2017.07.03 13:00 - The Importance of Self Reflection

The Guardian for this  The Wisdom of Lived Experience - Views from Psychoanalysis, Neuroscience, Philosophy and Metaphysics meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.

Mickorod Renard: helloooo
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya MIck!
Aphrodite Macbain: Just trying on hats :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: Gtsy
Mickorod Renard: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Have a cushion
Aphrodite Macbain: Home from your travels?
Mickorod Renard: yes ty
Aphrodite Macbain: Do you speak other languages than English?
Mickorod Renard: not really...I lived in France for about 9 years
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Bruce!
Mickorod Renard: so I know a fair bit of French but I never spoke much to people
Mickorod Renard: Hi Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: Wow then u must speak French
Aphrodite Macbain: oops
Aphrodite Macbain: chat lag
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Aph and Mick.
Mickorod Renard: not really...I was very..erm..reclusive
Bruce Mowbray listens to Mick talking about France.
Aphrodite Macbain: Nice landing Tura!
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Tura.
Aphrodite Macbain: How are you?
Mickorod Renard: My son went to French school tho..so he sounds like a French person
Mickorod Renard: Hi Tura
Aphrodite Macbain: nice
Tura Brezoianu: hi all
Aphrodite Macbain: Can he use it in his work?
Mickorod Renard: he went to a good school too so he speaks quite a high French
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Bruce Mowbray regrets not having taken French in high school and college.
Mickorod Renard: no, he never uses it other than chatting to old school friends on Facebook
Aphrodite Macbain: Interesting how language can really brand you
Mickorod Renard: yes, I was branded a savage as my French was so bad
Bruce Mowbray: That's one of the central themes of Trevor Noah's book --- that language can brand one. and it's why his mother taught him the importance of language when he was growing up in South Africa
Mickorod Renard: oh!
Aphrodite Macbain: I studied French even in grade school so it's nearly automatic for me, although I don’t use it very much living in English Canada so my subjunctive tense leaves a lot to be desired. :-)
Mickorod Renard: I think in the uk it is very relaxed now
Aphrodite Macbain:
Mickorod Renard: ah the ol becherelle book
Aphrodite Macbain: What's the title of the book Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: (In English it's easy just to make your verbs plural in order to "go" subjunctive. e.g. "If I WERE you, ....")
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Bruce Mowbray: Something like "Born Illegal..."
Aphrodite Macbain: not so easy in French and Italian...
Bruce Mowbray: I'll look it up.
Aphrodite Macbain: I keep thinking of the phrase in my Fair Lady: how one English man speaks make the other man despise him
Mickorod Renard: yes that’s so true…and French grammar goes on forever
Bleu Oleander: hi y'all :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Bleu
Aphrodite Macbain: still frying in the heat?
Bleu Oleander: not quite as bad :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I've been hearing weather forecasts about you
Bruce Mowbray: "Born a Crime": http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2...3-born-a-crime
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks Bruce

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Cat. Hi, Bleu.
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Cat!
Bleu Oleander: hi Cat :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi all sorry to be a bit late :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi Cat
Aphrodite Macbain: you're right on time Cat
Mickorod Renard: we haven’t started yet
Aphrodite Macbain: No.
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: But we can now
Mickorod Renard: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I enjoyed this section of the book
Bruce Mowbray: I did also, Aph.
Aphrodite Macbain: Does anyone have any comments, questions or reports?
Mickorod Renard: I enjoyed the positiveness
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Bruce Mowbray: Well, it IS very important to remember what Maxine means by "hallucination...."
Mickorod Renard: I had a report on my negativness of not understanding
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Nods. Do you want to give a report Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: nope.
Bleu Oleander: yes, what does she mean by hallucination?
Aphrodite Macbain: Please go ahead Mick
Bruce Mowbray: She is referring to "internal" knowing that does not come from external sources....
Mickorod Renard: that’s a great point Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps it's more like "internal believing"....
Bruce Mowbray: or feeling.
Mickorod Renard: she touched a bit on that but I was lost as the discussion flowed
Bleu Oleander: yes not clear to me
Bruce Mowbray nods. . . .
Aphrodite Macbain: Does anyone have a report or shall we simply have a conversation?
Mickorod Renard: at one point I was almost sure she said almost all we thought was a hallucination.,,i thought
Bruce Mowbray listens for others' reports.
Mickorod Renard: but i must have been wrong
Catrinamonblue Resident: I don't have a report though I did read it :)
Bleu Oleander: what does that mean, that all thought is hallucination?
Mickorod Renard: I can give mine.,,but it’s not very informative
Bruce Mowbray: I don't have report either.
Aphrodite Macbain: Please go ahead Mick
Bruce Mowbray listens for Mick's report.
Mickorod Renard: ok
Tura Brezoianu: Nor me.
Tura Brezoianu listens
Mickorod Renard: I read the section but as usual found it hard to swallow as a self-standing lump of information. i guess it must be my lack of academic ability or even just being too long away from learning.
Mickorod Renard: I liked the references to self-reflection which I have always valued albeit occasionally at my cost.
Mickorod Renard: i was frustrated strangely enough by the very last word ' de-differentiation' and sat asking myself what the heck that meant…even though i know we have used that word before.
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Mickorod Renard: As a whole i felt that i could relate to some of this section but failed to be able to reproduce it in my own narrative which i would have preferred as that would have proved to myself I had understood it. done
Aphrodite Macbain: psychiatrists aren't the best wordsmiths
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Mick
Bruce Mowbray: (de-differentiate: to see only a limited, rigid, literal view -- only one way of looking at things. . . )
Mickorod Renard: thanks Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: Do you want to say more Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: yw. I hope I'm right with that definition. I'm not un-differentiated about it.
Bruce Mowbray: nope.
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Mickorod Renard: I think as time has passed I have become much more flexible in outlook and introspection. If that’s a word
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I got a sense that is normal to hallucinate
Aphrodite Macbain: we all do it
Aphrodite Macbain: It keeps us balanced
Mickorod Renard: I was hoping someone else would explain this section to me
Bruce Mowbray: I enjoyed reading Maxine's take on things I would consider "mythical" -- like "Onward for God and country...."
Aphrodite Macbain: but we should recognize that we do allucinate
Aphrodite Macbain: h
Bruce Mowbray: 'allucinting is a cockney way of doing it, perhaps.

Mickorod Renard: he he
Aphrodite Macbain: I think that meditating is a way of recognizing the hallucinatory walls we build around us
Aphrodite Macbain: I found it very reassuring!
Bruce Mowbray: Maxine makes the point that the more awareness we have of our own hallucinatory processes and their agreement with external reality, the better.
Aphrodite Macbain: where did Maxine talk about mythical exactly?
Bruce Mowbray: She did not. That's my take on what she said about rigid "beliefs."
Aphrodite Macbain: ah
Mickorod Renard: this section in a way suggested to me that all is good ..i.e. exposure to set backs,,.i.e. trauma...providing one has the ability to manage it…for eg self -reflective functions?
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes- it was reassuring wasn't it?

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: like, if one despairs about the self or has a lot of self-doubt, one might cling tightly to more "concrete" ways of seeing one's self and the world.
Aphrodite Macbain: I found it interesting to see how when we are faced with something frightening or inexplicable we revert
Bruce Mowbray: .... and at the extreme, one might go for the more basic animal reactiveness of the "lower brain -- bypassing cortical functions altogether.
Aphrodite Macbain: to our basic emotions
Bruce Mowbray: yep.
Aphrodite Macbain: that's what I was about to say..
Bruce Mowbray: snapperoooo.
Mickorod Renard: the funny thing was,.,it reminded me of how headmasters are... often very cemented in their ways
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Bruce Mowbray: Most authority figures are, Mick.
Tura Brezoianu: like the saying in the military that under stress, you don't rise to your best, you sink to the level of your training
Aphrodite Macbain: I don’t think hallucination is always considered pathological
Aphrodite Macbain: nods at Tura
Bruce Mowbray nods, good point, Tura.
Tura Brezoianu: she does use the word rather broadly
Mickorod Renard: nice point Tura
Aphrodite Macbain: It is our coping mechanism
Tura Brezoianu: perhaps "mistaking things 'in here' for things 'out there'
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, that's why I cautioned about "hallucination" and understanding what she means by it.
Aphrodite Macbain: right Tura
Bruce Mowbray: Excellent definition, Tura.
Aphrodite Macbain: Maxine defined it earlier on as something that comes from within than from outside
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, internal musings, perhaps.
Aphrodite Macbain: internal constructions and beliefs
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Aphrodite Macbain: that we hold onto like a life raft
Bruce Mowbray: depending on how threatened we are, yes.
Aphrodite Macbain: This is where I find it connects to Buddhist beliefs
Aphrodite Macbain: that encourages us to recognize that nothing is fixed
Bruce Mowbray: Certainties about "good and "bad: - "friend" and "foe," perhaps.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Mickorod Renard: in Tennis, they say you are only as good as your second serve...I wonder if that is linked in too...so in the military the training is to condition the primitive function to be effective under pressure?
Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps- or when one is tense we are not at our best
Bruce Mowbray: In the military, that LAST thing you want to happen is for the soldiers to start second-guessing their commander's orders.
Aphrodite Macbain: Zen and the art of Archery...
Aphrodite Macbain: Did anyone find it interesting when she talks about right to right brain communication? and how powerful it is?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I found that interesting.
Mickorod Renard: I found it raised questions for me
Bruce Mowbray: I assume that's one of the skills of effective psychotherapy.
Aphrodite Macbain: which questions Mick?
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Mickorod Renard: well, the right brain is the more artsy
Mickorod Renard: or ...compassionate?
Aphrodite Macbain: it's also the most emotional and instinctive
Bruce Mowbray: empathetic...
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Mickorod Renard: and tried to see how it would work
Mickorod Renard: I become ruthless when under pressure
Bruce Mowbray: Reversion to "lower brain" functions, Mick?
Mickorod Renard: maybe Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: apparently that kind of communication has strong emotional impact as it isn't mediated by the cerebral cortex or left brain
Bruce Mowbray: A lot of people do that....
Bruce Mowbray: or else take to insulting people with Tweets, ha ha.
Mickorod Renard: grin
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: she continues to enforce the fact that early experiences can affect how this works
Aphrodite Macbain: the more needy we are, the less balanced
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I found that remarkable, Aph.
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: It becomes an "evolutionary legacy"
Aphrodite Macbain: which I don’t completely understand...
Aphrodite Macbain: Is she talking about from generation to generation?
Aphrodite Macbain: or during a person's lifetime

Aphrodite Macbain: Hey druthie
druth Vlodovic: hey all
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi druth :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi Druth
Bleu Oleander: hi druth :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, druth.

Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps. I know that child abuse is often repeated through generations... like father, like son, etc.
Mickorod Renard: I suspect it is to do with care pre and after birth
Aphrodite Macbain: resulting in the same kind of damage?
Aphrodite Macbain: does someone become more hallucinatory the worse their child experience is?
Catrinamonblue Resident: One would expect so...
Bruce Mowbray: perhaps, but I was thinking of how the infant/child is treated in her formative years
Aphrodite Macbain: they hold on to imagined certainties to be safe
Tura Brezoianu: I think she's talking about our evolutionary history since being semi-evolved apes roaming the savannah
Aphrodite Macbain: that's what I was wondering Tura

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: Yes, internal retreat to ever more rigid forms of "safety" perhaps.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, running from "the lion."
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: "reversion to primary modes of defense"
druth Vlodovic: or simply difficulty reconciling observations with conceptions
Bruce Mowbray: Those who reverted to lower brain functions, lived. Those who sat around and pondered about it did not.

Aphrodite Macbain: right hence they evolved
Mickorod Renard: I have also seen how some kids that are targets of abuse at school have a tendency to attract trouble too
Aphrodite Macbain: How so Mick?
Bruce Mowbray listens for more from Mick.
Mickorod Renard: it’s difficult to explain Aph, more an observation i have made
Mickorod Renard: so I wonder whether there is something that changes a character to show tendencies that people pick up on
Aphrodite Macbain wonders whether fear in someone else attracts bullies; they become targets.
Bruce Mowbray: (perhaps more massive denial of those aspects of reality that the children's psyches cannot deal with... making them less capable of happy socialization....)
Mickorod Renard: I have also seen a report where they say a new born child can detect a parent that is a loser...which I found odd
Aphrodite Macbain: Survival of the fittest at its ugliest?
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder what defines a loser in a child's eyes
druth Vlodovic: there is a wide range of reasons and results; one of many is the tendency for people to impose "justice" on the world by making mistreatment of themselves "just," by themselves being "bad"
Mickorod Renard: exactly
Bruce Mowbray: Yeah that "only the strong survive" becoming "only the bullies survive..."
Aphrodite Macbain: isn’t that a masochist druth??
druth Vlodovic: an excess id ideology I think, the need the world to make sense
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Bruce Mowbray: Feeling "Not-OK" is something that is learned.
Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps an excess id too
Aphrodite Macbain: It certainly explains why people tend to hold tightly to their beliefs
Bruce Mowbray: The "I'm not OK" person will continually self-sabotage....
Mickorod Renard: I had kids stay their break times with me to avoid bullying...but I almost felt ..annoyed with them in the way a bully would...like they were just annoying...it made me question how these kids would ever break the cycle
Aphrodite Macbain: If they let go....who knows what might happen?
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: That would be an interesting question to answer Mick
Aphrodite Macbain: why are some people less secure than others?
Tura Brezoianu: were they old enough to be able to have a sensible conversation about it?
druth Vlodovic: "clingy" and "needy" tend to cause negative emotional reactions in others
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Mickorod Renard: clearly ..for me...some personality issue ..no doubt from upbringing…or trauma may have changed them at some stage
Aphrodite Macbain: I suppose that's where compassion should come into play
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods yes
Aphrodite Macbain: but perhaps it's hard to have compassion for some when one is insecure oneself
Bruce Mowbray ponders Mick's kids' staying with him during recess and the notion of self-blaming.... (also a learned thing to do).
Mickorod Renard: I even question myself…as for many years I found it so important to appear macho…even though i was not inside
Aphrodite Macbain: why was it important to you Mick?
Aphrodite Macbain: Who taught you to feel this way?
Mickorod Renard: I think it was started by my father...

Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Bruce Mowbray gave up on appearing "macho when he worked at a prison for eight years -- watching the ridiculous situations "macho men" brought upon themselves.
Mickorod Renard: I took it to extremes just to annoy him
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: what did you do to annoy him?
Mickorod Renard: I darnt say....but life must have been hell for my parents
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: It must be very hard when you grow up not being able to fit the required mold
Mickorod Renard: and I had a lot of anger in myself…but that could have been hormones
Aphrodite Macbain: Maxine would call that emotional upwellings Mick
Mickorod Renard: yes!
Aphrodite Macbain: that right brain
Aphrodite Macbain: letting things go to hell in a handbasket
Bruce Mowbray: I agree with Aph. . . "Anger is saying "STOP!" to something. . .
Catrinamonblue Resident: agree
Bruce Mowbray: Anger is one of the forms that those upwellings can take, though.
Bleu Oleander: slips out quietly ... take care all :)
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Bleu.
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Bleu
Catrinamonblue Resident: bye Bleu :)
Mickorod Renard: bye Bleu

--BELL—

Mickorod Renard: but my son is similar...and yet I never hit him or bullied him or anything...but I think he found my act hard to follow…he he
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder when we feel anger or fear it is because one of our borders or walls is being transgressed
Aphrodite Macbain: we are being taken out of our “comfort hallucination”
Catrinamonblue Resident: our hallucinations are being challenged :)
Aphrodite Macbain: yes Cat!
Catrinamonblue Resident: snap :)
Bruce Mowbray: For me, the central theme of this section was about how reversion to rigidity and de-differentiation in situations of stress and trauma can be made better through awareness of what is actually going on - both within oneself and in the real world.
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: nicely summarized Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Awareness opens up options.
Aphrodite Macbain: that's why I see meditation is one route to realizing and minimizing our delusions/hallucinations
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Mickorod Renard: a wonderful way of narrating it Bruce
Bruce Mowbray ponders stories we tell ourselves. . . and how powerful they are.
Mickorod Renard: I see your point now Aph…very good observation...take time out and reflect
Bruce Mowbray: But it is very important to have a "safe space" in which you can do that reflecting.
Aphrodite Macbain: Maxine talked about "reanimation of self-reflexive capacity" so I can "observe my situation as temporary."
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes Bruce
Mickorod Renard: that’s true Bruce…the stories can be too concrete and we find them hard to replace
Aphrodite Macbain: How can we look at ourselves objectively
Aphrodite Macbain: and recognize what we do?
Aphrodite Macbain: and REALIZE IT'S TEMPORARY
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: that was key
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Aph, -- so important in her role as therapist to be able to be self-reflexive.... especially when she feels like giving up on a patient.
Aphrodite Macbain: to see that things don’t stay the same
Bruce Mowbray: Yes.
Aphrodite Macbain: that things are temporary which can be a nice thought or a bad one :(
Mickorod Renard: what wrecked me most in life was when my story as a person became destroyed...by an outside force...it left me with no identity...it’s a strange thing
Bruce Mowbray: "Time out."
Catrinamonblue Resident: understand that Mick...
Aphrodite Macbain: Can you say more Mick?
Mickorod Renard: I think we rely on having an identity
Bruce Mowbray: Sounds really traumatic for you, Mick.
Aphrodite Macbain: identity – is that what Maxine calls the ego?
Mickorod Renard: but as Bruce said, we do need to allow some flexibility
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: willing to give up certain beliefs
Mickorod Renard: the flexibility would make one more resilient not weaker
Aphrodite Macbain: yes!
Aphrodite Macbain: more resilient - good word
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Bruce Mowbray: .... "so I may observe my situation as one of temporary erosion rather than just being swept away into the conviction of paralyzed hallucinations..."
Mickorod Renard: we will prevail
Aphrodite Macbain wonders what I need to be able to recognize hallucinations and what is truth
Mickorod Renard: he he Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: temporary erosion ...:-)
Aphrodite Macbain: Like a tide or waves, moving forward and back
Mickorod Renard: I think the truth is closer to that one has reflected on rather than taken for granted
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
druth Vlodovic: part of the difficulty is overestimating the risk loss of identity entails
Bruce Mowbray: I need to scoot. THANK YOU, Aph for leading today. Thanks to everyone for participating.
Catrinamonblue Resident: bye Bruce :)
Mickorod Renard: bye Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: can you say more druth?
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: what kind of loss?
Mickorod Renard: I am following you Druth
Aphrodite Macbain: sounds like Mick identifies
Mickorod Renard: identity is only important to one’s ego
druth Vlodovic: just that losing identity is less traumatic than worrying about losing identity
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes

druth Vlodovic: when it happens you  look back and remember it as a bad part of your life but can't pinpoint any harm other than anxiety
druth Vlodovic: they tend to be readily available :P
Aphrodite Macbain: what- the bad parts?
Aphrodite Macbain: I can’t imagine what it would feel like to lose my identity

Mickorod Renard: the identity doesn’t actually change
Aphrodite Macbain: I may have changed my identity but not lost it
Aphrodite Macbain: (older, retired etc.)
Catrinamonblue Resident: the shattering of self (identity) is a traumatic experience but for myself was a freeing experience in the long run.... to break the mold of who I thought I was....
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- change isn't always bad :-)
Mickorod Renard: for me it was the whole thing I had built my life and aspirations on...what we may call the foundation…having to write that off and start again was no different than carrying on
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes Mick I understand that I think :
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Mickorod Renard: but it felt like the end of the world
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder what we consider our identity
Aphrodite Macbain: our.. self?

--BELL--

Catrinamonblue Resident: the labels we call ourselves before we know any better :)
Aphrodite Macbain: we are constantly changing- even our physical body
Aphrodite Macbain: nods- yes Cat- we are good at labeling ourselves
Mickorod Renard: yes, labels were a big part of what Pema would talk about
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Mickorod Renard: ok…on that i must go
Aphrodite Macbain: Mick - how did you reconstruct your identity?
Aphrodite Macbain: ok
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks Mick
Aphrodite Macbain: Great observations
Mickorod Renard: i didn’t have a choice…i had responsibilities
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Catrinamonblue Resident: thanks Mick :)
Mickorod Renard: :) thank yu all
Aphrodite Macbain: I'd love to find out more one day :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Mick
Mickorod Renard: he he ,,it was all very boring really
Mickorod Renard: bye
Aphrodite Macbain: :/
Catrinamonblue Resident: bye Mick :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: and I should be off too :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: time to find some food :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Tura- have you ever encountered the experience of losing your identity?
Aphrodite Macbain: OK
Tura Brezoianu: I can't say I have
Aphrodite Macbain: byee Cat. Thanks for your great observations
Tura Brezoianu: of course I've changed over the years, but there's also a thread of continuity
Catrinamonblue Resident: :) bye all
Tura Brezoianu: bye Cat
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Tura Brezoianu: a rather long thread :)
Aphrodite Macbain: nothing dramatic
Aphrodite Macbain: evolution rather than rupture?
Tura Brezoianu: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: or revolution?

Tura Brezoianu: gradual revolution
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm not sure if we turn back to the beginning

Aphrodite Macbain: This has been an interesting session
Aphrodite Macbain: I learn a lot more when I am facilitating! I have to read the material more closely.
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Tura Brezoianu: time for me to be going
Tura Brezoianu: thanks for the discussion
Aphrodite Macbain: thank you Tura!
Aphrodite Macbain: CU on Thursday maybe
druth Vlodovic: tata
Aphrodite Macbain: byee