2017.01.26 13:00 - Dance of Partners Perfectly Matched

The Guardian for this session about the book The Wisdom of Lived Experience, by Maxine K. Anderson, were Eliza and Mick. Greetings are at the bottom of the page for the sake of clarity.
For the background and previous weeks of this ongoing exploration, please see:
The Wisdom of Lived Experience - Views from Psychoanalysis, Neuroscience, Philosophy and Metaphysics 

 

--BELL--

Bruce begins our circle....

Eliza Madrigal: Okay, ready Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: Here I go. . . . ready or not.
Aphrodite Macbain listens

Bruce Mowbray: This section of the book (Kindle 242-311) has been especially valuable this week –
Bruce Mowbray: as I apply its information about left/right brain interactions to my daily affairs.
Bruce Mowbray: I seem to have developed a new and spontaneous “way of watching”
Agatha Macbeth: Osiyo K
Korel Laloix: Heya.. brb
Bruce Mowbray: -- a sort of automatic witness that operates in virtually every one of my life’s contexts,
Bruce Mowbray: from spiritual inquiry, to online dialogues with friends,
Bruce Mowbray: to the news media’s coverage of government changes, to entertainments of all sorts.
Bruce Mowbray: For example, last night I watched the movie “The Man Who Knew Infinity” (2015)
Bruce Mowbray: about Indian mathematical genius Srinivasa Ramanujan at Cambridge University during the First World War.
Aphrodite Macbain: great flick
Bruce Mowbray: I was fascinated to watch the interplay between pure mathematics and raw racism,
Bruce Mowbray: and between Hindu mysticism and academic atheism, in several characters’ portrayals of their characters
Bruce Mowbray: - Ramanujan’s wife and Bertrand Russell, for starters.
Bruce Mowbray: And just this morning I was visited by two Jehovah’s Witnesses,
Bruce Mowbray: and for almost an hour we had a wonderful discussion about varieties of Biblical interpretation.
Bruce Mowbray: I can’t help but imagine how fMRIs might light up like bi-lateral Christmas trees with each of these brains.
Bruce Mowbray: Maxine’s book is already having a powerful impact on my life.
Bruce Mowbray: [done]

Mickorod Renard: amazing Bruce, great!
Catrinamonblue Resident: wow
Bruce Mowbray: ty
Agatha Macbeth: Mathematics won out over raw racism of course...
Eliza Madrigal: fantastic, Bruce. Such energy
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: dont fall in the pool Bruce

Eliza Madrigal: :) San, have thoughts to share today?
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Santoshima Resident: [ pass ] = { done}
Eliza Madrigal: k...
Eliza Madrigal: Kori I don't think you've been reading with us... lots going on, but do you have something to add about the general topics that have come up?
Eliza Madrigal: (Kori may be working and afk)
druth Vlodovic: she might not be back yet
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Aphrodite Macbain: yes she said brb
Korel Laloix: Sorry.. just reading back.
Eliza Madrigal: Oh... missed that sorry
druth Vlodovic: ok, I'll pass
druth Vlodovic: oops,kori's turn
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Korel Laloix: Don't wait on me... smiles...
Eliza Madrigal: hah, okay....

--BELL--

Korel Laloix: I saw that movie.
Eliza Madrigal: and thanks Druth
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Aph?
 

Aphrodite

Aphrodite Macbain: Interesting discussion about the dialectical nature of the 2 hemispheres of the brain - like a conversation or debate between them.
Aphrodite Macbain: like: thesis, antithesis, synthesis

Kori
 

Korel Laloix: There are lots of studies available on the topic.
Aphrodite Macbain: did you want to speak Kori?
Korel Laloix: One of the latest trends is saying how incomplete the idea of left/right brain is since so much is done outside of those lobes.
Eliza Madrigal: Kori is away now...
Aphrodite Macbain: k
Agatha Macbeth: Busy girl
 

Aphrodite continuing...

Aphrodite Macbain: thesis, antithesis, synthesis
Bruce Mowbray: please continue, Aph.
Aphrodite Macbain: a well balanced brain creates a synthesis of its awareness
Aphrodite Macbain: ?
Aphrodite Macbain: I find, it slow reading as I keep bumping into conceptions or terms that are new
Aphrodite Macbain: like Hegel's Aufhebung = flowering?
Aphrodite Macbain: it's a process of development, of becoming and perpetually changing?
Aphrodite Macbain: Also - I need to understand more about the "birth of the subject"
Aphrodite Macbain: were we subjectless at birth and then became a subject (ego?) as we matured?
Aphrodite Macbain: More questions than answers for me. No synthesis yet :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: done

Eliza Madrigal: :)) wow, thanks... you are actually sort of seeing our outline Aph
Mickorod Renard: nice observations Aph
Bruce Mowbray: Be sure to check out Winnicott, coming up in next reading, Aph (re: birth of the subject)
Aphrodite Macbain: trying to
Aphrodite Macbain: kk
Eliza Madrigal: :) Thanks, yes!
Eliza Madrigal: Mick, ready?
 

Mick

Mickorod Renard: unfortunatly I have had a crazy day and not prepped
Mickorod Renard: if I could just outline something
Bruce Mowbray listens carefully.
Mickorod Renard: The newborn comes into the world completely dependent on others for satisfying individual basic human needs. Feelings of security in a relationship with the mother, or an adequate substitute, is the cornerstone of mental health in later years.
Mickorod Renard: and I think that that security need sort of creates this part of thinking that always brings us back to
Mickorod Renard: what we call normal..but is proberbly very limiting
Mickorod Renard: anyway,,as I say, I have nothing to offer
Mickorod Renard: sorry
Bruce Mowbray: Excellent points, Mick.
Mickorod Renard: done
Bruce Mowbray: LOTS of Winnecott in what you said.
Eliza Madrigal: they are, no apologizing :P
Mickorod Renard: ty
Catrinamonblue Resident: lovely Mick ty :)
Eliza Madrigal: comfort zone
Eliza Madrigal: Tura?
Tura Brezoianu: Ok
 

Tura

Tura Brezoianu: I'm reading left and right as metaphors rather than literally the halves of the brain. Even McGilchrist says near the end of his book that it doesn't matter if the neuroscience doesn't pan out.
Tura Brezoianu: (I haven't read McGilchrist, only some reviews of his book.)
Tura Brezoianu: It's a structure we can use to create understandings of the mind rather than things that are really there.
Tura Brezoianu: That's why there can be so many theories of psychology at the same time.
Tura Brezoianu: Different things projected on the Rorschach blot of experience.
Tura Brezoianu: None true, all useful (although I don't know if the partisans of different schools would agree :)
Tura Brezoianu: So it's a theory of two different aspects or components of the mind.
Tura Brezoianu: I get the impression that Maxine is rather down on the "left" aspect. So is McGilchrist.
Tura Brezoianu: Which as a mathematician and software developer rubs me a little the wrong way :)
Agatha Macbeth: :P
Tura Brezoianu: I see them more as, say, the engine and the rest of a car.
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Tura Brezoianu: You can't say one is more important, it's only the whole car that can go anywhere.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes

--BELL--

Aphrodite Macbain: they work together
Tura Brezoianu: It was a really interesting experience that Jill Bolte Taylor had
Mickorod Renard: he he ,,like the horse cart and rider the other week
Aphrodite Macbain: bell...
Tura Brezoianu: [finishing quickly] but her left brain had to heal for her to make the TED talk. [done]

 

Bruce Mowbray: ahhh! Beautiful, Tura. Thank you for reminding us about the metaphors.
Mickorod Renard: yes super Tura..i too after reading the section was thinking more negative re left but you are right
Eliza Madrigal: :) great observations
Mickorod Renard: each complimentary and very important
Bruce Mowbray nods to Mick.
Eliza Madrigal: Cat?
 

Catrinamonblue

Catrinamonblue Resident: I really enjoyed this weeks reading. Learning the left/right interplay
Catrinamonblue Resident: a dance of partners perfectly matched, each holding the other up and in movement :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I think McGilchrist blames the increase in the valuing of the left brain as a cause for society's getting worse
Catrinamonblue Resident: A feeling of excitement for the learning to come :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: done :)

Eliza Madrigal: beautiful... like that metaphor of dancers too
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Mickorod Renard: yes, love that idea..working in harmony
Bruce Mowbray: (or dissonance)
Eliza Madrigal: it does seem that Maxine speaks more for the right... perhaps feeling the left articulates itself more obviously so she is acting as voice... will have to think about that more...
Mickorod Renard: yes!
Eliza Madrigal: but re my report... it is long, but that's because I have quotes....
Agatha Macbeth: You old quoter
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Great, Eliza. please continue
Aphrodite Macbain: quote away

Eliza

Eliza Madrigal: Maxine describes something familiar to all of us I'm sure, and certainly to me, when she writes: .
"In this regard, I am reminded of my experience of being with a patient, or, indeed, with a close friend or family member in which there is deep resonant interchange, much of which is out of awareness, and then of my trying to write up the hour or take verbal note of the deep discussion.
My efforts at this notation often feel like sorting through a heap of dried leaves. The multi-dimensional experience cannot be adequately captured by words or retrospective thought. Only in resumption of the contact, as in the next analytic hour or the renewed conversation, can the fullness of the *lived* experience be resumed." (loc 262)

Eliza Madrigal: I notice similar when giving these reports. While I read, I may feel to understand, and a million things to share may bubble up, but switching gears, I *lose the moment*. 
Eliza Madrigal: Many who have wanted to describe the vividness of their dreams, or moments in prayer/meditation/temple, express this continually... that it is hard to put words to such meaningful encounters, But then back in the setting, they come alive again, or a stream is felt to be tapped into.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Eliza Madrigal: It is hard to convey unless you can bring someone into the (your?) moment
Eliza Madrigal: So I come back to time... and to being / becoming. Maxine writes about the to and fro we've been talking about, and says, 

"When harmonious, this to and fro may be considered as part of the ongoing process of coming alive, or what Wilfred Bion notes as "becoming." (245)

I love the way she talks about the enfolding back in process, more through this chapter. (which Aph brings up with thesis, antithesis, synthesis)
Eliza Madrigal: I think that sometimes one 'can' get back to the vein of aliveness of the original encounter, with patience and time, and that's how a writer is able to convey more than words + skill. [done]

Aphrodite Macbain: thanks Eliza
Catrinamonblue Resident: wow
Aphrodite Macbain: I love the metaphor of the dry leaves
Eliza Madrigal: me too
Aphrodite Macbain: It is interesting how feelings cannot be put into words easily.
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: That's where artists do their best work
Aphrodite Macbain: music, painting, colour, texture
Bruce Mowbray: Great, Eliza. TY! some folks seem to "fold back" into the left brain - finding security there. Other folks seem to fold back into the right brain. I'm wondering if these are habits of mind.
Mickorod Renard: mmmm lots to think about there Eliza..lovely
Eliza Madrigal: dry leaves contrasted perhaps to the flower we'll be talking about soon with aufhebung
Aphrodite Macbain: seem to work better than words to express these feelings
Mickorod Renard: yes, i was wondering where I touch on that when I paint..but maybe I dont yet
Aphrodite Macbain: think about music!
Eliza Madrigal: yet many artists rely on interpreters to describe or 'market' their work
Aphrodite Macbain: nods- their "language" isnt universal as some think
Eliza Madrigal: I've always been fascinated by transitions and gear switching

Mickorod Renard: I think I know what I want to convey, but the frustration is trying to put it into art form
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Santoshima Resident: Is Korel here?
Agatha Macbeth: Be raw Mick, that works best
Aphrodite Macbain: things take time to settle into our consciousness
Korel Laloix: IN and out.. reading back.
Agatha Macbeth: :P
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: in body but not in spirit San
Aphrodite Macbain: ah she's back!
Mickorod Renard: he he , that sounds like a good night out Ags
Aphrodite Macbain: raw=unmediated?

Druth

druth Vlodovic: I got to thinking about the idea of creating the subject, and of the right brain being a sort of opening/connecting thing, the world as part of our consciousness
druth Vlodovic: it occurs to me that childhood is a process of crreating the object, that is realizing that the world is not part of oneself
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I feel that is very much in the spirit of Maxine's book, druth.
Aphrodite Macbain: the right brain being more about the subject?
druth Vlodovic: more that to an infant there is nothing but the self, in a sort of amorphous way
Aphrodite Macbain: they are their world
druth Vlodovic: defining the "other" is the second step to moving in the world and manipulating what is there

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: object permanence is such a big milestone
Bruce Mowbray: Maxine says that our consciousness begins in the right brain . . . and that the left brain is acquired through interactions with the world.
druth Vlodovic: the first step is magic, "this noise makes food come, this one makes food come faster"
Aphrodite Macbain: waaa
Agatha Macbeth: Pavolov
Bruce Mowbray salivates.
druth Vlodovic: when that psychologist got trained to feed the dogs on time
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: It owuld be interesting to see what neurosciene says about this
Agatha Macbeth: George would doubtless approve
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Aphrodite Macbain: does our right brain develop first?
Aphrodite Macbain: is it visibly bigger?
Bruce Mowbray: Maxine says so, yes.
Agatha Macbeth: You'd think so, sice pictures came before writing
Eliza Madrigal: it seems like those tricks don't go away, but that we are able to distance from them in order to slow them (ourselves) down (awareness). I say that because when under duress, people often revert to simplest tricks... tantrums, etc
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Agatha Macbeth: Like I said 'raw' :p
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: raw as in immediate Aggers?
Agatha Macbeth: Primal
Eliza Madrigal: mmm, nods
Agatha Macbeth: (as in scream )

Bruce Mowbray: I feel that both my left brain and my right brain are capable of being a "witness" to experience.
Bruce Mowbray: for example, I can view music analytically, or I can view it almost romantically.
druth Vlodovic: maybe this is why some people are so sensitive to insults, they cannot separate themselves emotionally/intellectually from their surroundings
Catrinamonblue Resident: some of my best writing has happened when stressed, in pain.... when i feel raw and somewhat out off control...
Bruce Mowbray nods to Cat.
Eliza Madrigal: many have noted recently that when fearful, societies turn more toward me/mine
Aphrodite Macbain: base instincts for survival
Eliza Madrigal: these interesting times are quite a display of our topic

druth Vlodovic: can a right brain "witness" an experience or only participate in it?
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: participate =?
druth Vlodovic: separation of experience and self seems a left brain thing
druth Vlodovic: perhaps the left brain can only perceive the right brain experiencing things with reality

Mickorod Renard: is the me /mine a turning bck towards a memory of comfort or a seperated form of selfish protectionism?
Aphrodite Macbain: objectivity?
Eliza Madrigal: neat question... I keep thinking of, and granted it reaches into next week, but Eckhart Tolle talks about the 'flowering of human consciousness', which is when there is the bloom of awareness... so that's a bit different from the original right brain baseline
Aphrodite Macbain: like Hegel?
Eliza Madrigal: would seem more the synthesis
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Eliza Madrigal: not sure Mick... it could be a healthy aspect of integration of the subject?

Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder what happens after awareness has bloomed. Does it die off again?
Mickorod Renard: mmmm..lots to think about..and Druths question too
Eliza Madrigal: we're generating lots of questions at least, haha
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: that's good!
Agatha Macbeth: We can answer them on Monday
Eliza Madrigal: oh sure :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: everyone come with answers to each of the questions brought up here today... >bwaahahha<
Mickorod Renard: I think awareness is always on the rise,,but how one reacts to it may lessen
Aphrodite Macbain: maybe we all need to write a collective poem on Monday - using words or ideas from Thursday..and see what happens
Aphrodite Macbain: more questions will happen
Eliza Madrigal: or maybe we could do picture reports sometimes
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Mickorod Renard: there is always Haiku
Aphrodite Macbain: tries to imagine what colours she would use
Eliza Madrigal smiles

Eliza Madrigal: Let me, before sessions officially ends, remind the pages for the next section...although we'll continue with this too, and blend....
druth Vlodovic: "your homework is to exude experience in medium from our discussion today"
Aphrodite Macbain: exude?
Agatha Macbeth: I'll do a Jackson Pollock
Aphrodite Macbain: might get smelly
Eliza Madrigal: emote rawly
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)

Santoshima Resident: https://www.facebook.com/wearewildne...video_guests=0

--BELL--

Mickorod Renard: draw as in a fire

Santoshima Resident: for later
Agatha Macbeth: Catch a fire
Aphrodite Macbain: awww San
Aphrodite Macbain: birdsong as a form of peaceful feeling
druth Vlodovic: it succeeded in calling the bunnies
Eliza Madrigal: sigh, wow
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
druth Vlodovic: surprising, mostly they are scared of everything existant or not
Aphrodite Macbain: robin?
Mickorod Renard: and it didnt notice the whales
Aphrodite Macbain: It was letting the other birds know that this was his fence

Bruce Mowbray ponders that "scared" and "sacred" are such similar words... just the reversal of two letters.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Bruce :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Next week is up to page 370, just before: "Turning to Melanie Klein's dialectics regarding the coming alive of the subject..." I'll update the wiki page and send a link. Thanks everyone
Bruce Mowbray: THANKS, Eliza and everyone.
Catrinamonblue Resident: Thanks Eliza :)
Mickorod Renard: well..wonderful session again..thank you Eliza and all
Eliza Madrigal: maybe we'll assign Riddle and Bleu to give us all the answers, since they weren't here today... hahah
druth Vlodovic: thank you Eliza :)
Santoshima Resident: pg number depends on type size in a digital book. so perhaps could you offer the end pagssage?
Santoshima Resident: thank you Eliza
Santoshima Resident: and all
Eliza Madrigal: Okay San, yes...
druth Vlodovic: yes, my version falls short of 200 pages
Mickorod Renard: ok..back to the mayhem
Santoshima Resident: peace on!
Eliza Madrigal: The end sentence is "Both past and present are affirmed and negated; both past and present are present and absent."
Mickorod Renard: byeeeeeeee
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks everyone. You were very well mannered
Agatha Macbeth: Enjoy your mayhem Mick
Eliza Madrigal: thanks Aph
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Tura Brezoianu: thanks all
Eliza Madrigal: would cursie but I lost my gesture I think....
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye everyone :)
Eliza Madrigal: <3
Eliza Madrigal: curtsie
Agatha Macbeth: Cursie too
Eliza Madrigal: :)
druth Vlodovic: will will use our imaginations to full extent

 

Early Greetings: