2017.05.11 13:00 - Us and Them

The Guardian for this casual The Wisdom of Lived Experience - Views from Psychoanalysis, Neuroscience, Philosophy and Metaphysics meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The added comments are by Eliza Madrigal. I took the liberty of changing some typos that might have confused readers down the road, but only where oxytocin , which is the main topic and also what everyone meant, was confused with oxycontin. :)

Catrinamonblue Resident: busy busy :) yesterday was even worse though with getting the new car :)
Aphrodite Macbain: wow
Aphrodite Macbain: what are u getting?
Eliza Madrigal: But that's a happy busy.... nice car and color!
Catrinamonblue Resident: My old car decided to need too much work, I got a 2017 Ford Fiesta :) mint green, cute as a botton :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Unfortunately buying stuff always cheers me up.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: nice Cat
Eliza Madrigal: I haven't seen many mint green cars about... reflreshing
Catrinamonblue Resident: I've never had a brand new car before, it's fun :)
Eliza Madrigal: I bought new water filters! hahah
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: SL clothes cheer me up too
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: can be so dramatic
Eliza Madrigal: I'd love to dress like this every day in RL
Catrinamonblue Resident: me too :)
Aphrodite Macbain: yes me too

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Tura :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi tura :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Tura
Eliza Madrigal: and wearing a lovely green, too
Tura Brezoianu: hi all
Aphrodite Macbain: eek the sound is on again
Eliza Madrigal: hm. Tura do you hear talking, or music?
Aphrodite Macbain: en francais
Tura Brezoianu: no, just the fountain and the birds
Aphrodite Macbain: I had to turn off my sound completely
Eliza Madrigal nods... seems to be just you Aph

Eliza Madrigal: I was remembering that we had a 'mist' to signify the bell before,
Aphrodite Macbain: well, I've always been sensitive to noise :-)
Eliza Madrigal: so that people would know even if they had sound off
Aphrodite Macbain: a mist?
Eliza Madrigal: yes, it would turn from water to mist
Eliza Madrigal: just for the pause
Aphrodite Macbain: probably before my time...I think I'd remember that
Catrinamonblue Resident: sounds cool :)
Eliza Madrigal: it was hiding in my memory until I was looking through photos
Aphrodite Macbain: I remember the ring of pink
Eliza Madrigal: that was fun :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I should have a look at mine to send to Adams

Aphrodite Macbain: we've done so much together
Eliza Madrigal: tis true
Eliza Madrigal: I was reading interviews over...
Aphrodite Macbain: and?
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: since Adams sent the link... and reading yours Aph... I'd forgotten how quickly you got so involved!
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, everyone.
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Bruce :)
Tura Brezoianu: hi Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: H Bruce :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes- within 2 months I was a Guardian
Aphrodite Macbain: Bruce too
Aphrodite Macbain: He introduced me to PaB
Bruce Mowbray: afk for a moment
Eliza Madrigal: yes you two arrived quickly together
Aphrodite Macbain: He told me "PaB is just my cup of tea"
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :)))
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)

--BELL--

Aphrodite Macbain: we share similar tastes in tea
Eliza Madrigal: how fitting
Eliza Madrigal: Bleu is trying to make it today, but hands and heart full of puppy
Aphrodite Macbain: awww
Aphrodite Macbain: maybe she can infect us with puppy love
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: best remedy for rainy mood ^.^

Aphrodite Macbain: Did you get a chance to see the TED talk aI sent out by email?
Eliza Madrigal: I did! Loved both talks!
Catrinamonblue Resident: I haven't had a chance yet
Aphrodite Macbain: Really interesting weren't they?
Eliza Madrigal: quite
Eliza Madrigal: the second one is quite short Cat, should I get a link?
Catrinamonblue Resident: :) that would be lovely
Aphrodite Macbain: We are influences by so many things in ways we aren't aware of
Eliza Madrigal: k, one moment :)
Eliza Madrigal: https://www.google.com/url?hl=en&q=h...QD6EwJBBIt44MQ
Catrinamonblue Resident: :) ty
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: the first is well worth the time too, but would take too large a chunk of session
Aphrodite Macbain: He's a very clear speaker
Catrinamonblue Resident: hopefully tomorrow I'll carve out a bit of time to listen :)

[   Here is the link to Sapolsky's longer talk: https://www.ted.com/talks/robert_sap...on__2017-05-09   ]

Tura Brezoianu: both interesting, but I don't place much trust in neuroscience stories these days. Reproducibility crisis and so on.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: there seems such a fervor to pin 'something' down
Aphrodite Macbain: Reproducibility crisi?
Aphrodite Macbain: can u say more Tura?
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Bleu.
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi BLeu!
Bleu Oleander: hi all :)
Aphrodite Macbain: how's the pup?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu!
Tura Brezoianu: a lot of research in medicine, psychology, and neuroscience doesn't reproduce
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Bleu :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I thought research had to be reproducible to be even published!
Bleu Oleander: pup is adorable!
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: she is: WOW
Aphrodite Macbain: Did u look into her eyes?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Tura Brezoianu: check out the work of John Ioannidis.
Bleu Oleander: she is :)
Aphrodite Macbain: kk Tura
Tura Brezoianu: The first crack in the dam was his paper "Why Most Published Research Findings Are False"
Aphrodite Macbain: huh
Aphrodite Macbain: was he challenged?
Eliza Madrigal: I've seen snippets of these articles and questions, but haven't looked closely
Bleu Oleander: media jumps on things too fast also
Eliza Madrigal nods
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Tura Brezoianu: it's pretty much accepted now that there is a real problem of bad research practices
Eliza Madrigal: the pressure is enormous
Eliza Madrigal: to publish


Aphrodite Macbain: So Robert Sapolsky could be wrong?
Bruce Mowbray ponders "Fake research"
Bleu Oleander: I doubt that, he's been at it a long time
Eliza Madrigal: "wrong" is probably not the word
Bleu Oleander: right
Aphrodite Macbain: inaccurate?
Eliza Madrigal: but keeping in mind that everything is "incomplete"
Bleu Oleander: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Tura Brezoianu: It's so easy to tell stories about research findings.
Bruce Mowbray: Speaking of "incomplete," would you mind giving your report to us today, Eliza?
Aphrodite Macbain: yes please
Bruce Mowbray: I feel incomplete not hearing it.
Bleu Oleander: all that doesn't mean we should assume all research is false
Aphrodite Macbain: :)
Eliza Madrigal: oh, thanks but I didn't keep it...
Aphrodite Macbain: can you remember bits of it Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: which is fine, was more an 'in the moment' thing :)

Eliza Madrigal: there is just so much data
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Bruce Mowbray feels guilty that his report was so long....
Eliza Madrigal: it takes a long time to work through it and find parallels and meanings between fields and experts
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Morgano.
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello MOrgano
Eliza Madrigal: No no, Bruce, please don't :)
Bleu Oleander: hi Morgano
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Morgano long time no see :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Does the Kira Cafe still exist morgano?
morgano Bravin: Hi, yes its not me but someone else who is usually here
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Morgano :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) someone with a new computer
Aphrodite Macbain: oh?
Aphrodite Macbain: ah
morgano Bravin: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: smiles
morgano Bravin: I have borrowed this avi

Eliza Madrigal: we were talking about the interesting videos shared in emails
morgano Bravin: great
Eliza Madrigal: and also the background of, not exactly skepticism but ...hm, what's the word, with which we should approach              [ was thinking of the word "suspension" (of belief, judgment, closure ]
morgano Bravin: btw hi everyone
Aphrodite Macbain: Intersting that there is a chemical that makes us distinguish between us and them
Eliza Madrigal: good to see you
Bruce Mowbray: Isn't a whole lot of ritual designed to identify and enforce "us" vs. "them"? --
Bruce Mowbray: Oxytocin.     
Aphrodite Macbain: I think so Bruce. Culture also contributes
Eliza Madrigal: it makes sense that we should be 'moved' by what is nearest to us to touch... until recent times
Aphrodite Macbain: should I avoid a sabre toothed tigre or not?
Eliza Madrigal laughs
Bruce Mowbray: Levels of oxytocin increase with recitation of creeds, songs, chanting, cheering, etc.
Tura Brezoianu: oxytocin, I think

Bleu Oleander: I don't think that's so, at least not in those words ... oxytocin helps in bonding with close groups
Aphrodite Macbain: Interesting Bruce
Bleu Oleander: so it does distinguish between us and them
Eliza Madrigal: yes that is interesting
Aphrodite Macbain: oh
Bleu Oleander: its just that it encourages mother child bonding
Aphrodite Macbain: I thought it reincorced the feeling of difference
Bruce Mowbray: WE believe this and that but THEY don't believe what WE believe.
Eliza Madrigal: I hadn't heard that it amplifies the 'other' sensibility in contrast before
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: that's what I got
Bleu Oleander: yes, it does reinforce the closeness of your own group

--BELL--

Aphrodite Macbain: as opposed to the difference of the other
Eliza Madrigal: so if a saber tooth griefer comes in we'll prob unite
Bleu Oleander: so also then encourages us to make distinction
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: we'll all jump in the pool
Bruce Mowbray: Nothing unites a group as much as a common enemy.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Eliza Madrigal: actually I think most of the time we respond with curiosity and openness first
Aphrodite Macbain: based on fear I guess

Bleu Oleander: interesting that our us and them groups are so flexible and changing and manipulative
Aphrodite Macbain: our amygdila plays a big role
Aphrodite Macbain: sp?
Bleu Oleander: put on a Yankee cap and you're in my "us" group LOL
Aphrodite Macbain: I'd put on a BLue Jays cap
morgano Bravin: :)
Bleu Oleander: I'd be in your "them" group then
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: eek
Eliza Madrigal: ...and after all we're only ordinary men...
Aphrodite Macbain: and women
Bleu Oleander: ordinary? men?
Eliza Madrigal: song :)              [  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDbeqj-1XOo  ]   
Bleu Oleander: yes hehe

Tura Brezoianu: Would it work to just visualise that the person's wearing the right baseball cap?
Aphrodite Macbain: maybe :-)
Bleu Oleander: probably for some yes
Bruce Mowbray: Excellent question, Tura.
Eliza Madrigal: I kept thinking that too.. wondering about metta meditation again
Aphrodite Macbain: It's the thought that counts or the senses
Bleu Oleander: but not in every "them" case
Aphrodite Macbain: there seem to be variables that reinforce others
Bleu Oleander: if you walked into a prison and visualized everyone in your team's cap I don't think you would take them in to your "us" group

Bruce Mowbray ponders the signifying function of t-shirts and baseball caps.
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder what trumps what (no pun intended)
Bleu Oleander: promote group support Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: much of the time it is about who one thinks sees 'me' as 'them'
Tura Brezoianu: In a way, the extreme changeability of these things is a positive message -- if they can be changed by external trifles, maybe they can be as easily changed by internal, deliberately chosen trifles
Bleu Oleander: that too
Eliza Madrigal nods
Bleu Oleander: agree Tura
Eliza Madrigal: until now though, I was wondering if oxytocin shots would help
Bleu Oleander: in the video they tried that
Eliza Madrigal: now, not so much... less of a blanket
Aphrodite Macbain: If someone is from another culture would they be more "other" than someone who is from a different gender?
Bleu Oleander: and it strengthened the us vs them
Eliza Madrigal nods

Eliza Madrigal: that's where experience comes in?
Eliza Madrigal: depending on whether someone has a bigger issue with certain categories?
Bleu Oleander: I don't think there is a hierarchy of "others" ...
Aphrodite Macbain: How does one administer oxytocin?
Tura Brezoianu: People belong to multiple cultures. Someone could share some of them with you and not others.
Aphrodite Macbain: I got a sense from his talk that there were Bleu
Bleu Oleander: I think a spritz in the nose, if I'm remembering right
Bleu Oleander: different for each of us Aph
Eliza Madrigal nods... so skills are needed to stick around longer with someone until various aspects come to light perhaps
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- the sober second thought Eliza
Bleu Oleander: important to try to keep expanding our "us" group
Bleu Oleander: so ... drop the importance of some of our categories
Aphrodite Macbain: It is interesting how quickly we respond. Perhaps it's so we run before we realize it's a tigre
Eliza Madrigal: :) all sounds like buddhism to me ^.^
Aphrodite Macbain: :-) we are all one
Bleu Oleander: well, Buddhism is a category
Bleu Oleander: and one that has "them" and "us"
Aphrodite Macbain: Nice t shirt Bruce :-)
Bruce Mowbray: ty.
Eliza Madrigal snaps photo

Bleu Oleander: one way I think of Buddhism is that I like to study it among other philosophies of life and take some of the parts I like and combine with others but not put myself in the category of "buddhist"
Eliza Madrigal: what is happening in our world, or some of our worlds, seems to be a lot of questioning whether ideas like dropping or lessening categories is valuable in its own right
Bleu Oleander: hi San :)
Eliza Madrigal nods Bleu
Eliza Madrigal: Hi San :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder whether meditation would help us determine our proclivities and fears; or whether these proclivities are only chemically induced or created.
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, San-ji.
Aphrodite Macbain: Hey San
morgano Bravin: hi san
Santoshima Resident: hllo
Aphrodite Macbain: subconsious
Eliza Madrigal: we've mostly been talking about the videos shared earlier, San
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi San :)

Bruce Mowbray: Meditation could alter the brain chemistry, I suppose.
Aphrodite Macbain: It would be nice to become better aware of our biases so we could analyse them
Eliza Madrigal nods
Bruce Mowbray also nods.
Bleu Oleander: every experience alters the brain is some ways
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Bleu Oleander: I don't think any one thing does it all for everyone

--BELL--


Eliza Madrigal: I feel like, cultivating spaciousness is the thing... like he was talking about snap responses
Aphrodite Macbain: Has anyone ever been surprised by realizing their own biases?
Eliza Madrigal nods
Aphrodite Macbain: or are we each fully aware of them?

Bruce Mowbray: Does this section of Maxine's book suggest that we come into the world with innate biases?
Bleu Oleander: its part of it for sure, but also all our experience
Bruce Mowbray nods.
morgano Bravin: maybe we think we are aware of them?..but perhaps would be supprised if we found the real ones
Aphrodite Macbain: that's what I was wondering morgano
Bleu Oleander: yes Morgano :)
Bleu Oleander: we seem to have innate bias for fairness according to some research
Aphrodite Macbain: a sense of justice?
Bruce Mowbray: I suspect that the things we are most negatively biased about might be the very things that we cannot "see" in ourselves - where they might actually be more predominant than they are in others.
morgano Bravin: have you ever filled out those profiling questionairs and discovered with disapointment what the results were?
morgano Bravin: he he
Bleu Oleander: yes, fairness and justice
Aphrodite Macbain: I think you're right Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: like which kind of questionairre morgano?
Bleu Oleander: we have a bias for those who look and act like us
Aphrodite Macbain: Myers Briggs?
Bruce Mowbray: The brain tries to "make sense" of things however it can.... usually through memories of past experiences.
morgano Bravin: those ..yes Aoh
Bleu Oleander: yes
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
morgano Bravin: Aph
Bruce Mowbray: Totally ambiguous images or sounds will be interpreted by the brain to conform with previous experiences, memories.

Bleu Oleander: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/
Aphrodite Macbain leans forward to hear morgano's whispers
Bruce Mowbray: even though they may have no relationship to them whtsoever.
morgano Bravin: are they called phycometrics or something?
Eliza Madrigal: Oh I remember being surprised by that implicit bias test
Bleu Oleander: http://blindspot.fas.harvard.edu/ ... we met her a while back ... very interesting research
Aphrodite Macbain: what did you find out Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: well the implications are just stunning... when you think of our legal system etc
Bleu Oleander: yes!
Eliza Madrigal: but it helps you to glimpse 'flash' judgments we're making all the time
Aphrodite Macbain: goody- now I have three websites to explore :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Bleu Oleander: ha!
morgano Bravin: he he
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)

Eliza Madrigal: I learned a lot of that here, too, though....
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder what I'll find out about myself.
Eliza Madrigal: because I could look back and read where I heard someone wrong by adding my own info from who knows where
Aphrodite Macbain feels a bit nervous
Eliza Madrigal: we're all in the same boat, Aph :))
Bleu Oleander: yep :)
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, that works with "false memories," too.
Bruce Mowbray: (especially dangerous in courts of law).
Eliza Madrigal: the prediction veil

Aphrodite Macbain: what if I dont agree? Is that denial or critical thinking?
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: report back :)))
Bleu Oleander: its not definitive, just a guide
Bruce Mowbray: That's why peer review is so critical in science.
Aphrodite Macbain: kk Eliza
Aphrodite Macbain: yes Bruce- we can never be completely objective
Bruce Mowbray: also "reproducible results"

Santoshima Resident: ... 4th website ... for later ... https://www.facebook.com/SteampunkTe...video_guests=0
morgano Bravin: loves steampunk
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks San
Bleu Oleander: :) thanks San ... have lots of time atm with puppy ha!
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)

Eliza Madrigal: were there further thoughts on the reading that anyone would like to bring up?
Bruce Mowbray listens....
Catrinamonblue Resident: I had a few words drop onto a notecard last session but not sure if relevent
Aphrodite Macbain: great Cat
Bruce Mowbray: Please do share, Cat.
Eliza Madrigal: would love to hear
Catrinamonblue Resident: I'm going to post it as a whole so be warned to expand your chat window
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Bleu Oleander: :)
 

Formatting is crucial ahead, and I perhaps have not gotten it right so will ask Cat to mend. :)

Catrinamonblue Resident:

passion of anger
felt hatred
no not hatred
fear
fear fear
her fear
but not mine
but now my fear
unknown reactions
counter reactions
a dance of circles
her and I
until I stop
and she goes away
and we are no more
I wait
but she dies gone
and yet
there is peace
acceptance
she may not
have been able
to love me
but I have
loved her
many years
hard work
to find her
and know me

Catrinamonblue Resident: ok in 2 parts :) done :)

Eliza Madrigal reads

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: nice Cat ... your Mom?
Aphrodite Macbain: this is wonderful Cat
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes Bleu
Bleu Oleander: lovely thoughts
Eliza Madrigal: shows how identity blends together
Bruce Mowbray: Powerful, Cat.
Aphrodite Macbain: I imagine just writing this down helps
morgano Bravin: how lovely, ty Cat
Catrinamonblue Resident: it's funny that I could not understand her before and now I do but it's too late and yet I think she knows and it's ok :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) rest between you
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bleu Oleander: perhaps in some losing, there comes some clarity
Aphrodite Macbain: You should write more poetry Cat
Eliza Madrigal nods.. both

Bruce Mowbray: It took me half a century to finally have compassion for my mother's suffering - prior to my own birth.
Aphrodite Macbain: distance
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: was thinking a lot about Mick saying clear seeing came when he got a look back... but for many things one can't look back without stopping or losing... or something
Aphrodite Macbain: say more Eliza?
Bleu Oleander: some clarity in understanding my parents has come long after losing them for me, but I remember back then I also felt moments of clarity ... so context makes a huge difference I think
morgano Bravin: yes, I too feel sorry I left my father feeling like I loathed him just because of my ignorance
Catrinamonblue Resident: I sometimes wonder if I would still have this understanding if she was still alive or if it was her death that allowed me to have more compassion for her
Eliza Madrigal nods... very touching
Aphrodite Macbain: It will be interesting to see whether/ how your feelings change as you move on Cat

Bleu Oleander: of course memory works in strange ways too
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Eliza Madrigal: my grandfather is still alive... 87 years old and I had lots of issues with him over the years, but now we live in this kind of honeymoon place with each other almost, kind of sort of, around 'knowing' that he will die. It is really weird
Aphrodite Macbain: It has the ability to edit
Catrinamonblue Resident: wonders if maturity is a way of saying edit ;)
Bleu Oleander: and embellish
Aphrodite Macbain: Have you forgiven him Eliza?

Bruce Mowbray ponders how I have sabotaged myself. . . in very subtle ways. . . usually only identified after the fact, after the damage has been done.
Eliza Madrigal: nothing really to forgive... 'cept in the sense we all wish to have known better sooner etc
Catrinamonblue Resident: YES Eliza :) if only
Aphrodite Macbain: nods- hard to "correct" those things Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Tura Brezoianu: It's only in the years since my father died that I came to appreciate his character more, and regret that I hadn't known him better in life.
Tura Brezoianu: On the other hand, if he had lived longer, I'm not sure I would have.

Bruce Mowbray: Yes. So compassion for ourselves is also needed.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
morgano Bravin: he he Bruce, I was trying to tell my son of how I too managed that ..but one shouldnt stop experimenting for that is what life is for
Eliza Madrigal: it is really something... those questions
Aphrodite Macbain: good for you morgano
morgano Bravin: re sabotaging oneself
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes Tura, I think that too but now i live 4 blocks from the house my mother dies in only 2.5 years ago... ther's a lot of if only's in me some days......
Aphrodite Macbain: Tura!!! what do you mean?
Aphrodite Macbain: Hey Stevenaia! GTSY
morgano Bravin: Hi Stevie
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Stevie :)
Tura Brezoianu: It's easy to wish after nothing can be done. Doing it when it can be done is harder.
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Stevie :)
Eliza Madrigal nods
stevenaia Michinaga: Waves, just dropped by for a moment
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Steve.
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes Tura :)
morgano Bravin: I think I understand Tura, the gap between my father and myself whilst he was alive was too great
Bleu Oleander: perhaps we have a better relationship with some via memory than in actual day to day experience?
Bleu Oleander: waves to steve
Eliza Madrigal: sense of safety perhaps too
morgano Bravin: yet the gap in my case was just time and maturity

Aphrodite Macbain: We dont fully mature until we are in our twenties
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: or 40's :)
Aphrodite Macbain: sometimes much later!
Bleu Oleander: that's optomistic Aph
stevenaia Michinaga: or never
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Eliza Madrigal needs to go back to her twenties to find that spot
morgano Bravin: I was a late maturer. maybe 50
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bleu Oleander: LOL
Bruce Mowbray: (It take some of us MUCH longer than that, Aph...)
Bruce Mowbray: takes8
Bruce Mowbray: takes*
Eliza Madrigal: "I think I left something here"
Bruce Mowbray agrees and identifies with Morgano.
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bleu Oleander: our cortex doesn't finish development until mid 20's ... maturity is a long hawl hehe
Aphrodite Macbain: I mean in therms of our brain being completely grown
Aphrodite Macbain: tersm
Aphrodite Macbain: terms
Aphrodite Macbain: sigh
Eliza Madrigal nods... was hearing that and realizing I was already a mom then
Aphrodite Macbain: mine is still growing
Eliza Madrigal: at 22
Catrinamonblue Resident: 21
Bleu Oleander: wow
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bleu Oleander: I was not even close to thinking about being a mom at 22
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Aph, the brain is incredibly plastic.... Learning happens all through life.
Aphrodite Macbain: It's what we do with our brain that matters
Aphrodite Macbain: I guess

--BELL--


Tura Brezoianu: whenever I think back on myself 10 or 20 years ago, I think, "how did I manage to live in something so small?" :)
morgano Bravin: this must mean the optimum peak would be when you become cantankorous and obstreterous and so forth
Aphrodite Macbain: small?
Bleu Oleander: hehe
Aphrodite Macbain: then our brains are shrinking morgano
Tura Brezoianu: limited. Less than I am now.
Eliza Madrigal: ah, yes.... I feel that, still, sort of

Aphrodite Macbain: watches Bruce getting ready to scrape
Bruce Mowbray: I am off to crape up supper and increase my size!!
morgano Bravin: :)
Santoshima Resident: bye
Aphrodite Macbain: byee Bruce
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Bruce :)
Eliza Madrigal: bye Bruce :)
Bleu Oleander: bye Bruce
morgano Bravin: bye Bruce
morgano Bravin: I will sneak away, thankyou for having me :)
Bleu Oleander: bye morgano
Aphrodite Macbain: great you came.
Eliza Madrigal: nice of you to make it morgano
Santoshima Resident: bye
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder what you will look like next time
morgano Bravin: he he
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Tura Brezoianu: bye morgano, I don't think we've met before
Bleu Oleander: I must go too ... puppy needs a time out LOL
morgano Bravin: a cloud no doubt
Eliza Madrigal: (((puppy))))
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye morgano :)
stevenaia Michinaga: Nice to see everyone
Eliza Madrigal: bye blue :) smootches from us
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Bleu much love to the puppy :)
Eliza Madrigal feels flooded with feels just thinking about puppy
Bleu Oleander: bye all, take care .... little woof from Zoey :)
Aphrodite Macbain: tickle the puppy for me Bleu
Aphrodite Macbain: awww
Eliza Madrigal: sweet
stevenaia Michinaga: off to my next meeting :)
Tura Brezoianu: bye for now
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Tura, Bye Stevie :)
Eliza Madrigal: have nice evenings
Catrinamonblue Resident: :) Bye Stevie and Tura :)

Eliza Madrigal: I should have prepped reading for next week
Catrinamonblue Resident: :) it's ok emails are for that
Eliza Madrigal: :) hopefully so
Eliza Madrigal: those who are good about emails are very good
Eliza Madrigal: and others....
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :) true
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye all. I may not be here next week.
Catrinamonblue Resident: Enjoy your holiday :)
Eliza Madrigal: bye Aph, check in if you are able
Eliza Madrigal: <3
Aphrodite Macbain: <3<3
Aphrodite Macbain: OK
Aphrodite Macbain: smiles at Cat
Eliza Madrigal: Stevie may not know she is still here
stevenaia Michinaga: I am off in a a sec
Eliza Madrigal grins
Catrinamonblue Resident: I'm just waiting for Yann to come home :)
Eliza Madrigal: nice feeling :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :) yes
stevenaia Michinaga: got an email from Visitor looking for live sessions here, says she used to attend but no record of her
Eliza Madrigal: I'm just processing... so many things come up in sessions and it is impossible to follow up on all... self-sabotage is one
Eliza Madrigal: Hm, I'm not familiar with that name
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
stevenaia Michinaga: we are IM'g here but no idea where she came from
Eliza Madrigal: maybe it is an old one....
Eliza Madrigal: there was a soulstar, but diff first name
stevenaia Michinaga: correct
Eliza Madrigal: the google calendar at the bottom of the wiki front page is pretty accurate
stevenaia Michinaga: I'm trying to steer her to a session but ... we shall see
Eliza Madrigal: kept up to date
Eliza Madrigal: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: Mik wasn't at one session she was attending
stevenaia Michinaga: I'll keep you posted, tolds her about these sessions
Eliza Madrigal: bruce has a session saturday... I think that is the next one
Eliza Madrigal: or depending on timezone... wol
stevenaia Michinaga: hope she finds what she is looking for
Eliza Madrigal: :) me too
stevenaia Michinaga: nods
stevenaia Michinaga: see ya
Eliza Madrigal: bfn

Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Cat
stevenaia Michinaga: gtsy
Catrinamonblue Resident: you too
Eliza Madrigal: so hopefully you'll still take nice walks now that you can take extra nice drives, Cat :))
Catrinamonblue Resident: :) maybe, I think I'm going to have to find more work to pay for such a nice car :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: it wasn't planned for this year
Eliza Madrigal nods...
Eliza Madrigal: reading your poem... do you think you would be so open hearted/easy to fall in love.. if you hadn't had such a journey of release with your mom?
Eliza Madrigal: kind of a deep question to ask at the end/afterglow of session... but curious
Catrinamonblue Resident: mmmm good question
Catrinamonblue Resident: to be honest I think it was the separation from my ex that changed me...
Catrinamonblue Resident: shook me out of all my preconceived notions of myself and my relationships with the world....

--BELL--

Catrinamonblue Resident: I had though of emailing my mom shortly after the separation but didn't, now I regret that. I think perhaps I might have been better able to listen to her
Eliza Madrigal: makes sense... hard not to second guess
Eliza Madrigal: or, it might have made it harder...
Eliza Madrigal: when i had a hard time and reached out to my mom and she wasn't 'there' it was pretty tough, even though I already knew she wouldn't be... 

Catrinamonblue Resident: I think for myaself and my mom it was more that I couldn't understand her than she couldn't understand me, but that may be nostalgia speaking
Eliza Madrigal: mmm
Eliza Madrigal: thanks... sorry to pry
Catrinamonblue Resident: after she died I came upon her therapy notes that she had requested.... made me think a lot, no worry about prying :) I'm an open book
Eliza Madrigal: therapy notes, wow
Catrinamonblue Resident: I wouldn't let the rest of the family see them, I shredded them. very private stuff... but I couldn't help but read them, to try to understand her
Catrinamonblue Resident: maybe that's why I have such a softer version of her now
Eliza Madrigal: :) then you are the one who needed to see them
Eliza Madrigal: beautiful
Catrinamonblue Resident: :) yes perhaps

Eliza Madrigal: I can hardly bear to read my own journals... can't imagine someone reading therapy notes :) most intimate... but sacred ground for you and she in the end
Catrinamonblue Resident: I tend to pry :) I re-read my own journals a lot... I have a fascination to know why people do what they do
Eliza Madrigal: does it help? I burned all my early journals... actually each time I move on I tend to ...
Eliza Madrigal: but I think I will keep my latest batch
Catrinamonblue Resident: for me it does... my memory is very selective ;)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: it reminds me where I was in mindset and I can I'm not sure how to say... re imagine? what I was and how others were? to more deeply understand myself?
Eliza Madrigal: that's what one hope of journals... so if you are able to put yourself back there and hear again, must be quite powerful
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes and no, sometimes I was a very silly girl ;)
Eliza Madrigal: I tend to get jumbled when I do that, although... also after separation there were times when I found notes of things I thought were only recent... only to see they'd been going on a longer time
Eliza Madrigal: silly girl :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: ah, sigh
Eliza Madrigal: :)))

Catrinamonblue Resident: I should prob go, need to phone that boy and get him home for supper :)
Eliza Madrigal is catching aph's melancholy, better walk doggo
Eliza Madrigal: thanks for lingering :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :) anytime
Catrinamonblue Resident: go walk :) one of my fav things :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)) just as the sun sets...
Eliza Madrigal: perfect timing
Catrinamonblue Resident: awesome time for pics :)
Eliza Madrigal: have a lovely evening
Catrinamonblue Resident: you too :)