
Scathach Rhiadra: he suggested sort of class presentations, and started a list of possible takes on Naturalness, I am at a bit of a loss
Scathach Rhiadra: good morning Yakuzza
Bertrum Quan: Hi Yak.
Scathach Rhiadra: strangely enough, I have a DVD set of teachings on the desk in front of me, it is called 'Mahamudra: the Natural Mind', but I don't think that would go down too well:)
Bertrum Quan: Why not?
Scathach Rhiadra: oh most of the suggestions are about what is natural v unnatural, even one suggestion about genetic modification I think, is it natural, things like that
Scathach Rhiadra: more about the life around us It seems to me
Scathach Rhiadra: (sorry Yakuzza, was not here yesterdy, so don't know who took the log)
Yakuzza Lethecus: np

Bertrum Quan: In tother words, at this juncture the focus is on a more day-to-day sense of life as we know it.   Natural mind it seems to me, attempts to get the global issue--perhaps we might say--the life of the mind...
Scathach Rhiadra nods, listens
--BELL--

Bertrum Quan: I think you should bring your idea to the group. It deepens the conversation.

Absolutely creative: beyond habit and genetics (2009.10.03 07:00 -The "know-nothing" mind)

sophia Placebo: do you belive in tabula rasa ? :P i was checking your profile
Reflection Freenote: only as a reference for my FL;-)

Reflection Freenote: actually, I think genetics are very hard to cope with
sophia Placebo: in one day
sophia Placebo: but not hard over years me thinks ,specially if we are not talking about some disability
Reflection Freenote: well almost anything *is* possible
Reflection Freenote: but most people are imprisoned, I think, never to be released
sophia Placebo: inprisoned by what ?
Reflection Freenote: by their given natures
sophia Placebo: how much would creativity help in this situation ?
Reflection Freenote: creativity is an absolute solution:))
Reflection Freenote: hello paul
sophia Placebo: :)
sophia Placebo: hello paul
Paul Namiboo: Hello folks :)
sophia Placebo: so why many poeple are stil imprisioned ?
Reflection Freenote: because creativity is rare
Paul Namiboo: Our school systems tend to kill it
Reflection Freenote: the machine of civilization is suspicious of creativity, unless it comes from the sanctioned sources
Reflection Freenote: hello bertram
sophia Placebo: hi bert
Bertram Jacobus: hello everybody :-)
Paul Namiboo: Heelo Bertram
Bertram Jacobus: quite quiet meeting today ? ;-)
sophia Placebo: what sanctioned source ?
Bertram Jacobus: ?
Reflection Freenote: there are many of those. universities, institutions tied to governments, religions 

 

Bertram Jacobus: a question regarding to the beginning of your talk : what exactly does tabula rasa mean here and how can one believe in it ?

sophia Placebo: Tabula rasa (Latin: blank slate) refers to the epistemological thesis that individuals are born without built-in mental content and that their knowledge comes from experience and perception. Generally proponents of the tabula rasa thesis favor the "nurture" side of the nature versus nurture debate, when it comes to aspects of one's personality, social and emotional behavior and intelligence. wiki
Reflection Freenote: a very attractive sim, and only nice people:)) (well the occasional griefer excepted)
Bertram Jacobus: i saw it in your profile. yes reflection. and as a reference to fl in sl i understand that now. ty :-)
Reflection Freenote: yes, indeed sophia, although as we mentioned earlier, I am the opposite of a proponent of the epistemological thesis attached to the term;-)
Reflection Freenote: I tend to believe that we are all mostly robots (well cyborgs, actually) ;-)
Paul Namiboo: As a geneticist I tend toward the nrutrue hypothesis -- much of what is assigned by people as DNA-based is probably in-womb experience
Paul Namiboo: nurture
Reflection Freenote: I wouldn't consider inutero environment to really qualify as nurture practically speaking
Bertram Jacobus: strange : isn´t it both ? genetics AND experiences ? for me that´s obvious ...
Reflection Freenote: as a psychologist I have enormous respect for the recalcitrance of simple biology
Paul Namiboo: that's perfectly true -- you nomrally can't separate them any more than you can say whether length or width contributes more to the area of a triangle
Paul Namiboo: rectangle -- I am tired
sophia Placebo: :)
Paul Namiboo: Sob. RL calls. Been nice and relaxing talking to you you guys. Thanks. Bye
Reflection Freenote: of course, I agree about the nteraction, although people tend to see themselves as free agents, and that is simple illusion
Reflection Freenote: so long paul
sophia Placebo: bye paul nice to have with us !
--BELL--
sophia Placebo: agree re free agent is an illusion
Bertram Jacobus: but the pure conciousness seems to be free reflections, don´t you also think so ?
Bertram Jacobus: and sophia :-)
sophia Placebo: if pure enough
Reflection Freenote: well, I think we have the capacity to seek consciousness, if that is what you mean Bert
Bertram Jacobus: no. i did not mean that. i wanted to point that there is something which seems to be free.
Reflection Freenote: I think I am only free when I do something "freely" that I don't want to do
Bertram Jacobus: i did not refere to the will ...
sophia Placebo: free from what and for what ? do we have it already or we should gain it ?
Bertram Jacobus: will seems not to be free. there i agree ;-)
Reflection Freenote: so bertram are you referring to variability and "randomness" then?
Bertram Jacobus: free from all to be free sophia. and if the pure conciousness is so, we may have it already, yes
Reflection Freenote: by pure consciousness, what do you mean bert?
Bertram Jacobus: no again reflections. i only wanted to mention the pure conciousness as a may be free aspect in life. but variability and randomness are very interesting topics, for sure - and
Bertram Jacobus: i mean pure conciousness a conciousness free from all contens as thoughts, feelings, perceptions. a often used picture for that is a mirror. another one space
Reflection Freenote: yes, the "know-nothing" mind
Reflection Freenote: paradoxically such pure awareness tends to be attained only with rigorous practice an self-discipline
Bertram Jacobus: (contents*)
Bertram Jacobus: i think that is because of the very stong habits
Reflection Freenote: and it is the freedom of being compelled, or controlled externally, and so is the freedom to simply "be"
Reflection Freenote: freedom of *not* being compelled, that is
Bertram Jacobus: yes. to be is another aspect which i also had in mind in relation to freedom ... :-)
Reflection Freenote: and yes, habits, built, layer upon layer upon genetic and biological givens, I think
sophia Placebo nods
--BELL--
sophia Placebo: and habits is somewhere oppsite to creativity ? or somewhere along side with self decipline ?
Reflection Freenote: I think habits can be conduscive to creativity, but mostly are not
Reflection Freenote: so, I can have habits which help to induce awareness, like meditative skills for example
sophia Placebo: true
Reflection Freenote: but mostly our habits are compulsions responding reflexively to illusory "necessities", I believe
sophia Placebo nods
Reflection Freenote: but even good habits can be a trap. There is a saying, "if you meet the buddha on the road, slay him"
sophia Placebo: :)
sophia Placebo: habits , the good one is a method to reach some goal
Reflection Freenote: yes
Reflection Freenote: an accurate goal
sophia Placebo: not a gaol in themselves , but if we take them as a goal they would be trap
Reflection Freenote: yes:)) I think so
Reflection Freenote: we idolize our own habits, I think. We identify with them.
Reflection Freenote: We think of them often, as "us"
sophia Placebo: tradition and such
Reflection Freenote: I am the kind of a person that does "this or that" and so reduce myself from an infinite potential to a commodity to be bought and sold
sophia Placebo: no half solutions guy ? :)
Reflection Freenote: oh, I am mostly very pragmatic (but this is a world of mind);-)
sophia Placebo: :)
Reflection Freenote: thank you for a pleasant conversation:)), not that I have any very specific thoughts about things;-)
sophia Placebo: :) thank you ! its been lovely to have you here today
--BELL--
sophia Placebo: please come again :)
Reflection Freenote: I will, thanks sophia:))
Reflection Freenote: so long bert
Bertram Jacobus: cu reflections ! :-)
sophia Placebo: bye reflection 

 

Waking up to second nature: Tarmel and Pema reflect on life after retreat

Tarmel Udimo: but its like all my parts have come together and I am no longer in need of reassurance about Being
Pema Pera: too bad we dont' have a tp in RL, Doug
stevenaia Michinaga: Princeton is just a bit closer than Malta
Tarmel Udimo: that would be great pema
Pema Pera: wow, Tarmel, glad to hear that!
Pema Pera: can you say (even) more?
stevenaia Michinaga: Droping doubts, Tarmel?
Eos Amaterasu: I am also wowed by that, Tarmel!
Tarmel Udimo: yes well you did kind of ZAP me Pema:)
doug Sosa: Inhawaii week before till 3rd.
Pema Pera: Hawaii is on our list for RL retreats, Doug, in July perhaps
Pema Pera: you mean, walking back from the restaurant, Tarmel?
--BELL--
Tarmel Udimo: well yes that as well as the whole retreat of course but mainly then... oral transmission of some kind:)
Pema Pera: do you want to describe what happened?
Tarmel Udimo: Well essentially Pema joined myself, Corvi and Fefonz for a final bite in Berkely?
Tarmel Udimo: and then walked with us to the station.
Tarmel Udimo: During that walk Pema basically bombarded me with the need to 'wake' up
Tarmel Udimo: That was it really quite a simple everyday activity... but coupled with the retreat I think something shifted...
Tarmel Udimo: What about you Eos, you mentioned ripples?
Pema Pera: I basically asked Tarmel when she wanted to "wake up", pointing out that it couldn't possibly take time :-)
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Eos Amaterasu: The RL retreat was more meaningful and lasting than anticipated - I mean, was kind of an experiment
Tarmel Udimo: :)
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Eos Amaterasu: and the retreat time itself had a kind of vividness
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Eos Amaterasu: but I keep noticing/encountering that just doing this, whether 9secs or 90 or random or longer, whenever,
Eos Amaterasu: actually "works" - it's just enough, and it keeps disclosing more
Eos Amaterasu: it's also affected the cross SL/RL boundary
Pema Pera: yes, it grows on itself, doesn't it
doug Sosa: part of the 9 sec seems to me that one can experience one is is in it because there is not in it experience at both ends. whereas
doug Sosa: i normal meditation the "in it" is so long that the contrast is not so evident.
Pema Pera: interesting point, Doug!
Tarmel Udimo: not sure if I got it?
Eos Amaterasu: also done in little dots it can become or be more normal
Pema Pera: second nature, yes
Pema Pera: like breathing almost
doug Sosa: its like if a vacation were a year long, he contrast between vacation and not vaction would dissapear from consciousness.
Pema Pera: Tarmel, Doug pointed to the transitions, in and out of the 9 seconds
Tarmel Udimo: OK
Pema Pera: whereas transitions in and out of half an hour of meditation are less frequent
doug Sosa: and less clear.
Tarmel Udimo: nods

 Pema Pera: for me an important effect of the retreat has been that it somehow produced a much stronger connection between the 9-sec practice and my normal practice that I was already engaged in
Tarmel Udimo: yes?
doug Sosa: we are talking of the santa cruz retreat?
Tarmel Udimo: in what way?
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: integrating more my regular daily practice into a momen-to-moment sense during the day
Tarmel Udimo: nods
doug Sosa: i need to go at the bell.
Pema Pera: (as I told *you* to do, I guess it backfired!!)
--BELL--
stevenaia Michinaga: enjoy dinner
Tarmel Udimo: hehe
Pema Pera: (be carefull what you wish to others, hehe)
Tarmel Udimo: well I am glad it backfired if that was the case:)
Pema Pera: :)
Tarmel Udimo: its strange it feels less about practice and more about just being present
Pema Pera: the whole spirit of PaB is very close to that of wu-wei, not-doing, yes, Tarmel
Pema Pera: letting it be, letting it happen
Pema Pera: not trying to interfere
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Pema Pera: yet being alert and present
Pema Pera: watching
stevenaia Michinaga: I enjoy the opportunities to turn my thinking inside out, be it for 9 or 90 seconds and as the day moves on

Being schooled: approaches with respect and compassion

Eos Amaterasu: it's a broad topic - integrating compassionate ethics into education - but think that's where the short PaB sessions can make that real in everyday life
Eos Amaterasu: at least re connecting where such an ethics comes from
Pema Pera: yes, ethics is all about integration
Fox Monacular: it's also a loaded topic, since there are many religious backgrounds... and the whole hostility between atheists and believers... we have a long way to go to develop a sensitive approach
Eos Amaterasu: yes, so it has to be accessible either thru or without such lenses
Pema Pera: yes, PaB is an attempt to go beyond the divide
Fox Monacular: nods
Tarmel Udimo: so what would that look like? intergrating compassionate ethics into education?
Fox Monacular: good question:)
I brought up the ideal of the Kira Institute (http://kira.org).
Pema Pera: Kira is a modest attempt in that direction . . . .
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Pema Pera: educating from a base attitude of respect rather than competition
Tarmel Udimo: OK
Fox Monacular: in some schools they do 15 mins of transcendental meditation before classes... they found that it reduces aggressivity and improves relashionships between pupils and teachers
Fox Monacular: yes
Tarmel Udimo: OH
Pema Pera: The vision I had, and still have, is that Kira could grow into a kind of "university based on respect"
stevenaia Michinaga: the insecurities of humanity creates that competition
Pema Pera: interesting, Fox
Fox Monacular: university based on respect:) how great!
Fox Monacular: actually TM in schools is promoted by David Lynch foundations
Eos Amaterasu: One aspect is that of ethics coming from Being rather than from rules, prescriptions for actions
Pema Pera: So there are Catholic Universities, Black Universities, Buddhist Universities; Kira's possible goal would be a University based not on a creed or a subgroup, but on respect
Pema Pera: YES, Eos!
Tarmel Udimo: to achieve this would take some kind of training as outlined by Eos
Fox Monacular: The question is: how many people are actually ready for this:)
Tarmel Udimo: my question too
Eos Amaterasu: so in a way ethics in education means that we students :-) also learn, practice getting or not getting away from being
Pema Pera: respect, like in PaB; that is one thing PaB and Kira have in common, even while there are many differences. We don't respond with "I disagree!" but with "interesting, can you tell me more, so we can compare notes?"
Pema Pera: perhaps more than we think, Fox -- most people have never even gotten exposed!
Pema Pera: yes, Eos, very much so
Pema Pera: we are all students together, learning from each other
Fox Monacular: you know, sometimes I find that with my friends, my teachers, my family we have some common understanding of these thigs, there;s PaB, there;s Kira... and then I go out for a drink and find out that people are still homophobic, or still rant that religion is the root of all evil...
Eos Amaterasu: It's bringing it into the everyday that's a challenge
Fox Monacular: and I find that I don't know what to answer to such things anymore... because I have incorporated certain things as true and good and obvious 

 

stevenaia Michinaga: why is "respect" such a dificult concept, why do people think they loose something by respecting others (who may disagree)
Fox Monacular: yes, exactly
Eos Amaterasu: they feel threatened
stevenaia Michinaga: seems to be a fence the place around themslves
Fox Monacular: if they feel threatened, does it imply they are insecure in their own worldview?
Eos Amaterasu: Well, if something questions their worldview they feel threatened - we do too :-)
Eos Amaterasu: At least for an instant :-)
Tarmel Udimo: its an emotional response that unfortuantely is triggered and often the person has no control.. or even awareness of the need for control
Pema Pera: we draw back from what we are into what we have -- a movement largely built on fear, a defense reaction; PaB gently tries to undo that
Tarmel Udimo: and is fear based,
Pema Pera: yes, Eos, and it's fun to watch that, isn't it, in ourselves!
Tarmel Udimo: agree with pema
Fox Monacular: yes, I know!

Fox Monacular: I get into very heated debates with my brother in law who is in evolutionary psychology
Fox Monacular: and I often observe myself becoming very emotional and defensive...:)
stevenaia Michinaga: having compassion for someone does not mean you necessarily share their view or lifestyle, compassion does not diminish or threaten
Fox Monacular: that's right, and that is why compassion is like a muscle that needs to be built gradually
Eos Amaterasu: as does our own sense of being able to let go
Tarmel Udimo: nods being right is no longer important
Fox Monacular: Dalai Lama gave an example today of a Tibetan monk who was in Chinese concentration camps for 20 years, was then released, and was asked what was the greatest danger that he faced in the goulags. He responded that the greatest danger was losing his compassion towards the Chinese
Pema Pera: that's a profound reaction, Fox . . . .
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Fox Monacular: that's a high degree of compassion training...!
Tarmel Udimo: yes talk about one pointed focus in a lifetime:)
Fox Monacular: I'm from Russia, and there were memberst of my family that were victims of the Stalinist regime, and the new regime is also quite bloody, and even now, in Canada, I sometimes have real anger buld up, even though I directly didn't saw anything evil myself... but have family members who suffered
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Fox Monacular: even to just imagine being compassionate towards some people of the government is hard for me... although in theory I know why I should
Eos Amaterasu: I've found that people with concentration camp and similar histories can still relate very humanely to individual people
Eos Amaterasu: the question is about the "systems" the "oppressors" belong to
Pema Pera: I have a similar experience, Fox, growing up soon after the second world war, and hearing stories about the German occupation of Holland; probably not as brutal as in your case, but nonetheless incredibly brutal for those who were directly affected
Eos Amaterasu: and we sometimes find ourselves belonging to such oppressive systems
Pema Pera: and indeed, some people could cope with it remarkabl well
Eos Amaterasu: that's the challenge for ethics
Fox Monacular: yes, in theory I understand. but when I introspectively observe myself, I know I can't quite help feeling strong emotion
Pema Pera: "unconditional" is what is being tested in compassion under such circumstances
Fox Monacular: yes, exactly
stevenaia Michinaga: certain aspects of compassion are as blind as some aspects of love
Pema Pera: yes, Fox, and the challenge is NOT to suppress or deny or wish away those emotions, but to include them in what you feel compassion about -- if you don't look at your own reactions in an inclusive compassionate way you cannot possibly be compassionate toward others
Tarmel Udimo: well said Pema
Tarmel Udimo: and the only way to deal with it

Eos Amaterasu: I have to leave, but just want to say that Eliza and I have been talking about having a book club or something similar about Francisco Varela's "Ethical Know-How", a very short book which I believe talks about ethics from Being
Pema Pera: what you really are goes beyond your emotions; emotions are tools or ornaments to work with and polish
Tarmel Udimo: grest topic Eos
Eos Amaterasu: (I believe based on having read it twice :-)
Tarmel Udimo: And true enough Pema
Pema Pera: great idea, Eos!