13-15 - Just Dance

(Eliza Scribe in Progress)

Yakuzza Lethecus: so sometimes i have the feeling that ppl around here are more philosophical in some sense then in the philo places where ppl throughing around fancy names

Scathach Rhiadra: it is interesting that some traditions recognise different types of wisdom, like 'prajna' and 'jnana'. Prajna is wisdom from understanding and jnana is directly experienced (i think!)
Bertrum Quan: Scath, can you talk about that a bit more?
--BELL--
Scathach Rhiadra: well, prajna would be gained by reading and considering sutras and commentaries, hence the Prajnaparamita Sutra = perfection of wisdom.....
Scathach Rhiadra: jnana would come from meditation and contemplation, awareness and insight
Bertrum Quan: An integration of both... to create the whole.
Scathach Rhiadra: yes:)

Scathach Rhiadra: though if jnana is a more natural wisdom or the wisdom of our true nature, it would include all wisdom that we might gain from other sources like study

Adams Rubble: I am learning to see the clouds now for what they are
Adams Rubble: They caught me by surprise
Bertram Jacobus: what kind of visions are they ?
Adams Rubble: when what we think is there, really isn't
Adams Rubble: not visions, but allowing my mind to create its own reality
Bertram Jacobus: ah. hm ...
Adams Rubble: It is a new experience to have the mind create new things which need to be dropped in order to see
Adams Rubble: new experience for me that is
Adams Rubble: before I was dropping long held things
Bertram Jacobus: understandable ...
Bertram Jacobus: i´m not sure of anything actually. and that is okay for me ;-)
Adams Rubble: :)

Adams Rubble pictures Calvino sitting in the office looking out at the wind blowing the trees
Calvino Rabeni: Revisiting the memories, with a fine attention quality
Calvino Rabeni: to see what develops there
Adams Rubble: we are getting very close to coming back to my clouds :)
Adams Rubble: too much imporovisation there
Calvino Rabeni: Things develop "out of" the image
Adams Rubble: yes
Calvino Rabeni: Latent qualities I could not "see" the first time

Adams Rubble: I am used to thinking in terms of spiritual seeing
Adams Rubble: seeing that we are going to die
Calvino Rabeni: Like, if that is a habit, a convention, or even a way physical organs work, then the "other" side of seeing is outside that
Adams Rubble: that our life is impermanent
Adams Rubble: one might subsitute the word "knowing" for my seeing maybe
Calvino Rabeni: The other side of thingness - applied to the idea of life - is not that we are here now and will die, but are continuously being born
Adams Rubble: :)
Calvino Rabeni: The experience of "seeing" may include the constant arising as well as the constant passing away
Adams Rubble nods
Adams Rubble: we need to shed things
Adams Rubble: the concept of rebirth is a recognition of the clouds that form and must be shed

~~

Zen Arado: if you have a lot of layers of paint it is intesting to uncover them again
Eliza Madrigal: hmmm... and when you said that I remembered a work I viewed once which had chicken wire embedded in it...
Eden Haiku: Layers is an interesting topic.
Zen Arado: let the underlying layer come through in unexpected ways
Eliza Madrigal: Yes Eden, very much so. What does it conjur for you?
Eden Haiku: Like let being shine?
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: excavation
Eden Haiku: Shine through our identities or identifications?
Zen Arado: we let out real nature shine through
Eden Haiku: Archeology of our souls.

Eden Haiku: We invent causalities that aren't.
Eliza Madrigal: yes!
Zen Arado: yes
Eliza Madrigal: and then build them little temples
Eden Haiku: Little temples of our littleness.
Agatha Macbeth: Or liitle dungeons...
Zen Arado: :)
Eliza Madrigal: heheh Oh, definitely
Eden Haiku: And dragons too...
Zen Arado: getting poetic :)
Eden Haiku: Are we?
Agatha Macbeth smiles @ Eden
Zen Arado: think so :)

Eden Haiku: Like the impression sometimes that we could peel the sky and behind there would be something else, the wheels of time or whatever
Eliza Madrigal: Mmmm
Eden Haiku: Behind our pixel world even in RL
Eden Haiku: same same
Eliza Madrigal: or *just* awareness.. yet not mine or yours
Zen Arado: sandpaper ourselves back
Eliza Madrigal: !! :))
Agatha Macbeth: Ouch that hurts! :(
Eliza Madrigal: friction
Eliza Madrigal: hahahahahah Agatha
Zen Arado: wet and dry works great :)
Eden Haiku: Sandpaper ourselves back that is beautiful!
Eliza Madrigal: the sand working on the pearl
Eden Haiku: And that hurts yes Agatha!
arabella Ella: to remove tough and rough edges
Zen Arado: stories are comforting then ?
Eliza Madrigal: oo yes... show us where we're edgy
Agatha Macbeth likes to think she's smooth enough already
Eliza Madrigal: and what we're trying to cover for

Eden Haiku: What was in your mind when you were kids?
arabella Ella: lots of lovely imagination and adventure
Zen Arado: long time ago in my case :(
Agatha Macbeth: Can't remember, too long ago ;-)
Agatha Macbeth: Snap
arabella Ella: idealism too
Zen Arado: :)
Eliza Madrigal: horses, ballerinas...
arabella Ella: i remember lots even tho it was ages ago too
Eliza Madrigal: throwing things down a hole that I called 'the bottomless pit'
Agatha Macbeth: Odd combo that Liz :)
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Eliza Madrigal was an odd child
Eden Haiku: I had this dream of having a magic pencil that would color just as I would picture in my mind...Brushes app is this dream come true!
arabella Ella: i had lots of ballet images too
Agatha Macbeth: Naaaw!!
Zen Arado: the horseback ballerina :)
Eliza Madrigal: wow Eden... you were writing worlds already
Eliza Madrigal laughs at Zen
Eden Haiku: @Eliza a bottomless pit, how interesting!
Zen Arado: you were predicting the future Eden
Eliza Madrigal was often told not to come inside until after dark... had to entertain myself for hours outside... beautiful gardens my great-grandmother had cultivated
arabella Ella: we had found lots of secret passages as kids too ... used to explore lots
Zon Quar: hello buddhas

arabella Ella: we also built huts which formed kids villages
Eden Haiku: Lucky you, you had real secret passages in Malta. I kept looking for castles and secret passages but there are none here!
Zen Arado: we used to hang around streams
arabella Ella: oh yes and ghosts in castles too
Eliza Madrigal: Ooooo wonderful!!
arabella Ella: the blue lady for example
Zen Arado: catch little fish
Eden Haiku: The blue lady? Hi Zon!
Eden Haiku: We are talking about what was on our mind when we were kids,
arabella Ella: i remember camping in the castle grounds as a girl guide and waking up to walk to the castle to see whether we would see the ghost of the blue lady
arabella Ella: must have been around 12 or 13
Eliza Madrigal: Sounds like that might make a nice little book, Ara
arabella Ella: yes
Eden Haiku: Wow, I like that story Ara!
Eliza Madrigal can picture the blue lady
Zen Arado: I have a friend is interested in ghosts
Eden Haiku: Oh,,,
arabella Ella: lots of ghosts and spirits on this little rock

~~

Pema Pera: "the big bang was not an explosion in space, but an explosion of space"
Pema Pera: but those metaphorical ideas only capture part of the physics
Pila Mulligan: space expands but space-time does not ...
Pema Pera: space could be said to expand, in the course of time, with time passing
Pila Mulligan: ok
Pema Pera: given that "time passing" is our normal reference way of looking at things
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pema Pera: it's all compromise :)

Pema Pera: dark energy is not related to photons
Pila Mulligan: thanks
Pema Pera: and we simply don't know what it is made out of
Pila Mulligan: is there a 'no compromise' version?
Pema Pera: and ultimately everything is "made out of" some kind of building blocks at the tiniest of scales, at the Planck length, we expect -- but we don't have an agreed-upon complete theory for that scale yet
Pila Mulligan: this is like quarks?
Pema Pera: so we only have approximate theories (like general relativity and quantum field theories), and the uncompromised form of those theories are the mathematical equations -- not the words used to try to make a bit of flamoyant sense of it
Archmage Atlantis: All things are infinitely expandable, and infinitely divideable
Pila Mulligan: ahh

Pema Pera: so the words are twice removed from (physical) reality: approximations to what are already approximate theories

Pema Pera: so words are approximate ways to characterize approximating attempts at extrapolations of observations :-)

Pema Pera: time and space are in first approximation the stage on which everything else takes place
Pema Pera: but in general relativity,

the stage itself takes part in the dynamic dance

Pema Pera: physics is the story of our realm -- and then there is the question of how any realm arises
Pema Pera: or does it?
Pema Pera: does anything ever arise?
Pema Pera: or are there only appearances?
Pema Pera: or just the presence of appearance
Pema Pera: in a non-appearaing non-arising timeless way?
Pema Pera: that's more the metaphysics I am interested in :-)
Pila Mulligan: our cultural spectrum of perception (thinks Aldus Huxley) also limits our sceince
Paradise Tennant: hmm the movie projector version of reality reminds me of some of the buddhist explanations of samsara
Pema Pera: yes
Pila Mulligan: we have ouor attention directed by our social environment
Pila Mulligan: or even PLato's Cave explanaiton
Pema Pera: the practical challenge is to dare to turn our gaze around, so to speak -- there is a kind of decisiveness that is needed, yes, like getting out of the cave

~~

Bertram Jacobus: you know what ? i took a break from all that bad news which prass and media put all day on us (!) ...
Moon Fargis: same here :)
Bertram Jacobus: press*
Moon Fargis: ^^
Moon Fargis: ok hmm then lets see some hapy news
Bertram Jacobus: can´t see a good sense in it anymore -
Stargate Tone: has not TV and not listened radio, but cannot avoid headlines when goes to the foodmarkets, as there in Finland there's almost all to buy from them big stores
Qt Core: you have real radios with news and all in shops stargate ?
Qt Core: or just the newspapers headlines ?
Stargate Tone: ah not readios, but them newpapers and such are at the first to see when enter
Stargate Tone: then radios there plays only advertizings and music
Stargate Tone: even such 'tiny shops' we call to be as 'kioski'; such that I know to be in Italy also 'all over', but to by either magazines or tobacco or so
Stargate Tone: as we have huge stores which sell 'from the pin up to the locomotion' as we use to say
Bertram Jacobus: atm i find it even a bit absurd that all taht heavy stuff is put on all every day - i think, it should be different :

"try to make the world a better place" ...

~~

Eliza Madrigal: something i've been actively noticing lately has to do with this idea of attention & time... but more hm... awareness and time... not as something one can lead, but can kind of allow more and more
Eliza Madrigal: so like, not 'my' awareness... just awareness

Fael Illyar: DST went unsynchronized a couple of years ago when US moved the time.
SophiaSharon Larnia: ah
Eliza Madrigal: yes, another george bush move I think...
Liza Deischer: ah, old georgie.....:-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: if linden would be in arizona they wouldn´t even have DST
Archmage Atlantis: Which george
SophiaSharon Larnia: oh i remember now, it was a power thing, but related to electric power, the idea being saving electricity
Eliza Madrigal: hehe... must have some kind of background strategificantionary...
Yakuzza Lethecus: that is the strangest thing in the states for me, that it´s not nationwide
Archmage Atlantis: I remember 3
SophiaSharon Larnia: lol Eliza at the word! wont spell it
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Fael Illyar: I'd think it's the one who was in power a couple of years back.
Eliza Madrigal: W : 'the decider'
Liza Deischer: is that his nickname in the US?
Archmage Atlantis: The US is not a nation, it is an association of states...thus USA
SophiaSharon Larnia: it is nationwide Yakuzza, not global
Eliza Madrigal: a name he gave himself, Liza!

~~

Maxine Walden: this is one reason I try to avoid any multi-tasking during these sessions....to be really here as much as I can be
Pema Pera: yes, me too
Pema Pera: the silences between sentences appearaing are so many mini meditations
Maxine Walden: so much conveyed in the silences...
Eos Amaterasu: that silence crosses the SL/RL boundary
Pema Pera: the play of words and silence, like tide lands . . .
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Mmm
Maxine Walden: silence also offers space for evocations
Pema Pera: a PaB session can feel like a kind of shared meditation: in the middle of periods of relative silence, words and ideas pop up, sometimes your own, sometimes of others :)
Pema Pera: like waves appearing and subsiding

Pema Pera: (I wonder whether chat logs could be made to convey the silences; time markers are a rather stiff way to do so: lines could perhaps be separated by a fraction of an inch for the fraction of a minute that there was silence . . . )
Pema Pera: ((re: Maxine's response to Eliza))
Maxine Walden: interesting thought, Pema
Eliza Madrigal: yes you know I did that with Eden's sharing yesterday... impossible to convey without the space...

Pema Pera: draping ourselves in space . . . in order to convey time
Maxine Walden: interesting image: 'draping ourselves in space'
Maxine Walden: but thinking of it, maybe aspects of space are the best visual image of time we have at hand...

Maxine Walden: was in a discussion the other day and the tension between holding on to the 'known' vs being open to the new was palpable

Pema Pera: can you say more about that discussion, Maxine?
Maxine Walden: hmm, the issue, which I actually brought up, was about clinging to our theories rather than going with direct experience
Maxine Walden: And while several seemed to nod in agreement about staying open to the new, there was a significant effort to measure everything 'new' according to one's tried and 'true' knowings
Pema Pera: :)
Maxine Walden: and I was left feeling the fierceness with which aspects of us all can hold on to 'what I know to be true'
Pema Pera: cutting the new down to size -- we all have that fundamentalist streak, I'm afraid
Maxine Walden: often loudly crowding out the quiet space for the new evocations perhaps
Eliza Madrigal: mmmm, yes wow
Maxine Walden: Interesting, that after the discussion, I felt both very lonely in terms of rather singly holding this space for the new, or so it seemed at the time, but I also felt grateful for the opportunity to do so
Maxine Walden: Mixed feelings as we try to share some of these perspectives with friends and colleagues
Maxine Walden: I was also holding quietly in mind during that discussion (perhaps defensively) the notion of the paradigm shift : and how fiercely it is resisted, until all of a sudden the shift occurs

***

Pema Pera: As a personal footnote to the sense of loneliness that Maxine talked about: For the longest time I've felt lonely in scientific circles, for not being able to share my spiritual interests with friends who were otherwise very playfully exploring; and similarly lonely in spiritual circles, for equally not being able to share my scientific interests in working with working hypotheses and such --

for full disclosure, you can say that starting PaB was my way of acquiring true friends, interested in both ways of appreciating the world (without necessarily having a spiritual and scientific background: more the openness to both ways of exploring).

***

Fael Illyar smiles 'I'd say you succeeded very well with that.'
Widget Whiteberry considers that Pema may have just held up a lantern
Agatha Macbeth: Yep. Seems to work :)
Pema Pera: it took only 38 years to "find the formula" . . . :)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Bleu Oleander: a wonderful space of knowing and sharing you have created
Zen Arado: had to wait for the world to catch up...
Zen Arado: even if it is a SL world
Widget Whiteberry: or cast a wide enough net
Maxine Walden: yes, a very creative outcome

~~

[recalling in the guardian meeting this morning there was discussion as to how to represent silence in the chatlogs: with space which I am trying to do here, but also with brackets to offer some of the musings during the spaces my posted musings]

Maxine Walden: (am growing fond of the three dragonflies, as I now call them; sort of wafting presences over the pool; I feel wafting with them, quite lyrical)

[admittedly during this time, I turn to draft in my mind a few remarks about open-hearted learning which I will offer some new students this next week, and it feels easy to do amidst the open-hearted atmosphere of this musing time between and the dragonflies]

~~

Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm still a little unclear on what we are doing here as Kira / Play as Being participants. What "should" I be doing when I'm here?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I've read the website and all, but it doens't stick in my mind ... somehow.
Calvino Rabeni: There are certain intentionally unformed ideas we can talk about
Calvino Rabeni: Remember Peter Ralston?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: oh yeah?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Peter Ralston. Yes indeed!
Calvino Rabeni: Of course he got asked - can you just tell me - define it
Mitzi Mimistrobell: He got asked ... what?
Calvino Rabeni: Like, what the **** are you talking about :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Oh now I get it. Yes, people wanted a simple mind-bite. But,
Mitzi Mimistrobell: he was trying to elicit a more experiential state for his students.
Calvino Rabeni: e.g. a new improved definition about how to know reality, what to do, etc.
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: Just wrapping it up in a conceptual package and putting a bow on it wasn't going to substantively add anything for his students, no matter how good the formulation
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... "definition" in quotes ...
Calvino Rabeni: Anyway, to some degree PAB is "intentionally left blank"
Calvino Rabeni: Or rather, somewhat loosely defined
Calvino Rabeni: Minimally, being here, using the idea of "pauses" to be mindful -
Calvino Rabeni: And then observing what happens out of that

Calvino Rabeni: But, we shouldn't get the credit, as if we made it up
Calvino Rabeni: We and the world are made for each other
Calvino Rabeni: Our bodies are affordances that could be seen to be expressions of the environment
Mitzi Mimistrobell: A submarine navigates through the deep, adeptly avoiding smaashing into things. The submarine thinks to itself - I am so smart!
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Look how cleverly I maneuver. I am intelligent and self-directing.
Bertram Jacobus smiles at the thinking submarine and thinks : better then sinking ... ;-)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: But really the submarine was designed to be that way. It can't take credit.
Calvino Rabeni: Right. Like, the fly is not so very clever and quick when it gets blown aside by the wind in advance of the hand
that's trying to swat it

~~
Eliza Madrigal: The book is called "From Eternity to Here", and the author basically said that no one knows why past is 'back there' and future 'up ahead'...http://preposterousuniverse.com/eternitytohere/
Eliza Madrigal: instead of visa versa
Eliza Madrigal: He said that the universe was far more organized in the beginning than now....
Eliza Madrigal: which seems an odd idea...
Eliza Madrigal: Anyway, my noticings were more about a theme during the day I couldn't 'escape'
Eliza Madrigal: :))

Eden Haiku:  "It is a poor sort of memory that only works backwards ".

Eden Haiku: I like the notion of Zeroeth time very much, the hologram metaphor.
Eden Haiku: Past, present and future being layers instead of sequences.
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, me too.... makes sense if one doesn't have to 'prove' it ;-D

Eliza Madrigal: hm... but feeling it without that element of awareness present might not help either...
Liza Deischer: yes
Liza Deischer: you could be right eliza
Eden Haiku: @Eliza. Yes, I know it can unknot more. I'm in a process of doing so.
Eliza Madrigal smiles and breathes
Liza Deischer: because then emotions will happen and happen again, not getting solved
Eliza Madrigal: when I would remember those dogs, before they changed, I would get very nervous... hands sweating... want to run....
Eden Haiku: That is how future can shine from the hologram and remind me how it feels when this is healed!
Zen Arado: have to let emotion thoughts melt' Joko Brck says
Eden Haiku: *shine, My grammar is gone too...
Eliza Madrigal: but determining to look into their eyes with awareness... that was the 'shift'
Eliza Madrigal: with a nod to Liza :)
Liza Deischer: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, Eden!?? say more?
Eliza Madrigal: we can draw in a future where it is solved?
Eden Haiku: Like, right now I'm still affected by this trigger from the past memory. But when it will be unknot completely, I will experience only lightness and peace. Starting at the end...

~~

Eliza Madrigal: Cal that was an interesting session last night... skimmed a bit of it
Agatha Macbeth: Missed that...
Calvino Rabeni: Yes a couple of visitors where here who had a lot ot offer
Calvino Rabeni: it was a good session
Eliza Madrigal: philosophical and stretchy, but still light...
Eliza Madrigal: about.... the brain.....
Eliza Madrigal: sort of
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Erk
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Calvino Rabeni: beyond the brain - i think the session if it could speak would agree, the brain takes too much of the credit :)
Agatha Macbeth nods @ Cal
Eliza Madrigal: indeed
Qt Core: (haven't read the log yet) so what is there beyond the brain ?
Eliza Madrigal: So how would you sum it up Cal?
Calvino Rabeni: the world, evolution
Eliza Madrigal: systems .. patterns... ?
Calvino Rabeni: THe brain is like the perfect dance parner, responsive to the evolving conditions of the dance of life, but not the master and commander of the universe

Agatha Macbeth: Did we ever work out what 'reality' was by the way?
Eliza Madrigal: hehehehe
Eliza Madrigal: Want to give it a stab?
Agatha Macbeth: Errrrr.......nnnnnnnnnnnno
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Eliza Madrigal grins
Agatha Macbeth: 42?
Eliza Madrigal: I've been working with the 'nature of' phrase lately... like.... 'nature of play'
Agatha Macbeth: Mm?
Eliza Madrigal: like what is it that we feel when we
Eliza Madrigal: onigokko
Eliza Madrigal: stop
Agatha Macbeth: Ah, the nature of onigokko

 
wol says:
/me sings: "If God is a DJ, Life is the dance floor, Love is the rhythm, You are the music"

~~