The Guardian for this meeting was Agatha Macbeth. The comments are by Agatha Macbeth.

Bruce Mowbray: 's current display-name is "Bruce".
--BELL--
Bleu Oleander: 's current display-name is "Bleu".
Bleu Oleander: hey Bruce
Bleu Oleander: hi Raffi
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Bleu. Hi, Raffi.
Raffila Millgrove: hey Bruce, Hi Bleu
Bruce Mowbray: Mick cometh.
Bleu Oleander: Hiya Mick
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Mick.
Mickorod Renard: hiya
Raffila Millgrove: hi Mick
Mickorod Renard: howz u all didlin?
Bleu Oleander: good, u?
Mickorod Renard: yes good thanks
Bruce Mowbray: Actually, since you asked, I've been ill for a week.... so I'm way behind in the reading.
Mickorod Renard: ouch Bruce
Raffila Millgrove: oh sorry to hear. hope you are feeling better Bruce.
Mickorod Renard: nothin too serious I hope?
Bruce Mowbray: Yeah, vestibular neuronitis.... but it's getting better....
Raffila Millgrove: btw where are we supposed to be.. in the reading?
Raffila Millgrove: which chapter?
Bruce Mowbray: 5? or 6?
Mickorod Renard: not sure what that is Bruce..sounds complex
Bruce Mowbray: just a sec... I'll give you a link.
Bruce Mowbray: http://www.merckmanuals.com/home/ear...lar-neuronitis
Mickorod Renard: i have read the bit re augustine no 4 I think
Bruce Mowbray: 4 -- Oh good, I've read that far.
Mickorod Renard: no, number 5 actually
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, 5.
Mickorod Renard: was good, i liked this chapter
Bruce Mowbray: (have't read that yet, so will politely listen).
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, aggers.
Mickorod Renard: parhaps we had better wait a few mins
Bleu Oleander: brf
Mickorod Renard: Hiya ags
Agatha Macbeth: Evening all
Agatha Macbeth: Yay good cushion
Mickorod Renard: glad u didnt mix the time up
Bruce Mowbray: Aph cometh.
Agatha Macbeth: I had to keep my eye on it
Mickorod Renard: sorry i couldnt make last Thurday
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Mickorod Renard: Thursday
Mickorod Renard: i was at a vampire burlesque show
Bruce Mowbray: omg
Agatha Macbeth: Thought so
Mickorod Renard: :)
Agatha Macbeth: As you do
Aphrodite Macbain: 's current display-name is "Aph".
Agatha Macbeth: And here's Aphie
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Aph.
Raffila Millgrove: oh ok. i am up to date, just finishing chapter 6.
Mickorod Renard: yeh, the stripper with the hoop la's was good
Mickorod Renard: Hi aph
Aphrodite Macbain: Happy BIrthday Aggers
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi
Agatha Macbeth: Happy birthday Aph
Raffila Millgrove: oh it's your birthday. yay!!!!!
Mickorod Renard: oh yes, happy b day
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks
Agatha Macbeth: Yesterday actually
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Bruce Mowbray: Aph' bd was yesterday.
Mickorod Renard: have I missed someones
Aphrodite Macbain: 2 scorpios
Mickorod Renard: erk
Aphrodite Macbain: :-) I'll be gentle
Agatha Macbeth: Two for the price of one
Bruce Mowbray: Happy Birthday aggers!
Mickorod Renard: Sorry aph, I think I did Ags
Agatha Macbeth: Hehe
Mickorod Renard: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Are we A&Eing?
Mickorod Renard: yes, why not
Mickorod Renard: i have a report of sorts,,should we be stuck
Agatha Macbeth: Well let's start with you then Micko
Bruce Mowbray listens carefully
Bleu Oleander: ok back ... sorry
Agatha Macbeth: Unless anyone else wants to go 1st?
Mickorod Renard: but i dont know how many can comment if folks are not up to speed yet
Raffila Millgrove: i think there is 4 or 5 of us?
Mickorod Renard: however, my reports usually miss the plot
Bleu Oleander: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: cool
Mickorod Renard: ok,,I will paste it if u like
Agatha Macbeth: Miss Scarlet did it I think
Bleu Oleander: with the candlestick
Mickorod Renard: I enjoyed this chapter partly due to it having a tangiable story line and much factual content re Augustine's life. I found myself drifting into self reflection at times. I recalled my feelings about my son and my mixed emotions due to having a role of father and mother. On the one hand I recognized his coming into physical maturity and encouraging him to date girls yet at the same time the recognition that he was no longer my baby and in fact he was becoming more like the wolf that wants to take over the pack (ie the threat)
Mickorod Renard: I also reflected on how I spoke to him saying something like ' remember, I have lived and made all the mistakes you are likely to make. You can save yourself a lot of grief if you talk and listen to me and learn from my mistakes' . Yet he still wanted to do it all himself..and not listen to the slightest hint or suggestion from me (just as I had with my father)
--BELL--
Agatha Macbeth: Bless him
Mickorod Renard: I reflected on Augustine and his mothers moment of 'enlightenment(maybe)' and my own moments when one feels so profoundly aware of such a special state and blessed and at one with the universe and yet so separate from everything other than spiritual. But along with that comes the return to normality, responsibilities and drudgery of every day life and aches and pains. The yearning for that state and yet the attachment to what one has created for oneself and not wanting to let it go. And finally. I wondered about what this chapter said about Adam and Eve..I am not sure.
Aphrodite Macbain: wonderful MIck
Mickorod Renard: done
Aphrodite Macbain: beautifully said
Mickorod Renard: ty
Raffila Millgrove: lovely
Bruce Mowbray: Didn't "the father" (i.e., Jehovah) also give advice to Adam and Eve that they didn't heed?
Bleu Oleander: nice!
Mickorod Renard: yes bruce, I think its so typical of everyones life in many ways
Bruce Mowbray nods, agrees.
Bruce Mowbray listens
Raffila Millgrove: and as anyone with adult children.. knows... it's very painful to realize one day .. that they will make their mistakes.. often the same ones you made and nothing you can say to them.. will stop them.. they have to learn by themsevles, it is the hardest part of being the parent of an adult..that helplessness .. to only stand by and watch.
Aphrodite Macbain: I gather sons are worse than daughters- who are more obedient and prefer to stay close to the parent
Bleu Oleander: I think this chapter sets the background for Augustine's interpretation of the A & E story and the importance of the story being considered "real"
Raffila Millgrove: when they are little you can protect them. when they are big you cannot. it is very hard to watch it.
Mickorod Renard: well said Bleu, I wondered where it was going
Mickorod Renard: that is so true Raffi
Aphrodite Macbain: "real"Blue? Who wants it to be real?
Bleu Oleander: back then Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: Didn't people take it literally anyway?
Raffila Millgrove: That was the emphasis of that chapter... Augustine's firm conclusion that the story of A and E was real.. literal.. and his steering the whole church that way.
Bleu Oleander: was thought if not real, then how do we determine what is real with the rest of the story?
Raffila Millgrove: no the didn't. not everyone. not all the scholars took it literally. many did not.
Bleu Oleander: domino effect
Aphrodite Macbain: I know. I just wondered who Augustine's reader was intended to be?
Raffila Millgrove: he prevailed over the others. his viewpoint.
Agatha Macbeth: Mick probably
Bleu Oleander: yes
Bleu Oleander: ha!
Mickorod Renard: I wonder whether the literal was meant to mean that it is a true story of most peoples lives
Aphrodite Macbain: nods-
Mickorod Renard: just a thought
Bleu Oleander: I think they were still trying to figure out where humans came from
Aphrodite Macbain: Christ spoke in metaphors and analogies to make his points
Agatha Macbeth: They didn't know?
Bruce Mowbray: "real" doesn't mean the same thing as "literal," though. "A true story of most people's lives" is "real" but not necessarily literal.. . .
Raffila Millgrove: there was such a determination that there be only one god. which I always find so cojmpletely strange.. when there were so obviously.. two. a father and a son. two very different gods.. not even dragging in the HOly spirit concept.
Bleu Oleander: he was much later than Genesis
Mickorod Renard: was it said by augustine that he was seeing how ambrose was reading the bible in a certain way?
Raffila Millgrove: but that is offsides. the argument was over good/evil.
Mickorod Renard: Ah that is true Bruce
Bleu Oleander: more literal back then
Aphrodite Macbain: There were many gods who were worshipped at that time
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Aph.... so the point is obedience to One God.
Aphrodite Macbain: what is unusual is that this is a single god with 3 parts
Raffila Millgrove: just mention that as a personal comment. that the religionhas two gods even tho it is constantly demanding a belief in only one.
Bleu Oleander: even Augustine didn't start out as Christian ... him mother wished that for him
Bruce Mowbray: That was an invention of the 4th century church.
Raffila Millgrove: right.
Bruce Mowbray: Council of Nicea.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Raffila Millgrove: oh i wanted to ask youguys a question.
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Mickorod Renard: yes?
Aphrodite Macbain: I've always liked the idea of the Romans' household gods...
Bruce Mowbray: Oh yes!
Aphrodite Macbain: listens
Bruce Mowbray loves gods all over the house.
Agatha Macbeth: Makes a change from squirrels
Aphrodite Macbain: :-) Like the Hindu faith gods with many purposes
Bruce Mowbray: For SURE!
Bruce Mowbray: Me too, Aph.
Mickorod Renard: in a way the catholic followers often have many saints for every occassion
Raffila Millgrove: those that read... the section quoting Augustine's story of his experience with his mother.. the lifiting up. How the author kept saying that the translation paled compared to the original. it made me wish I could read the original... and I wondered why he said that twice.. he seemsed to determined that we understand.. how amazing (from a literary viewpoint)... the passage .. was written by augustine. seemed like he suddenly went into his role as literary editoir. of which is is one of top in the world. (the author)
Raffila Millgrove: did you notice that. what did you think?
Agatha Macbeth: Don't all shout at once
Bleu Oleander: translations don't always do justice to emotional writing
Mickorod Renard: I cant say i remember that even tho i read it today
Raffila Millgrove: but i thought it interesting.. that he lost it.. he lost his role as commentator and became a literary teacher/critic. It was interesting to me. It really must be an amazing piece of writing in the original.
Mickorod Renard: I remember the author saying that about a certain passage and I must admit how eloquent augustine came over
Mickorod Renard: yes raffi, he did
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder what language he spoke in. Latin? Aramaic?
Bleu Oleander: I'm thinking greek?
Mickorod Renard: me too
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Bruce Mowbray: Me too, Bleu.
Mickorod Renard: it did say it hadnt been translated into latin by then
Bleu Oleander: but yes, maybe Latin
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes- latin
Bleu Oleander: in any case ... not english :)
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Mickorod Renard: he he
Aphrodite Macbain: written in Latin between AD 397 and 400.
--BELL--
Mickorod Renard: there was that other wierd stuff too,,the Persian
Aphrodite Macbain: Farsi
Agatha Macbeth: Bless you
Bleu Oleander: also many people couldn't read then and so the spoken word sounds better
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Mickorod Renard: manichees
Agatha Macbeth: Tura :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi Tura
Bleu Oleander: hi Tura :)
Aphrodite Macbain: that's a religion, not a language
Tura Brezoianu: clocks :(
Agatha Macbeth: Yeh
Raffila Millgrove: He writes: "(Augustine) then attempted to conjure up in an astonishing,unbroken sentence of 184 words, a sentence of which any English translation is a pale disjointed reflection"
Aphrodite Macbain: ah yes- Europeans are an hour earlier
Mickorod Renard: yes, he was an interested party before he turned christain
Bleu Oleander: US changes next sunday btw
Aphrodite Macbain: so does Canada
Agatha Macbeth: But not Arizona?
Aphrodite Macbain: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Or Hawaii
Bleu Oleander: AZ never changes :)
Aphrodite Macbain: half an hour earlier in Newfoundland
Agatha Macbeth: Clever people
Mickorod Renard: But it was an interesting chapter when one see's his passage through life
Bleu Oleander: sun is always out here LOL
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Bleu Oleander: agree Mick
Agatha Macbeth: You must get ours too
Mickorod Renard: If we can get up to date with our reading..no pressure,,then we may make more on Thursday
Raffila Millgrove: I mention this because .. i mention earlier... how did this one man... manage to overrule all the others who were... presenting a different view.. taking a non literal view. or promoting the idea of equal evil and good. he beat them all back and I think that the author is giving us a clue.. that it was partly due to his eloquence. in writing.
Bleu Oleander: I think, if you're interested, the "confessions" is an interesting read ... hard to get through but amazing for its time
Aphrodite Macbain: I will try and catch up Mick. LIfe has been a bit crazy for me
Bleu Oleander: that's a good question Raffi
Raffila Millgrove: he shaped as did Paul .... the whole future ahead of him.... with his power to convince others.
Mickorod Renard: for sure Aph..and as I say,,no pressure
Aphrodite Macbain: Augustine wrote the first confessional novel- started a trend
Raffila Millgrove: that is what I am referring to here. he set the course.
Bleu Oleander: similar to a question one might ask about Martin Luther
Aphrodite Macbain: yes Raffi
Bleu Oleander: (now reading his bio)
Aphrodite Macbain: oh?
Aphrodite Macbain: what's it like?
Raffila Millgrove: because we didn't live in any of these men's time.... we can't know why they were so successful. I am thinking it was Augustines power to write so well.
Mickorod Renard: well, he said that the bible lacked the ..not his words,,the panach of cicero and the likes
Bleu Oleander: tomorrow is 500 yr anniversary of 95 theses
Bruce Mowbray: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August..._Rome.2C_Milan
Aphrodite Macbain: the bible was written by many writers
Mickorod Renard: but maybe with his way of writing he added some style
Mickorod Renard: to the idea
Bleu Oleander: and his preaching
Raffila Millgrove: not taliinga bout the Bible here APH.
Aphrodite Macbain: well, he said that the bible lacked the ..not his words,,the panach of cicero and the likes
Raffila Millgrove: talking about.. why did Augustine prevail? a gainst many others of his same time.. in pushing the one god, the Adam and Eve story as literal.
Aphrodite Macbain: I was referring to that
Mickorod Renard: no, but his circle of influencial folk would have been connected to him
Mickorod Renard: and in this he would have effected them
Bleu Oleander: yes
Mickorod Renard: or infected them
Mickorod Renard: he he
Raffila Millgrove: but he was sitting in Africa.
Mickorod Renard: he was back n forth a bit but had friends in high up places
Raffila Millgrove: on his bishop throne in N. Africa. but i guess he was very busy .. writing letters. the author says he was all day dictating letters to his circle.
Aphrodite Macbain: But he moved to Italy
Bleu Oleander: just think if there was internet back then
Aphrodite Macbain: He also had a huge influence on Thomas Acquinas
Bleu Oleander: and on Martin Luther
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Mickorod Renard: thats odd..as he was more protistant yes?
Aphrodite Macbain: It helped that Constantine also supported the movement
Bleu Oleander: Augustine's ideas of treating the bible literally influenced Luther's idea of truth being in the original source texts
Aphrodite Macbain: the Protestants came later
Bleu Oleander: just read the book!
Mickorod Renard: i wonder how much it mattered whether the story was literal or not,,in the eyes of most folk?
Bleu Oleander: now or then?
Mickorod Renard: both I guess
Aphrodite Macbain: Good question
Bleu Oleander: more so then I think
Raffila Millgrove: wowI did not know that Martin Luther changed his own name and his son's....
Bleu Oleander: but a fair amount of folks think more literally even now in US
Mickorod Renard: even now folk are happy to entertain the idea that adam and Eve may have been alien subjects
Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps it people are more likely to follow the morals from a believable story
Raffila Millgrove: his son was called Michael and he was five when his father changed his own name and that of his son. Some family still called the child Mike. intersting.
Bleu Oleander: they didn't know about evolution back then
Aphrodite Macbain: just many begats
Raffila Millgrove: that was Martin LUther King. sorry left that out.
Bleu Oleander: good book, "Martin Luther, Renegade and Prophet" by L. Roper
Raffila Millgrove: he renamed himself and his son after Martin Luther.
Raffila Millgrove: when the kid was five.
Aphrodite Macbain: which MArtin LUther?
Bleu Oleander: lots of books on him because of the 500 yr anniversary
Raffila Millgrove: Martin Luther King. to honor Martin Luther the original
Aphrodite Macbain: ah
Raffila Millgrove: and even changes his own sons name. who was named MIchael.
--BELL--
Raffila Millgrove: that is so weird. not to know that.
Mickorod Renard: wheras i apreciate evolution and see that it was /is so very prevelant in natural history..and technology...the big q is still out there when it comes to how we got to out present human form I think
Raffila Millgrove: but i didn't.
Agatha Macbeth: Me either
Mickorod Renard: *our
Raffila Millgrove: esp as the guy was a Baptist. just so weird. they nevermention it.
Mickorod Renard: some in the field suggest big changes came about by Mutation..perhaps from cataclsmic events
Raffila Millgrove: the other strain of humans ( I foget officialname) was still prevelant on earth and it is said that.. our ancestor humans mated with them.
Bleu Oleander: fairly strong evidence of that Mick
Mickorod Renard: neanderthals
Raffila Millgrove: that both species lived at same time...for awhile.
Mickorod Renard: scuse spelling
Bleu Oleander: there were many different human-ish species
Bleu Oleander: we each probably have some neanderthal genes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e0qYP_PTlY

Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Bleu Oleander: 2 - 4 % or so
Mickorod Renard: but there is still a missing link from ape to human I think
Agatha Macbeth: Some more than others
Aphrodite Macbain: homo erectus
Aphrodite Macbain: s
Raffila Millgrove: https://news.nationalgeographic.com/...bred-dna-gene/
Bruce Mowbray thinks his jeans look Neanderthalish.
Bleu Oleander: apes and humans split from an older species 8 million years ago
Aphrodite Macbain: there were a number of species of homo erectus but most died out
Agatha Macbeth: Sorry dear my fault
Raffila Millgrove: supposedly that missing link was the ancient ancestor of both Neanderthal and homo sapiens.
Bruce Mowbray: more of a "bush" than a "tree" of links - missing or otherwise.
Mickorod Renard: its so much easier to think that the gap between our presumed inteligence compared to animals,,is by some higher order plan
Raffila Millgrove: yes .. i think they have found five so far.. species of homo erectus.
Bleu Oleander: https://iho.asu.edu/
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Aphrodite Macbain: Nods at Raffi
Mickorod Renard: and ...every man blames his wife for everything that goes wrong,,thats natural
Bleu Oleander: http://www.becominghuman.org/
Aphrodite Macbain: all these web sites!
Agatha Macbeth: At least he doesn't blame the neanderthals
Mickorod Renard: he he
Bleu Oleander: that's a great site for latest research
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Bleu
Bleu Oleander: the timeline is fun
Mickorod Renard: worst thing is that I dont think my brain can take on board any more,,its full of motorbike stuff
Agatha Macbeth: Va va voom
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Just absorb it gradually
Bleu Oleander: ha! Mick
Aphrodite Macbain: It will settle like silt
Tura Brezoianu: I wonder how Christians who accept the evidence of the fossils interpret Genesis?
Bleu Oleander: there's always room for more
Raffila Millgrove: what a great website Bleu. ty. all the research they are doing. amazing.
Aphrodite Macbain: There are still many naysayers
Bleu Oleander: good question Tura
Agatha Macbeth: Nay
Bleu Oleander: lots of naysayers in US
Aphrodite Macbain: Naysayers who believe we were made in 2 days
Aphrodite Macbain: So odd
Bruce Mowbray: took nine months for moi.
Mickorod Renard: I always thought of the christian way..in my personal way of thought..as like a formatting..to present an order..but never taken all as too ridgid
Aphrodite Macbain: me too
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Raffila Millgrove: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: formatting of what Mick?
Aphrodite Macbain: our homo sapiens bodies?
Mickorod Renard: a formatting of life to exist amongst others
Bruce Mowbray: Like a template? A suggested pattern?
Mickorod Renard: yes
Bleu Oleander: the evolutionary story is so wonderful ... a story of a first couple pales by comparison IMHO
Bruce Mowbray nods. agrees.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes I agree Bleu
Aphrodite Macbain: But people cling to the old story ...not sure why
Bruce Mowbray: I am continually amazed and inspired by the evolutionary vision.
Bleu Oleander: for religious reasons I think
Aphrodite Macbain: I suppose it is lack of willingness to contradict the Bible
Mickorod Renard: I agree Bleu, but the idea that we developed from primeaval slime is a big one,,and it doesnt present a picture that relates to me
Aphrodite Macbain: which is considered a holy book divinely inspired
Bleu Oleander: LOL, we're a long way from primeval slime!
Mickorod Renard: as long as you dont tell anyone..i like the idea that some star trek folk put us here
Bruce Mowbray: Sorry, good people, but I must be away and scraping up supper. May all have a splendid All Hallow's Eve!
Aphrodite Macbain: Billions of years ago so not so amazing how we changed
Mickorod Renard: bye Bruce,,go well
Raffila Millgrove: Excuse me please. gotta rushout a few minutes early. ty for hosting us. Agatha.
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Brucie
Bleu Oleander: come to Riddle's costume party tomorrow
Mickorod Renard: bye raffi
Bleu Oleander: gotta go too
Agatha Macbeth: YW dear
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Raffi
Mickorod Renard: bye Bleu
Bleu Oleander: take care all
Tura Brezoianu: One way of accomodating Genesis to evolution would be to hold that the "dust" out of which God made Adam was Homo Erectus. God (or aliens) uplifted a specimen to sentience.
Mickorod Renard: and u
Aphrodite Macbain: time tpo poof
Agatha Macbeth: Hour always goes so quick
Mickorod Renard: I like that idea Tura
Mickorod Renard: bye Aph
Tura Brezoianu: btw, I can't be at the other meetings this week, am travelling
--BELL--
Aphrodite Macbain: bye all homo sapiens friends
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Mickorod Renard: ok Tura, no worries
Agatha Macbeth: Bye homies
Mickorod Renard: have a good trave;l
Aphrodite Macbain: ddust and primeval ooze
Agatha Macbeth: Ooze a clever boy
Agatha Macbeth: You don't jog when you stand up now Mick
Mickorod Renard: yes, we just need to paste over the simplified bits as we progress with our understanding
Agatha Macbeth: Just drink instead
Mickorod Renard: I think I got over that
Agatha Macbeth: Hah
Mickorod Renard: arthritus set in
Tura Brezoianu: goodnight Ag, Mick
Agatha Macbeth: Good old Arthur
Mickorod Renard: nite Tura
Agatha Macbeth: TC Tu
Mickorod Renard: thannks Ags
Mickorod Renard: I spoze i better head off
Agatha Macbeth: Have fun with the kids
Mickorod Renard: are u spooking everyone tomorrow?
Agatha Macbeth: No more than usual :p
Mickorod Renard: I have been denied them a bit lately
Agatha Macbeth wonders if that's good or bad
Mickorod Renard: I recon i am being punnished
Mickorod Renard: but its more relaxing
Agatha Macbeth: I can believe it
Mickorod Renard: ok,,I am goin
Agatha Macbeth: When they're young it's non stop
Agatha Macbeth: Have fun
Mickorod Renard: see ya soon
Agatha Macbeth: Love to Morg
Mickorod Renard: kk