04-06 We Seeing

(In Progress- Eliza, Filling in for Mick :)

Calvino Rabeni: spirit is a high and light energy, wants to transcend
Calvino Rabeni: soul is a deep, dark, slow energy, in which many things are hidden
Calvino Rabeni: like the womb
Calvino Rabeni: it is a source and safekeeping of things
Tarmel Udimo: yes this is the approach the book takes
Zon Quar: the book sounds interesting
Calvino Rabeni: soul is yin, spirit is yang
Zon Quar: ive been thinking about darkness too lately
Zon Quar: the inevitability of it
Calvino Rabeni: yes, most of the universe is dark
Zon Quar: and the way it is interlinked to light
Zon Quar: part of the same pulse
Calvino Rabeni: dark is the background out of which light arises
Calvino Rabeni: the insides of things are dark
Tarmel Udimo: yes its like looking at the play of shadows and knowing that they are created by light
--
Eden writes:
As I saw the Mary Oliver's poem scrolling down in local chat, I found it so beautiful I had this impulse to
open the vocal chat and to read the rest of it aloud, discovering it as I read

Zen Arado: 'You do not have to be good. You do not have to walk on your knees for a hundred miles through
 the desert, repenting. You only have to let the soft animal of your body love what it loves. Tell me about
despair, yours, and I will tell you mine. Meanwhile the world goes on. Meanwhile the sun and the clear pebbles
 of the rain are moving across the landscapes, over the prairies and the deep trees, the mountains and the rivers.
Meanwhile the wild geese, high in the clean blue air, are heading home again. Whoever you are, no matter how
lonely, the world offers itself to your imagination, calls to you like the wild geese, harsh and exciting-- over and
over announcing your place in the family of things.' © Mary Oliver. Online Source

--

Wol Euler: During the pause I tried a bit of ES to remind myself of the "flavour" of it, and actually discovered an objection to it
Wol Euler: I felt that there was too much "thinking" in it
Wol Euler: that the effort of visualization can stand in the way
Wol Euler: this backs into what pema was saying about being led astray by the idea that you may "become enlightened"
Wol Euler: (sorry, I'm geting lost in my own thoughts here)
Wol Euler: the idea is that ES lends itself to overthinking, to analysis, to not actually *dropping* the viewer
Wol Euler: so on consideration I'd have to agree with you, Pema.
Wol Euler: it's nearly the half-hour. Shall we try an exercise at the break, then open to the floor?
Pema Pera: the problem is that *any* kind of practice is like a lollipop held out in front of the self/ego . . . and Being doesn't seem as tasty as a lollipop, hard to imagine what to do with it . . . . -- but we can find ways to put the lollipops to good use, I don't want to condemn them in any way

Bolonath Crystal: as an advaitin i think of life as a dream. the dream selves cannot be enlightened, and the dreamer already is. so YS is actually done by being. i can't find the difference between YS, ES and BS, except maybe that in YS the dream self identifies with his/her/its illusion of 'self'. maybe i'm only lacking fantasy...
Pema Pera: exactly Bolo!!
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
Pema Pera: that's what I meant, to Liza, that they don't bite each other
Pema Pera: Being allows all views, while all views can be informed by Being

Gaya Ethaniel nods @ Bolo. Essentially ES is YS for me, I don't do the three separate practices.
Gaya Ethaniel: But initally knowing the three concepts were very helpful.

Eden Haiku: Yes, Bolo ES seems to me just like a more figurative way, Being Seeing would be abstract 'painting' sort of... Obvioulsy, we use our imagination in the 3 practices but the, sometimes, something happens that does go beyond our imagination and we know it then.

Eden Haiku: In the Tibetan Empowerment of Kalachakra there is very obvious ES practice Stim.Also in Shivaism of Kashmir.
Stim Morane: Yes, Eden, but that sort of thing has to be understood in context
Stim Morane: It's not really the same.
Eden Haiku: Would point the difference please?
Stim Morane: Tantric "imagining" is nothing like what someone would typically understand ES to be saying
Liza Deischer: right
SophiaSharon Larnia: can you say more?
Eden Haiku: Typically?
Eden Haiku: How do you see ES Stim?
Stim Morane: Eden, a tradition like the ones you mentioned would critique every aspect of ES.

---

Gaya Ethaniel nods ... tries to remember a quote by Picasso re: jobs ...
Wester Kiranov: I am working on getting a job as subtitler
Calvino Rabeni: translation?
Wester Kiranov: yes, translation.
Wester Kiranov: although there are dutch-to-dutch subtitles as well sometimes
Gaya Ethaniel: I can't remember exact words but he said something about doing 5 if one is able to do 7,
doing 3 if one is able to 5 ... etc.
Gaya Ethaniel: Guess it refers to being less ambitious? What do you think?
Calvino Rabeni: I don't think so, Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel listens.
Calvino Rabeni: Someone asked me for advice on running
Calvino Rabeni: So I repeated what I had been taught
Calvino Rabeni: Assuming - you want to be a long distance runner and do that for a long time
Calvino Rabeni: the advice was- run as if you could do it FOREVER,
Calvino Rabeni: and then just a little less, so that you still have a desire, to want a little MORE
Calvino Rabeni: that is how to grow and sustain in long distance running
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: Does that make sense - it is about managing your aspiration and energy
Calvino Rabeni: It was more complicated than that, but this was the "everyday" effort to make
Calvino Rabeni: The coach was very effective I thought
Nymf Hathaway: Your advise makes sure someone stays eager, Calvino :)
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: you don't want to burn out
Calvino Rabeni: it is "sustainability"

--

Riddle Sideways: as stated that is the example, but in little daily things we switch back-n-forth
Riddle Sideways: little tasks like take butter out of freezer
Riddle Sideways: bigger tasks like new wonderful super computer I just assembled
Riddle Sideways: that can not run SL yet
Gaya Ethaniel ponders ... what an interesting topic ... switching back and forth ...
Riddle Sideways: pushing tasks and interruptions onto out stacks
Riddle Sideways: pushing the context of where we were onto the stack so we can go to the interruptions
Riddle Sideways: people's stacks are a little better then computer stacks in that we can pop tasks by priority
Riddle Sideways: well, maybe
Gaya Ethaniel: In a sense though ... these categorising, reviewing tasks add to the pile?
Riddle Sideways: yes
Gaya Ethaniel: I think I largely let go of such rules ... and also feel less interrupted by 'interruptions'.
Gaya Ethaniel: This way I feel less drained when switching back-n-forth. Of course top priority tasks, I try to be firm about not interrupting :)
Riddle Sideways: very good technique
Gaya Ethaniel giggles ... top priority tasks could be most obsorbing, creating no internal interruptions in an ideal world ... ^^;;;
Riddle Sideways appauds Gaya on something I can not get to very often
Gaya Ethaniel: Don't :) I'm feeling pretty scattered after the break today ... hard to do the initial push with priorities ...
Gaya Ethaniel: I will just do my best ... get done as much as possible ...
Gaya Ethaniel nods.
--

Gaya Ethaniel: Hello everyone :)
Vertigo Ethaniel: gday gaya
Liza Deischer: hi Gaya
Agatha Macbeth: I never saw you as a human being before!

Wol Euler: ooh, a full circle. We all get bonus karma points now.

Mickorod Renard: I am supposed to be a christian
Zon Quar: or how many angels can stand in the needle
Storm Nordwind: DId someone tell you to be, Mick?!
Vertigo Ethaniel: youre supposed to be whatever youre comfortable with
Agatha Macbeth: ;-)
Zen Arado: resurrection is such a big idea to grasp
Mickorod Renard: no, not at all Storm,,maybe I am not
Vertigo Ethaniel: personally, i tend towards a shinto/pagan/agnostic bend
Vertigo Ethaniel is weird
Agatha Macbeth: Well that covers the field :)
Storm Nordwind: Some very disparate things there Vertigo!
Mickorod Renard: he he
Vertigo Ethaniel: yep i am conflicted
Agatha Macbeth: Each-way bet?
Mickorod Renard: I saw something on the television the other day(so must be true) that Jesus attended budhist lessons
Vertigo Ethaniel: he was also a huge stoner
Wol Euler chortles at the thought of finding truths on TV.
Zon Quar: he wandered in india iv heard
Zen Arado: could be or met some 'wise men' from the East
Agatha Macbeth: Or finding anything on TV
Agatha Macbeth: Worth watching
Mickorod Renard: was he a vegitarian?
Zon Quar: so many years without information of his moves
Agatha Macbeth: They were Magi
Zen Arado: yes
Storm Nordwind: Reminds me of the Zen story: http://deoxy.org/koan/16
Wol Euler nods. How true.
Agatha Macbeth: Nice Storm :)
Zon Quar: nods
Vertigo Ethaniel has reached PLATINUM KARMA
Agatha Macbeth: BONG!

Zen Arado: the problem is when you cling to beliefs i think
Zon Quar: thinking..believing in ideas dont make on free
Vertigo Ethaniel: yes zen, especially under evidence to the contrary
Vertigo Ethaniel: that is truely close-minded
Aidan Spiritor: Ideas can be liberating as long as they are loosly held..
Storm Nordwind: Aidan, there are many choices of things to link back to, and many choices of method. No wonder there is diversity!
Calvino Rabeni: When people make divisions, probably from their point of view they think they are making clarifications and simplifications
Aidan Spiritor: Diversity is great but the problem arises with dogma..
Aidan Spiritor: I'm right and you're wrong for eg..
Mickorod Renard: as it has been discovered during Pab sessions in the past,,there is much that we all share..regardless of our beliefs that have names
Zen Arado: the Dalai Lama says you need the diversity of religions because of the difference in cultures
Storm Nordwind: Dogma is separate, Aiden. Some methods have it. Some don't. You gets what you chooses.
Zen Arado: there will never be a universal religion
Vertigo Ethaniel: bahai is getting close, zen
Mickorod Renard: maybe Pab is one?
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Storm Nordwind: Only one Mick? ;)
--

Eos Amaterasu: so we could take YS, ES, BS as an example
Eos Amaterasu: You Seeing, Enlightened Seeing, Being Seeing
Eos Amaterasu: and in the case of a group
Eos Amaterasu: turn the You into a plural
Eos Amaterasu: You-all seein' :-)
Eos Amaterasu: or maybe we seeing
Calvino Rabeni: The we-seeing is a useful perspective
Eos Amaterasu: so the contemplation is that of the group process recapitulating the individual process
Eos Amaterasu: I think you get a stronger sense of that in retreat, at least in the group RL retreats I've experienced
Calvino Rabeni: I'm thinking of facilitation "in the large", not specifically how to facilitate a play-as-being session
Eos Amaterasu: I'm actually thinking about it the other way around
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Eos Amaterasu: How to facilitate _from_ PaB
Eos Amaterasu: both re the facilitator coming from that
Eos Amaterasu: and the group coming from that
Calvino Rabeni: So the internal experiential state of the facilitator is important for "coming from" into the world
Eos Amaterasu: in a way the facilitator holds the state of mind, or its call-by-future, for the group
Eos Amaterasu: but that's a paradoxical holding
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I see that - and demonstrating and communicating it is necessary
Calvino Rabeni: Presencing it
Eos Amaterasu: Although in many situations it's a totally unknown situation for the facilitator
Calvino Rabeni: And you're right, the facilitator may not be able to come from a "control" place
Eos Amaterasu: So maybe that's a saving grace :-)

Pema Pera: there is also the question whether anything like facilitation has to be developed, or whether it would be a natural by-product of something else, in case it might be more effective to just focus on the something else -- awareness, compassion, appreciation . . . . so far we seem to assume that there is something that needs to be "done" in some way, are we sure that is actually correct?

Calvino Rabeni: Resting at ease does not typically seem to shake people out of habits of being "on automatic"
Pema Pera: there's where the 9 sec comes in!
Calvino Rabeni: Unless someone is quite alert to the new energy that emerges
Calvino Rabeni: and sponsors it to come out
Pema Pera: stir, wait, stir again
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, rather taoist
Hotaru Myoo: always stirring
Pema Pera: or trust others to let it come out
Storm Nordwind: And breathe the aroma while waiting!
Hotaru Myoo: but
Calvino Rabeni: Drop Don't Stop
Hotaru Myoo: what is at the bottom of the pot?
Eos Amaterasu: this is not turtle soup
Calvino Rabeni: Can only speculate
Calvino Rabeni: Normally it is bottomless

doug Sosa: the slower the fewer people it feeds, unless we get really smart.
Calvino Rabeni: there is a lot of headroom with efficiency
Calvino Rabeni: lots of waste
Eos Amaterasu: that's questionable though, isn't it, doug?
doug Sosa: which eos?
Eos Amaterasu: from today's framing we say we need more and more speed
Calvino Rabeni: that is the constructed myth
doug Sosa: and?
Eos Amaterasu: slowing down could feed more
doug Sosa: how?
Calvino Rabeni: the economic-growth myth
Eos Amaterasu: grow locally
Eos Amaterasu: takes more time
Eos Amaterasu: is less efficient
Eos Amaterasu: is much richer
Calvino Rabeni: not necessarily less efficient
Eos Amaterasu: generates wealth of goods and of time
doug Sosa: yes, but as we see, in much of the world that looks like a narrowing possibility.
Calvino Rabeni: when oil is expensive the distribution economies will change a lot
Eos Amaterasu: beacaue we've ripped it away from that rest of the world
doug Sosa: Yes, but increasing the price willl fall harder on poorer people.
Eos Amaterasu: food aid calls for faster farming in develeoped countries, and destroys farming in undeveloped
doug Sosa: yes, deeply agree.
Calvino Rabeni: see, most of the thinking on this issue is predicated on the idea that we must maintain our present system
and rate at all costs; that is non-negotiable in the usual dialogue
Eos Amaterasu: two things I see: 1) basic mythologies of majority of people need to grow, deepen
doug Sosa: which we know is not working. lsow suicide getting faster. but how to slow, how to help the weaker. how to prevent lots of violence?
Eos Amaterasu: 2) that's not enough: there is much power concentrated in a very few people
Eos Amaterasu: those have to be moved, or allowed to self-destruct
Calvino Rabeni: How, doug?
Calvino Rabeni: What are the proposals?
doug Sosa: yes, but letting up on the structure would probably rupture it. this is a delicate operation.
Calvino Rabeni: What is the evidence for that idea?
Eos Amaterasu: for example, the pseudo financial system needs to be allowed to self-destruct
Calvino Rabeni: It sounds like the "ego of the economy"
Eos Amaterasu: without taking dow the "real" wealth generation systems with it
doug Sosa: there really are not many proposals. local are the most obvious. tech fixes only aim to maintain the speed.
Eos Amaterasu: speed limits
Calvino Rabeni: How many versions of localism are there?
doug Sosa: i think we can look at revolutions, civil wars, when old strucutres fallaway, the increased entropy leads to violence.

Eos Amaterasu: localism is also in time, as well as in space

doug Sosa: Still supposition, though worthy.

Eos Amaterasu: PaB helps with resting with increased entropy :-)
--

    Calvino Rabeni: Nothing can be proved
    Calvino Rabeni: Only me, little me without any help?
    Zen Arado: always has to be a starting assumption
    Zon Quar: not little me
    Calvino Rabeni: That is a lot of responsibiility Zon, I don't think I want it
    Zon Quar: something in that little me
    Zon Quar: isness itself
    Zon Quar: which we r part of
    Zen Arado: no me - just a particular of a giant ...something
    Calvino Rabeni: If every human was responsible for the existence of their world, it would be pretty burdensome -
    human race would basically crack up
    Zon Quar: says..this feels true
    Zen Arado: like waves in an ocean
    Calvino Rabeni: If "me" is in doubt, then how can "my" notion of "isness" not also be in doubt?
    Zon Quar: cause we think we r separate waves really and independent of the ocean
    Zen Arado: just one particular manifestation
    Zen Arado: unique and different but still part of a whole
    Zon Quar: but the sea is there
    Calvino Rabeni: Take away the water, no sea is there
    Zon Quar: waves r transitory
    Zon Quar: sea and waves exist
    Calvino Rabeni: the sea is an emergent property of the water
    Zon Quar: its just the way u look at it
    Zen Arado: just a label we give the body of water
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Zon Quar: or the waves look ta eachothers and the sea
    Zon Quar: but without the sea existing, this discussion of the waves would not take place
--

Eliza Madrigal: I was intrigued by what you wrote... your perspective on the exercize
Bolonath Crystal: ah... yes?
Eliza Madrigal: Well, it is difficult to form a question...
Eliza Madrigal: what I want to ask is along the lines of whether you just 'stay' in non-locality thinking...
Bolonath Crystal: non-locality thinking? i never thought about it this way... but i think that fits somehow
Eliza Madrigal: I suppose the way I heard you was in a kind of relative/absolute outline...
--BELL--
Bolonath Crystal: imo all we perceive as 'outside' is a projection - as well as all we perceive as 'inside'.
in fact there shouldn't be much difference
Bolonath Crystal: some things we are projecting 'outside', others 'inside'
Bolonath Crystal: but 'being' is neither outside nor inside - or maybe both as the same time
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, so it isn't that you are viewing 'from the absolute' and dismissing the relative as projection....
Bolonath Crystal: the relative is the way, in which the absolute sees
Eliza Madrigal: 'unity'
Bolonath Crystal: yes
Bolonath Crystal: in an absolute way there is nothing to see

Zen Arado: hungry ghost for books too
Eliza Madrigal: : )
Zen Arado: buy more than I can read
Eliza Madrigal: Well... think of what you've already read in life...
Zen Arado: and forgotten....
Eliza Madrigal: if you 'learned' nothing else from this moment....
Bolonath Crystal: hehe
Eliza Madrigal: read nothing else... prob what you'd read and have to work with is 'enough'
Zen Arado: exactly
Eliza Madrigal: I tell myself this... there is nothing 'needed' really....
Zen Arado: more than enough

Bolonath Crystal: i started meditating when i was 15, mainly because i liked david carradine in his kung fu films :)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: hah so grasshopper :)
Eliza Madrigal: Why not :)
--

Zen Arado: I wonder if I was perfectly happy and contented would I bother doing anything?
Zen Arado: but just sit and be happy
Fefonz Quan: yes you would
Calvino Rabeni: dont worry zen
Wol Euler: I think you would not be perfectly happy and contented if all you did was sat :)
Fefonz Quan: sit and be happy, eat and be happy, go to work and be happy
Wol Euler: but perhaps that's just my take on it.
Calvino Rabeni: :)

Wol Euler: I was thinking during hte pause about times that I have known that I was happy. There were very few,
actually, when I felt happiness arising.
Wol Euler: It's mostly something that I recognize afterwards, "Ah, that was nice"
Fefonz Quan: I recognize it during sometimes, than i try not to think about it too much, cause than it pushes it away...
Mickorod Renard: I remember times i am happy,,and am frequently happy,,I am very lucky,,maybe I am greedy wanting to be very happy all of the time
Wol Euler: right!
Zen Arado: we look for it in the future
Eliza Madrigal: yes like self-consciousness
Zen Arado: and miss it when ity is here
Storm Nordwind: Realizing I am happy does not make me any less happy.
Fefonz Quan: staying with it without pushing it aside is much harder than one might expect
arabella Ella: i think one important concept is Carpe Diem ... seize the day
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes you can compliment a reserved child on something they are doing...
and then they look at themselves and stop
Storm Nordwind: I guess it comes with practice then :)
Fefonz Quan nods to Storm