2017.07.15 13:00 - Circled Wagons

The Guardian for this meeting was Bruce Mowbray. The comments are by Bruce Mowbray.

Bruce Mowbray: afk for a minute. . . brb

Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Qt.

Qt Core: hi bruce

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: Still hot?

Qt Core: plain summer hot now

Bruce Mowbray: ahhh.    better then.

Qt Core: a coupleof  thunderstorms in past days helped

Bruce Mowbray: We had so much rain this week that most of Ohio was under flood warnings.

Bruce Mowbray: Still lots of water standing in some fields -

Bruce Mowbray: fortunately not in ours.

Qt Core: we may like some in southern Italy, where many fires are burning

Bruce Mowbray: MUCH worse north of here....

Bruce Mowbray: Yes, fires in places in the US, too.

Bruce Mowbray: and Canada... forest fires.

Bruce Mowbray: but NOT in Ohio....

Qt Core: good

Bruce Mowbray: just flooding...

Qt Core: and many are man made

Bruce Mowbray: Sad.

Bruce Mowbray: Arson?

Qt Core: yes, if the useless trees are no more maybe it will become legal to build on it or just they want the money for reforestation

Bruce Mowbray: hmmmm....

Bruce Mowbray: Sad for the forests and all the animals living in them.

Bruce Mowbray: Raffi!

Qt Core: Hi Raffi

Raffila Millgrove: HI Bruce. HI QT, so nice to see you Qt. haven't seen you in ages.

Qt Core: poof

Qt Core: :-)

Raffila Millgrove: you missed the book sessions this week Bruce. Were your away? We missed you.

Qt Core: wb Bruce

Bruce Mowbray: Whew!

Bruce Mowbray: The storms knocked out my Internet for two days.

Bruce Mowbray: ty for asking, though.

Raffila Millgrove: ah. We missed you. All girls. For some reason we ended up wearing wings.

Raffila Millgrove: Thurs. session

Bruce Mowbray: Ha ha!

Bruce Mowbray: No Mick?

Raffila Millgrove: nope. no guys at all. just girls wearing wings.

Qt Core: the niceties of SL, in RL it may have been just pjs

Raffila Millgrove: at least we are going to quit calling the internal spaces .. thoughts etc.. “hallucinations.”

Raffila Millgrove: that will be a plus as we're finished with that aspect.

Bruce Mowbray: So many examples in our world of people who have "undifferentiated" worldviews leading to violence --- the theme of this week's reading.

Bruce Mowbray: Yeah, "hallucinations" is a bit misleading, it seems.

Bruce Mowbray: We're talking about the book we're reading, Qt:

Bruce Mowbray: "The Wisdom of Lived Experience"

Bruce Mowbray: by Maxine Anderson.

Raffila Millgrove: this is been one of the reasons that I feel this book cannot appeal to general readership. All these everyday type words that people understand being totally redefined. It's too much for the average person to learn new concepts and then have them tagged with familiar names.

Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I agree that the book is not for mass consumption...

Raffila Millgrove: yeah Qt. Maxine has summarized many thinkers.... and used their vocal choices as well as tossing in a few of their own.. and it's made it challenging.

Qt Core: every knowledge corner / sect develops a language of its own changing meaning to regular words

Bruce Mowbray: I'm learning a lot, but I need to translate stuff and then look for RL examples...

Raffila Millgrove: yes but I asked.. who is Maxine's audience..?  and everyone seemed to think it was meant for a general audience.. and she's writing her new book the same way.

Raffila Millgrove: yes Bruce. exactly.

Bruce Mowbray agrees with Raffi.

Bruce Mowbray: I spent this afternoon helping an 88-year-old woman "learn" internet and computer jargon....

Raffila Millgrove: and it seems like this huge waste of really good material. good thinking. I don't know why we can't be honest about it politely.

Qt Core: (then there is the fun if as it happen outside of English-speaking places you pull words from English and use them as your own language)

Bruce Mowbray: Didn't there used to be an agency in France that decided which English words not to allow?

Bruce Mowbray: like "hot dog" etc.

Raffila Millgrove: absolutely. Actually I think it was some Academy. some group of learned peoples.

Raffila Millgrove: France.

Qt Core: yes, there is one in Italy too "L'Accademia della crusca". literally "The brain academy"

Bruce Mowbray: So, I also agree with Qt - every subgroup has its own jargon.

Raffila Millgrove: remember when I ask you.. is this going to be a "year" for real and you said.. well we'll probably rethink it in a few months. but it is a year.

Raffila Millgrove: about how long we work on this book.

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: Yes, it is scheduled to take a whole year.

Raffila Millgrove: Bruce this is so .. difficult to sit thru this. for a year.

Bruce Mowbray nods.

Raffila Millgrove: esp when you are old.. you are thinking. my life.. it's shorter. should i spend it this way.

Bruce Mowbray: I'm enjoying the personal input, though -- especially yours, Raffi.

Raffila Millgrove: yes i am. too. i am not bitching about the contributions of people. but the biggest problem in this is that no one can join us.

Raffila Millgrove: it's like we circled the wagons for a year.

Raffila Millgrove: hardly anyone could join us.. in our two most active sessions cause it's way way too hard at this point to grasp anything.

Bruce Mowbray: Some of the people who attend the sessions have experienced a LOT of trauma in their own lives, it seems...  or in the lives of friends.

Qt Core: definitely a sect ;-)

Raffila Millgrove: that's true too.

Raffila Millgrove: yes QT. we got horribly exclusive. it.. bothers me.

Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I agree that to some it might feel like a "circled wagons" thing.

Raffila Millgrove: cause if anyone of our old crew of pabsters wants to come.. they are just so gofied by this. they can't come and join us.

Raffila Millgrove: I really don't want that... to be excluding our own people. No newbie could handle it either. so we're all closed off..

Qt Core: to be honest i gave it a pass mostly did not want to have "homework" to do ;-)

Raffila Millgrove: see?

Bruce Mowbray: We've done this sort of "class project" before - but usually in a different time slot than 1 p.m. . . . . Pema's class on "Time Magic" was held on Friday mornings, if I recall.

Raffila Millgrove: Qt i got so distressed with all this formal report and creeping thru that one day I just read the book through so i understood where/what it was all about. i had to just do it. for myself. i couldn't go slow like that anymore.

Qt Core: the idea of reading the book could have been interesting, but i went committophobic

Bruce Mowbray: The "formal reports" motivate me to understand the material well enough to write a "report"

Raffila Millgrove: they are optional at least.

Bruce Mowbray: I usually write my report in the hour just before Monday's 1 p.m. session.

Raffila Millgrove: no one "has" to make one and when people do.. they are always good.

Bruce Mowbray: Yes, optional is good with most things....

Raffila Millgrove: but it's too hard for someone .. to just sit there and enjoy them... it's way too hard because of the vocabulary.

Bruce Mowbray nods, good point.

Raffila Millgrove: for me to say QT.. come on over.. it's great. you don't have to do a report.

Bruce Mowbray: Qt would be most welcome.

Raffila Millgrove: yes that is what i want to say. that QT and anyone is welcome.

Bruce Mowbray: Sometimes Xir shows up ... and I'm pretty sure she's not reading the book.

Raffila Millgrove: which is why I did that email about Maxine coming.

Qt Core: didn't even know there were (optional) reports to be done

Bruce Mowbray: Eliza asks for [optional] reports on Mondays.  The repeats that call on Thursdays – if anyone has one.

Raffila Millgrove: that maybe people who didn't read the book would like to come see Maxine. but no luck in that at all. NONE. no one replied except Eliza. we were hoping people might discuss questions to ask her.

Qt Core: yes that announcement was good, thought about coming, then RL happened ;-)

Bruce Mowbray nods, Maxine has been with us twice, I think.

Raffila Millgrove: well.. i really wanted to get some reply. .very discouraging.

Raffila Millgrove: four times Bruce.

Raffila Millgrove: she's come FOUR great times.. each has been wonderful.

Bruce Mowbray: FOUR!?

Raffila Millgrove: yes!

Bruce Mowbray: my memory is lagging, it seems.

Raffila Millgrove: the first time was just to visit and ask general questions. We’ve asked more specific ones this last 3 times.

Bruce Mowbray: Ahhh.

Raffila Millgrove: i really thought wow. everyone could come see her. she is so.. interesting to listen to.

Raffila Millgrove: and talks very sensibly. none of this weird vocab.

Bruce Mowbray: Yes, my question to her was quite specific...

Raffila Millgrove: talks like a wise person.

Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I agree.

Raffila Millgrove: like a nice smart aunty. and you didn't have to read a word of the book to enjoy her visits to us.

Bruce Mowbray: She's had a LOT of professional experience, too.

Raffila Millgrove: absolutely.

Raffila Millgrove: we could sit there and visit with her endlessly.. but no one came. only our little group came.

Bruce Mowbray: I looked her up on the Internet.

Raffila Millgrove: I have studied her quite a bit. she is well respected in her field.

Bruce Mowbray nods.

Raffila Millgrove: what i like so much about her: modest.

Raffila Millgrove: so modest and humble.

Bruce Mowbray: Well, perhaps other Pabbers are off with RL activities - or else in other SL areas of interest.

Raffila Millgrove: and hugely diplomatic.. but she Always answers the question .. no matter how hard. she directly answers it.

Bruce Mowbray: A lot of the old-timers never come anymore.

Bruce Mowbray: Yes, she was most gracious with all questions.

Raffila Millgrove: QT.. Could you tell us without feeling pressure why you didn't come to see Maxine. If it's not too personal to ask you?

Bruce Mowbray listens.

Raffila Millgrove: uh oh i guess we went off into sunset there and he went to have a cup of coffee?

Qt Core: just rl interfering, had a rough evening and remembered about it the morning after (sessions are at 10 pm for me)

Raffila Millgrove: oh there it is. Thank you Qt.

Bruce Mowbray: Qt might also be challenged by the book's language --- Her sentences are often very complex.

Raffila Millgrove: well i dunno bruce. i think if i bug Eliza on this.... about this book.. and another whole six months. I think she'd feel attacked, unappreciated etc.

Raffila Millgrove: i think maybe it's too upsetting to challenge her over it. She’s put so much time/thought into organizing it.

Bruce Mowbray: Well, there are still many good theme topics ahead, I hope. . . I mean from the book's material.

Raffila Millgrove: yeah we are definitely moving into the literature thing. which isn't bad.

Raffila Millgrove: there are several areas that are very interesting .... that's true.

Bruce Mowbray: I've not read any farther than the group has discussed, so far.

--BELL--

Raffila Millgrove: it's the pace Bruce. It’s so slow. And it means that twice a week we exclude everyone. for a year. I think it's not good for the group as a whole.

Qt Core: but then organizing another activity for "the pabbers" could be too much for someone that would like to attend/follow both

Raffila Millgrove: yes.

Bruce Mowbray: I'd like to explore real-world applications more---- for example, how would individuals suggest helping someone open up her "un-differentiated” world-views? (Maybe we're being "un-differentiated" by staying with the book for a year) -- Just a thought.

Raffila Millgrove: What have you been doing with self QT. can you say?

Raffila Millgrove: well i dunno. we gotta maybe say something about this.. i dunno.

Qt Core: on the other end it could be the 10th year celebration activity preparation that Aph already invited us to start?

Bruce Mowbray nods.

Raffila Millgrove: I agree about bringing down to real world.. and we've done a lot of that at least.

Bruce Mowbray nods again.

Raffila Millgrove: yes QT. Aph is very hot on that....

Raffila Millgrove: and wants to work for some great stuff.

Bruce Mowbray: Tenth anniversary? That's next April, right?

Qt Core: i mostly waste my time on fb/tv reading silly things online

Raffila Millgrove: but right now.. i think she's very busy.... on defending a PhD dissertation.

Bruce Mowbray: Yes, that's coming up soon.

Raffila Millgrove: i spelled that wrong i think. i always do.

Raffila Millgrove: anyway she's tied up temp on that. cause it's so important of course.

Raffila Millgrove: but she's thinking a lot about it and very very.... keen.

Bruce Mowbray: Her oral defense is this week, I think.

Raffila Millgrove: We were going to do a midsummer's poetry reading. but she wanted to save poetry reading for April. so we let that idea pass

Bruce Mowbray: I meet with Aph every Wednesday for two hours - in Original Face.

Qt Core: as if there isn’t enough new or old poetry around ;-)

Raffila Millgrove: we thought that the poetry reading is kind of easy to set up but she wanted us to wait so we deferred on it

Bruce Mowbray: never can get enough poetry, literature, or art....

Raffila Millgrove: well that Original Face Bruce is the classic excluder.

Qt Core: i spend less time in sl and ouch, how much i feel/see it on my spelling and speed

Raffila Millgrove: it makes everyone who came .. five years ago... even.. that long ago. That’s how long you can feel excluded.

Bruce Mowbray: NO we're not! If you mention to someone that you'd like to join the group, I will see that you are invited....

Raffila Millgrove: forget it Bruce.

Raffila Millgrove: to wait five years for an invite. i don't think so. it's too much.

Bruce Mowbray: It just takes a REAL commitment -- every week...

Bruce Mowbray: It is a contemplative group .. and a lot of people might be turned off by that.

Bruce Mowbray: No one in the group is in it unless they first express an interest.   and a few people have dropped out of it. . .

Raffila Millgrove: Bruce. I asked questions about it .. several times.. in the early years. it's an exclusive clique. period.

Raffila Millgrove: it's a classic us vs them.

Bruce Mowbray: I'm sure that anyone who expressed an interest and could make the commitment would be invited to join us ---

Raffila Millgrove: it's jr high school.

Qt Core: the issue on inclusiveness against sectarism against damn we like to do something what we should do if others don't comes up often online (or irl)

Raffila Millgrove: that is not true. you can't express any commitment to someone who tells you this is an invite only group.

Raffila Millgrove: think about it.

Bruce Mowbray listens.

Raffila Millgrove: if you ask.. what is Original Face and the answer is.. oh it's an invite only group.... are you going to express a commitment?

Raffila Millgrove: if you don't even know what it is.. or who is in it.. or what they do.. all they tell you is invite only.

Raffila Millgrove: think about it.

Bruce Mowbray: When people suddenly show up in one of the sessions, we politely tell them that this is an invite group. . . If and when they express an interest, we give them all sorts of material to look at and ask them to think about it and let us know if they feel like making that commitment. We have never "excluded” anyone to my knowledge.

Raffila Millgrove: here's one of the things i think about. I am contributing money with everyone else to PAB continuing.. and i can't even participate in this group.

Raffila Millgrove: I presonally would NEVER show up to some closed group without someone saying. you would like to come to a meeting.

Raffila Millgrove: you sure have excluded someone.

Raffila Millgrove: I am telling you my personal experience on this going back years.

Bruce Mowbray: You've read the material and contacted one of the group's members --- and were then told "No"?

Raffila Millgrove: i just said i am givig money to PAB which hosts an intense group that has excluded me for five years.

Raffila Millgrove: Bruce. where am I reading the material? when you ask a member. what is OF.. then supposedly they would give you a link or a notecard or something. i got zip. anytime i asked.

Bruce Mowbray: I'm sorry that you feel that way, but it’s also clear that I'm not going to convince you otherwise.

Raffila Millgrove: I don't "feel" this way. I am giving you exact facts.

Bruce Mowbray: And it is also time for me to go.

Raffila Millgrove: ok.

Bruce Mowbray: Have a good weekend, Raffi and Qt.

Qt Core: Bye Bruce

Raffila Millgrove: bye Bruce. great to see you QT. please if you can come to a guardian meet. we changed the time. Maybe it's a time you can come?

Raffila Millgrove: is it?

Raffila Millgrove: we're meeting like on Fridays now....

Qt Core: bad day Friday, i'm not usually home (amateur astronomer club meetings)

Raffila Millgrove: we aren't sure about the time. we were thinking it's ok for folks. on Friday at 1 pm

--BELL--

Raffila Millgrove: no? oh ok. well thank you so much for telling us about your thinking on this stuff.

Raffila Millgrove: astronomy club must be so fun. My daughter was in one. She loved it so much.

Raffila Millgrove: she made her own telescope.

Raffila Millgrove: did you make one too?

Qt Core: no, i have not even bought one, personally I’m more interested in theory, what happen inside stars, and such

Raffila Millgrove: ah ha. i hope to see you again soon and ask you more on that. i am so interested in how things have changed since i studied. Hope we can do that. Take care.

Qt Core: i usually say i'm a not observant amateur astronomer

Raffila Millgrove: haha.

Qt Core: bye Raffi

Raffila Millgrove: bye Qt. loved seeing you!