2014.09.29 13:00 - Locating our Buddha nature

The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by

Aphrodite Macbain: Eliza!!!
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Aph :)
Aphrodite Macbain: How wonderful to see you
Eliza Madrigal: you as well, so nice for the stars to align
Aphrodite Macbain: I feel so much out of touch with the group
Eliza Madrigal: I think everyone feels that way
Aphrodite Macbain: and was sorry to miss the Guardians' meeting
Eliza Madrigal: so you're in touch with the group feeling
Aphrodite Macbain: :-) that's something at least
Eliza Madrigal: :) we talked about how nice it is that you announce your topic ahead of time
Aphrodite Macbain: Well- I think people need something meaty to discuss if they are going to come
Aphrodite Macbain: It's becoming a bit of a challenge to come up with something new though!
Eliza Madrigal: we've talked about so much over the years
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Eliza Madrigal: feel like topics are just the straw man chance at unexpected happenings
Aphrodite Macbain: Hard to come up with something fresh
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Druth :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Welcome druth!
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm glad you persisted!
Eliza Madrigal saw druth signing on and off too
druth Vlodovic: using exodus actually, firestorm was determined to send me out into the sunlight
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Eliza Madrigal: I'm uninstalling SL from this computer today, to install on another - hoping for no issues
Aphrodite Macbain: What is exodus? Never heard of it
Eliza Madrigal: nor I
Aphrodite Macbain: sounds biblical
druth Vlodovic: 3rd party viewer, lower system requirements, less functionality
Eliza Madrigal: not a strong sale there Druth :)
Aphrodite Macbain: and doesn't crash as easily ?
druth Vlodovic: "it works" is plenty of sale in SL sometimes :P
Eliza Madrigal grins
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: Can you update me on the Guardian discussions I keep missing Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: we haven't had very many, Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: this past Saturday....
Eliza Madrigal: last time we just agreed that Sat 2pm is a better time to try to meet
Aphrodite Macbain: he he
Aphrodite Macbain: It sure is for me.
Eliza Madrigal: and that we still all like seeing each other
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Eliza Madrigal: so we need more excuses
druth Vlodovic: two major breakthroughs, it sounds to me
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, and I was thinking of taking my session to a diff setting on Thursday, just because I'd like a change
Aphrodite Macbain: setting? what time?
Eliza Madrigal: I'll keep map open to see if anyone comes to pavilion who wouldn't have gotten group notice
Eliza Madrigal: 1pm, like this
Eliza Madrigal: no major changes or projects in the group though
Aphrodite Macbain: weren't you doing 1pm Thursdays already?
druth Vlodovic: maybe get alfred to make a "venue change" teleporter to put in the pavilion for these occasions
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ari
druth Vlodovic: hi ari
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Ari- good to see you!
Arisia Vita: greetings
Eliza Madrigal: yes I was doing Thursdays already, but just talking about how/where sitting
Eliza Madrigal: I may get bored of doing that after a few weeks so wouldn't want to trouble Alfred :)
Aphrodite Macbain: ah- your location within the pavilion
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal goes to read Aph's email...
druth Vlodovic: you can buy a tp door, maybe set it up next to the fountain with a note

Eliza Madrigal: (or trap door? @Druth) :)
druth Vlodovic: :P
Aphrodite Macbain: OK.   Let's start. Here's what I said in my email:
Aphrodite Macbain: One of the aims of PaB is to explore experiential perception, achieved through practicing the act letting go of (dropping) our thoughts. As was said in one of the OF sessions, "The more our perception is attacked intellectually, the more it is hidden; like the mouse hiding under the cupboards in the corner when the kitchen light is on."

How do we let go of our thoughts and perceive another kind of state of being? Is this even possible? Is there another state of being? Can we ever separate thought from experience? I have no answers but maybe we can talk about some possible one

Aphrodite Macbain: Can we ever separate thought from experience?
Aphrodite Macbain: In Zen the intention of dropping our brain chatter is to find our "true self"
Eliza Madrigal: I rarely look at it like dropping thought altogether...more like entertaining different textures of thought...some of which are more subtle and spacious
Eliza Madrigal: maybe to make room for the latter, the former can be put on hold a bit
Aphrodite Macbain: what does that look like Eliza?
Aphrodite Macbain: Can you say what u mean by textures of thought and spaciousness?
Eliza Madrigal: taste like... like trying different foods
Eliza Madrigal: not just the familiar maybe
Aphrodite Macbain: new thoughts?
Eliza Madrigal nods... sometimes
druth Vlodovic: or new styles of thought processes

Eliza Madrigal: nice way of saying that, Druth
Aphrodite Macbain: Zen says that trying to use reason and logic to find ourselves doesn't work
Arisia Vita: pls welcome my friend Laura
druth Vlodovic: hi friend laura
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Laura. Welcome
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Laura , nice to meet you
Laura Azalee: hi all
Laura Azalee: nice to meet you
Aphrodite Macbain: Please join us and grab a cushion
Aphrodite Macbain: Has Ari explained what we are all about?
Eliza Madrigal: lovely mermaid gown
Arisia Vita: not yet :)
Aphrodite Macbain: our conversations are recorded and put on a wiki, is that OK with you?
Laura Azalee: Ari shared a wiki link, and i thought it could be interesting
Arisia Vita: I did mention that part :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Please grab a note card from that box behind druth which explains what we are about
Aphrodite Macbain: we are talking about ways to find ourselves-our true selves
Aphrodite Macbain: not through logic but through feeling and experience
Eliza Madrigal: one phrase from a Zen sutra is "thought that is nowhere supported"
Laura Azalee: wow..that is quite a task
Arisia Vita: we often aim high :)
Aphrodite Macbain: indeed it is! It takes a lifetime, usually :-)
Eliza Madrigal: or myriad
Aphrodite Macbain: lifetimes? yes :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Laura Azalee: well...according to Zen there is no self at all, so basically, there is nothing to find!
Eliza Madrigal: what kinds of thoughts would no self have? heheh
Arisia Vita: well said Laura
Aphrodite Macbain: Nods. Indeed. locating our "Buddha nature" Zen teachings about this are often explained through a koan - koans being stories or problems that dont work by using reason
Laura Azalee: well... thoughts are often compared to passing clouds.. you can't say the sky "has" the clouds
Aphrodite Macbain: no- clouds are constantly changing too
Laura Azalee: yes i know what they are, I studied Zen for a few years, but I followed the Soto tradition

Aphrodite Macbain: then we have much to learn from you Laura :-)
Laura Azalee: Ooh... no no
Laura Azalee: I'm not that expert lol
Arisia Vita: good :)
Arisia Vita: "Expert" opinions are as common as grains of wheat, and just as needful of a thrashing.
Eliza Madrigal: not sticky
druth Vlodovic: so thoughts are a separate being which wanders past us
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, Dogen :)
Arisia Vita: Souls cross ages like clouds cross skies, and though a cloud's shape or hue or size changes, it's still a cloud and so is a soul. Who can say where the cloud came from or who the soul will be tomorrow? Only the atlas of clouds. - Cloud Atlas
Laura Azalee: yes Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: PaB is a secular group, so with many traditions in and out of play
Aphrodite Macbain: We are so used to being rational and logical, but sometimes it doesn't work when we are trying to find our self or nature
Laura Azalee: I agree Ari... too many people think they know everything
Aphrodite Macbain: But do they feel everything?
Eliza Madrigal: "intimacy with all things" surely can't be an expert stance... more stance of unknowing
Laura Azalee: yes...
Eliza Madrigal: but with attention, right? I mean, if you've been with someone a long time and they don't know certain things you may not be as open?

druth Vlodovic: or they may not have unbiased perception

Aphrodite Macbain: I thought it might be fun to discuss a Zen koan that might help illustrate this theory of unknowing. Would you like to see it?
Arisia Vita: sure Aph
Laura Azalee: yes
druth Vlodovic: please
Eliza Madrigal: yes Aph
Aphrodite Macbain:

       Is That So?

The Zen master Hakuin was praised by his neighbours as one living a pure life.
A beautiful Japanese girl whose parents owned a food store lived near him. Suddenly, without any warning, her parents discovered she was with child.
This made her parents angry. She would not confess who the man was, but after much harassment at last named Hakuin. In great anger the parents went to the master. "Is that so?" was all he would say.
After the child was born it was brought to Hakuin. By this time he had lost his reputation, which did not trouble him, but he took very good care of the child. He obtained milk from his neighbours and everything else he needed.
A year later the girl-mother could stand it no longer. She told her parents the truth - the real father of the child was a young man who worked in the fishmarket.

The mother and father of the girl at once went to Hakuin to ask forgiveness, to apologize at length, and to get the child back.
Hakuin was willing. In yielding the child, all he said was: "Is that so?"

Aphrodite Macbain: That's it
Arisia Vita: a wise man
Eliza Madrigal: :) I always think what it was like for that child to be raised for that time by such a detached man
Aphrodite Macbain: what made him wise Ari?

Arisia Vita: asking the question "is that so?"
druth Vlodovic: avoiding third string suffering
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: Detached in what way Eliza?
Laura Azalee: I think Hakuin behaved like a real bodhisattva - he was not touched by praise or contempt..
druth Vlodovic: it has the appearance of wisdom, but often what is truly wise is situational, rather than absolute
Eliza Madrigal: I may have encountered a diff version, but I remember that at the end they took the child back, and he had the same reaction as at the beginning
Laura Azalee: yes, i have heard the same story eliza
Eliza Madrigal: but I agree that his lack of worry about his own reputation is bodhisattva like
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- detached by not needing to protect himself or defend himself
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Arisia Vita: welcome Raffila
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Raffi!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Raffi :)
Raffila Millgrove: hey all, sorry for late arrival.

Aphrodite Macbain: we are discussing a zen koan
Arisia Vita: be glad you are here now, as we are
Laura Azalee: hi Raffila
Laura Azalee: exactly - and at the same time, caring for the child - as it was just a living being needing care
Aphrodite Macbain: I'll IM it to you
Raffila Millgrove: ty Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: I thought it was a useful way to illustrate the value of feeling and experience over rational thinking
druth Vlodovic: oh?
Aphrodite Macbain: A totally rational person might think of the injustice and wonder why the monk didn't defend himself
Aphrodite Macbain: But the monk's decision was based in compassion and love for a vulnerable child
Aphrodite Macbain: and a young and fearful mother
Laura Azalee: compassion.. yes
Aphrodite Macbain: He is somehow detached yet compassionate
Eliza Madrigal: I can see that reading of the story
Arisia Vita: I see the monk's actions as a type of passive defence, deflecting the issue from himself to the others?
Eliza Madrigal: I guess in some ways he set an example for the girl
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, that's how I see it. His ego isn't involved
Arisia Vita: exactly
Eliza Madrigal: spoke to her conscience
druth Vlodovic: I can give a few possible reasons for the monk's actions, but maybe he didn't have any?
Arisia Vita: pls do druth
Aphrodite Macbain: good point, perhaps it is a lesson that can only be taught through action
Eliza Madrigal: lack of defensiveness can be courageous
Aphrodite Macbain: listens to druth
druth Vlodovic: perhaps he just saw it as a happening, and accepted it without tactic or strategy
Eliza Madrigal nods
Aphrodite Macbain: nods - detachment?
Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps love/compassion trumps justice?
Raffila Millgrove: i can see it as detachment from truth. Knowing the "real" truth--that he was not the father, the monk accepted the parents perceived truth.. He detached himself from....holding onto the reality....letting the parents have their reality instead.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods - good point Raffi
Arisia Vita: Yet he still accepted the child
Eliza Madrigal: I'm not sure that I have the same romantic view of detachment in this story that I may have had even a few years ago... seems a little Job like to me now
Eliza Madrigal: (Job in the biblical story)
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
druth Vlodovic: the monk is setting himself up to be the town scapegoat and sucker
Laura Azalee: i dont think so eliza
Aphrodite Macbain: martyr-like?
Raffila Millgrove: never saw detachment as easy or romantic, i rather envy those who can easily open the hand and "let go".
Eliza Madrigal: I guess I can't stop thinking about the child leaving, and want to write in his staying as a grandfather figure
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: (the monk staying)
Aphrodite Macbain: The monk is detached by not fortifying his own ego and instead attends to the issue at hand- the care of an infant
Eliza Madrigal: baby crying ::is that so?::: :))
Aphrodite Macbain: :-) spoken like a mother!
Eliza Madrigal: hah
Aphrodite Macbain: It is not about being right
druth Vlodovic: these days they call it "the extinction method" which sound dreadfully ominous to me :-P
Arisia Vita: is it about just being?
Eliza Madrigal: extinction method? eep
Aphrodite Macbain: "the extinction method"??
druth Vlodovic: if he had fought the accusation, the girl would maybe have stuck to her story and it all would have ended up with the monk holding the baby and everyone calling him a liar
Aphrodite Macbain: and he would simply say "is that so?"
druth Vlodovic: if baby cries a lot you let them - they get tired of it after a few hours (like 7 or 8) and hopefully (wishfully) learn other methods of communication
Eliza Madrigal: I like to think that the monk cried for the baby to leave, became thankful that the mother took responsibility, which made his detachment bittersweet
Aphrodite Macbain: He doesn't get triggered by accusations
Arisia Vita: do babies cry for a reason?
Aphrodite Macbain: Attend to the things you can change and ignore the ones you can't.
druth Vlodovic: at first they always cry for a reason, later they do it because it works to get attention, plus for reasons
Aphrodite Macbain: It must be hard to be detached as a parent
Aphrodite Macbain: in fact it would be unnatural
Eliza Madrigal: I bought into the view of attachment parenting meeting the needs which then would let go on their own
Aphrodite Macbain: listens
Eliza Madrigal: but I would do things slightly differently if beginning again
Aphrodite Macbain: how? what would u do Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: mainly my own way of attachment, but in my case it was complex
Eliza Madrigal: so it is hard to articulate
Eliza Madrigal: one's own needs have to be met first... like in the airplane mask analogy
Aphrodite Macbain: kk
Raffila Millgrove: is watching now close up.. with her baby granddaughter living with her, it is different not to be the mom, it is a kind of detachment to watch and not be responsible.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: It comes naturally unless ur a psychopath
Eliza Madrigal: just enjoyment Raffi?
Raffila Millgrove: lack of responsibility.. you can be more objective. you don't have yourself mixed into it. bit like Eliza mentions.
Eliza Madrigal: "yourself mixed into it" yes
Eliza Madrigal: every little thing was a crisis for me when they were growing up... dance lessons, every grade, etc
Aphrodite Macbain: I suppose after the 4th child you are more detached, knowing it's not always an emergency
Raffila Millgrove: baby is not depending on your for her milk, for diaper.. you can just watch and be amazed every day. it's quite fabulous.
Laura Azalee: smiles
Eliza Madrigal smiles
druth Vlodovic: "you sterilize your 1st baby's soother by boiling it, your third baby's soother by blowing on it"
--BELL--Laura Azalee: lol
Arisia Vita: soother :) we called them pacifiers :)
Aphrodite Macbain: yes Raffi! just appreciate the wonder of babies!
Arisia Vita: babies need a few germs to be healthy later :)
Raffila Millgrove: haha. it's true. each baby after first is different..but also easier .. less worrying. if you are granny--you can be loved and bask in sunshine.. and see the growth. The joy to me--is astonishing. not to worry. just to smile and enjoy. It really is a kind of detachment.
Eliza Madrigal: sounds like bliss
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: Thank you all for being here
Arisia Vita: our pleasure
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Aph, you too
Raffila Millgrove: it is the first and only thing i have appreciated about getting old. this lack of worry and this being here in the moment to see how the baby grows.
Aphrodite Macbain: I've enjoyed our discussion
Eliza Madrigal: ahhh aging, another good topic
Laura Azalee: ouch...
Eliza Madrigal: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: aging.... ok that's our topic for next week!
Arisia Vita: great
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, hope to come. thanks everybody
Arisia Vita: we'll all be a week older
Aphrodite Macbain: we can all relate I'm sure
Eliza Madrigal laughs
Arisia Vita: take notes
Raffila Millgrove: ty for leading us. sorry to get in late.
Laura Azalee: was nice meeting you all
Aphrodite Macbain: np. come back soon
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Laura Good to meet you.
Raffila Millgrove: bye all.
Eliza Madrigal: see you again Laura
Eliza Madrigal: be well all
Laura Azalee: bye all
druth Vlodovic: ttfn