13-15 - Just Dance

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    We're fools whether we dance or not, so we might as well dance.  ~Japanese Proverb pablo-picasso-the-dance-of-youth.jpg




    Yakuzza Lethecus: so sometimes i have the feeling that ppl around here are more philosophical in some sense then in the philo places where ppl throughing around fancy names

    Scathach Rhiadra: it is interesting that some traditions recognise different types of wisdom, like 'prajna' and 'jnana'. Prajna is wisdom from understanding and jnana is directly experienced (i think!)
    Bertrum Quan: Scath, can you talk about that a bit more?
    Scathach Rhiadra: well, prajna would be gained by reading and considering sutras and commentaries, hence the Prajnaparamita Sutra = perfection of wisdom.....
    Scathach Rhiadra: jnana would come from meditation and contemplation, awareness and insight
    Bertrum Quan: An integration of both... to create the whole.
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes:)

    Scathach Rhiadra: though if jnana is a more natural wisdom or the wisdom of our true nature, it would include all wisdom that we might gain from other sources like study


    Adams Rubble: I am learning to see the clouds now for what they are
    Adams Rubble: They caught me by surprise
    Bertram Jacobus: what kind of visions are they ?
    Adams Rubble: when what we think is there, really isn't
    Adams Rubble: not visions, but allowing my mind to create its own reality
    Bertram Jacobus: ah. hm ...
    Adams Rubble: It is a new experience to have the mind create new things which need to be dropped in order to see
    Adams Rubble: new experience for me that is
    Adams Rubble: before I was dropping long held things
    Bertram Jacobus: understandable ...
    Bertram Jacobus: i´m not sure of anything actually. and that is okay for me ;-)
    Adams Rubble: :)


    Adams Rubble: I am used to thinking in terms of spiritual seeing
    Adams Rubble: seeing that we are going to die
    Calvino Rabeni: Like, if that is a habit, a convention, or even a way physical organs work, then the "other" side of seeing is outside that
    Adams Rubble: that our life is impermanent
    Adams Rubble: one might subsitute the word "knowing" for my seeing maybe
    Calvino Rabeni: The other side of thingness - applied to the idea of life - is not that we are here now and will die, but are continuously being born
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: The experience of "seeing" may include the constant arising as well as the constant passing away
    Adams Rubble nods
    Adams Rubble: we need to shed things
    Adams Rubble: the concept of rebirth is a recognition of the clouds that form and must be shed


    Zen Arado: if you have a lot of layers of paint it is intesting to uncover them again
    Eliza Madrigal: hmmm... and when you said that I remembered a work I viewed once which had chicken wire embedded in it...
    Eden Haiku: Layers is an interesting topic.
    Zen Arado: let the underlying layer come through in unexpected ways
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes Eden, very much so. What does it conjur for you?
    Eden Haiku: Like let being shine?
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: excavation
    Eden Haiku: Shine through our identities or identifications?
    Zen Arado: we let out real nature shine through
    Eden Haiku: Archeology of our souls.

    Eden Haiku: We invent causalities that aren't.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes!
    Zen Arado: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: and then build them little temples
    Eden Haiku: Little temples of our littleness.
    Agatha Macbeth: Or liitle dungeons...
    Zen Arado: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh Oh, definitely
    Eden Haiku: And dragons too...
    Zen Arado: getting poetic :)
    Eden Haiku: Are we?
    Agatha Macbeth smiles @ Eden
    Zen Arado: think so :)

    Eden Haiku: Like the impression sometimes that we could peel the sky and behind there would be something else, the wheels of time or whatever
    Eliza Madrigal: Mmmm
    Eden Haiku: Behind our pixel world even in RL
    Eden Haiku: same same
    Eliza Madrigal: or *just* awareness.. yet not mine or yours
    Zen Arado: sandpaper ourselves back
    Eliza Madrigal: !! :))
    Agatha Macbeth: Ouch that hurts! :(
    Eliza Madrigal: friction
    Eliza Madrigal: hahahahahah Agatha
    Zen Arado: wet and dry works great :)
    Eden Haiku: Sandpaper ourselves back that is beautiful!
    Eliza Madrigal: the sand working on the pearl
    Eden Haiku: And that hurts yes Agatha!
    arabella Ella: to remove tough and rough edges
    Zen Arado: stories are comforting then ?
    Eliza Madrigal: oo yes... show us where we're edgy
    Agatha Macbeth likes to think she's smooth enough already
    Eliza Madrigal: and what we're trying to cover for

    arabella Ella: i remember camping in the castle grounds as a girl guide and waking up to walk to the castle to see whether we would see the ghost of the blue lady
    arabella Ella: must have been around 12 or 13
    Eliza Madrigal: Sounds like that might make a nice little book, Ara
    arabella Ella: yes
    Eden Haiku: Wow, I like that story Ara!
    Eliza Madrigal can picture the blue lady
    Zen Arado: I have a friend is interested in ghosts
    Eden Haiku: Oh,,,
    arabella Ella: lots of ghosts and spirits on this little rock


    Pema Pera: "the big bang was not an explosion in space, but an explosion of space"
    Pema Pera: but those metaphorical ideas only capture part of the physics
    Pila Mulligan: space expands but space-time does not ...
    Pema Pera: space could be said to expand, in the course of time, with time passing
    Pila Mulligan: ok
    Pema Pera: given that "time passing" is our normal reference way of looking at things
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pema Pera: it's all compromise :)

    Pema Pera: dark energy is not related to photons
    Pila Mulligan: thanks
    Pema Pera: and we simply don't know what it is made out of
    Pila Mulligan: is there a 'no compromise' version?
    Pema Pera: and ultimately everything is "made out of" some kind of building blocks at the tiniest of scales, at the Planck length, we expect -- but we don't have an agreed-upon complete theory for that scale yet
    Pila Mulligan: this is like quarks?
    Pema Pera: so we only have approximate theories (like general relativity and quantum field theories), and the uncompromised form of those theories are the mathematical equations -- not the words used to try to make a bit of flamoyant sense of it
    Archmage Atlantis: All things are infinitely expandable, and infinitely divideable
    Pila Mulligan: ahh

    Pema Pera: so the words are twice removed from (physical) reality: approximations to what are already approximate theories

    Pema Pera: so words are approximate ways to characterize approximating attempts at extrapolations of observations :-)

    Pema Pera: time and space are in first approximation the stage on which everything else takes place
    Pema Pera: but in general relativity,

    the stage itself takes part in the dynamic dance

    Pema Pera: physics is the story of our realm -- and then there is the question of how any realm arises
    Pema Pera: or does it?
    Pema Pera: does anything ever arise?
    Pema Pera: or are there only appearances?
    Pema Pera: or just the presence of appearance
    Pema Pera: in a non-appearaing non-arising timeless way?
    Pema Pera: that's more the metaphysics I am interested in :-)
    Pila Mulligan: our cultural spectrum of perception (thinks Aldus Huxley) also limits our sceince
    Paradise Tennant: hmm the movie projector version of reality reminds me of some of the buddhist explanations of samsara
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pila Mulligan: we have our attention directed by our social environment
    Pila Mulligan: or even PLato's Cave explanaiton
    Pema Pera: the practical challenge is to dare to turn our gaze around, so to speak -- there is a kind of decisiveness that is needed, yes, like getting out of the cave


    Bertram Jacobus: you know what ? i took a break from all that bad news which press and media put all day on us (!) ...
    Moon Fargis: same here :)
    Bertram Jacobus: press*
    Moon Fargis: ^^
    Moon Fargis: ok hmm then lets see some hapy news
    Bertram Jacobus: can´t see a good sense in it anymore -
    Stargate Tone: has not TV and not listened radio, but cannot avoid headlines when goes to the foodmarkets, as there in Finland there's almost all to buy from them big stores
    Qt Core: you have real radios with news and all in shops stargate ?
    Qt Core: or just the newspapers headlines ?
    Stargate Tone: ah not readios, but them newpapers and such are at the first to see when enter
    Stargate Tone: then radios there plays only advertizings and music
    Stargate Tone: even such 'tiny shops' we call to be as 'kioski'; such that I know to be in Italy also 'all over', but to by either magazines or tobacco or so
    Stargate Tone: as we have huge stores which sell 'from the pin up to the locomotion' as we use to say
    Bertram Jacobus: atm i find it even a bit absurd that all that heavy stuff is put on all every day - i think, it should be different :

    "try to make the world a better place" ...


    Eliza Madrigal: something i've been actively noticing lately has to do with this idea of attention & time... but more hm... awareness and time... not as something one can lead, but can kind of allow more and more / so like, not 'my' awareness... just awareness

    Fael Illyar: DST went unsynchronized a couple of years ago when US moved the time.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ah
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, another george bush move I think...
    Liza Deischer: ah, old georgie.....:-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: if linden would be in arizona they wouldn´t even have DST
    Archmage Atlantis: Which george
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh i remember now, it was a power thing, but related to electric power, the idea being saving electricity
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe... must have some kind of background strategificantionary...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: that is the strangest thing in the states for me, that it´s not nationwide
    Archmage Atlantis: I remember 3
    SophiaSharon Larnia: lol Eliza at the word! wont spell it
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Fael Illyar: I'd think it's the one who was in power a couple of years back.
    Eliza Madrigal: W : 'the decider'
    Liza Deischer: is that his nickname in the US?
    Archmage Atlantis: The US is not a nation, it is an association of states...thus USA
    SophiaSharon Larnia: it is nationwide Yakuzza, not global
    Eliza Madrigal: a name he gave himself, Liza!


    Maxine Walden: this is one reason I try to avoid any multi-tasking during these sessions....to be really here as much as I can be
    Pema Pera: yes, me too
    Pema Pera: the silences between sentences appearaing are so many mini meditations
    Maxine Walden: so much conveyed in the silences...
    Eos Amaterasu: that silence crosses the SL/RL boundary
    Pema Pera: the play of words and silence, like tide lands . . .
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Mmm
    Maxine Walden: silence also offers space for evocations
    Pema Pera: a PaB session can feel like a kind of shared meditation: in the middle of periods of relative silence, words and ideas pop up, sometimes your own, sometimes of others :)
    Pema Pera: like waves appearing and subsiding

    Pema Pera: (I wonder whether chat logs could be made to convey the silences; time markers are a rather stiff way to do so: lines could perhaps be separated by a fraction of an inch for the fraction of a minute that there was silence . . . )
    Pema Pera: ((re: Maxine's response to Eliza))
    Maxine Walden: interesting thought, Pema
    Eliza Madrigal: yes you know I did that with Eden's sharing yesterday... impossible to convey without the space...

    Pema Pera: draping ourselves in space . . . in order to convey time
    Maxine Walden: interesting image: 'draping ourselves in space'
    Maxine Walden: but thinking of it, maybe aspects of space are the best visual image of time we have at hand...

    Maxine Walden: was in a discussion the other day and the tension between holding on to the 'known' vs being open to the new was palpable

    Pema Pera: can you say more about that discussion, Maxine?
    Maxine Walden: hmm, the issue, which I actually brought up, was about clinging to our theories rather than going with direct experience

    Maxine Walden: And while several seemed to nod in agreement about staying open to the new, there was a significant effort to measure everything 'new' according to one's tried and 'true' knowings
    Pema Pera: :)
    Maxine Walden: and I was left feeling the fierceness with which aspects of us all can hold on to 'what I know to be true'
    Pema Pera: cutting the new down to size -- we all have that fundamentalist streak, I'm afraid

    Maxine Walden: often loudly crowding out the quiet space for the new evocations perhaps
    Eliza Madrigal: mmmm, yes wow
    Maxine Walden: Interesting, that after the discussion, I felt both very lonely in terms of rather singly holding this space for the new, or so it seemed at the time, but I also felt grateful for the opportunity to do so

    Maxine Walden: Mixed feelings as we try to share some of these perspectives with friends and colleagues
    Maxine Walden: I was also holding quietly in mind during that discussion (perhaps defensively) the notion of the paradigm shift : and how fiercely it is resisted, until all of a sudden the shift occurs


    Pema Pera: As a personal footnote to the sense of loneliness that Maxine talked about: For the longest time I've felt lonely in scientific circles, for not being able to share my spiritual interests with friends who were otherwise very playfully exploring; and similarly lonely in spiritual circles, for equally not being able to share my scientific interests in working with working hypotheses and such --

    for full disclosure, you can say that starting PaB was my way of acquiring true friends, interested in both ways of appreciating the world (without necessarily having a spiritual and scientific background: more the openness to both ways of exploring).


    Fael Illyar smiles 'I'd say you succeeded very well with that.'
    Widget Whiteberry considers that Pema may have just held up a lantern
    Agatha Macbeth: Yep. Seems to work :)
    Pema Pera: it took only 38 years to "find the formula" . . . :)
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Bleu Oleander: a wonderful space of knowing and sharing you have created
    Zen Arado: had to wait for the world to catch up...
    Zen Arado: even if it is a SL world
    Widget Whiteberry: or cast a wide enough net
    Maxine Walden: yes, a very creative outcome


    [recalling in the guardian meeting this morning there was discussion as to how to represent silence in the chatlogs: with space which I am trying to do here, but also with brackets to offer some of the musings during the spaces my posted musings]

    Maxine Walden: (am growing fond of the three dragonflies, as I now call them; sort of wafting presences over the pool; I feel wafting with them, quite lyrical)

    [admittedly during this time, I turn to draft in my mind a few remarks about open-hearted learning which I will offer some new students this next week, and it feels easy to do amidst the open-hearted atmosphere of this musing time between and the dragonflies]


    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm still a little unclear on what we are doing here as Kira / Play as Being participants. What "should" I be doing when I'm here?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I've read the website and all, but it doens't stick in my mind ... somehow.
    Calvino Rabeni: There are certain intentionally unformed ideas we can talk about
    Calvino Rabeni: Remember Peter Ralston?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: oh yeah?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Peter Ralston. Yes indeed!
    Calvino Rabeni: Of course he got asked - can you just tell me - define it
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: He got asked ... what?
    Calvino Rabeni: Like, what the **** are you talking about :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Oh now I get it. Yes, people wanted a simple mind-bite. But,
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: he was trying to elicit a more experiential state for his students.
    Calvino Rabeni: e.g. a new improved definition about how to know reality, what to do, etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Just wrapping it up in a conceptual package and putting a bow on it wasn't going to substantively add anything for his students, no matter how good the formulation
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... "definition" in quotes ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Anyway, to some degree PAB is "intentionally left blank"
    Calvino Rabeni: Or rather, somewhat loosely defined
    Calvino Rabeni: Minimally, being here, using the idea of "pauses" to be mindful -
    Calvino Rabeni: And then observing what happens out of that

    Calvino Rabeni: But, we shouldn't get the credit, as if we made it up
    Calvino Rabeni: We and the world are made for each other
    Calvino Rabeni: Our bodies are affordances that could be seen to be expressions of the environment
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: A submarine navigates through the deep, adeptly avoiding smaashing into things. The submarine thinks to itself - I am so smart!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Look how cleverly I maneuver. I am intelligent and self-directing.
    Bertram Jacobus smiles at the thinking submarine and thinks : better then sinking ... ;-)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: But really the submarine was designed to be that way. It can't take credit.
    Calvino Rabeni: Right. Like, the fly is not so very clever and quick when it gets blown aside by the wind in advance of the hand
    that's trying to swat it


    Eliza Madrigal: The book is called "From Eternity to Here", and the author basically said that no one knows why past is 'back there' and future 'up ahead'...http://preposterousuniverse.com/eternitytohere/
    Eliza Madrigal: instead of visa versa
    Eliza Madrigal: He said that the universe was far more organized in the beginning than now....
    Eliza Madrigal: which seems an odd idea...
    Eliza Madrigal: Anyway, my noticings were more about a theme during the day I couldn't 'escape'
    Eliza Madrigal: :))

    Eden Haiku:  "It is a poor sort of memory that only works backwards ".

    Eden Haiku: I like the notion of Zeroeth time very much, the hologram metaphor.
    Eden Haiku: Past, present and future being layers instead of sequences.
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, me too.... makes sense if one doesn't have to 'prove' it ;-D

    Eliza Madrigal: hm... but feeling it without that element of awareness present might not help either...
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Liza Deischer: you could be right eliza
    Eden Haiku: @Eliza. Yes, I know it can unknot more. I'm in a process of doing so.
    Eliza Madrigal smiles and breathes
    Liza Deischer: because then emotions will happen and happen again, not getting solved
    Eliza Madrigal: when I would remember those dogs, before they changed, I would get very nervous... hands sweating... want to run....
    Eden Haiku: That is how future can shine from the hologram and remind me how it feels when this is healed!
    Zen Arado: have to let emotion thoughts melt' Joko Brck says
    Eden Haiku: *shine, My grammar is gone too...
    Eliza Madrigal: but determining to look into their eyes with awareness... that was the 'shift'
    Eliza Madrigal: with a nod to Liza :)
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, Eden!?? say more?
    Eliza Madrigal: we can draw in a future where it is solved?
    Eden Haiku: Like, right now I'm still affected by this trigger from the past memory. But when it will be unknot completely, I will experience only lightness and peace. Starting at the end...


    Eliza Madrigal: Cal that was an interesting session last night... skimmed a bit of it
    Agatha Macbeth: Missed that...
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes a couple of visitors where here who had a lot ot offer
    Calvino Rabeni: it was a good session
    Eliza Madrigal: philosophical and stretchy, but still light...
    Eliza Madrigal: about.... the brain.....
    Eliza Madrigal: sort of
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Erk
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: beyond the brain - i think the session if it could speak would agree, the brain takes too much of the credit :)
    Agatha Macbeth nods @ Cal
    Eliza Madrigal: indeed
    Qt Core: (haven't read the log yet) so what is there beyond the brain ?
    Eliza Madrigal: So how would you sum it up Cal?
    Calvino Rabeni: the world, evolution
    Eliza Madrigal: systems .. patterns... ?
    Calvino Rabeni: THe brain is like the perfect dance parner, responsive to the evolving conditions of the dance of life, but not the master and commander of the universe

    Agatha Macbeth: Did we ever work out what 'reality' was by the way?
    Eliza Madrigal: hehehehe
    Eliza Madrigal: Want to give it a stab?
    Agatha Macbeth: Errrrr.......nnnnnnnnnnnno
    Agatha Macbeth: :)
    Eliza Madrigal grins
    Agatha Macbeth: 42?
    Eliza Madrigal: I've been working with the 'nature of' phrase lately... like.... 'nature of play'
    Agatha Macbeth: Mm?
    Eliza Madrigal: like what is it that we feel when we
    Eliza Madrigal: onigokko
    Eliza Madrigal: stop
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah, the nature of onigokko

    wol says:
    /me sings: "If God is a DJ, Life is the dance floor, Love is the rhythm, You are the music"


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