2016.02.29 13:00 - TSK: Seeing Without Eyes, Black Box Mind

The Guardian for this "freestyle" TSK meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cat, how is your leap day?
Catrinamonblue Resident: pretty fun :) I bowl Monday afternoons :)
Eliza Madrigal: nice, but don't throw out those strange words at me, lol
Catrinamonblue Resident: ladies league :) lots of fun :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: lol:)
Eliza Madrigal: I like bowling a lot, can only convince the kids to go sometimes, but must be fun with girls group
Catrinamonblue Resident: I had a rough start but bowled a 153, 125 and 173 :)
Eliza Madrigal: Congrats :))
Catrinamonblue Resident: it is :) I also bowl on a sunday night league too :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: ty :)
Eliza Madrigal: there are a lot of fancy alleys lately
Eliza Madrigal: but snack prices correlate
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Allo Agatita
Agatha Macbeth: Bonsoir mes amis
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hey Aggers :)
Eliza Madrigal: pretty top
Agatha Macbeth: These damn cushions
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Oh had it ages
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I thought I might be perfectly dressed for these cushions but alas
Agatha Macbeth: You have a Japanese mermaid look about you
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Flies too eh...impressive
Catrinamonblue Resident: nice :)
Eliza Madrigal: made by the same person who made the ice skates
Agatha Macbeth: A mermaid on skates, now there's a thought
Eliza Madrigal: it is SL after all ;-)
Agatha Macbeth: True that
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe just as well
Agatha Macbeth: NPIRL and all that
Eliza Madrigal: hm?
Agatha Macbeth: Not possible in real life
Eliza Madrigal: oh, yes.....
Eliza Madrigal: ty
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)

Eliza Madrigal: I haven't had a chance to begin the next TSK chapter
Eliza Madrigal: was hoping others would give me some hints and pointers today
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Brucie seemed to think there was still plenty to discuss about this one
Eliza Madrigal: there is
Catrinamonblue Resident: I'm still behind... still in exercise 7
Eliza Madrigal: just from the title, it is quite full
Eliza Madrigal: ah, but feeling good about the explorations now Cat?
Agatha Macbeth: I'm still on excercise 0
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes :)

Agatha Macbeth: Bleuji :)
Bleu Oleander: hiya :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: I just seem to need more time with them.. :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hiya Bleu :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Bleu :)
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: Agatha, maybe you are starting at the end, lol
Agatha Macbeth: Open other end ha
Eliza Madrigal: hah

Agatha Macbeth: Brucie!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce :))
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Bruce :)
Eliza Madrigal: we were just talking about you
Bleu Oleander: hi Bruce :)
Agatha Macbeth: Here da man
Bruce Mowbray: ooops... need to make an adjustment here.... brb!
Eliza Madrigal: ok
Agatha Macbeth: No fish?
Bruce Mowbray: kk,m brb, so I can hear what you're saying :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: And here's our Edie
Bleu Oleander: hi Eden :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Eden :))
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Eden :)
Agatha Macbeth: Bonsoir cherie
Eliza Madrigal: was noticing you've been playing with your yurt ^.^
Agatha Macbeth: Don't answer that :p
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Wol Euler: evening all
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Wol :)
Agatha Macbeth: Wollie ♥
Bleu Oleander: hiya Wol :)
Eden Haiku: Hello all :) Yep, it's a work in progress Eliza :)

Agatha Macbeth: Liz is a mermaidu today
Eliza Madrigal: :) wanted to hydrate while at the pool
Wol Euler: sm
Wol Euler smiles.
Bleu Oleander: :)
Agatha Macbeth: 7sm
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Wol Euler: speaking of hydration, I need some more tea, biab
Eden Haiku: Oh, seeing your tail in the water now :)
Agatha Macbeth: Moi aussi
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Rid
Eliza Madrigal: ^^
Riddle Sideways: hi All
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Riddle :))
Bleu Oleander: hi Riddle :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Riddle :)

Eden Haiku: Drinking almond milk hot chocolate after a stroll on icy sidewalks :)
Bruce Mowbray: Oh my!
Bleu Oleander: sounds good!
Eliza Madrigal: mmm
Eden Haiku: Hi Riddle:)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Riddle Sideways: seeing that the koa socks got much bigger
Eliza Madrigal: but must be careful
Eliza Madrigal grins and flaps her fins
Eliza Madrigal: wow so nice to see you all. I was saying that I've not yet gotten to read this week, so I am hoping for pointers and inspiration here :)
Eliza Madrigal: my head was in computer file organization most of the day.... making space, which does inspire a little bit, but not quite juicy
Wol Euler: nor I :) I was intending to do some reading before the meeting, but I had a nap instead
Bruce Mowbray admires Eliza's lively tail.
Eliza Madrigal: making headspace, Wol :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: defrag naps
Wol Euler: exactly!
Bruce Mowbray: ... errr, LOVELY tail.
Eliza Madrigal: lively is nice too, ty!
Bruce Mowbray: :)

Eliza Madrigal: So Agatha was saying that Bruce mentioned it is a rich chapter
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Bruce Mowbray: very rich.
Eden Haiku: Read it once, remembers very little :)
Eliza Madrigal: the title sounds very APAPB
Eliza Madrigal: The Mind and Origin of Appearance
Bruce Mowbray: Are we still talking about Chap 2 now, or are we goig on to 3?
Bruce Mowbray: kk, 3, then. TY.
Riddle Sideways: on to 3
Eliza Madrigal: could be either, but I was mentioning 3
Bruce Mowbray: yes, 3 is good.
Catrinamonblue Resident: I'm still behind but am comfortable where I am
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Catrinamonblue Resident: I just need more time than others to get there
Bruce Mowbray nods, feels the same way.
Riddle Sideways: nods, feeling the same way
Eliza Madrigal: different time ... after all several of us have read this before and are still taking a while

Catrinamonblue Resident: this is my first time reading :)
Eliza Madrigal: I'm loving the journey though... and poems, inspirations
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Agatha Macbeth: And listening to Edie
Wol Euler nods.
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: one pointer might be still in chapter 2...p 44.... let me see if I can type it out but in meantime chat away ^^
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Blah blah yackity schmackity
Catrinamonblue Resident: yack yack :)
Bruce Mowbray: I would encourage others to make an art piece... It both confused and "informed" my journey.
Eden Haiku: The poetry form you are been using Catrina is very conductive of meaning.
Catrinamonblue Resident: I do plan on it Bruce :)
Bruce Mowbray: Oh great, Cat.
Catrinamonblue Resident: oh ty Eden :)
Bruce Mowbray: I look forward to see it.
Bruce Mowbray: and to Bleu, do you need me to send you "textures" of the two images?
Eliza Madrigal: really nice videos Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: ty.
Eden Haiku: Your poems catch a glimpse and send out lights. And for one moment there, one seems to understand the meaning. a fleeting moment :)
Bleu Oleander: you did Bruce thanks
Bruce Mowbray: kk.
Bleu Oleander: unless you already have them in sl?
Catrinamonblue Resident: :) thanks Eden :)
Bruce Mowbray: I would need to upload them, but I will do that right now and slide them over to you.
Bleu Oleander: I can upload them if you don't have them in sl
Eliza Madrigal: agree....there is an easy playfulness that comes through Cat
Bruce Mowbray: I will upload them for you, np.
Bleu Oleander: ok ty!
Bruce Mowbray: :)


--BELL--


Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bruce Mowbray listens
Agatha Macbeth ponders an easy playfulness that comes throught
Catrinamonblue Resident: it seems once I catch on I get it :)
Agatha Macbeth: Without the t
Catrinamonblue Resident: now to see if I can catch on to the rest :)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Riddle Sideways: seems to be catch-n-release
Catrinamonblue Resident: I do love playing with words but have not been practicing that much
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes Riddle :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: sorry bell :)
Agatha Macbeth: Bell?
Catrinamonblue Resident: it shusshed me :)
Eliza Madrigal blows bubbles

Eden Haiku: I started working from a quote from TSK on 686/2771
Wol Euler: the one you muted, aggers
Eliza Madrigal: oh, Eden?
Agatha Macbeth: Oh that one
Eden Haiku:
 

«Also, suppose that this mind is what we are using to discover the source of any thoughts which we encounter in present time. The source, the mind, may exist even though it cannot discover itself as the source. When we search for the mind—using our minds—we can only find mental events».TSK 686/2771

Eden Haiku: It brought to mind this excerpt from Remembrance of Times Past by Marcel Proust
Bleu Oleander: I was just re-reading that very line Eden :)
Eliza Madrigal: like theoretical physics... can only see the effects of some things posited?
Agatha Macbeth: The man with the cake
Eden Haiku: Here is the quote from Proust
Eliza Madrigal listening :)

Eden Haiku:

"I drink a second mouthful, in which I find nothing more than in the first, a third, which gives me rather less than the second. It is time to stop; the potion is losing its magic. It is plain that the object of my quest, the truth, lies not in the cup but in myself. The tea has called up in me, but does not itself understand, and can only repeat indefinitely with a gradual loss of strength, the same testimony; which I, too, cannot interpret, though I hope at least to be able to call upon the tea for it again and to find it there presently, intact and at my disposal, for my final enlightenment. I put down my cup and examine my own mind. It is for it to discover the truth. But how? What an abyss of uncertainty whenever the mind feels that some part of it has strayed beyond its own borders; when it, the seeker, is at once the dark region through which it must go seeking, where all its equipment will avail it nothing. Seek? More than that: create. It is face to face with something which does not so far exist, to which it alone can give reality and substance, which it alone can bring into the light of day."  Marcel Proust 

Agatha Macbeth: Speaking of tea
Eden Haiku: A pre- tea-party mood :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eden Haiku: More than that: create. It is face to face with something which does not so far exist, to which it alone can give reality and substance, which it alone can bring into the light of day." 
Eliza Madrigal: those excerpts are beautiful together

Eden Haiku: To create seems to me the focus point here :)
Eliza Madrigal: animation
Bleu Oleander: its a great question ... how does the mind investigate the mind?
Eden Haiku: Exactly
Bruce Mowbray: self-reference inevitably leads to paradox, which I love, btw.
Agatha Macbeth: That's if it exists to begin with
Eden Haiku: Do we call "mind" what seems to be the container and the source of thoughts?
Bleu Oleander: well, if the mind is to investigate anything is it necessary that the mind believes it exists?
Catrinamonblue Resident: apologies will brb :)
Bleu Oleander: and when we say the mind, we mean the conscious mind? and what is it that knows its conscious?

Bruce Mowbray: I was fascinated by how the book sort of threads its way through the "physical source" of the mind....
Eliza Madrigal: how so?
Bruce Mowbray looks for page....
Bruce Mowbray: p. 55
Bruce Mowbray:

"So we neither abandon the notion of 'mind' in favor of a problematic reduction to the physical level, or.... accept that it has the inherent limitation of not being able to see itself directly,
Bruce Mowbray: but only the "things" (thoughts) of a different level."
 

Catrinamonblue Resident: back :) reading
Eliza Madrigal: mmm, ty
Wol Euler nods.
Eliza Madrigal: distinctions between stream/s of thoughts, stream/s of events, and underlying source
Eden Haiku: Ok....
Eliza Madrigal: there is a term in buddhism "non-arising", and it has always been a kind of meditation or puzzle for me
Bruce Mowbray: yes, Eliza, and that we are "deceived" by any concept of "source"
Bruce Mowbray: either physical or elsewhere....
Wol Euler listens.
Eden Haiku: non-arising, yes, a very puzzling notion...
Bruce Mowbray: There are LOTS of problems with self-reference.
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Wol Euler: could you say a little about that please?
Wol Euler: (eliza)
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Eliza Madrigal: the phrase used is mostly non-arising of phenomena
Eliza Madrigal: the TSK excerpt I was looking for before is related...
Eliza Madrigal:

"The appearance of 'things' is itself not a limited version or expression of Great Space--it is infinite openness. The infinite, unbiased quality has not been lost in the midst of the appearance of determinate things. From the perspective of Great Space, nothing fundamental has changed."

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: what does that mean in simple words?
Eliza Madrigal: trying...
Eliza Madrigal: as I said, it is a puzzle for me, so working on trying to say...
Bruce Mowbray nods, a puzzle and a paradox.
Bleu Oleander: or is the poetry of language necessary or somehow part of the meaning?
Eden Haiku: waves of the ocean are always different, yet the ocean is always the same? Not exactly that. Trying to understand :)
Eliza Madrigal: my feeling about it is that the sense that we can trace 'effects' or thoughts or events but not mind, is like when we say there is subconscious... we only really have evidence through practicality
Eliza Madrigal: physicists can make predictions that are theoretical only based on movements around things
Eliza Madrigal: and measures that are imperfectly defined

Wol Euler: I think it is saying that the mind is a "black box", we see thoughts coming out of it but not how or from what they are formed
Bruce Mowbray: Once you "go with" his notions about "space" . . . and arrive at "everything is space"..... then what could a discrete source be?
Eliza Madrigal: but intuitively I like the ocean analogy
Bruce Mowbray agrees with Wol.
Bruce Mowbray: Ideas simply emerge - sort of pop up and disappear.
Bruce Mowbray: They are not "caused."
Eden Haiku: likes the "black box" example
Eliza Madrigal: yes that's good.... was also thinking of the zen story of the "is it the flag that moves or mind that moves?"
Catrinamonblue Resident: me too
Agatha Macbeth: Think by not thinking
Bruce Mowbray: (How would THAT look in a piece of art?)
Bruce Mowbray: And the last line of that koan, Eliza, is "The mind moves."
Eden Haiku: Lots of inspiration for our art projects :)
Eliza Madrigal: which is sort of like saying there is creation we are adding? taste we are responsible for cocreating?
Bruce Mowbray: or, maybe I'm not remember it ... OH. You already said it, sorry.
Eliza Madrigal: considering the Proust :)
Bruce Mowbray: I thought it was "Flag or wind" -- neither, it is mind.
Eden Haiku: Back to 'what is the mind ". Wind?
Eliza Madrigal: thanks Bruce, yes that's more detailed

Catrinamonblue Resident: dizzying conversation :)
Eden Haiku: It is Cat :)
Bruce Mowbray agrees with Cat, but is not daunted.
Eliza Madrigal: I mean, the bottom line is that we don't know and must not pretend we do while also working with the 'material'?
Bleu Oleander: is the mind a word we use to refer to the collection of our mental images and thoughts?
Eden Haiku: My mind (whatever it is) is swirling...
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I find that I need to pull myself away from philosophical arguments -- just let the text be the text.
Riddle Sideways: oh, like that bleu
Eliza Madrigal: what is aware of being aware?
Eliza Madrigal: or just awareness
Bruce Mowbray: awareness - with no separations....
Riddle Sideways: one step behind yourself
Eden Haiku: ah!
Bleu Oleander: could awareness merely be a model we create for attention?
Catrinamonblue Resident: me me me pick me :)
Riddle Sideways: for convenience
Eliza Madrigal: we may all have slightly diff sensibilities... I think of attention as more directed
Eliza Madrigal: lol Cat
Bruce Mowbray: If you talk for a while with someone who has ADHD, you will learn a lot about "awareness" and focus...
Catrinamonblue Resident: :) the cat pounced :)
Bleu Oleander: attention is directed in a sense
Bruce Mowbray: (by indirection, you find direction out.)
Eliza Madrigal: like gps for mind
Agatha Macbeth: ^.^
Bruce Mowbray: (wonderful analogy).
Eden Haiku: gps for mind: lovely Eliza :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Wol Euler: /dm
Wol Euler smiles.
Bruce Mowbray ponders proprioception.
Riddle Sideways: no GPS, would rather stop and ask directions :)
Eliza Madrigal grins
Catrinamonblue Resident: :-D
Eden Haiku: :)
Eliza Madrigal: wonder what this conversation will sound like 20 years from now
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Riddle Sideways: still wondering about it right now
Bleu Oleander: "what we used to think"
Eliza Madrigal: ((( ))) hah
Eden Haiku: Interesting point a view: years in front of yourself:)
Eden Haiku: one step behing yourself/lightyears in front of yourself
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: *light* seems to be one convergence....

Bruce Mowbray: I've had very few psychedelic experiences, but my most profound one demonstrated (to me) that there is absolutely NO separation between ideas.
Eliza Madrigal: please say more Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: That was about ten years ago, on some VERY powerful pot,
Bruce Mowbray: and I've not done any since.
Eliza Madrigal: frightening?
Riddle Sideways: appreciating Being seeing Being aware of Being's awareness
Bruce Mowbray: A very valuable experience, though.
Bruce Mowbray: Not at all frightening.
Bruce Mowbray: Ideas just flowed like a waterfall of thick syrup.
Riddle Sideways: unless that is a pair-o-ducks
Bruce Mowbray: I could watch them arrive and go over the falls, and even look carefully at them, but everything was a continuum.
Bruce Mowbray: That experience helped me understand some of the concepts in this chapter, actually.
Bleu Oleander: like?
Bruce Mowbray: like no separation between ideas.
Bleu Oleander: what does that mean?
Eliza Madrigal: non-duality?
Bruce Mowbray: which sounds a bit paradoxical, when you remember "space"

--BELL--

Eden Haiku: no gaps says the text I think
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, non-duality, for sure.
Bleu Oleander: everything is one "great idea"?
Bruce Mowbray ponder Parmenides: Everything is ONE thing.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Bleu.
Bleu Oleander: we don't live like everything is one thing tho
Bruce Mowbray: Nope, we surely do not.
Bleu Oleander: we couldn't have this conversation if everything was one idea
Eliza Madrigal: that seems what deep lucid dreaming is for me... I once described it as a blob of lucidity... thick
Bruce Mowbray: I'm also trying to resist using the book's methods (exercises) as a "remedy."
Eliza Madrigal: remedy?
Bruce Mowbray: a sort of therapy -- trying not to do that.
Bleu Oleander: the book presents many many ideas
Bruce Mowbray: a way of getting off the roller coaster.
Eliza Madrigal: indeed, so many
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Bleu Oleander: so not all one idea then? or at least not practical to have only one idea?

Bruce Mowbray: Who reported that her book looked like it had been in a war zone?
Bleu Oleander: me!!
Bruce Mowbray: Bleu, I think!
Bruce Mowbray: Yes!
Bruce Mowbray: Mine too!
Bleu Oleander: and getting worse! or better depending on how you look at it
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Wol Euler: richer, perhaps
Bleu Oleander: indeed
Eliza Madrigal: loved like Velveteen Rabbit ;-)
Wol Euler: like vines growing around a tree
Eden Haiku: Mine has vanished into Great Space and I'm now reading a digital version :)
Wol Euler: yes :)
Eliza Madrigal: I have two books and a kindle version, plus I'm recording my own audio, lol
Eliza Madrigal: maybe a little overboard, but each helpful in its way
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eden Haiku: Ah yes, remembers you saying that. Must be something to record!
Eliza Madrigal: specially with dog barks
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Bruce Mowbray:

"After we become accustomed to this freedom from constant bookkeeping, more subtle 'knowing' capacities may emerge which are not indexed into any 'self.' " -- p 56
 

Eden Haiku: Very helpful to have the dog's point of view!
Eliza Madrigal: indeed!
Eliza Madrigal: mu
Eliza Madrigal: I bought a few books years ago, to give friends but now hoarding them
Bleu Oleander: actually just following around a dog can be very enlightening
Eliza Madrigal: agree :)
Bleu Oleander: can appreciate the dog's "umwelt"
Eden Haiku: " constant bookeeping": ys, the archives we keep creating in our mind...
Eliza Madrigal: I'll place a link for a video of a wedding filmed by a dog... soooo beautiful
Bleu Oleander: I saw that!
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Eden Haiku: Really :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: I saw that too :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: so cute :)
Eliza Madrigal: well maybe no need, lol but I'll find it anyway :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eden Haiku: I want to see, please post it Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: ok :)))
Bruce Mowbray: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...edding-6888006
Eliza Madrigal: wow you are fast, Bruce!
Riddle Sideways: yes, would like to watch dog videos. getting bored of cat vids
Eden Haiku: Thanks Bruce;)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: ty!

Eden Haiku: How can you get bored with cat videos?
Eden Haiku: They are soooo cuuute!
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: and don't forget goats jumping around in pajamas
Eden Haiku: we kind of drifted away :)
Bleu Oleander: that btw, doesn't give you the dogs point of view ... dog's mind if we could see from it would ... camera doesn't do that
Eden Haiku: which feels good :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)))
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bruce Mowbray ponders fish-view of world.
Eliza Madrigal: heheh
Eden Haiku: Getting a sweater. It's getting cold
Agatha Macbeth: Blub view
Bruce Mowbray: yeppers, Blub-vision.
Eliza Madrigal: I spent probably five minutes giggling that the dog likes me to put mints in my mouth and blow at him
Catrinamonblue Resident: did your sunshine disappear too Eden?
Catrinamonblue Resident: lol Eliza :)
Eden Haiku: it did :(
Eliza Madrigal: that's my life now, haha
Bleu Oleander: my dog loves my toothpaste blows :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Wol Euler: exciting new smells
Eliza Madrigal: haha... and blowdryers....but not vacuums
Bleu Oleander: yes!
Wol Euler: we'd need a different word for that, not "view of the world" but "sniff of the world" or some such
Eden Haiku: vacuums are terrible for cats too :)
Riddle Sideways: face cat likes those smells too
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: they are!
Eliza Madrigal: many cats under beds at vacuum time
Eden Haiku: 'sniff of the world" yes, Wol :)
Eliza Madrigal: sigh... I have to go, have an appt soon

Bruce Mowbray: .... but TSK is going beyond sense-experience of the world.... or is it?
Bruce Mowbray: kk, thank, Eliza!
Eden Haiku: Seeing without eyes :)
Riddle Sideways: the Wonderful World of Odors
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks*
Eliza Madrigal: thanks and sorry for letting us lose our focus today, OR, you're welcome, haha
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: tahnk you eliza and all
Eliza Madrigal: have fun <3
Wol Euler: may your day go swimmingly
Wol Euler: ah too slow
Catrinamonblue Resident: bye guys :)
Eden Haiku: Have fun, thank you :)
Bleu Oleander: bye y'all
Bruce Mowbray hopes sald will "emerge" for supper, so I don't have to scrape it tonight.
Eden Haiku: Bye Catrina, bye everyone:)
Bruce Mowbray: salad*
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, everyone.
Wol Euler: goodnight all
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Riddle Sideways: by All