2017.05.18 13:00 - Trauma, Hallucinations, Magdelene Dreams, and Sufi Bees

The Guardian for this quite casual  The Wisdom of Lived Experience - Views from Psychoanalysis, Neuroscience, Philosophy and Metaphysics  meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal, who was fascinated by the trail we started following right at the end of session, so offers a little more...

            (Andrew Gough                   http://andrewgough.co.uk/articles_butterbees/   )

The word sarmoung uses the Armenian pronunciation of the Persian term sarman, which may mean either
"he who preserves the doctrine of Zoroaster" or "bee".

Regarding the meaning, the author John G. Bennett, a student and aide of Georges Gurdjieff writes:

"The word can be interpreted in three ways. It is the word for bee, which has always been a symbol of those who collect the precious 'honey' of traditional wisdom and preserve it for further generations. A collection of legends, well known in Armenian and Syrian circles with the title of The Bees, was revised by Mar Salamon, a Nestorian Archimandrite in the thirteenth century. The Bees refers to a mysterious power transmitted from the time of Zoroaster and made manifest in the time of Christ.... Man is Persian meaning as the quality transmitted by heredity and hence a distinguished family or race. It can be the repository of an heirloom or tradition. The word sar means head, both literally and in the sense of principal or chief. The combination sarman would thus mean the chief repository of the tradition." Yet another possibility was "those whose heads have been purified", in other words: the enlightened.^[2]

And from Mick, an interesting link full of associations, sent just after session:  
https://www.artbytanyatorres.com/sin...-of-the-Bees-1

Session Beginning

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Tura :)

Tura Brezoianu: hello Eliza
Tura Brezoianu: hi Cat
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cat :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi guys :)
Eliza Madrigal: You know how when something is put on your radar, then other things show up? Today someone shared this article, which turns out to be related to replicability issues you mentioned a few weeks ago, Tura:
Eliza Madrigal: https://redux.slate.com/cover-storie...is-broken.html
Eliza Madrigal: It is too long to read now, but not uninteresting :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi morgano :)
morgano Bravin: Hi Guys
Tura Brezoianu: Oh yes, I heard of the Bem thing.
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi morango :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu :)
Bleu Oleander: hi all :)
morgano Bravin: Hi Bleu
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Bleu :)
Eliza Madrigal: Everyone doing well?
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes :) and you?
Bleu Oleander: can't complain, you?
morgano Bravin: good ta
Eliza Madrigal: :) fine, coming out of a pesky head cold
Catrinamonblue Resident: yucky :(

--BELL--


Eliza Madrigal: not great fun, but just slowed me down a few paces :)
morgano Bravin: there has been a horrid cough here that lasts about 6 weeks
Eliza Madrigal: 6 weeks!
Catrinamonblue Resident: yikes...
Bleu Oleander: 6 weeks?
morgano Bravin: yes, thats if you are lucky
Eliza Madrigal: related to weather conditions too? damp?
morgano Bravin: I know some who still have not rid of it after longer..I dont know cos the eweather has not been that bad
Eliza Madrigal: hm, then I feel even luckier to be already shedding this thing :)
Bleu Oleander likes the dry AZ weather :)
morgano Bravin: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hm, thought I saw Bruce sign on, but perhaps he can't come today...

Eliza Madrigal: Does anyone have follow up questions or thoughts on the reading(s)?
Eliza Madrigal needs to refresh memory
morgano Bravin: me too, I have barely given it a second thought after Monday
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bleu, you posted a link to log comments... about PTSD
morgano Bravin: although it never seems far away either
Bleu Oleander: yes, interesting research
Eliza Madrigal: http://neurosciencenews.com/fear-mem...encoding-6680/
Bleu Oleander: I don't know much about PTSD tho
morgano Bravin: maybe we should spend a few mins reading the link again?
Eliza Madrigal: Even though I take in new information, I have to admit I fall back into my own general sense of things usually... takes a lot to dislodge it
Bleu Oleander: "a population of hippocampal neurons project to both the amygdala and the mPFC, and that it is these neurons that efficiently convey information to these two brain areas to encode and retrieve fear memory for a context associated with an aversive event."
Bleu Oleander: true that, Eliza
Bleu Oleander: I think for most of us!
Eliza Madrigal: most of what I think I understand about PTSD is surely in that category. ie, how to be there for someone experiencing it... so until research bridges some gap where it becomes useful in hand, I have a hard time

morgano Bravin: it is interesting to that it says 7 percent of the us pop have it..ptsd. is that perhaps only 7 percent because only 7 percent have been traumatized?
Eliza Madrigal: that seems a low number considering what we've been reading
Eliza Madrigal: but maybe difference between trauma that is known vs trauma that is not being dealt with or seen?
Tura Brezoianu: Psychiatrists get a biased view of people's sanity. They never see the healthy ones.
Eliza Madrigal: I think of healthy as the ones who can talk about it
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bleu Oleander: healthy is a moving target
morgano Bravin: that too

morgano Bravin: I must admit, after reading that I cant say I understood it well enough to comment on
Bleu Oleander: I think neuroscience is hard to comprehend for the average person, without some background

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: to me, it simple shows continued progress towards understanding, even if very small steps
morgano Bravin: I think there is a general presumption that one has to have had a significant trauma to suffer..but I would argue that any trauma could be ptsd ...
Eliza Madrigal nods
Catrinamonblue Resident: Yes Morango
morgano Bravin: or rather lead to it
Eliza Madrigal: and the question out there that if we can find where and how it is happening and simply rid ourselves of it, we should. Ie, does suffering have value? Would we stop learning?
Eliza Madrigal: in a lot of cases I think, let the person off the hook
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: deep question Eliza...
Bleu Oleander: I don't think we can eliminate suffering ... suffering is not a one size fits all either ... many different concepts of suffering
Eliza Madrigal nods, the lines between what constitutes trauma are still fuzzy for me, especially when we reach back into birth... but for PTSD, that seems clearer

morgano Bravin: I have seen people who have had their spouses walk out on them and they have never been the same again........some folk are more sensitive than others too
Eliza Madrigal nods... quite individual
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Bleu Oleander: so much variation in suffering and tolerance of it also
Eliza Madrigal: if you see your child trying to get over the same hill with their bicycle, after a while you help them, and maybe you keep helping them, if that's the only place they keep getting stuck?
Bleu Oleander: for some a paper cut is classified as suffering
morgano Bravin: trauma I guess would have a value, like for eg,,shows damage?
Eliza Madrigal: >cough cough< resists lol
Eliza Madrigal: true morgano
Eliza Madrigal: when I first went to therapy, it was with the intention of using hypnosis to bypass a particular struggle, but instead many other things changed, and that remains

morgano Bravin: re the child and bicycle..do you mean that there must be some allowance to learn from things Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: sort of, morgano... a child without help may just simply give up riding the bike, which would be a shame
Eliza Madrigal: but too quick not to let them try to overcome by themselves and they may not grow over it?
Eliza Madrigal: that seems the line therapists have to find... and the ethical question for us as we are able to understand circuitry more
morgano Bravin: he he , my son resented me thrusting away on his bicycle without stabalizes..especially when he went over and took his knees off,,but when I did the same with my granddaughter she loved it and cycled immeadiatly
Eliza Madrigal: :)) does he still resent you?
morgano Bravin: yes i recon
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
morgano Bravin: I always use the motto..no gain without pain
Eliza Madrigal: in that case there is some gain but other cases, like, no need to really learn to tie shoes now if one doesn't have to, not that much gain so maybe degrees of worthwhile pain vary

Bleu Oleander: Aggers :)
Agatha Macbeth: Hello :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Aggers :)
Eliza Madrigal: H Agatha :)
morgano Bravin: I love the challenge, but I think my son fears failure..so there is a different attitude to everything between us
morgano Bravin: hi Aggers
Eliza Madrigal: we're just chatting generally Agatha, about trauma/ptsd
Agatha Macbeth: OK

--BELL--

Agatha Macbeth: Carry on :p
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I'm looking forward to the next few sections
Eliza Madrigal: so a little over this one already, lol
morgano Bravin: I think there is a place for all of us in the world,,with diferent qualities, but society is not too eager to accept everyone
Eliza Madrigal: I find it all just very challenging... can see so many angles
Agatha Macbeth: Very Pythagorean...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: ha!

morgano Bravin: when it comes to trauma, mental that is..everyone expects folk to'get over it' or 'dont dwell in self pity'..but perhaps a helping ear is whats needed
Eliza Madrigal nods, morgano
Eliza Madrigal: it also takes some listening skill, though...
morgano Bravin: if we recognise what this book is telling us we all should be a little more aware of how to treat someone suffering
morgano Bravin: if I can be more aware that would be of great value to me
Eliza Madrigal: a gentle heart
morgano Bravin: it would help me to be more compassionate or even ..erm, that word I always forget
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Eliza Madrigal: a friend gave me a link to a site a few weeks ago, that I haven't looked into more deeply yet. Evidently, not only are there 'listeners' but they teach people to listen without judgment
Eliza Madrigal: https://www.7cups.com/talk-to-strangers-online/
Eliza Madrigal: so, no advice per se, as I understand it, but presence
Bleu Oleander: I'm always suspect when people say they can listen without judgement ... we all have nonconscious judgement going on ... at least I'm beginning to realize that
Agatha Macbeth: That's an awful lot of tea to drink
Tura Brezoianu: On 7cups, I'd be terrified of clicking the button
Eliza Madrigal: maybe more accurate to say they don't express judgment
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: ah yes ok
Tura Brezoianu: Never used omegle.com either, where you talk to random strangers
Eliza Madrigal googles

Agatha Macbeth: Don't we do that in SL all the time?
Bleu Oleander: yes :)
Agatha Macbeth: Hm
Eliza Madrigal: sort of
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Tura Brezoianu: well...
Eliza Madrigal: we quickly become friends in SL, or at least acquaintances, parts of networks
Bleu Oleander: I still run into avatars I've never met before ... amazing really
Agatha Macbeth: WB Mick
Eliza Madrigal nods... but, would you talk to them deeply?
morgano Bravin: ty
Bleu Oleander: deeply not so much ha!
Eliza Madrigal: morgano :) I'll give you an IM with what you missed
Bleu Oleander: but sometimes
Eliza Madrigal smiles
morgano Bravin: ta
Eliza Madrigal: I find that familiarity is an obstacle to listening... in all 'relationships'
Agatha Macbeth: Oh dear, that laptop
Eliza Madrigal: someone says, "Oh but you are __ __ __" and doesn't hear what I'm expressing, because they are really trying to help

morgano Bravin: I plugged in the charger but didnt switch on the plug
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Agatha Macbeth: Sillee

--BELL--

Catrinamonblue Resident: slips away... sorry :)
Eliza Madrigal: s'ok Cat :)
Agatha Macbeth: Slip well Cat
morgano Bravin: bye Cat
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bleu Oleander: bye Cat
Agatha Macbeth: ^.^

Bleu Oleander: re next section on hallucinations, did anyone read Oliver Sacks book?
Eliza Madrigal: No, I have wanted to for a long while now... but not sure why I haven't! I loved all his appearances on Radio Lab and other interviews/talks
Bleu Oleander: its a great book
Tura Brezoianu: I've read others but not that one
Bleu Oleander: I was amazed at all the different varieties of percepts the mind can have
Eliza Madrigal: say more?
Bleu Oleander: too much to summarize now, but lots of different ways the mind creates realities
Bleu Oleander: and fine lines between categories
Bleu Oleander: dreams, daydreams, hallucinations, etc.
morgano Bravin: I read a story last night..a kids one to children..it was where an old hag gave a young man a mirror that showed him what others see him as
Bleu Oleander: makes a distinction between imaginative spaces and external spaces
Bleu Oleander: so something happens and imagination leaps its boundaries and becomes hallucination
Eliza Madrigal: what did it show morgano?
Bleu Oleander: my puppy seems to recognize herself in the mirror :)

morgano Bravin: when he saw what others thought he was able to adjust that image , but only because he was kind at heart anyway
Eliza Madrigal: aw, Bleu
Agatha Macbeth: Don't tell me...she was really a princess?
morgano Bravin: np
morgano Bravin: he he
Eliza Madrigal: you know, Stevie said something very similar ... that she tends to listen more to others' perceptions or feedback of what she is like
Agatha Macbeth: And he kissed a frog or something
Eliza Madrigal: can be quite taoist... not moulding to another's impression but able to fluidly see what the other sees
morgano Bravin: well, in the story most folk had a wrong image of the young man, but that was their ignorance, but the young man had previously done nothing about it cos he hadnt realized he looked stupid
Agatha Macbeth: Oh dear
Eliza Madrigal: :) hm
morgano Bravin: or something like that

Bleu Oleander: the "mare" in nightmare originally referred to an old hag who sat on sleepers and suffocated them :)
Agatha Macbeth: Nice
Eliza Madrigal: :) not a ghost horse?
Bleu Oleander: speaking of hags hehe
morgano Bravin: I have had sleep paralysis..its real spooky
Agatha Macbeth: The time is neigh
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Eliza Madrigal: yes me too morgano... young adult years it is common. Were you young?
morgano Bravin: no, dont think I have ever been
Eliza Madrigal: :)

--BELL--


morgano Bravin: he he
Agatha Macbeth: Born bald
Eliza Madrigal: see, familiarity is preventing me from hearing you clearly
morgano Bravin: yes, I think I am getting younger in the head every day
morgano Bravin: shame its not my body
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: ha!

Eliza Madrigal: let me give the reading for the next week...
Eliza Madrigal: May 22, 2017 - Week Twenty One: Hallucinatory phenomena Beginning: [loc 1128] Dreams, preconceptions, projective phenomena, halluinosis To: [loc 1160] (just before) Students of Bion will recognize Green's formulation of hallucination involving the reversal of the usual mode of perceiving as taking in from external reality.
Eliza Madrigal: I thought about making it more, since June 5 we won't have a reports type session... but I think I may just add on another section
morgano Bravin: ok..must go....oh, that looks interesting Eliza
Bleu Oleander: yes, must go too
Bleu Oleander: thanks Eliza and all
Bleu Oleander: take care
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Eliza Madrigal: :) thanks for coming, have fun with puppy Bleu
morgano Bravin: bye Bleu
Agatha Macbeth: Woof
Bleu Oleander: pup is sleeping under my chair :)
Eliza Madrigal: ::melts:::
Bleu Oleander: you know what they say about sleeping dogs ....
Bleu Oleander: byee
Eliza Madrigal: if you try to take the sock away from them they growl...
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Bleu Oleander: lol
Agatha Macbeth: Sock it to me
Bleu Oleander: byee
Eliza Madrigal: bfn
Agatha Macbeth: TC Bleuji

morgano Bravin: I think I must have been in my mid 40's when I had sleep paralysis
Eliza Madrigal: wow
Eliza Madrigal: I think that's very unusual
morgano Bravin: but was suffering from sleep deprivation
Eliza Madrigal: ah
morgano Bravin: and also some sort of trauma
Eliza Madrigal: Did you get to attend the dream workshops with Fox, when she talked about this?
morgano Bravin: yes I did
Eliza Madrigal: I really wish for it to be common knowledge, so that people aren't quite as unneverved when it happens
morgano Bravin: for me it was waking mentaly before I awoke bodily
Eliza Madrigal: so body couldn't move
morgano Bravin: trying to talk was awful too
morgano Bravin: and the limbs dont wok
Eliza Madrigal: that's the part that was most upsetting for me... not being able to talk or scream
morgano Bravin: work
Agatha Macbeth ponders Liz not talking
Eliza Madrigal: hhaha
morgano Bravin: he he
Eliza Madrigal: I probably could have typed if I tried!
Eliza Madrigal honestly doesn't speak much :)
Agatha Macbeth: Course not
morgano Bravin: most things are quite simple once understood

Eliza Madrigal: if you live in a religious household, the interpretations can mess with you
morgano Bravin: well, I have had wierd religious type dreams and yet never lived in a religious environment
Eliza Madrigal: just the symbolism?
morgano Bravin: all sorts ..so wierd I was looking them up on the net..and seeing the whole story
Eliza Madrigal: interesting
Eliza Madrigal: I watched the film Bruce kept mentioning...
Eliza Madrigal: Altered States
morgano Bravin: I think the woman from sumaria was the deepest
Eliza Madrigal: that film had some religious imagery, and wild scenarios/hallucinations... which will hopefully not factor when I go into the tank at the end of the month. :)
morgano Bravin: and another one was about a broken urn or vase that was on the net after I dreampt it but I havent found it since

Eliza Madrigal: do you still go over that dream Mick? still unfolding?
morgano Bravin: i find I am not so dreaming like that these days
Eliza Madrigal: Here's a thing I did this week: I wrote BEFORE sleeping, in my dream journal... some thoughts and considerations/questions. Then, I seemed to dream more vividly. Worth a shot :)
morgano Bravin: and another thing,,when I was recalling them for the dream session they became overwhelming
morgano Bravin: ah, thats a good idea Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: it really gave a nice continuity, and something to compare
morgano Bravin: I was able to recall maybe 3 a night and thats enough to make you feel you are more alive asleep than awake
Eliza Madrigal: :)

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: dream session was good for recall
morgano Bravin: sure was
morgano Bravin: I made some nice girlfriends in my dreams too
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Tura Brezoianu: !!
morgano Bravin: I almost feel a loss for them

Eliza Madrigal: I still dream about paul mccartney a lot
Eliza Madrigal: :)
morgano Bravin: yes? wow
morgano Bravin: its been ages since i had mary magdelene in a dream,,that feels a loss
Agatha Macbeth: 0.0
Eliza Madrigal: was the dream before or after your painting?
morgano Bravin: oh lots and before
Eliza Madrigal: you could keep a kind of "red book"
Eliza Madrigal: where you draw out dreams too, not just write them
morgano Bravin: how d y mean?
morgano Bravin: ah I see

morgano Bravin: it is true to a degree what Wol said once, that the faces in dreams are not so clear
morgano Bravin: you think they are until you try and recall the vision
Eliza Madrigal: that's true... rare for a face to be very clear

morgano Bravin: one mary was in a sort of all over cover..like a woven bee hive
morgano Bravin: which in itself was odd, as since I have found a link to bees and mary
Eliza Madrigal: fascinating, you have?
morgano Bravin: yes, i must let you know one day
Eliza Madrigal: yes, curious now :)
Eliza Madrigal: Mary Mother of Bees
Agatha Macbeth: Bzzz
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Tura Brezoianu: aren't bees associated with wisdom in the Sufi tradition?
morgano Bravin: but there is a statue in whats that place in Turkey
Eliza Madrigal: oh, that would be interesting...
morgano Bravin: ephesus?
Eliza Madrigal: ah, "brotherhood of bees"
morgano Bravin: I went there last year I think
morgano Bravin: anyway,,another day

Agatha Macbeth: I'm going to have to go...can't keep awake
Agatha Macbeth: BFN
morgano Bravin: yep me too..see ya all
Eliza Madrigal: aw, night Agatha :)
Eliza Madrigal: Night morgano :)
Eliza Madrigal: I forget how late it is for you all :)
morgano Bravin: nite nite all
Tura Brezoianu: getting late for all of us
Eliza Madrigal: now I'm down the rabbit hole looking for sufi bees....
Eliza Madrigal: wish you both sweet dreams
morgano Bravin: wow this avi has a sexy walk
Tura Brezoianu: goodnight Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Night Tura :))