The Guardian for this meeting were Aph and Bruce. The comments are by Agatha.

Aphrodite Macbain's current display-name is "Aph".
Riddle Sideways: oooooo
Riddle Sideways: bad
Agatha Macbeth: Yeh
Aphrodite Macbain: put-rid
Agatha Macbeth: He was
Agatha Macbeth: Not in real life mind you
Riddle Sideways: have been listening for 3+ hours to pink floyd
Agatha Macbeth: Woot
Aphrodite Macbain: way cool
Riddle Sideways: blaming Adams, started it
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Agatha Macbeth: What's she done now?
Riddle Sideways: Animals
Aphrodite Macbain: listened to Pink Floyd?
Riddle Sideways: Animals in songs
Agatha Macbeth: Oh
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Riddle Sideways: so had to play the album
Agatha Macbeth: Les animeaux
Agatha Macbeth: (sp?)
Aphrodite Macbain: looks good
Aphrodite Macbain: bon
Agatha Macbeth: Couldn't remember if there was an e in it
Aphrodite Macbain: animaux
Agatha Macbeth: Yeh
Aphrodite Macbain: looks wrong
Riddle Sideways: anime has an e
Agatha Macbeth: That's what I was thinking
Agatha Macbeth: What long legs you have Liz
Aphrodite Macbain: All the better to skip with
Agatha Macbeth: Or skate
Aphrodite Macbain: or leap over buildings
Aphrodite Macbain: Hope Bruce can make it today
Agatha Macbeth: Some leap
Eliza Madrigal: oh, sorry... was adjusting hover height
Agatha Macbeth: Never a bad move
Aphrodite Macbain: I wish I could do that in RL
Aphrodite Macbain: RL
Aphrodite Macbain: It would mae sitting in lectures mre comfortabe
Eliza Madrigal: oh, me too... gain a few lbs, no problem, just stretch a bit
Aphrodite Macbain: *make $more
Eliza Madrigal: ah, hovering in events would indeed be nice too, or in plane seats
Aphrodite Macbain: Has everyone read or listened to chapter 3?
Agatha Macbeth: Is your cat on the keyboard?
Aphrodite Macbain: no just my sloppy hands
Agatha Macbeth: Here comes Brucie
Aphrodite Macbain: yayy
Eliza Madrigal: yes, have listened a few times, since each time I listen I go farther then go back before session, then go farther again
Eliza Madrigal: :)
--BELL--1.00
Eliza Madrigal: Harari Dance
Agatha Macbeth: So you start before you began?
Eliza Madrigal: haha, I can't tell anymore
Bruce Mowbray's current display-name is "Bruce".
Riddle Sideways: thatz a way to go
Agatha Macbeth: Brucie :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Tura :) Hi Bruce :)
Riddle Sideways: Tura
Agatha Macbeth: And Tura :)
Tura Brezoianu: hi all
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Bruce and Tura
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, everyone.
Eliza Madrigal: Bruce with bit of a Mr. Rogers vibe today :)
Aphrodite Macbain: yes!
Aphrodite Macbain: nice tie
Bruce Mowbray: Won't you be my neighbor?
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Riddle Sideways: needs to put on slippers
Aphrodite Macbain: looks for Jerome
Agatha Macbeth: I remember Roy Rogers
Bruce Mowbray looks for slippers.
Aphrodite Macbain: me too
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Druth
Aphrodite Macbain: and hopalong cassidy
Riddle Sideways: hey dRuth
Agatha Macbeth: And his horse
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, druth.
druth Vlodovic: hey guys
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi druthie
Riddle Sideways: trigger
Aphrodite Macbain: and his wife, dale evans
Agatha Macbeth: Right
Tura Brezoianu: hi druth
Bruce Mowbray: I saw Roy Dale and Trigger in person when I was about 8 years old.
Aphrodite Macbain: wow- I cant believe I remembered that
Agatha Macbeth: They were on the Muppets once
Agatha Macbeth: He must have been about 80
Riddle Sideways: Roy had Trigger stuffed and put on display

Anyway, down to it

Aphrodite Macbain: So --- has everyone read chapter 3?
Bruce Mowbray: Yep, that's right.
Riddle Sideways: Dale got buried
Agatha Macbeth: Not so expensive to feed
Bruce Mowbray: also, Roy was from Portsmouth, Ohio.
Riddle Sideways: and almost reread too
Riddle Sideways: thank you Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: good for you. I find I forget so much of what he writes since he talks about so much
Eliza Madrigal: and it is all related
Aphrodite Macbain: hard to pull out particulars
Eliza Madrigal nods
Riddle Sideways: now am scared to get into driverless car
Agatha Macbeth: Need to watch those particulars
Aphrodite Macbain: do you all feel you are now run by algorithms?
Aphrodite Macbain: and have no will of your own?
Riddle Sideways: Google Maps vs the Prius' NAv

Old friend returns

Catrinamonblue Resident's current display-name is "Catrinamonblue".
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Cat :)
Riddle Sideways: they fight
Agatha Macbeth: LTNS
Riddle Sideways: hey Cat
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cat!
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Cat! LOng time no see.
Agatha Macbeth: Snap
Catrinamonblue Resident: I know it's been a long while.
Bruce Mowbray: WB, Cat.
Catrinamonblue Resident: I have not read the book but had a bit of time and just wanted to drop in and listen to you all :)
Agatha Macbeth: And we're still here
Riddle Sideways: great
Aphrodite Macbain: We are discussing Uval Harrari's book 21 sessions for the 21st century
Eliza Madrigal: :) feel free to jump in after you drop, the topics are easy to muse with, read or not
Bruce Mowbray: We're talking about "Liberty" today, Cat.
Catrinamonblue Resident: ok :)
Agatha Macbeth: Just don't mention walls...
Aphrodite Macbain: Something we assume is a basic right
Riddle Sideways: or the lack of Liberty
Aphrodite Macbain: but how free are we really?
Riddle Sideways: author dealt hard blow at Free Will
Riddle Sideways: kilt it
Aphrodite Macbain: despite the lack of visible walls
Eliza Madrigal: :)
druth Vlodovic: In the movie ladyhawke one character is talking to God and says "I know you wouldn't judge me for acting according to my nature."
Eliza Madrigal: "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way."
Aphrodite Macbain: maybe god wont but society might
Agatha Macbeth: Badly drawn boy
Eliza Madrigal: (Jessica Rabbit) :P
Tura Brezoianu: "Ok, I'm a serial killer, but underneath, fundamentally, I'm really a nice guy."
druth Vlodovic: I read it in her voice lol
Agatha Macbeth: Any relation to Peter?
Aphrodite Macbain: I often wonder whether my decisions are frequently made as a result of really good marketing
Bruce Mowbray: Harari says that “liberty” means each and every person has a voice – “What do you FEEL about this?”
Eliza Madrigal: that's a good thing, Aph, or at least that seems to be his message over all?
Riddle Sideways: and goes on a long time on the Bexit voters
Agatha Macbeth: Everybody has a vote but that's not quite the same
druth Vlodovic: "Give me a boy until his 6th birthday and I'll give you the man"
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- it seems decisions are made by "feelig" rather than by rational thinking
Riddle Sideways: oh dear
Agatha Macbeth: That's me
Aphrodite Macbain: and feeling is shaped by society
Eliza Madrigal: generalized impressions
Bruce Mowbray: Can I decide what is best for me?
druth Vlodovic: we can reprogram our feelings but even the decision to do so is suspect
Riddle Sideways: since you don't really know you very well
Agatha Macbeth: Better than anyone else can
Bruce Mowbray: Can I trust my own experiences and judgment?
Aphrodite Macbain: Good question Bruce. I dont think I can.
Eliza Madrigal: there are many feeling threats that, if they look at the numbers, aren't accurate... they are misdirected by the marketing machinery
Riddle Sideways: Big Data has stored every one of your decisions and knows which is better
Catrinamonblue Resident: :-D
Agatha Macbeth: 'Please accept cookies'
Eliza Madrigal: sounds so friendly!
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder how I coud make a decision without referring to what I have leard and learned.
Tura Brezoianu: "Never take cookies from strangers."
Aphrodite Macbain: heard
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Agatha Macbeth: Right
Riddle Sideways: knows if you been good or bad, so you better be good for goodness sake
Aphrodite Macbain: JUst chocolate bars
druth Vlodovic: instead of forcing us to leave our TVs on so they can watch us they make it so we don't want to turn them off and offer up our data
Riddle Sideways: 1984
Agatha Macbeth: Long time ago
Riddle Sideways: does that maths 2019-1984
Eliza Madrigal: and even if one stops the leak in one part of the boat, they discover another... really does seem too far to undo, so we have to move forward and try to regulate more?
--BELL--1.15
Aphrodite Macbain: I suppose one would have to barricade oneself from the world in order to not be influenced by others
Aphrodite Macbain: Trouble is- who does the regulating?
Eliza Madrigal: Germany just put limits on FB
Riddle Sideways: or always use a VPN
Catrinamonblue Resident: I have often wondered if it really is such a bad thing that they collect data on us? If we are aware and make our choices being aware of their interference does it matter that all the adds on my facebook are about a dress I looked at?
druth Vlodovic: is it bad to be influenced by others?
Aphrodite Macbain: It feels too much like big brother
Bruce Mowbray: The “smart” TV watches us while we're watching it - as does the smart phone, smart Netflix, smart Amazon, etc etc.
Aphrodite Macbain: It's smarter than us?
Riddle Sideways: and puts up adverts for a better refrig than the one bought
druth Vlodovic: something I noticed with youtube is that once it thinks it knows what you want to watch, it is hard to get other sorts of videos
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Bruce Mowbray: Iss Google smarter than I am? -- It's better at retrieving data, for sure.
Tura Brezoianu: People are always influenced by other people. That's what society is, right back to prehistoric times. Well, right back to ape times.
Aphrodite Macbain: It learns quickly
Eliza Madrigal: Sometimes I've felt like that, Cat, (more openness the better) but even when you give a lot, they take more.... like FB using private messages, which are... labeled...private
Tura Brezoianu: Youtube unlearns too slowly.
Riddle Sideways: yep Tura
druth Vlodovic: we don't have the big splash to warn us off talking
Aphrodite Macbain: big spash?
Riddle Sideways: the bad choice prehistoric died. their genes did not continue
druth Vlodovic: a problem is the enforced echo chamber
Eliza Madrigal: definitely, what happened with the kids channels on youtube was awful/scary
Bruce Mowbray: It sort of scares me that after I buy something online, for weeks afterward I get adverts for that thing whenever I open my browser.
Aphrodite Macbain: what happened Eliza?
druth Vlodovic: I didn't hear about that
Eliza Madrigal: the algorithms took kids from one video to another...
Eliza Madrigal: and then people started making videos, or rather having algorithms make videos...
Aphrodite Macbain: like wtching a serial program on Netflix
Catrinamonblue Resident: I know Bruce, I just ignore them mostly.
Eliza Madrigal: and they ended up being these horrible things. I'll find the article
Eliza Madrigal: Sure, parents shouldn't just hand a kid an ipad, but the society is all of our issue
druth Vlodovic: ah, the probhlem with AI is that it wasn't raised in society so it doesn't know what we think is right or wrong
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Riddle Sideways: Ethics????
Aphrodite Macbain: but it learns about society very quickly druth
druth Vlodovic: I mean kids like gross and ugly because it's funny
Riddle Sideways: oh and WHOSE ethics will we be forced to follow
Aphrodite Macbain: because it breaks rules?
druth Vlodovic: so something monitoring them will choose to show them what they like, not what we want them to like
Aphrodite Macbain: There may be a day when the parents can manipulate the material to fit within their morals
druth Vlodovic: "Perental controls" doesn't work as well as you'd like
Aphrodite Macbain: or get them to tune to the "moral channel"
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
druth Vlodovic: heck, slap xtian values on a monitoring program and the bible certainly won't be accessible
Riddle Sideways: and the Morals Channel is brought to you by mini Frosted Wheats
Aphrodite Macbain: lol Rid
Eliza Madrigal: the only moral choice
Bruce Mowbray: Good point, druth.
Tura Brezoianu: Harari talks about the algorithms of Facebook and the like knowing more about us than we do, but I think that misses the mark. The algorithms' only purpose is getting clicks and sales. They are optimised hard for that, and whatever you optimise for, everything else gets thrown overboard.
Catrinamonblue Resident: so are we actually losing our liberty? with big brother watching?
Bruce Mowbray: I agree with you Tura.
Aphrodite Macbain: That's what Harari suggests Cat
Aphrodite Macbain: but we are unaware of being manipulated
druth Vlodovic: obesity is sometimes blamed for "high value" food containing lots of fat and sugar, we were programmed to seek this out back when it wasn't prevalent
Bruce Mowbray: Our concept of “liberal democracy” will change – when algorithms make decisions for us
Riddle Sideways: and states we are losing our decision powers/ability
druth Vlodovic: so what we want isn't always what we need
Bruce Mowbray: well, our genes are also "programmed" -- in a way.
Eliza Madrigal: combined with income equality is probably the worrisome part
Aphrodite Macbain: you cant always get what you want
Tura Brezoianu: I think China's social credit system is a far bigger threat than Facebook, but hardly anything gets said about it in the West. I think some liberal types think it would be a good thing, if only they are in charge of it.
Aphrodite Macbain: How does it work Tura?
Eliza Madrigal: it is weird we're not talking about it more
druth Vlodovic: I'm sure the social credit program is just a logical extension
druth Vlodovic: they even have a thing that sends an alert that you are standing near somebody in debt
Tura Brezoianu: Everyone gets rated for prosocial or antisocial activities online. As defined by the Chinese government. Too low a score and e.g. you can't get a ticket for a long-distance train.
Tura Brezoianu: The top rank of scores are only attainable by members of the Communist Party.
Eliza Madrigal: and it filters your friends... too dangerous to one's own reputation to hang out with mediocre credit people
druth Vlodovic: I read a story once about a place where people had gold stars and red dots stuck to them, and anyone could put a gold star or red dot on you
Aphrodite Macbain: wow. sounds like a lot of bureaucratization work
Agatha Macbeth: Hope they made good use of them
druth Vlodovic: so those with lots of gold starts got more because they had gold stars already
Eliza Madrigal thinks of sneetches
Bruce Mowbray: Do we have models for lives lived according to algorithms – rather than “free will”?
Tura Brezoianu: All done automatically by silicon.
Aphrodite Macbain: sneetches?
Agatha Macbeth: (sneetches?)
Agatha Macbeth: Snap
Eliza Madrigal: Dr. Seuss, definitely worth looking up
druth Vlodovic: the ultimate skills will be making friends, hiding skeletons and sucking up
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Riddle Sideways: long ago, there was a Great Father Sarducci sketch on a good/bad credit system
Aphrodite Macbain: I think anyone working in the food, hotel or fashion insustries would be run by algorithms
Aphrodite Macbain: lol druth
Bruce Mowbray: I found it hard to believe that if Harari had utilized algorithms (bioletric devices) that could have informed him of his sexual orientation - that he would actually have accepted it right off the bat.
Tura Brezoianu: Someone did an experiment of "liking" everything that Facebook showed him. I forget the details, but the outcome was that his Facebook feed turned into trash.
Aphrodite Macbain: long ago ... what happend to it?
Eliza Madrigal: agree Bruce, my eyebrows raised at that
Bruce Mowbray: Yep.
Bruce Mowbray: Too many social pressure....
Bruce Mowbray: s
Aphrodite Macbain: I agree Bruce- emotions get in the way
Bruce Mowbray: a LOT of things get in the way.
Eliza Madrigal: [no good moment to add this] Here is the article about youtube, a bit long but worth reading: https://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...r-mind/534765/ , and here is another: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...outube/570838/
Aphrodite Macbain: we have biases
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks Eliza
Tura Brezoianu: Algorithms have a certain self-defeating property: if you make the decisions suggested by the algorithm, it stops getting any more information about you.
--BELL--1.30
Bruce Mowbray: Are my sub-conscious biases necessarily inferior to algorithms?
Riddle Sideways: thanks Eliza, more tabs
Aphrodite Macbain: not necessarily - and t depends what you mean by inferior
Bruce Mowbray nods, good point, Aph.
druth Vlodovic: My son told me that he deletes everything off of his feed from time to time
druth Vlodovic: well, by then they know everything that there is ever going to be to know about you
Aphrodite Macbain: I delete stuff immediately
Riddle Sideways: oh, found that the youTube page has a 'history' button and you can look at what you watched (and it recorded you watching)
Aphrodite Macbain: so does Second Life
Aphrodite Macbain: "Teleport History)
druth Vlodovic: I remmeber looking at a tracker blocking program that said it would "tell the websites not to track you"
druth Vlodovic: lol
Riddle Sideways: found that a tab never looked at is getting opened and recorded every start of browser
druth Vlodovic: "Pay no attention to the man sneaking past the door!"
Aphrodite Macbain: who bothers to read all these results?
Aphrodite Macbain: AI I suppose
Bruce Mowbray: Databanks.
druth Vlodovic: the logarithms
Riddle Sideways: youtube does, just before putting up what you should watch next
druth Vlodovic: not people certainly
druth Vlodovic: if you get demonetized by youtube you need a tghousand views before a human is even asked to look at why
Aphrodite Macbain: Isnt it odd that we are being only read by machines?
Bruce Mowbray: So, our children's notions of liberal democracy will be different from our own -- perhaps they will take the databanks in stride.
druth Vlodovic: or rather to look at the video, I don't think they ever find out why
Aphrodite Macbain: I think you're right. Will the millennials make it better or worse?
druth Vlodovic: instead of breaking the rules to be a rebel they will need to create order to rebel against the random nature of society
Aphrodite Macbain: Each society in the world will be run by different algorithms
Bruce Mowbray: So, the pre-millennials were "raise" by TV, and the millennials were raised by iPads?
Bruce Mowbray: raised*
Aphrodite Macbain: Which is worse?
Riddle Sideways: (until this year) most don't think about the Censes (sp?) the way the Grandparents did
druth Vlodovic: before that kids raised each other
Aphrodite Macbain: Census?
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm. Well, there is the illusion of "free will" in both, I suppose.
Riddle Sideways: ty
Eliza Madrigal: I like the question of whether we're already being run by invisible algorithms in our genetics/simulation universe... and our tampering is messy imitation
Catrinamonblue Resident: is it worse? worse than the past?
Catrinamonblue Resident: I don't think so myself :)
Aphrodite Macbain: hmm
Bruce Mowbray: Are you implying a matrix situation, Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: the question goes too far, but it is a fun line of thinking
Riddle Sideways: yep, the Matrix
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Riddle Sideways: listen to deja vu
Eliza Madrigal: which might make us feel a little more secure... that it is not really altogether new territory
Aphrodite Macbain: what does deja vue sound like?
Eliza Madrigal likes Cat's optimism
Bruce Mowbray: Actually, that notion is VERY old... as with Leibnetz'a notion that God is thinking the universe frame by frame.
Bruce Mowbray: Leibnitz? spelling, sry.
Aphrodite Macbain: so we have no control Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: That would be the case, yes.
Catrinamonblue Resident: :) I am optimistic, we as a people have survived and thrived, this is just another iteration of who we are :)
Eliza Madrigal: I just don't think we're learning fast enough... growing our hearts fast enough maybe
Aphrodite Macbain: smiles
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- it's hard to keep up
Bruce Mowbray: Of course, if one follows pure empiricism/logic, everything is the determined result of things that preceded it. . . so everything is determined, anyway.
Agatha Macbeth: Allegedly
Bruce Mowbray: i.e., no free will.
Riddle Sideways: religions like that
Bruce Mowbray: But let's don;t go there.
Aphrodite Macbain: I always like to feel I have SOME say in my decision-making process
Eliza Madrigal: how can we have free will if everyone has it?
Bruce Mowbray: I agree with you, Aph.
Aphrodite Macbain: but I am aware my parametres are narrow
Bruce Mowbray: Can I change my mind?
Riddle Sideways: no
Bruce Mowbray: hmmmm.
Eliza Madrigal: about? lol
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- but within a restricted rage of decisions
Bruce Mowbray: hmmmm, again.
Eliza Madrigal: so a little free will? :)
Aphrodite Macbain: good answer
druth Vlodovic: "Restricted rage of decisions" sounds like an experimental punk band
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Tura Brezoianu: We make decisions, and act on them. That's free will enough for me. People have no difficulty talking about computers making decisions, I don't see why there should be any difficulty when it comes to people.
Riddle Sideways: a little bit of free will makes the medicine go down, meds go down
Bruce Mowbray: Decisions like what to study, whom to marry, etc. could be made by bio-metrics. could make better decisions than we could about our own lives.
Aphrodite Macbain: I think we can decide what colour socks we put on this morning but I'm not sure whether planning my next move is going t be decided upon just by myaself
Catrinamonblue Resident: agree Tura :)
Eliza Madrigal: but Harari says we choose within a range of socks we're given
druth Vlodovic: raising kids it is best to let them make as many of their own decisions as possible, even obviously wrong ones
Eliza Madrigal: that's not totally free because we don't have access to lots of information
Aphrodite Macbain: thank goodness
druth Vlodovic: prevent them from dying and you've done your job
Eliza Madrigal: so we vote that way too
Tura Brezoianu: I can't choose to flap my arms and fly to the moon. No problem with that.
druth Vlodovic: if you don';t they end up dependent and limited
Bruce Mowbray: I think schools (and parents) should give more training in crap-detection.
Aphrodite Macbain: They can still learn a few useful lessons that might save them time, energy and money in the future
Agatha Macbeth: God help politicians if they did
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: ::;claps::::
Bruce Mowbray: tee hee, aggers!
Aphrodite Macbain: I learned a lot from my mother
--BELL--1.45
Bruce Mowbray: druth make an excellent point about children making their own choices....
Aphrodite Macbain: often subliminal lessons
Bruce Mowbray: and taking the consequences of their choices, of course.
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: You give them the alphabet and they write the words and poems
druth Vlodovic: "crap detection 101" today we are going to memorize the list of logical fallicies
Bruce Mowbray: Excellent!
Aphrodite Macbain: that would take a week druth
Bruce Mowbray: actually more like a lifetime.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes :)
druth Vlodovic: "today we are going to learn memorization techniques"
Bruce Mowbray: "Today we are goin to learn regurgitation of information techniques."
druth Vlodovic: for all that education experts say their job is to teach people how to learn they don't do much of it
Riddle Sideways: Occupational Crap Detection - OCD
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: cynics all
druth Vlodovic: there is nothing wrong with memorization, compare my math speed to that of someone who memorized their times tables in grade school
Bruce Mowbray: So, is the "solution" to let the algorithms make our decisions for us?
Aphrodite Macbain: I can still quote bits of Macbeth
Agatha Macbeth: Good!
Tura Brezoianu: ADHD = seeing thorugh the crap :)
Bruce Mowbray: Memorization is wonderful.
Riddle Sideways: ㋡
druth Vlodovic: we must rage against the machine while feeding it
Bruce Mowbray: Is this an algorithm I see before me?
Aphrodite Macbain: No- but to be aware of their power is important
Agatha Macbeth: @.@
Catrinamonblue Resident: agree Aph :)
Tura Brezoianu: Only if we find the decisions are good ones.
Aphrodite Macbain: or if we see how bad decisions are easily made
Bruce Mowbray: To Google or not to Google; that is the question.
Aphrodite Macbain: Maybe use another search engine?
Bruce Mowbray: Duck Duck Go?
Aphrodite Macbain: I'd be lost without Wiki
Bruce Mowbray: Bing?
Agatha Macbeth: Quack
Aphrodite Macbain: Bonk
Eliza Madrigal: [sorry to break in again, this is the right article, disregard previous. It seems that I am programmed to keep searching until finding] https://medium.com/@jamesbridle/some...t-c39c471271d2
Aphrodite Macbain: :) not a bad skill Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: my choice about how to live is to be with the people I'm with, though, and I still did that.... searched and searched. :)
Agatha Macbeth: Bravo
Aphrodite Macbain: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Seek and ye shall find
Eliza Madrigal: war of big and small picture
Riddle Sideways: too many take the first top search result
Eliza Madrigal: medium articles don't often make it to top searches
Agatha Macbeth: Which is usually an ad
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder if I had had the internet in my bedroom by the age of 13, I'd be a very different person now.
Eliza Madrigal: neat question
Riddle Sideways: looking for "Free Will" Amazon has that on sale with free shipping
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Aphrodite Macbain: James Brindle had
druth Vlodovic: I did that at work once, "you want to track my work? sure I'll tell you EVERYTHING."
druth Vlodovic: then they stopped asking lol
Aphrodite Macbain: but "they" are machines
Bruce Mowbray: Is phenomenology challenged by the databanks and algorithms? Do my own perceptions have value anymore?
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- but they are as much value as those held by all the others in the world
Bruce Mowbray: I would agree, Aph.
Aphrodite Macbain: Not one person is identical
Tura Brezoianu: The Medium article is an interesting contrast to Harari's naive view of all-knowing algorithms.
Bruce Mowbray: Unfortunately (maybe) some have more access, wealth, power, and influence than others. . . It's a big world, after all.
Aphrodite Macbain: Hard to imagine a successful democracy!
Bruce Mowbray ponders the meaning of "successful"
Aphrodite Macbain: I wish some people didnt vote!
Bruce Mowbray: and "basic" and "needs"
Aphrodite Macbain: (blushes - parhaps I shouldn't have said that out lound)
Eliza Madrigal: Tura, you mean implying that it is the way used by people?
Bruce Mowbray: Well one of Harari's main points is that we vote our FELLINGS - not our reason.
Bruce Mowbray: FEELINGS*
Aphrodite Macbain: nods. the algorithms are more logical??
Tura Brezoianu: It's just that the algorithms generating those millions of kids videos clearly know nothing about anything but clicks.

Time to scoot

Bruce Mowbray: I must scoot away to a meditation now. Thanks, everyone, for this lively discussion.
Aphrodite Macbain: a special kind of logic
Eliza Madrigal: true, they were totally at the mercy of keywords
Agatha Macbeth: Scoot well Brucie
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bruce :) thank you
Riddle Sideways: happy scooting
Bruce Mowbray: _/|\_
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Bruce
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Bruce :)
Agatha Macbeth: _/!\_
Tura Brezoianu: While Harari talks about algorithms that will magically diagnose cancer when it's just 17 rogue cells.
Aphrodite Macbain: imagines scooting to meditate
Eliza Madrigal: he's imagining improvement based on pace so far
Agatha Macbeth: Or meditating to scoot
--BELL--2.00
druth Vlodovic: Zencrafters, total enlightenment in less than an hour
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Riddle Sideways: and stating that we will Always be sick someplace in body
Aphrodite Macbain: how much?
Riddle Sideways: you can't afford it
Aphrodite Macbain: rats
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I keep having the question about whether people would sign up to be completely monitored by AI for say 3-6 months, and then agree to a life plan it designs... we're so improvement based as a culture
Tura Brezoianu: Cheaper to zap a few rogue cells now than have rounds of radiation and chemotherapy later.
Catrinamonblue Resident: interesting idea Eliza :)
druth Vlodovic: I'd worry what parameters the AI would have for "improved"
Tura Brezoianu: If the technology is there to do it, but that's a very big if.
Eliza Madrigal: I think lots would do it: instagram ready in 8 months
Riddle Sideways: reading that section, was looking at the Fitbit
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I love the portions on medicine, think on balance it is positive
Riddle Sideways: and Insurance companies that would raise your price if you don't follow
druth Vlodovic: "I can't imagine being enlightened, I can only imagine becoming someone who is enlightened"
Catrinamonblue Resident: fitbit doesn't let you lie to yourself though...
Eliza Madrigal: sharp point Cat, ouch :)
druth Vlodovic: there is a joke from 20 years ago about a guy ordering pizza from a place that had all his information on file
Catrinamonblue Resident: :) useful though too
Riddle Sideways: /listens to joke
druth Vlodovic: it goes on for a while
Tura Brezoianu: /speculates on punch line
Catrinamonblue Resident: lol
druth Vlodovic: but basically they are advising him on what to order based on his fitness and his finances
druth Vlodovic: so he ends up getting something completely different than he called for
Tura Brezoianu: I now realise that a Youtube video I saw is a remake of that joke.
Eliza Madrigal: that's like having a spouse
Catrinamonblue Resident: could be he likes it better than what he was going to order ;)
Tura Brezoianu: The Internet is our spouse.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
druth Vlodovic: heck in the bible there is a story about a debate on whether or not they should do a census, the worry being that if the king had too much info he would use it to levy taxes and raise armies
Agatha Macbeth: Actually it's better
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks for this session everyone :)
Tura Brezoianu: ...except you can turn the Internet off :)
druth Vlodovic: ttfn Eliza
Aphrodite Macbain: I guess we all really have to "continue to be mindful" of dastardly algorithms
Eliza Madrigal: Nice close, Aph!
druth Vlodovic: theoretically Tura
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks everyone for your data
Eliza Madrigal laughs
Riddle Sideways: ok, scoots back to OCD
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Everyone is scooting
Eliza Madrigal: and skedaddling
Aphrodite Macbain: chuckles
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I'd rather slouch
Agatha Macbeth: What a lot of scooters we are
Eliza Madrigal: ♥ ♥ ♥
Tura Brezoianu: Interesting that we record all these sessions!
Aphrodite Macbain: reading "Slouching to Bethlehem"
Eliza Madrigal: needs a session of its own, that topic :))
Agatha Macbeth: ♥ ♥ ♥
druth Vlodovic: interesting that anybody reads them
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: by long-legged Eliza
Riddle Sideways: wha, some do
druth Vlodovic: oh we have done that, remember the kerfuffle when we deleted everyone's name from a session?
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Eliza :)
Aphrodite Macbain: hundreds of years ago
druth Vlodovic: thousandsa
Aphrodite Macbain: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Billions and billions!
Catrinamonblue Resident: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: wow
Aphrodite Macbain: amazing we all remember it
Riddle Sideways: ha
Catrinamonblue Resident: must run :) Have some company coming :) bye all
Catrinamonblue Resident: Thanks for a lovely time :)
Aphrodite Macbain: what a was it again druth?
Tura Brezoianu: bye Cat
Agatha Macbeth: Have a good scoot Cat
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Cat. GTSY
Riddle Sideways: spell checking kerfuffle
druth Vlodovic: ttfn
druth Vlodovic: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
druth Vlodovic: is there a right way to spell it?
Aphrodite Macbain: that way looks good
Agatha Macbeth: Thought that was something you eat in N. Africa
Aphrodite Macbain: rofl
druth Vlodovic: "I will have a kerfuffle with jam."
Riddle Sideways: comes on your next pizza order
Agatha Macbeth: Pizza be with you
Aphrodite Macbain: and whipped cream
Agatha Macbeth: And chips
druth Vlodovic: mmm, pizza with jam and whipped cream
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye all
Agatha Macbeth: TC Aphie
Aphrodite Macbain: HAsta la vista
druth Vlodovic: ta ta all y'all
Agatha Macbeth: Love to the mooses
Tura Brezoianu: bye Aph, and goodnight all
Agatha Macbeth: Looks like that's it then
Agatha Macbeth: TTFN
Agatha Macbeth: And Korel always thought it was her :p