2017.07.10 13:00 – Up on Blocks

The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.

Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Mick
Mickorod Renard: Hi Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Cat
Aphrodite Macbain: Tura
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Aph, Mick Tura :)
Aphrodite Macbain: we are all spread apart!
Tura Brezoianu: hi all
Mickorod Renard: Hi cat, Tura
Aphrodite Macbain: How are you all?
Aphrodite Macbain: Enjoying the summer?
Mickorod Renard: good thanks
Aphrodite Macbain: It hasn’t rained here in 3 weeks
Catrinamonblue Resident: summer is good :)
Tura Brezoianu: 'ot.
Catrinamonblue Resident: that's unusual Aph for your area?
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes- very bad. Many very serious wild fires
Aphrodite Macbain: destroying homes
Catrinamonblue Resident: oh :(
Mickorod Renard: yikes
Aphrodite Macbain: It's in the news
Mickorod Renard: brb
Aphrodite Macbain: k
Catrinamonblue Resident: I generally stay away from the news, are you ok where you are Aph?
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm on the coast
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: the wildfires are in the interior
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, everyone!
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: destroying swaths of forests
Tura Brezoianu: hi Bruce
Bruce Mowbray listens to catch the drift.
Mickorod Renard: Hi Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: just talking about the weather
Aphrodite Macbain: and the dryness
Aphrodite Macbain: and the wildfire
Bruce Mowbray: ahhh. same in California and the southwest US.
Aphrodite Macbain: Aggers-ji
Bruce Mowbray: AGGERS! Welcome back!

--BELL--

Agatha Macbeth: G'dayji
Aphrodite Macbain: hiya!
Mickorod Renard: very dry here at the mo…considering it’s the uk
Mickorod Renard: hi Ags
Agatha Macbeth: Welcome back? Where did I go?
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Aggers :)
Bruce Mowbray: I've not seen you for a while.
Aphrodite Macbain: You weren't here last week I think
Bruce Mowbray: (in our midst, I mean).
Aphrodite Macbain: or at the Guardians meeting
Agatha Macbeth grins
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Agatha Macbeth: No I didn't know about it
Aphrodite Macbain: Aggers-in-the Midst
Agatha Macbeth: Until afterwards
Mickorod Renard: i was away for the g meet
Bruce Mowbray: ahhh. I may have left before you arrived then.
Aphrodite Macbain: we will have to have a big G. meeting so we can talk about the party next year
Bruce Mowbray: I was too, Mick.
Aphrodite Macbain: anyway
Agatha Macbeth: Nothing like starting early!
Aphrodite Macbain: I hope you found the last reading interesting...
Bruce Mowbray: I found it VERY interesting.
Mickorod Renard: unfortunately i did not read this week…I am sorry but things overwhelmed me
Aphrodite Macbain: I found it a bit confusing but also a source of new thoughts
Bruce Mowbray: for sure, Aph.
Aphrodite Macbain watches Aggers sitting pretty
Agatha Macbeth: I don't sit any other way :p
Aphrodite Macbain: true :-)
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Raff
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Raffi
Raffila Millgrove: Hi all.
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Raffi.
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Raffi
Aphrodite Macbain: I guess we can start
Mickorod Renard: Hi raffi
Aphrodite Macbain: does anyone have any comments or reports?
Agatha Macbeth: Druthy :)
Bruce Mowbray: I have a very brief report.
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya druth
Agatha Macbeth: (That was a greeting not a comment)
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, druth!
druth Vlodovic: :P
Aphrodite Macbain: I figured Aggers
druth Vlodovic: hoy
Mickorod Renard: Hi druth
druth Vlodovic: please go on Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: waits for Bleu who is on her way
Bruce Mowbray: Here comes Bleu.
Agatha Macbeth: Yay
Bruce Mowbray also waits for Bleu.
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Bleu.
Agatha Macbeth: Bleuji :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Bleu
druth Vlodovic: hi bleu
Agatha Macbeth: Woot
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Bleu :)
Bleu Oleander: hi y'all :)
Mickorod Renard: hi bleu
Bruce Mowbray: Very well, then, here is my brief report:
Bruce Mowbray: Again, it is essential that we remember “hallucination” is Maxine’s word for an individual’s “interior mental activity.”
Aphrodite Macbain: listens
Bruce Mowbray: “Hallucinations” are not necessarily illusions; nor are they mirages – like seeing the optical illusion of a distant ‘lake’ in a real desert.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Bruce Mowbray: The danger with hallucinations (as well as with dream interpretation) is that we might regard them as “all there is” – or, as the text might say, “that we would entrap ourselves in an un-differentiated view of things” and regard that limited view as the only possible reality.
Bruce Mowbray: This section of the book explains Maxine’s vivid dream – with two vividly contrasting images: a dark, isolated closet and a well-lit room, replete with food, drink and lively people.
Bruce Mowbray: Maxine eventually came to (chose to?) interpret her dream as providing a transformative insight into real options for her real-world experience – so long as she did not limit herself to the un-differentiated enclosure of an “all-there-is,” isolated-in-the-dark-closet view of her situation. [done]
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Bruce
Agatha Macbeth: A mirage can be 'real' to an extent
Bruce Mowbray: yw :)
Aphrodite Macbain: What did you think about her "take" on her dream?
Bruce Mowbray: perhaps, Aggers, until you arrive at the "lake"
Agatha Macbeth listens
Bruce Mowbray: I thought her 'take' on her own dream was great!
Bruce Mowbray: It brought her out of a "trapped" viewpoint.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Mickorod Renard: what was un differentiated again? pls
Bruce Mowbray: limited to just a narrow view, Mick.
Mickorod Renard: ah that’s right ty Bruce.
Bruce Mowbray: "that's all there is"
Aphrodite Macbain: Did anyone else feel the same way about her dream and her interpretation?
Bruce Mowbray: yw :)
Bleu Oleander: it’s important to remember that Maxine is using the word hallucination to mean something different than is used to mean something seen as existing in the world but not there and not seen by anyone else ... her definition seems to include much more phenomena
Aphrodite Macbain: an internal creation
Aphrodite Macbain: it is not an indication of something wrong
Mickorod Renard: yes Bleu. almost just a self-made vision
Bleu Oleander: yes, but using the same brain pathways as perception so different than dreams
Aphrodite Macbain: I found it interesting that she looked at the form rather than the content of the dream
Aphrodite Macbain: the mood
Aphrodite Macbain: the emotional significance
Bruce Mowbray: Indeed, Bleu, and in this section she uses dream interpretation to broaden that perceptual pathway.
Aphrodite Macbain: rather than it’s literally being rooms
Aphrodite Macbain: she felt blah and down represented by a dark or a beige room rather than engaged and interesting like the busy room
Bruce Mowbray nods, agrees with Aph.

Catrinamonblue Resident: slips away... sorry RL calls :)
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Aphrodite Macbain: OK Cat. BFN
Mickorod Renard: bye Cat

--BELL--

Mickorod Renard: I never read the section…but there is always the issue of state of mind where one state may see something as intuitive vision and another state something bleak.
Raffila Millgrove: darn it. i read this. but i can't bring it up to my mind. maybe i can fetch the kindle up and try to re-read it real quickly.
Aphrodite Macbain: It is important for us to understand the underpinnings of our hallucination,
Aphrodite Macbain: to realize what is real and fixed
Aphrodite Macbain: and what is not
Bruce Mowbray: indeed, Aph, and also to recognize that we may not be as "trapped" or limited in our options are the hallucination might say we are.
Aphrodite Macbain: right
Bruce Mowbray listens....
Aphrodite Macbain: It is interesting that, she says, our wider view of the situation comes through a dream- a gift from the right side of the brain
Bruce Mowbray nods
Bruce Mowbray: afk for just a sec....
Aphrodite Macbain: It's as though the right brain can only be heard in dreams
Aphrodite Macbain: through the metaphors it creates
Aphrodite Macbain: like an empty room, and a bright busy one
Mickorod Renard: that’s very interesting
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: memory and thought linking together
Aphrodite Macbain: in dream life
Mickorod Renard: as an avid dreamer I generally appreciate the extension to viewpoints that my dreams offer
Aphrodite Macbain: she calls the dreams communications
Aphrodite Macbain: rather than condemnations
Mickorod Renard: yes, lovely
Aphrodite Macbain: it's trying to tell you something. If this is an hallucination - then bring it on
Bleu Oleander: what is "it's"?
Aphrodite Macbain: the right brain Bleu
Aphrodite Macbain: is what she suggests. Did you read it differently?

Mickorod Renard: but again, that’s all well and good if you are in a generally ok state of mind
Bruce Mowbray remembers that weeks ago he expressed that hallucinations are "survival enhancing"
Tura Brezoianu: The important thing is to be aware of them *as* hallucinations
Tura Brezoianu: instead of taking them for reality itself
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Bruce Mowbray nods, agrees with Tura.
Tura Brezoianu: when you have that distance, you can think about what they might mean and not be caught up in them, them driving you
Aphrodite Macbain: but she says that although they are hallucinations-they still are telling you something useful
Aphrodite Macbain: yes Tura
Bleu Oleander: we give meaning to our dreams
Aphrodite Macbain: give them space and boundaries
druth Vlodovic: I imagine that if sudden action is required you will be able to react faster to your imaginings than your observations

Aphrodite Macbain: or not think at all druth

Aphrodite Macbain: yes-did you agree with Maxine's interpretation of her dream Bleu?
Bleu Oleander: well I can't give an interpretation to her dream ... really only Maxine can
Aphrodite Macbain: true
Bleu Oleander: I don't think dreams have meanings other than the meaning we give them
Mickorod Renard: it may be worth me saying that i have had dreams that I felt sad to leave...and as such could be a reflection that i am unhappy…or have been unhappy with my real life state of affairs...this then could be seen as...what’s the word?...erm..like hiding or avoiding as in the other section we read
Mickorod Renard: sorry bleu…i butted in
Bleu Oleander: np :)
Bleu Oleander: carry on
Mickorod Renard: no, that was all I meant to say
Aphrodite Macbain: are they often the same situation Mick?
Mickorod Renard: no not really, and not often...just an observation
Aphrodite Macbain: I am constantly amazed by the creativity of our brain - the metaphors it uses
Aphrodite Macbain: I think these metaphors are what Maxine calls hallucinations...
Mickorod Renard: it’s amazing isn’t it aph
Aphrodite Macbain: so a rectilinear, dark space = boring and bland
Mickorod Renard: i am often more amazed at wondering where it all came from than the message it may be trying to project
Bruce Mowbray: Sadly, my dreams usually are the inverse of Maxine's dream. My dreams usually create a more negative and limited scenario than my "hallucinations." When I wake, I have to remind myself that I am not actually "trapped," as I felt in the dream.

--BELL--

Aphrodite Macbain: yes our brains are far more capable than we can ever imagine Mick
Mickorod Renard: that’s an interesting other side of the coin Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: There is a storehouse of memory it pulls from
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes- I have those dreams too Bruce. I feel so relieved when I wake
Bruce Mowbray nods, relates to Aph.
Aphrodite Macbain: Why do you think we have them?
Bruce Mowbray: I sort of chalk them up to childhood powerlessness. . .
Aphrodite Macbain: why do we scare ourselves?
Aphrodite Macbain: listens
Bruce Mowbray: Maybe our brains are reminding us "not to go there again."
Aphrodite Macbain: yes maybe
Bruce Mowbray: Not to put ourselves in those circumstances again.
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder whether the brains plays out scenarios so we can be prepared if they ever happen.
Bleu Oleander: sorry, need to slip away ... take care all
Aphrodite Macbain: yes snap Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: bye, Bleu.
Mickorod Renard: bye Bleu
Aphrodite Macbain: OK Byee
Mickorod Renard: I almost look at them as some restore program like being run through a computer…something reacting to dark worries or thoughts
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Aph, that's exactly what I meant when I said that hallucinations (and dreams) can be survival enhancing.
Mickorod Renard: one day they will put them down to algorithms
Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps the takeaway, as Mick suggests, is that we should spend time thinking about the dreams-try to find out what they are telling us
Aphrodite Macbain: algorithms?
Mickorod Renard: once I accepted the dreams as constructs of the mind rather than external interference...I concluded they must have a useful purpose
Aphrodite Macbain: She begins this section talking about the violence in this world and how these hallucinations could be its underpinnings
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, thanks for reminding us of that, Aph.

Mickorod Renard: what is 'these' in this case Aph?
Aphrodite Macbain: this dynamic of splitting and closing down
Raffila Millgrove: that part I do remember: the violence thing. the underpinnings. the only reason I recall.. is that i don't exactly agree . lol

Tura Brezoianu: I think of dreaming as like the brain is car up on blocks and half taken apart, and the parts are doing their own thing
Bruce Mowbray: Wow, what an amazing metaphor, Tura!
Raffila Millgrove: very nice Tura. great image.
Aphrodite Macbain: great metaphor Tura
Mickorod Renard: that’s an interesting idea to ponder on Tura
Aphrodite Macbain: Raffi - can you say more?
Bruce Mowbray: Gives a lively imagery to "splitting," too.
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Tura Brezoianu: it can tell you something about how the parts are functioning that you might not be able to see in the assembled machine.
Raffila Millgrove: not really. lol i am enjoying Tura's picture of the repair shop.
Raffila Millgrove: I really like it when someone brings it down.. to.. everyday stuff.. we can all understand and that car repair shop is so.. accessible for understanding.
Aphrodite Macbain: It sounds a bit like the sorcerer's apprentice
Raffila Millgrove: esp if you are visual person.
Aphrodite Macbain: when everything goes out of control
Bruce Mowbray: Well, that's sort of why I questioned Maxine's "choice" of the brighter room.
Aphrodite Macbain: the mechanic is out to lunch!
Bruce Mowbray: How much real control do we have over these things?
Aphrodite Macbain: not much unless we can do lucid dreaming

Mickorod Renard: I have done some semi controlled lucid dreaming and its pitfall is that if you have any control its lost its purpose
Raffila Millgrove: it's so true about how you can't figure out the car unless you can see these parts... they are so often hidden.
Raffila Millgrove: my mechanic showed me a part. he had replaced. i nearly fell over.. i learned so much from looking at the part.
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Agatha Macbeth: 0.0
Aphrodite Macbain: what part Raffi? :)
Raffila Millgrove: not about how a car worked but actually that my car was really sick. that anything rubber or plastic in it.. was breaking down.. that it just wasn't safe for my grandchildren to ride in it.
Bruce Mowbray: Wow. Great insight, Raffi.
Agatha Macbeth: Good grief
Raffila Millgrove: if i looked at the car.. .. as a whole. i didn't see this.. but when i saw the part.. then suddenly i went. omg this is over. my dear car is dying.
Bruce Mowbray: The rubber tubes all eventually harden and crack.
Aphrodite Macbain: seeing is believing and maybe fully understanding?
Raffila Millgrove: yes. everything that wasn't metal Bruce in this car.. was in process of total decay.
Bruce Mowbray nods, been there, done that.
Aphrodite Macbain: I hope you got it fixed or bought a new car Raffi!
Raffila Millgrove: but i didn't know this till i could examine a rather large individual part. outside of the car.. just look at it close up.. by itself.

--BELL--

Raffila Millgrove: then i went. omg this is over and my mechanic said. strange you should say this. i just happen to have a car i am nearly done fixing to sell. so we end up both very happy.
Bruce Mowbray: :))
Mickorod Renard: :)
Agatha Macbeth: maktoub
Raffila Millgrove: yeah so now i have a very safe.. old lady car. it is "loaded" and i am trying to learn how to navigate a boat around.. as i was used to very zippy Mazda or Beemer, and this thing is an old lady Oldsmobile. I like it. my family says it's a car for a queen. i am having a lot of fun in it.

Aphrodite Macbain: Does anyone else have any comments on the reading? Do you think it is possible to develop this balanced attitude of left and right brain, "bounded spaciousness"?

Bruce Mowbray: Now, Raffi, what if that whole scenario with the mechanic had happened for you in a dream?
Raffila Millgrove: but it is true as this section of book.. considers...and Tura said.. that are parts. not just a whole. you can see the parts in these hallucinations.
Bruce Mowbray: /me: ahhhh.... (there it is).
Raffila Millgrove: oh if it happened in a dream.. i would rush over to my mechanic.. because i know.. soon he would have this car.. for real. i have followed many dreams like that. you got info.. you didn't know you had.
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Raffila Millgrove: it's not seeing a future.. it's seeing something.. you didn't notice.. that is info.. you can use from the dream.
Agatha Macbeth ponders a dream mechanic

Aphrodite Macbain: Do you think it is possible to develop this balanced attitude of left and right brain, "bounded spaciousness"?

Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder how we can control any of this
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I do feel that it can be trained.
Raffila Millgrove: like my granddaughter woke up and said she had a dream her nails were painted in sparkling white.... so we did her nails a little later that day in sparkling white!
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Raffila Millgrove: you should pay attention to dreams and go with that flow.
Aphrodite Macbain: dream fulfilment
Bruce Mowbray: Dreams really CAN come true!
Raffila Millgrove: that is what i told her anyway.
Raffila Millgrove: I didn't even realize I had a sparkling white nail polish.
Aphrodite Macbain: especially if you ask your grandma for help
Raffila Millgrove: she must have noticed it.. her brain notice when I open cabinet one day.. it must have recorded the nail polish. and knowing we would do her nails later.. it showed her the polish colors in dream. as she also wanted a blue..
Raffila Millgrove: and we had that too strangely. i never paint my nails in either one.
Tura Brezoianu: maybe the dream called the nail polish into existence?
Raffila Millgrove: i think her dream showed her nail polish .. as she went to sleep thinking about a manicure.
Raffila Millgrove: i think. we do this all the time... get info we already have.. and don't realize... from the dreams.
Aphrodite Macbain: I feel that there is so much we cannot control but I guess we can pay attention to our dreams
Raffila Millgrove: like the data indexer .. goes "manicure"? let’s see what we have in the file to show you.
Aphrodite Macbain: pink? clear? green?

Bruce Mowbray ponders a poster saying, "Everyone carries within herself the world in which she must live."
Aphrodite Macbain: must?

Bruce Mowbray: yep, that's what the poster says.

Raffila Millgrove: that's the dream. it uses the data indexer.. to tell stories. to keep busy cause it has no sensory data to organize.
Agatha Macbeth nods
Agatha Macbeth: It's called an inventory
Raffila Millgrove: lol.. yes. that's true.
Agatha Macbeth: :P

Mickorod Renard: I will mention…that if you want to recall your dreams you must take action to do so...like trying to recall and writing them down first thing on waking
Mickorod Renard: once you start trying to recall it will escalate
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Mick, I've done that with a small voice recorder.
Aphrodite Macbain: So that is an action one CAN take right Mick?
Mickorod Renard: yes, for sure aph
Aphrodite Macbain: and then really and think about their meaning?
Mickorod Renard: that will come once you recall a dream yes

Raffila Millgrove: i was reading an old journal today.. that had an interesting dream in it.. and I was like. wow.. that really did work out that way later.
Raffila Millgrove: my best one is ... the minster of our church. he came to visit one day.. as he was brand new.. at my mom's house, but i was there housesitting.. so i met him.
Raffila Millgrove: it was his first week.
Raffila Millgrove: and we lived close to church.. so he walked over.. to pay the obligatory pastoral call.
Raffila Millgrove: and i dreamed that night that he would go down in flames. that he would leave the church in disgrace.
Bruce Mowbray: :(
Aphrodite Macbain: listens to Raffi's story
Mickorod Renard: erk
Raffila Millgrove: and we became best of friends.. for all our lives.. but that happened.
Aphrodite Macbain: why?
Raffila Millgrove: five years later.. just as I had dreamed. left in disgrace.
Aphrodite Macbain: Why did u dream he would go down in flames? do you think?
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm. a similar thing happened to the minister of our church when I was in high school.....
Mickorod Renard: Raffi, what did you do to him :))
Aphrodite Macbain:
Raffila Millgrove: I think Aph because.... of who he was.. he was not ready to be a pastor at a church. and i think my brain recorded all the reasons.. as it listened to him and showed me that outcome.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I agree with Raffi's interpretation.
Aphrodite Macbain: interesting

Raffila Millgrove: i think Mick was suggesting using a recorder to help you remember dreams.
Mickorod Renard: or writing them down
Mickorod Renard: yes raffi
Bruce Mowbray: Well, I suggested the voice recorder -- Mick suggested writing them down.
Raffila Millgrove: this dream i had i remembered as it seemed so strange.. it was so vivid. that i knew.. it was going to happen.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes--but to what purpose?
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Raffila Millgrove: because i really liked this guy and he had his whole heart into being a good pastor. he just didn't have the tools he needed.
Agatha Macbeth: Like a mechanic

Mickorod Renard: ah, ok the purpose is that you prob dream every night.,,several dreams,.,but you forget straight away...so you have to change your conditioning to access the dreams

Mickorod Renard: and to do this you need to catch them before you get out of bed
Bruce Mowbray loves the image of "catching the dream"
Aphrodite Macbain imagines dumping out her head at the bedside

Aphrodite Macbain: Imagine if everything we dreamed came true!
Bruce Mowbray: OH MY! I surely hope not, Aph.

--BELL--

Raffila Millgrove: he went back to school. he taught at Stanford for some time.. and then.. he.. studied how to be a good pastor and tried again.
Aphrodite Macbain: How do you learn how to be a good pastor in school?
Raffila Millgrove: when he tried the second time.. he was hugely successful. so good. beloved and a wonderful pastor. for 25 hears.
Raffila Millgrove: no Aph i mean he went to school to teach. he taught religion.
Raffila Millgrove: and while supporting himself in this way.. he studied about being a church pastor. in various ways..
Mickorod Renard: lovely devotion Raffi
Raffila Millgrove: his gift at the time.. he failed. he was in his head. he was intellectual. he couldn't see himself or know how to run a business you might say.
Raffila Millgrove: like organizing stuff. keeping records, admin. he was no good with that... later he got very good at balance and stopped preaching to college students. he learned to preach to people every day people.
Bruce Mowbray: I will! :)
Raffila Millgrove: he had to get that out o fhis system.. that need to.. be intellectualizing and teaching.. he was very good with it....
Aphrodite Macbain: working both sides of the brain :-)
Raffila Millgrove: exactly.
Raffila Millgrove: eventually he got balance. using all his skills. not just half.
Raffila Millgrove: learning how to do stuff he didn't know. like how to hire people, how to supervize etc.

Bruce Mowbray: Thank you, everyone! A FINE session today. TY, Aph, for leading, too!
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Bruce
Mickorod Renard: bye Bruce ty
Agatha Macbeth: Scrape well Brucie

Aphrodite Macbain: I am enjoying the concept of bounded spaciousness. I don’t quite understand it but I feel it's right
Aphrodite Macbain: both sides working together
druth Vlodovic: so he succeeded by concentrating on what he was bad at?
Mickorod Renard: I love the saying' gone off the rails'
Raffila Millgrove: well yeah. you could put it that way. that is true.
Raffila Millgrove: lol that is what he did.
Agatha Macbeth: He worked at it
Raffila Millgrove: figured out where/how he failed and learned what he needed to not fail that way again.
Agatha Macbeth: Smart bloke
Raffila Millgrove: you know what you really need for something is the desire to do it and do it well. most stuff.. you can. it just might take a while. but you need the deep desire to do it.
Raffila Millgrove: to keep you going.. while you master something other people might not even have to learn..
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- a passion and a strong need
Aphrodite Macbain: it's easy to fall off the rails (smiles)
Mickorod Renard: but that may lead to obsession?
Aphrodite Macbain: it may
Raffila Millgrove: i believe you can do almost anything. at a level of competency.. it's just.. how bad.. do you want to do it.. and can you last thru many years maybe.. struggling on something others can do in a year.
Raffila Millgrove: well you have to choose.. how much does this matter to me? can i endure what it will take to be good at it.

Aphrodite Macbain: I think the hardest thing is to change my attitudes, my beliefs in things
,Aphrodite Macbain: especially if ur not motivated to do so
Aphrodite Macbain: and that's what we need in the world
Aphrodite Macbain: a shift in attitude
Raffila Millgrove: it's hard sometimes to even recognize your attitude or belief.. they are so deeply ingrained.. we don't even realize we have it.
Aphrodite Macbain: trouble is--which attitude?
Aphrodite Macbain: yes Raffi- that's a big part of the problem
Raffila Millgrove: like that “us vs them” thing. that's the core of violence perhaps.. and it's ingrained.. or rather hard-wired.. it's now thought.
Aphrodite Macbain: that's why we need other people
Aphrodite Macbain: with diverse perspectives
Raffila Millgrove: you are not going to get around that ”need to be us and them”..... in a hurry. that's why i think maybe we will always have war.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods It's hard wired
Raffila Millgrove: but we can have war like in old days.
Mickorod Renard: I have seen some people so clever they can do very high up jobs but they don’t seem to have the ability to empty the trash
Raffila Millgrove: where they couldn't afford to lose young men.
druth Vlodovic: use your illusion
Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps they don’t want to Mick
Mickorod Renard: exactly
Aphrodite Macbain: illusion druth?
Aphrodite Macbain: let it motivate you?
druth Vlodovic: it was the name of an album, Metallica or somebody, the phrase seemed fitting with talking about hallucinations and changing your perception to make a success
Aphrodite Macbain: makes sense druth

Raffila Millgrove: so they all lined up.. two tribes across a river and they shot arrows at each other--or were throwing spear things.. until one guy died. then they stopped. and that side was declared the loser and the other side had to pay a big payment to the dead guys family.. and in this way they would have a "war".

Aphrodite Macbain: what is that from Raffi?
Raffila Millgrove: they had to be practical about not killing each other for their own survival. they agreed to quit at one.
Raffila Millgrove: It's from my old anthropology courses. cultural sociology or whatever.
Aphrodite Macbain: too bad one had to die
Raffila Millgrove: i never forgot it.
Raffila Millgrove: well somebody had to die. it was a war. only one tho.
Aphrodite Macbain: some play very rough games
Aphrodite Macbain: and reenact warfare
Raffila Millgrove: and his family got a payment a big one.. so that they could keep going....
druth Vlodovic: a sense of honour, funny how in fiction the honourable people are seen as losers, when it is a very important positive survival technique
Agatha Macbeth: A war where only one person gets killed isn't so bad...except for that person :p
Aphrodite Macbain: lol Aggers
druth Vlodovic: that one person gets honoured and remembered
Aphrodite Macbain: the sacrificial victim

Raffila Millgrove: this was to survive. they could not start real fighting .. they didn't have enough young men. they'd all die if they threw a real war.. that's why they came up with this solution for two enemy tribes.
Aphrodite Macbain: sounds like a Margaret Meade story
Raffila Millgrove: so what i am thinking is...
Agatha Macbeth: Reminds me of an episode of Star Trek
Mickorod Renard: but we have so many people on the planet the powers that be would have no prob getting rid of a few of us
Raffila Millgrove: maybe we got to do this currently.
Aphrodite Macbain: who should get killed Raffi?
Raffila Millgrove: have some kind of ritual wars that do NOT have terrible consequences.
Raffila Millgrove: because we must be hardwired to have war.. so we gotta have more practical. more ritual ones that are not gonna kill everyone. and cause so much misery.
druth Vlodovic: many primitive people had special afterlives for the war dead so that being killed in battle was a good thing

Aphrodite Macbain: the promise of Paradise druth? Paradise and many virgins

--BELL--

Mickorod Renard: it’s a good job those in charge will eventually get old or they would think of a way to get rid of old folk
Raffila Millgrove: we need to think maybe. how could we have some of these more .. safe.. wars.

Agatha Macbeth: How is Paradise these days?
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Agatha Macbeth: Haven't seen her here in ages
Raffila Millgrove: where is she? we do not see her for so long.
Raffila Millgrove: I suddenly miss her.
Aphrodite Macbain: aww
Raffila Millgrove: she liked music. she was always playing interesting music for us.
Aphrodite Macbain: she is happily living in Toronto
Raffila Millgrove: why does she not come see us aph?
Raffila Millgrove: she was so pretty and fun to have around.
Agatha Macbeth: Agreed
Mickorod Renard: we could all send her a message
Aphrodite Macbain must go and eat lunch before  she loses consciousness
Aphrodite Macbain: Eliza was going to try and make it today but I'm sure she'll be here on Thursday.
druth Vlodovic: I have to go food as well
Agatha Macbeth: Woot
Raffila Millgrove: we should look for her and ask her to come see us.
Aphrodite Macbain: ok  byeee
Mickorod Renard: bye aph, great session..apols for not reading
druth Vlodovic: ttfn
Raffila Millgrove: can you ask her aph?
Aphrodite Macbain: sure. If I see her
Tura Brezoianu: I'll be going as well
Raffila Millgrove: oh please do.. tell her we remember her so well and miss her!
Mickorod Renard: and me,.,bye all
Agatha Macbeth: Right!
Tura Brezoianu: bye all
Agatha Macbeth: Byee
Raffila Millgrove: ok ty for hosting us today.... we will report you as very gracious.... lovely host! lol