The Guardian for this meeting was Zen. The comments are by Agatha.

Bleu Oleander's current display-name is "Bleu".
Zen Arado's current display-name is "Zen".
Almadi Masala's current display-name is "Alma di Masala".

Zen (Zen Arado): Hi Aggers
Agatha Macbeth: Evening all
Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): hi Aga
Tura Brezoianu: hi Agatha
Zen (Zen Arado): shall we start at 11.05?
Bleu (Bleu Oleander): hi Aggers
Bleu (Bleu Oleander): sure
Agatha Macbeth: If you like
Zen (Zen Arado): pabbers always come late :)
Zen (Zen Arado): did you all read the book?
Agatha Macbeth: The late late show
Tura Brezoianu: yes
Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala) nods
Zen (Zen Arado): It wasn't all that long I guess
Bleu (Bleu Oleander): yes
Zen (Zen Arado): I read it in small bits over a long period so that made me think it was longer
Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): short but sweet
Zen Arado: so we should be able to get through it in one meeting easily enough
Zen Arado: the trouble is that the longer version is a bit too long
Agatha Macbeth: No middle ground eh
Zen Arado: but I will read it anyway because I find it very interesting and quite at the heart of things
Tura Brezoianu: This version is ideal
Tura Brezoianu: It tells me I don't want to read the long one :)
Almadi Masala: I am eager to read it on my own too
Zen Arado: McGilchrist has done a few videos on YouTube
Bleu Oleander: yes I listened to one
Almadi Masala: I believe the long book goes into a lot of detail about both the brain and the cultural history of the western world
Zen Arado: yes – he started off in literature so it's quite interested in cultural influences I think
Zen Arado: so How did you find the book generally?
Almadi Masala: I loved it
Zen Arado: I find it very interesting as well
Zen Arado: trouble is I can't find much to criticise because I agree with it so much
Almadi Masala: it sums up a lot of what I feel about the state of the world and our (mis)understandings of nature and humanity
Zen Arado: I like to hear some criticisms
Bleu Oleander: I found it too simplistic and not really up to date scientifically, but I have read many books recently and met with contemporary researchers in this are
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: well I suppose it has to be a bit simplistic to get down to that length?
Tura Brezoianu: I pretty much tuned out all the neuroscience.
Bleu Oleander: a couple of good books are "the deep history of ourselves" by Joseph LeDoux
Zen Arado: And I think he has updated the main book
Tura Brezoianu: McG himself says eventually that it doesn't really matter.
Bleu Oleander: and "Who's in Charge?" by Michael Gazzniga
Zen Arado: what doesn't matter Tura?
Zen Arado: I must check those books
Zen Arado: I think he criticises Gazzniga
Zen Arado: can't remember what for
Bleu Oleander: LeDoux's book in very new
Tura Brezoianu: The neuroscience
Zen Arado: ok
Bleu Oleander: http://podcasts.joerogan.net/podcasts/jospeh-ledoux ... interesting podcast
Tura Brezoianu: It's a hook to hang his story on, a pattern to make sense of things with, even if it doesn't exist.
Zen Arado: ok thanks
Bleu Oleander: I think that's right Tura
Zen Arado: he isn't actually a neuroscientist
Bleu Oleander: so maybe not as qualified to speak as some others might be?
Zen Arado: none of it can be proved anyway, can it?
Zen Arado: I don't know everyone is so specialised these days
Zen Arado: who can know all of the disciplines that are involved?
Bleu Oleander: well, there are many experiments being carried out in labs all over the world
Bleu Oleander: so inching towards a better understanding
Zen Arado: could this theory be proved by a neuroscientist?
Bleu Oleander: its sorta already been disproved I think
Zen Arado: I like David Eegleman stuff
--BELL--11.15
Almadi Masala: supported maybe, but I think "prove" is too strong a word
Zen Arado: is there a better theory you know of?
Bleu Oleander: more an idea of many systems, some within a hemisphere and some distributed across hemispheres
Bleu Oleander: "consciousness and the brain" by Dehaene is another recent good book
Tura Brezoianu: There are various grand theories, but none with much support.
Almadi Masala: does it really matter where they are located in the brain?
Zen Arado: My take on neuroscientists is that they know certain areas in the brain light up when we think certain things but does that tell us very much?
Tura Brezoianu: All we have is empirical observations of which bits of the brain light up during what sort of task, and what are the consequences of various injuries to the brain.
Bleu Oleander: on one level no, but if you're trying to figure out how the brain works, yes
Almadi Masala: if the systems behave they way he describes, then what does it matter if they are lateralized or not
Zen Arado: Thissnap
Agatha Macbeth: Bless you
Almadi Masala: I mean, in terms of his account of things
Zen Arado: if it seems to make sense is that enough?
Tura Brezoianu: He even makes something like that point at the outset, what does it matter that the ventral whatsit is active during the experience of love?
Zen Arado: If it is the best model we have?
Agatha Macbeth wonders what a ventral whatsit does
Tura Brezoianu: yet the division into hemispheres is his central theme.
Tura Brezoianu: It needs to be true as well. Even nonsense can make sense :)
Zen Arado: I liked his explanation of why the brain divided
Zen Arado: he doesn't give any evidence for any of his claims except that they seem to make sense though, does he?
Zen Arado: I don't think any of these authors do because there really isn't much evidence is there?
Zen Arado: Bleu?
Bleu Oleander: there is evidence
Bleu Oleander: many are doing and collecting evidence
Tura Brezoianu: They all make up stories, like doing a join-the-dots picture, but there are so few dots of knowldege that you can draw almost any shape you like.
Bleu Oleander: no "big" picture or explanations yet
Bleu Oleander: I think we know a bit more than that
Zen Arado: do you agree with all of his claims? tha ''It seems that we developed two distinct brain halves so that we could pay attention in different ways when we were hunters. One area focused on the task at hand and the other was wary and watchful against predators. '
Bleu Oleander: important to read many of th top people working on this as well as other sources
Bleu Oleander: I don't see it that way Zen
Tura Brezoianu: We need to do both of these things, but mapping that to left/right is speculation. There are lots of things we need to do.
Zen Arado: why not?
Bleu Oleander: enormous number of wired circuits, all running in parallel and distributed across the brain so we can make better decisions
Zen Arado: It seemed quite plausible to me
Bleu Oleander: sure
Zen Arado: I liked the bird example
Bleu Oleander: but too simplistic to me
Zen Arado: it's far simpler yes but that makes it more understandable
Zen Arado: and apparently all mammals have divided brains
Bleu Oleander: yes but just because something is simple doesn't make it true
Almadi Masala: but doesn't it seem that there are some general differences in how the left and right sides process information when the opposite side has been disabled?
Bleu Oleander: there are some difference yes
Zen Arado: yes they do have evidence from that for sure
Tura Brezoianu: All vertebrates, I think.
Zen Arado: is there a better explanation?
Bleu Oleander: started when life became bi-lateral bodies
Zen Arado: I am quite open to hear but this is the best I have heard
Bleu Oleander: invertibrates and vertibrats
Zen Arado: how do you account for right and left handedness?
Zen Arado: You would think ambidextrous would be better?
Agatha Macbeth: There's a degree of genetic inheritance involved I think
Tura Brezoianu: I remember an anecdote about one of these split-brain experiments, where they were getting a split-brain patient to do various tasks to highlight the separateness of the halves. At one point, the patient turned to the experimenter and said, "You're trying to split me into two people, aren't you?"
Bleu Oleander: seems a random thing, some right handed, some left handed? some genetic and some experience
Bleu Oleander: :)
--BELL--1.30
Zen Arado: Yes but we still evolved this way so I wonder what is the value
Almadi Masala: when I was young, I tried to learn to write with my left hand (I'm right handed). It was almost impossible
Zen Arado: maybe it's better that one half of the brain can concentrate on one hand and leave the other for wider awareness?
Zen Arado: Which goes along with his theory
Tura Brezoianu: I tried that too, the other way round. Just as impossible
Bleu Oleander: awareness is a whole brain thing
Zen Arado: yes I think he agrees with that
Zen Arado: it's like both hemispheres work together
Zen Arado: but specialise for some tasks and inhibit the other sphere to do that?
Tura Brezoianu: Yes, we experience ourselves as one, not two or ten. Even the split-brain patients do.
Almadi Masala: but awareness can at times be fragmented, trying to go in two different directions at once
Bleu Oleander: yes
Tura Brezoianu: Yes, we're complex things with parts, rather than a bag of disconnected pieces.
Zen Arado: there are experiments where the right brain becomes disabled and the left brain refuses to recognise anything on the left side
Zen Arado: really amazing how the left brain can make things up and be confident it is right
Zen Arado: they seem to learn a lot from stroke victims
Almadi Masala: and there are cases of multiple personality too
Zen Arado: that is some kind of evidence I suppose
Zen Arado: I find his claim that the modern era seems to be '
Zen Arado: ‘in thrall to the left hemisphere's way of thinking,?’
Bleu Oleander: that's kinda more his own philosophy
Zen Arado: I find that interesting
Zen Arado: yes of course
Zen Arado: it's something he very much preaches
Bleu Oleander: we think with our whole brain
Zen Arado: why do we have a divided brain then?
Almadi Masala: there are different kinds of thinking. logical reasoning is different from metaphorical thinking
Bleu Oleander: we have divided bodies too
Bleu Oleander: we are bi-lateral
Zen Arado: And why are the two halves physically different
Bleu Oleander: it helps us survive
Zen Arado: but why does that help us to survive?
Bleu Oleander: maybe presents us with more options?
Almadi Masala: the heart evolved to be bilateral too, but the two sides have somewhat different functions
Zen Arado: yes there has to be a reason
Tura Brezoianu: It might be just an evolutionary accident, like having paths for taking in air and food that intersect. We would have a lot fewer deaths from choking if a different fish had emerged from the water.
Almadi Masala: we are generally bilateral, but there are some asymmetries, especially of the internal organs
Bleu Oleander: evolution was driven by survival
Zen Arado: but usually evolutionary accidents would be passed on unless they were of benefit
Tura Brezoianu: Some things, there can be a better thing, but no path to it.
Bleu Oleander: well, our brains have gotten us to here ... not that here is the ultimate by any means!
Zen Arado: and maybe society is becoming too much governed by left brain thinking
Almadi Masala: is it ever really possible for the brain to understand itself?
Zen Arado: but we can't really go into that if you don't believe that happens?
Bleu Oleander: that's were he goes off the rails for me
Tura Brezoianu: We can talk about the two styles of thinking without the neurostuff.
Zen Arado: No but we're just trying to find ways that make sense
Zen Arado: can you elaborate Bleu?
Bleu Oleander: I meant that we don't think with left of right brains we think with whole brains
--BELL--1.45
Zen Arado: so the same brain just thinks in different ways at different times for different purposes?
Bleu Oleander: there are many cultural and technological influences on societies that may contribute to how some people think
Bleu Oleander: I think so Zen
Bleu Oleander: I must get going
Zen Arado: but they aren't influenced by biology of the brain at all?
Bleu Oleander: thanks for a thoughtful conversation
Zen Arado: ok bye Bleu
Almadi Masala: bye, Bleu, take care
Bleu Oleander: biology and experiecne
Tura Brezoianu: bye Bleu
Bleu Oleander: bfn and take care
Agatha Macbeth: Love to the dog
Tura Brezoianu: There's an interesting book about what the author calls "legibility": the need, mainly by governments, to have clear categories and rules, and how destructive this can be. That seems to be somewhat aligned with McG's thesis, but better presented than his rather ideological writing. It's called "Seeing Like a State" by James Scott.
Almadi Masala: having worked in a government agency, I can agree with that. everything has to be justified and rationalized by set criteria
Zen Arado: I find society become more and more bureaucratised especially with the advent of computers and algorithms
Zen Arado: but I guess I need to read all of these other books as well
Zen Arado: I find it fitted in with my spiritual beliefs as well
Zen Arado: a lot of spirituality seems to be about seeing three left brain representational, conceptual thinking
Almadi Masala: yes
Zen Arado: through, I meant
Almadi Masala: we make conceptual models of the world (and ourselves), and then live in the models instead of in the world.
Zen Arado: exactly
Zen Arado: he talks of that in the main book
Zen Arado: WHAT WOULD THE LEFT HEMISPHERE’S WORLD LOOK LIKE? 'Ever more narrowly focussed attention would lead to an increasing specialisation and technicalising of knowledge. This in turn would promote the substitution of information, and information gathering, for knowledge, which comes through experience. Knowledge, in its turn, would seem more ‘real’ than what one might call wisdom, which would seem too nebulous, something never to be grasped'
Zen Arado: 'The world as a whole would become more virtualised, and our experience of it would be increasingly through meta-representations of one kind or another; fewer people would find themselves doing work involving contact with anything in the real, ‘lived’ world, rather than with plans, strategies, paperwork, management and bureaucratic procedures.'
Zen Arado: done
Zen Arado: that resonates with me anyway
Almadi Masala: me too
Agatha Macbeth strikes a tuning fork next to Zen
Tura Brezoianu: Well, don't do that then. :)
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: I don't think we can stop it
Tura Brezoianu: (That was re the quote, not the tuning fork)
Agatha Macbeth: Fork me
Zen Arado: and computers and AI will be able to do better than us
Zen Arado: do it
Zen Arado: but maybe we can disagree about how it comes about, how it has originated
Zen Arado: if not from the left brain becoming more dominant
Tura Brezoianu: Computerised systems are notorious for acting like in that McG quote, so that could make things even worse.
Zen Arado: yes,Yuval Harari's book sensitised me to it all
Agatha Macbeth: We looked at that didn't we?
Zen Arado: yes
Agatha Macbeth: Thought it rang a bell
--BELL--Noon
Zen Arado: I didn't get to the meetings
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Almadi Masala: I missed that one
Zen Arado: so maybe it doesn't matter whether Mc G ideas are right
Zen Arado: we still need to be wary of what's happening
Agatha Macbeth: McG makes me think of Melbourne cricket ground
Zen Arado: yep
Tura Brezoianu: Wariness is a right-brain function according to McG
Zen Arado: yep :)
Almadi Masala: in what way the cricket ground?
Agatha Macbeth: They call it the MCG for short
Almadi Masala: oh!
Agatha Macbeth: :P
Tura Brezoianu: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Strewth mate
Agatha Macbeth: You lived in Sydney for while didn't you Zenny?
Zen Arado: McG's ideas just seem to explain things to me
Zen Arado: yep but not Melbourne
Agatha Macbeth: You might know the SCG then
Zen Arado: I never went there
Agatha Macbeth: Not a fan of aussie rules?
Zen Arado: nope
Agatha Macbeth: It's basically a riot with a ball thrown in
Zen Arado: though they say it came from an Irish game called Hurley I think
Agatha Macbeth: Gaelic football probably, hurling is a stick game like hockey
Zen Arado: any other comments?
Zen Arado: Ah okay
Tura Brezoianu: I think we're done.
Zen Arado: ok
Almadi Masala: thank you for suggesting this one, Zen.
Almadi Masala: I really liked it
Agatha Macbeth: Is this a one off then?
Zen Arado: thank you, Alma
Zen Arado: yes not much more to say unless people have read some of the other books and we could compare
Zen Arado: I'm not planning to do a thesis on it though :-)
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe just as well :p
Zen Arado: well I would have to study all the other books 1st
Agatha Macbeth: Yeh
Zen Arado: I didn't come here to do that I just came here to discuss this particular book
Agatha Macbeth: This reading isn't something one can do by halves
Almadi Masala: I need to get going
Agatha Macbeth: TC Al
Zen Arado: me too
Zen Arado: bye all
Agatha Macbeth: Yep
Tura Brezoianu: bye
Almadi Masala: bye everyone, thanks for the interesting discussion
Agatha Macbeth: Tatty bye