2017.10.26 13:00 - Despite all those Begats

The guardian for this meeting was Mick, who was not able to attend today. Eliza, who was also not able to attend today, posted this interesting session from the listener database. :)

Bleu Oleander: hi Tura
Bleu Oleander: nice bubble

Tura Brezoianu: hi Bleu
Bleu Oleander: how are you?
Tura Brezoianu: fine, you?
Bleu Oleander: pretty good thanks
Bleu Oleander: hey Aggers
Agatha Macbeth: Greetings
Tura Brezoianu: hi Ag
Agatha Macbeth: Oh good - I have the good pose
Bleu Oleander: :)
Agatha Macbeth: What an interesting hat Bleuji
Bleu Oleander: ty!
Bleu Oleander: I tried to match my outfit :)
Agatha Macbeth: Yeh
Agatha Macbeth: Kewt
Tura Brezoianu: Is that ice cream or marshmallows?
Bleu Oleander: dots
Agatha Macbeth: Dotty Bleu :)
Bleu Oleander: started with a Damien Hirst dot painting
Agatha Macbeth: Stevie!
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
Bleu Oleander: hey Steve :)
Agatha Macbeth: Oh my
stevenaia Michinaga: nice hat, Bleu
Bleu Oleander: ty!
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Tura, Aggers
Tura Brezoianu: looking very autumnal, steve
Agatha Macbeth: I just said the same thing :p
stevenaia Michinaga: :), then it must be true
Bleu Oleander: ha!
stevenaia Michinaga: I'm always "turning"
Agatha Macbeth: Wonder if Mick's coming?
Bleu Oleander: I think he said he couldn't today
Agatha Macbeth: Oh
Agatha Macbeth: Hm
Bleu Oleander: so maybe just us
Bleu Oleander: any comments to get us going?
Agatha Macbeth: Fish
stevenaia Michinaga: Thanks for lucid dream article, Bleu, I hope to read it tonight
Agatha Macbeth: Ok, that died a death
Bleu Oleander: I thought it was pretty interesting
Bleu Oleander: could you expand on that Aggers?
Agatha Macbeth: Big fish?
Bleu Oleander: LOL
stevenaia Michinaga: dead fish needs no expanding
Agatha Macbeth: Dead fish society
Bleu Oleander: bloating perhaps
Agatha Macbeth: Ah Qt is on
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe he'll join us

Bleu Oleander: what chapter are we up to?
Agatha Macbeth looks at Tura

Tura Brezoianu: last time we were talking about chapter 4, Origen
Agatha Macbeth: Ah yes
Tura Brezoianu: Or is that ch 5?
Agatha Macbeth: Origenal sin
Bleu Oleander: have you read 5 yet?
stevenaia Michinaga: Chapter? Did I walk into a homework sesson?
Tura Brezoianu: 5 and 6 are about how Augustine ruined things.
Bleu Oleander: not really ... we've been discussing Adam and Eve book
Agatha Macbeth: Made a good job of it too
Agatha Macbeth: Buona sera Qt
Bleu Oleander: hi Qt
Qt Core: Hi all
Bleu Oleander: his life was an interesting read

Tura Brezoianu: Summary of chapters 4-6: Origen retconned the Jewish Adam and Eve story into Christian philosophy, then Augustine made it be about his own sexual hangups.
Agatha Macbeth: And hello Aphie
Bleu Oleander: good summary Tura :)

stevenaia Michinaga: Hi Qt, Aph
Bleu Oleander: hi Aph

--BELL--

Tura Brezoianu: Augustine won :(
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi everyone
Qt Core: hi stevenaia.Aph
Tura Brezoianu: hi all
Bleu Oleander: was so influential
Agatha Macbeth: On penalties
Bleu Oleander: amazing how that happens
Bleu Oleander: anyone read "the confessions"?
Aphrodite Macbain: Augustine's?
Agatha Macbeth: Anybody's in particular?
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Bleu Oleander: yes
Agatha Macbeth: Oh
Qt Core: i haven't
Bleu Oleander: most of the details of Augustines
Bleu Oleander: life from that
Agatha Macbeth: Is this Augustine of Hippo?
Bleu Oleander: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Agatha Macbeth: Right
Aphrodite Macbain: in Africa
Bleu Oleander: his obsession with Adam and Eve story
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: and original sin
Agatha Macbeth: Wonder why
Aphrodite Macbain: He was riddled with guilt
Bleu Oleander: well I think he thought the story had to be real or else everything else might be considered myth too
Aphrodite Macbain: until his "aha!" moment
Agatha Macbeth: Right, understandable
Aphrodite Macbain: and reaization that by accepting Christ, his sins could be washed away
stevenaia Michinaga: well it it that time of year, we just did an annula "rewind" started reading "Chapter One" of the "Bible" a few weeks ago
Bleu Oleander: 4th century ... trying to figure things out
Aphrodite Macbain: Christ
Bleu Oleander: oh right on time Steve
Aphrodite Macbain: who was this Stevenaia?
Bleu Oleander: do you read it every year?
Bleu Oleander: Oct 31 is 500th anniversary of Martin Luther reformation
Bleu Oleander: so lots being written about that time
Agatha Macbeth: He picked a good date
Aphrodite Macbain: he he
Bleu Oleander: on purpose
Bleu Oleander: hehe
stevenaia Michinaga: Jewish ppl rewinds the first five book of the "old' bible every year (we call the 5 books of Moses) and re-wind them every year since they are written on a scroll
Bleu Oleander: ah ok
Aphrodite Macbain: ah- thanks Steve
Agatha Macbeth: He went to the Vatican and yelled trick or treat
stevenaia Michinaga: early video tape style
Bleu Oleander: and read out loud?
Bleu Oleander: so how do you view Adam and Eve story?
stevenaia Michinaga: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah
Aphrodite Macbain: Just the way the Koran is read constantly in Mosques
stevenaia Michinaga: yes read (sing) out load in hebrew
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)

Aphrodite Macbain: Augustine's confessional started a whole new form of literature
Aphrodite Macbain: and perhaps influenced the importance of conrfession in Roman Catholicism ritual
stevenaia Michinaga: brb
Aphrodite Macbain: the need to unburden oneself
Aphrodite Macbain: of guilt
Aphrodite Macbain: an idea Freud was fond of
Bleu Oleander: what did Freud say about confession?
Aphrodite Macbain: I dont know
Bleu Oleander: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: but he probably approved of it :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: as a form of therapy?
Aphrodite Macbain: the couch as confessional
Bleu Oleander: oh you mean like psychoanalysis?
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: unburdening oneself
Bleu Oleander: little different than Augustine :)
Aphrodite Macbain: to a non-judgemental listener
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Bleu Oleander: although god was not a non-judgemental listener

Aphrodite Macbain: but I found that he was obsessed with his guilt, weren't you?
Bleu Oleander: yes Augustine was
Aphrodite Macbain: He didnt have a shrink to go to...
Qt Core: god may not be judgmental, but the confessors...
Bleu Oleander: his mother was so overbearing
Aphrodite Macbain: yes!
Aphrodite Macbain: He experimented with many kinds of religions before he accepted Christianity
Bleu Oleander: Manichees
Aphrodite Macbain: right!
Bleu Oleander: was a follower of Mani

--BELL--

Aphrodite Macbain: much like Zorastrianism
Aphrodite Macbain: and Neo Platonism
Aphrodite Macbain: It's all very fuzzy now.....
Bleu Oleander: he gave up his family which his mother didn't like anyway
Bleu Oleander: I can't imagine that
Aphrodite Macbain: Giving up his family?
Bleu Oleander: yes, the person he lived with and their son
Bleu Oleander: his mother wanted him to marry a catholic
Aphrodite Macbain: were there Catholics back then?
Bleu Oleander: but he gave them all up and became a bishop
Bleu Oleander: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: forgot that

Tura Brezoianu: weren't there just Christians of various contending flavours?
Bleu Oleander: he's 4th century
Aphrodite Macbain: That's what I thought Tura
Bleu Oleander: there was a roman version
Aphrodite Macbain: Roman Catholic?
Bleu Oleander: that became the official religion of rome
Bleu Oleander: in 4th c
Bleu Oleander: the official "canon" of the bible took several more years
Agatha Macbeth: Old Constantine
Bleu Oleander: but there were others
Bleu Oleander: but they tried to burn all those books ... some have been rather recently discovered
Aphrodite Macbain: Good old Constantine
Aphrodite Macbain: He made Christianity legal
Bleu Oleander: well, he converted
Agatha Macbeth: It was entirely political, nothing to do with religion at all
Bleu Oleander: became official religion about 50 years after that
Bleu Oleander: about control
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: Became the dominant religion
Agatha Macbeth: He needed something to keep the Empire together
Agatha Macbeth: Ironically the Empire fell apart and the Church survived :p

Bleu Oleander: Augustines mother was catholic
Aphrodite Macbain: along with bread and circuses
Bleu Oleander: and wanted her son to be as well
Aphrodite Macbain: But he had a major conversion in a garden
Bleu Oleander: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: saw the light
Bleu Oleander: a spiritual moment
Agatha Macbeth: Good a place as any
Bleu Oleander: he and mom
Aphrodite Macbain: without the help of his mother
Bleu Oleander: she was there
Bleu Oleander: and then died shortly after that
Aphrodite Macbain: during his conversion?
Agatha Macbeth: And he got a city named after him too
Bleu Oleander: yes
Bleu Oleander: his mom did too ... Sante Monica
Agatha Macbeth: Yay
Aphrodite Macbain: I have forgotten more than I remember!
Bleu Oleander: Santa Monica
Aphrodite Macbain: Monica of Hippo
Aphrodite Macbain: not California
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Agatha Macbeth: Patron saint of boulevards
Aphrodite Macbain: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: so
Aphrodite Macbain: Adam and Eve
Agatha Macbeth: So
Bleu Oleander: named in honor of the feast day of Saint Monica
Aphrodite Macbain: I am most familiar with those two from all the art work
Bleu Oleander: so the importance of the Adam and Eve story was made more so by Augustine
Agatha Macbeth: You own him? :p

--BELL--

Aphrodite Macbain: Did he write about them in any other texts?
Bleu Oleander: I'm not sure
Bleu Oleander: I've only read "the confessions"
Aphrodite Macbain: I think it was from St Augustine that the concept of original sin began
Bleu Oleander: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: Hair shirts and whips abounded
Agatha Macbeth: All good fun

Bleu Oleander: he felt strongly that Adam and Eve's sin passed down to everyone
Aphrodite Macbain: the penitentes
Aphrodite Macbain: I find it's hard to understand that belief, dont you?
Aphrodite Macbain: Why blame us?
Aphrodite Macbain: It is almost like a gene defect
Tura Brezoianu: He said that a baby's cries are evidence of its original sin
Aphrodite Macbain: We all have a sin gene
Bleu Oleander: a strange idea really
Aphrodite Macbain: did he?
Agatha Macbeth: Some of us more than one
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Bleu Oleander: but another way to control people
Tura Brezoianu: that was mentioned somewhere in chapters 5 and 6
Bleu Oleander: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: how were they controlled?
Bleu Oleander: well salvation only by being baptised
Bleu Oleander: since we all had O sin
Aphrodite Macbain: ah-
Aphrodite Macbain: so a rather cruel way of manipulating people to join the church
Bleu Oleander: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: halleljulia
Aphrodite Macbain: (or however u spell it)
Bleu Oleander: amazing what people believe!
Aphrodite Macbain: nods- not just in religion
Bleu Oleander: so Augustine was pretty influential
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Bleu Oleander: the "fake news" of its time
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: Makes me think of fundamentalist speakers-
Aphrodite Macbain: Billy graham et al
Bleu Oleander: however, the stories appealed to people
Bleu Oleander: and people used them to think with
Bleu Oleander: and bond with each other
Bleu Oleander: whether they believed them or not

Aphrodite Macbain: we all believe we are bad...
Bleu Oleander: the power of narrative
Bleu Oleander: I don't Aph hehe
Aphrodite Macbain: Well- I'm just a little bad
Agatha Macbeth: Only a little?
Bleu Oleander: certainly we all can be bad (ie go against our cultures ideas of the good)
Aphrodite Macbain: cross my fingers and hope to die
Bleu Oleander: :)
Agatha Macbeth: You should try harder Aph :p
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: my fingers are crossed as tightly as I can make them
Aphrodite Macbain: Interesting that it's only CHristianity that believes in original sin
Aphrodite Macbain: as far as I know, the other major religions don't
Agatha Macbeth: It has way more sinners that's why
Bleu Oleander: that said there are many versions of christianity!
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: but dont all them believe in original sin?
Bleu Oleander: what does Judaism teach about adam and eve and their "sin"?

Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder when that doctrine was accepted by the church. Council of Nicea?
Aphrodite Macbain: Looks at Stevenaia
Agatha Macbeth: 353 I think
Aphrodite Macbain: early days
Agatha Macbeth: They decided Jesus was divine by a vote!
Aphrodite Macbain: ha
Agatha Macbeth: Seriously
Aphrodite Macbain: all in favour?
Agatha Macbeth: Hands up
Aphrodite Macbain: I give up
Agatha Macbeth: The ones who said no probably got thrown to the lions
stevenaia Michinaga: sorry, clients
Bleu Oleander: I think there was a debate whether or not to include the hebrew bible
stevenaia Michinaga: well the sin was certainly no sex
Aphrodite Macbain: interesting- it was the founding religion
stevenaia Michinaga: not
Bleu Oleander: :)

--BELL--

Aphrodite Macbain: sex was a sin? despite all those begats?
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe nobody noticed
Aphrodite Macbain: :)
Bleu Oleander: well probably time for our WG meeting?
Aphrodite Macbain: right
Agatha Macbeth: Ar, tis the hour
stevenaia Michinaga: that we we focused on murder (Cain and Able) and the brother's keeper thing and the rage assoacited with God's preference of one gift (grain) over the other's (meat)
stevenaia Michinaga: be more on that another time, so many stories in there
Tura Brezoianu: For Augustine it was lustful feeling that was sinful, but necessary for procreation.
Bleu Oleander: interesting stories!

Aphrodite Macbain: Want to meet at my place? I have cushions.
Bleu Oleander: sure
Bleu Oleander: thanks all
stevenaia Michinaga: sure, anyone can join us
Aphrodite Macbain: This was interesting. Thanks
Bleu Oleander: bye those leaving
Qt Core: Bye all
stevenaia Michinaga: lots of weighty issues to discuss
Agatha Macbeth: Have a good WG folks
Agatha Macbeth: BFN