2017.07.17 13:00 - WoLE Session: Awakening at the Interface

The Guardian for this The Wisdom of Lived Experience - Views from Psychoanalysis, Neuroscience, Philosophy and Metaphysics meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.  It was a session of inspiring insightful reports.  

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce!
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: How is everything?

Bruce Mowbray: No meditation today?
Eliza Madrigal: I've been doing it Thursdays
Bruce Mowbray: Ahhh. kk.
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Mick!
Eliza Madrigal: Last week was alone, but I'm going to keep going for a while
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick :)
Mickorod Renard: hiya folks
Bruce Mowbray: Good to learn that you'll be continuing it, Eliza.
Eliza Madrigal: SL has been so beneficial to my meditation practice
Eliza Madrigal: especially in terms of consistency

Mickorod Renard: sorry i have been a bit vacant
Eliza Madrigal: fine to miss a session here and there Mick, we always miss you
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Raffi
Raffila Millgrove: Hi all. Nice to see you Mic. we did miss you.
Mickorod Renard: hiya raffi
Raffila Millgrove: oops i forgot i have my tag on for the Relay for Life. I always run it. it was this weekend.
Mickorod Renard: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu
Bleu Oleander: hi all :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi Bleu
Eliza Madrigal: Did you guys like this section?
Mickorod Renard: yes I did
Bruce Mowbray: I liked it a lot.
Eliza Madrigal: oh, and what a wonderful oblisk on your spot, Bleu

Eliza Madrigal: it felt refreshing.. this reading.. was happy for it

--BELL--

Mickorod Renard: I even wrote something
Eliza Madrigal: wonderful Mick :))
Mickorod Renard: he he
Raffila Millgrove: i brought a report as well. i suspect maybe we all have one today?
Mickorod Renard: cool Raffi
Eliza Madrigal: I just have a few excerpts that I noted
Eliza Madrigal: Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: I took a few notes also.
Bruce Mowbray: (musings, actually)
Mickorod Renard: great!
Eliza Madrigal: :)) Nice
Bleu Oleander: oh ty Eliza ... made by a friend
Eliza Madrigal: enjoyed gazing at it Bleu
Bleu Oleander: I have a version with the sun also
Raffila Millgrove: where is it on her. I am not catching it?
Bleu Oleander: on my property Raffi
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, aggers.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Agatha :) Cute outfit
Mickorod Renard: Hi Ags
Raffila Millgrove: ah ok. no wonder I do not see one on your body. lol
Agatha Macbeth: Evening all
Raffila Millgrove: Hi Aggers.
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: can see it from here
Agatha Macbeth: Yay Brucie's back :)
Raffila Millgrove: oh yes. i noticed it Sat ... meant to take closer look.
Mickorod Renard: have you been away Bruce?
Agatha Macbeth: Mick too
Eliza Madrigal: no men at last session :)
Bruce Mowbray: The storms knocked out my internet on Thursday, Mick.
Eliza Madrigal: ;-)
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Bruce Mowbray: (down for two days).
Eliza Madrigal: eep
Bleu Oleander: :(
Mickorod Renard: I was just overwhelmed by the malestrom
Eliza Madrigal: oh dear
Mickorod Renard: wow Bruce,,sounds scary
Agatha Macbeth: Not as scary as a femalestrom
Eliza Madrigal: badumbump
Bruce Mowbray: Lots of lightning and floods here.
Mickorod Renard: he he ,,well that was prob more like it
Agatha Macbeth: Oh dear
Raffila Millgrove: gosh that obelisk is just gorgeous close up.
Bleu Oleander: well made eh?
Agatha Macbeth: Great chat up line
Raffila Millgrove: very much so.
Mickorod Renard: wow,,we are expecting storms tomorrow night and thro the following day
Eliza Madrigal laughs
Eliza Madrigal: stay safe everyone :)
Agatha Macbeth: Hope the squirrels are okay
Bleu Oleander: we're having storms this week ... puppy seems non-plussed so far :)
Eliza Madrigal: oh, good Bleu!
Mickorod Renard: is that an obelisk in your pocket?
Eliza Madrigal: ha ha
Bleu Oleander: ha!
Agatha Macbeth: Can't say pharoah than that
Mickorod Renard: he he
Eliza Madrigal: Ready to share thoughts, Mick?
Mickorod Renard: ok,,as usual just my take

Mickorod Renard: I can't help feeling I am coming to grips with this book at last. The previous weeks reading which I failed to read in time along with this weeks reading I found comforting to myself.

Mickorod Renard: As a person who does tend to be self reflecting and often not ready to describe himself as 'certain' had in the past left me feeling in 'doubt' about my metal. Here, in this book I am now being reassured that being open to reflection and questioning is perhaps a strength and maybe a sign of balanced thinking.

Mickorod Renard: I have also had the opportunity of reflecting on some of my past issues and seeing these in relation to traumas that some around me have faced. I have become less bitter in myself towards others and more open to seeing troubled folk in a more understanding way.

Mickorod Renard: Sometimes I have reflected on my diverse life, wondering why it has had its extremes and bizarre happenings, maybe even questioning that it might have something to do with something negative about myself. But here in this section I can almost see that the ups and downs and extremes are just a blessing in the rich diversity of life. The depth I have experienced in part perhaps due to me being gifted with degree of observation, perception and reflexion rather than a curse or dismissive attitude. Thank you Maxine.
Mickorod Renard: done

Agatha Macbeth: Nice
Eliza Madrigal: how beautiful, Mick!
Mickorod Renard: ty
Eliza Madrigal: Feels really good to read that
Bruce Mowbray: Really fine, Mick.
Bleu Oleander: nice Mick
Mickorod Renard: I hope its ppoinient to the sections
Eliza Madrigal: feels like stepping out onto a veranda from inside a smaller room
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Raffi, ready to share?
Mickorod Renard: yes, thats a good metaphor eliza
Raffila Millgrove: maybe not quite.
Raffila Millgrove: yet.
Eliza Madrigal: Okay so we'll come back?
Raffila Millgrove: ok
Eliza Madrigal: K, Bruce?
Raffila Millgrove: garbage truck. have to run outside a sec.
Bruce Mowbray: me? ok.
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Bruce Mowbray: or shall we wait for Raffi?
Agatha Macbeth: Don't dive in
Eliza Madrigal: she said we can come back around to her Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: kk, here goes.
Mickorod Renard: great

Bruce Mowbray: The “fading dream” that we try to remember at the interface of dreaming and waking is itself a collection of images.
Bruce Mowbray: Those images may be arranged in relationships that may reveal archetypes:
Bruce Mowbray: psychic structures whose form both reflects and guides creative awareness.
Bruce Mowbray: i.e. the world that “we half create and half perceive” (Wordsworth)
Bruce Mowbray: In matters of eros/psyche, there is no such thing as “merely picturesque.” (McGilchrist)
Bruce Mowbray: To “find unity with something greater than oneself” means that we have previously separated (willfully or otherwise) from it…
Bruce Mowbray: Reminder from Winnecott: the child/adolescent MUST withdraw from the all-pervading mother
Bruce Mowbray: Withdraw from the primary “union” in order to find new union(s) – in order to bring opposites together – we “half create and half perceive” worlds greater than mother, self, and mother-self.
Bruce Mowbray: And of such unions, tragedy is born. [done]

Eliza Madrigal: whoa

--BELL--

Mickorod Renard: wow..cool write up Bruce,,reminded me of something we did in tsk and also I had image of 'rapture'?
Bruce Mowbray: ty.
Bruce Mowbray: Also reminded me of tsk, a lot.
Eliza Madrigal: nice tie in too, Mick. Was thankful for the pause to read again and linger with that ... hm, image?
Eliza Madrigal: poetic impression perhaps
Mickorod Renard: there is something i read re the universe, where it became because it divided
Bruce Mowbray: "broken symmetry" ?
Mickorod Renard: not sure,,but like us as cells at the beginning its all about splitting
Bruce Mowbray: splitting and coming together again -- as T.S. Eliot said, "for the first time."
Eliza Madrigal: lots of bangs ? :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Eliza Madrigal: ie the big bang only seems big to us, or some such :)
Bruce Mowbray: "seeing the place for the first time" actually.
Eliza Madrigal: ahh
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Eliza Madrigal smiles

Bruce Mowbray: Seeing implies "image" doesn't it? or is that just my image?
Eliza Madrigal: does reflection always need an image?
Mickorod Renard: but also seeing beyond the image?
Bruce Mowbray would like to hear Raffi's report when she's ready.
Eliza Madrigal nods... that's what I was thinking... there was a lot about not closing down at surface level
Raffila Millgrove: haha. interesting because that is subject of my report.
Bruce Mowbray: Great!
Eliza Madrigal: wb
Mickorod Renard: great!
Eliza Madrigal listens
Raffila Millgrove: i was here. i just had to run out for a sec.

Raffila Millgrove: Report on first pages of Chapter Five comment on this quote from the reading section assigned: "Poetry helps out because this world of the dreams and the shadow needs symbols and langue to make it recallable and thinkable to us for registration in memory and for our conscious analysis." I disagree with this statement. One does need language to communicate in written or oral words to a person at a distance in a book, article, letter, email, conversation. etc. But to record a dream in your memory--register it, think about it? You need words/languages or symbols? I don't. I am pretty sure many people don't.. Poetry is a helpful to enrich a recounting of a memory of a dream, but that is partly because language itself is so weak--when attempting to communicate to another about a dream. Even when attempting to think about it to ourselves--finding the language is not always easy.

Raffila Millgrove: When i say to you, "In my dream Jesus came back to earth on a bicycle", I cannot let you SEE or FEEL. with those words. I need to write a long long saga to get across what all that entailed. But for myself--the memory comes in a rush of movements, feelings, it's visual like a movie--and I do not use a single word to think about it. Not even the word Jesus. I feel the experience with emotion, with sensual input.. all over again as I did in the dream. I absolutely did not need any language to record it. I knew what I was seeing, I knew what I was feeling--there were no words to record, remember or analyse.

Raffila Millgrove: Please read the statement again. Compare it to your experiences with dreams and shadows--with the non-waking external daytime life....are you talking to yourself, are you thinking to yourself in words when you Register a memory, recall it, remember your dream? Do you talk to yourself about it? I can if I like, but often I do not at all. I feel it, I see it, I run it back like a Youtube clip. No words are involved, no symbols, no body or sign language. I am just THERE inside it, feeling it, looking at it.
Raffila Millgrove: -------
Raffila Millgrove: that quibble addressed--this chapter and the rest of the book: the difficult reading/understanding is now behind us. I found this chapter 5 and rest of book to be very refreshing, easy to understand/read and fascinating. Done
Bruce Mowbray: I agree with Raffi.
Eliza Madrigal: thanks Raffi
Raffila Millgrove: yw

Bruce Mowbray: I "feel" my images, and I remember in images, not words.
Eliza Madrigal: For me, would depend on the dream. Some come in flashes and some come in long stories that I puzzle out
Bruce Mowbray: I cannot ever recall remembering a dream - except as a collection of images.
Mickorod Renard: Thats well noted Raffi and I am glad you brought it up
Raffila Millgrove: but Eliza. the registering.. the registering for recall of a dream. do you need words?
Eliza Madrigal: or flashes that I long puzzle out
Mickorod Renard: I am supprised when I write a dream up how many words it takes for even a very short dream
Eliza Madrigal: they're helpful... I use everything I have

Bruce Mowbray: So, Raffi, would you say that language has the effect of removing us a step away from "reality"?
Raffila Millgrove: I have always felt that it is upsetting that the brain doesn't have a search engine.. that you cannot think of search words.. key words.. hashtags.. you can't access half your files cause they aren't there under "words" like our paper filing systems would be.
Bruce Mowbray: nods, agrees again. But I DO have an "images" search engine in my brain, I think.
Eliza Madrigal nods
Mickorod Renard: When i write one up i only skim the main reasoning,,little about the backdrop etc
Raffila Millgrove: well i would say that langauge is good for communicating something to another.. that it's very handy.. but removing us from our internal reality.. yes in a way.. definately. once you start analyxing in words. i think you might change your own memory of a dream by accident.
Bruce Mowbray agrees again.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bleu, thoughts today? here today? ;-)
Bleu Oleander: yes :)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Bruce Mowbray flashes an image of puppies....

Bleu Oleander: “find unity with something greater than oneself” is where I found myself
Mickorod Renard: yes, wee often use language just to provide a name for something similar that the listener can relate to visually..
Mickorod Renard: oops ;listens
Bleu Oleander: its a brain state that feels good
Bleu Oleander: transcendence
Eliza Madrigal nods
Bleu Oleander: dream states, awake states can have this feeling

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: music, art, poetry, meditation, thinking all can produce it for me
Bleu Oleander: language helps us understand and communicate our brain states ... so important for me and not limited to the ordinary
Bleu Oleander: we cannot know reality in some objective sense, but we can understand realities in a number of different, inspiring ways
Bleu Oleander: musings on something greater than myself :)
Bleu Oleander: done

Eliza Madrigal: Thanks very much, Bleu
Raffila Millgrove: ty Blue.
Raffila Millgrove: Bleu
Bleu Oleander: :)
Mickorod Renard: very nice Bleu...reminded me how much I get lost in a good book
Eliza Madrigal: "brain state that feels good" should be within every definition of transcendence
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: indeed
Mickorod Renard: I am almost halucinnating
Eliza Madrigal: immersive :)
Bruce Mowbray nods, agrees with Mick
Eliza Madrigal: Aggers?
Eliza Madrigal: :) well I can share my few notes, although everyone has touched on what touched me
Mickorod Renard: yes please

Eliza Madrigal: Goethe's view of the deeper perception of reality as an ever-evolving process, echoes Loewald, Bass, and Hegel's perspectives: “The phenomenon [reality] must never be thought of as finished or complete… but rather as evolving, growing and in many ways as something yet to be determined” (McGilchrist, 2009, p. 360; also p. 507, fn 44). (Kindle Locations 1563-1565).
Eliza Madrigal: This reminds me of the concept of wabi sabi, which is taken as working with flaws usually, but there is more to it, which is really along the lines of "incompleteness"
Bruce Mowbray: impermanence and incompeteness - and imperfection, yes.
Agatha Macbeth: Mm?
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Eliza Madrigal: and, even in daily life, developing the capacity to feel when one is narrowing down expectations,
Eliza Madrigal: or going into a kind of concrete set of thoughts
Eliza Madrigal: lately, more out of meditation than in, I find myself able to glide...
Eliza Madrigal: just don't go in...
Eliza Madrigal: can take that as poetry perhaps :)

Eliza Madrigal: "awakening at the interface" is a delectable phrase
Eliza Madrigal: And that seems about Capacity: Scheler suggests that the enigmatic dream world, with its emerging forms, also expands, as does poetry, our capacities for experience and self-awareness (Kindle Locations 1554-1555).
Eliza Madrigal: done

Bruce Mowbray ponders "Flow" as a way of "gliding"
Eliza Madrigal: :) was seeing if you had thoughts to share before, Aggers :)
Eliza Madrigal: indeed, Bruce
Mickorod Renard: you remind me of when i got hooked on impermanence..during tsk..it was a good time
Agatha Macbeth: Oh, not really
Eliza Madrigal: ok :)
Agatha Macbeth: Tsk tsk
Bruce Mowbray: Does your "glide" serve to bring opposites together, Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: well there are transcendent experiences... and then there is what it felt like she described...
Eliza Madrigal: which is more a way of being that just keeps integrating the coarse within the more and more subtle?
Eliza Madrigal: so rather than trying to cobble them together, your expansiveness sort of integrates it all
Eliza Madrigal: maybe no real opposites in that light
Bruce Mowbray: ahhh! I loved Maxine's image of moving from revenge to compassion...
Eliza Madrigal: yes!
Mickorod Renard: me too Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: and reconciliation.

Eliza Madrigal: OH! I forgot to say we need to send Aph good vibes today!
Bruce Mowbray: Oh yes!
Agatha Macbeth: Where is she?
Eliza Madrigal: She is defending her dissertation
Bruce Mowbray: Her oral defense of her thesis.
Mickorod Renard: ah..vibes to Aph
Agatha Macbeth: Oh
Eliza Madrigal: YAY APH! :::waves and cheers:::
Raffila Millgrove: oh yes. good vibes to Aph. yaya. you are doing great Aph!

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: I also thought of how people separate themselves into hostile categories....
Bruce Mowbray: Racism, sexism, paranoid xenophobia are all examples of an unconscious fear of bringing opposites together. . .
Eliza Madrigal: definitely
Bruce Mowbray: This section offers a "way out of all that"
Bleu Oleander: we're very tribal
Eliza Madrigal: or of making the opposites in the first place
Mickorod Renard: the revenge and compassion thing is something I battled with during talks on forgivness
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Raffila Millgrove: well we're not getting out of all that in a hurry. that stuff seems hardwired into..... is that person like me? one of "us" or.. not.
Bleu Oleander: we have such a strong in group/out group thing
Raffila Millgrove: snap
Bleu Oleander: :)

Mickorod Renard: I think the revenge..although sounding attractive,,is like anger which harms oneself
Mickorod Renard: wheras compassion and forgivness is more healthy
Raffila Millgrove: i personally think revenge is evil and wildly satisfying. i engaged in it maybe twice and while I felt bad that i was being bad.. i also felt great.. so i realize how seductive and powerful it is. it explains why people get sucked into it so easily.
Mickorod Renard: so one does it for oneself
Bruce Mowbray: Was anyone else fascinated by McGilchrist's phrase "the gods themselves in evolution . . . " moving from instinct toward justice, etc.?
Eliza Madrigal: I think the reason we 'play' with questioning assumptions, and inquiring into reality here, is because it can be disorienting. Sometimes it is fun and other times it really affects one's sense of being in the world and with others. But it is a value system one aspires to, to keep open questioning nature at the fore. Ie flourishing
Mickorod Renard: I am unsure I got that..Bruce
Raffila Millgrove: I think after awhile of getting it--you forget that it's so bad. i actually don't think it's harmful to the person doing it. it's incredibly harmful to those around that person.
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, I loved that Bruce :)
Eliza Madrigal: maybe I'd like revenge if I were better at it ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: :)

Mickorod Renard: can you say more Bruce?
Raffila Millgrove: well it scared me.. how good it feels that's for sure. that blew me away. i resolved to never go there.. again.
Raffila Millgrove: after my second experiment.
Bruce Mowbray: Well, it seems the universe itself (represented by the gods) is evolving...
Bruce Mowbray: progressing towards something better... all the time.
Mickorod Renard: it can be like a dog that tastes blood raffi
Bleu Oleander: the ol' tit for tat, eye for an eye thing
Bleu Oleander: hopefully we'll evolve from that to a better system of justice
Eliza Madrigal nods
Raffila Millgrove: agree Mic. it's so seductive.. that's why i think the "devil" is very charming and lovely person. you want to get into evil... it's so exciting and fulfilling. bad news!
Mickorod Renard: I would like to think it evolving in a positive way
Bruce Mowbray: Cosmos is continually "forgiving" itself... as spring forgives winter.

Some talk about the sessions' formats themselves. 
Some references to Bruce's Saturday session.

Eliza Madrigal: we're close to the end of the hour and speaking of evolving, I have questions about how to move on with these sessions
Bruce Mowbray: kk, listens.
Mickorod Renard: listens
Raffila Millgrove: they never should ahve used a snake or serpent in the story of garden of eden. should have been a really cute kitten.
Eliza Madrigal: so feedback is appreciated ... wondering whether to keep going twice a week, or maybe extend this one or thus to longer than one hour and have just one
Raffila Millgrove: I was wondering Eliza since this half of book is much easier to read if maybe we'd read more?
Eliza Madrigal: I felt confused reading comments over the weekend, and a bit disoriented as though my impression is different
Raffila Millgrove: maybe we could go faster?
Bruce Mowbray: Personally, I'd prefer twice a week, but would come to one longer session also.

Eliza Madrigal: did you notice how much longer this excerpt was? was a bit more actually
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I noticed that.
Eliza Madrigal: about six weeks ago I redid the schedule and brought us to beginning october to finish
Raffila Millgrove: so you think maybe we will go faster then?
Mickorod Renard: I am happy as it is but also can adopt to change
Bruce Mowbray agrees with Mick.
Eliza Madrigal: but I feel like, if there is unhappiness, then we should change something...
Raffila Millgrove: I don't think it matters much at this point.
Mickorod Renard: has there been unhappyness?
Bruce Mowbray: Would you and Mick feel burdened if we kept two sessions?
Bruce Mowbray: @ Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: I thought we were doing okay before, but felt thrown off after reading your session Bruce. Raffi?
Mickorod Renard: I am very low involved Bruce
Raffila Millgrove: well i should't have said anything.
Bleu Oleander: what threw you off?
Eliza Madrigal: it felt to me like we were finding balances
Eliza Madrigal: no if you feel strongly you definitely should say something
Eliza Madrigal: and then we should figure it all out better
Eliza Madrigal: so you didn't do anything wrong Raffi
Raffila Millgrove: well i do feel strongly but it's like water under the bridge really.
Mickorod Renard: he he ,,I must have missed a good one
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Raffila Millgrove: because... this point: I tried to write that mail in a way that said.. you don't have to come to session to send in question to Maxine, you don't have to read book to ask question of her or visit with us when she comes. Totally zero on the whole thing.
Raffila Millgrove: in other words. i feel that.. it's over. it's too late to bother with it.
Mickorod Renard: I have voiced before that I fear that because we are similar in our compassion that we may create too much of a similar take on things
Raffila Millgrove: and I just knew it would upset you in a way... or come across as compalint or critisize.. which it did.
Raffila Millgrove: and it wasn't. but i couldn't figure out how to say it right. so it's.. done by me at this time. cause i can't communicate it the way i'd like to.
Bruce Mowbray: I'm off to scrape up supper. May all be safe and happy. Bye for now, good people.
Eliza Madrigal: k Bruce, bye for now
Mickorod Renard: by Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: I like to feel like we're all doing something together
Agatha Macbeth: Scrape well Brucie
Raffila Millgrove: I'll talk to you later privately if you want Eliza. cause I thinke veryone who is coming. i think they are fine.

--BELL--

Raffila Millgrove: I think all the people who come to these sessions are fine with how it's going.
Eliza Madrigal: well Raffi the main thing is knowing if you were speaking for others... having a sense of that
Eliza Madrigal: and whether I am just oblivious :)
Raffila Millgrove: ok. well we could talk. if you like. when it's convenient to you.
Eliza Madrigal: ok... hm, then for now going along as always?
Mickorod Renard: there is also a small risk..in me at least..that we have grown soclose that i assume you know what I mean..but that is presumptious of me
Agatha Macbeth: Know wot I mean Mick?
Bleu Oleander: seems a bit slow and a bit drawn out to me, but willing to go with the flow
Mickorod Renard: grin,,
Eliza Madrigal nods... yes that's why even if awkward I feel it is better to openly bring things up and figure out a better formula
Raffila Millgrove: I think Bleu's comment represents the general feeling.
Raffila Millgrove: a willingness to go with the flow.
Raffila Millgrove: which i think is how all feel who come.
Mickorod Renard: some of the wording was in itself dificult to grasp at first..so slow may have been the way
Bleu Oleander: flows can change, which I think is Eliza's question?
Eliza Madrigal nods
Raffila Millgrove: and I think I made it clear that I really don't want to talk openly on it anymore. for recording. and that's partly cause I can't articulate this as clearly as I'd wish to.
Eliza Madrigal: it usually takes weeks for there to be a shift, also, which may not be perceived...

Raffila Millgrove: I already talked on another opic with Bruce. that .. did not go well.
Raffila Millgrove: at all. and I am trying to "get over it".
Raffila Millgrove: that same sesssion.
Bleu Oleander: not sure what is being referred to .... did I miss a session?
Raffila Millgrove: because I personally was talking to me... as clear as I possibly can.. and was geting replies that upset me.. more and more because I feel like I was not heard at all.
Raffila Millgrove: the session on Sat. Bleu.
Eliza Madrigal: we could stick to mondays for WoLe, but like today, reports went well but take most of the session
Bleu Oleander: ty I'll take a look at it
Eliza Madrigal: I value hearing everyone articulate thoughtfully
Raffila Millgrove: no no.. don't please don't Bleu. really.
Bleu Oleander: kk :)
Raffila Millgrove: ty
Eliza Madrigal: everyone has strengths and weaknessnes in ways of learning
Mickorod Renard: mine mostly weaknesses

Eliza Madrigal: Raffi, I don't know what to say... but at times it did feel pretty bad to read your comments...
Raffila Millgrove: yes the reports taking the session is why we got the second session. which seems very nice to me.
Eliza Madrigal: and I need to be honest and human too
Eliza Madrigal: which means oversensitive in cases
Agatha Macbeth: You do a good job of it too
Raffila Millgrove: Well i think that proves it pretty good. that my attempt to talk on this went to hell and you were upset/offended by it.. so I don't think it's a good thing to rehash cuase Everyone including me is very grateful for all you do and i personally tell you this at every chance that seems good.
Mickorod Renard: A fantastic job Eliza
Raffila Millgrove: so no one wants to upset you.
Raffila Millgrove: period.
Raffila Millgrove: cause you work too hard for us to upset you.
Eliza Madrigal: I definitely don't want anyone walking on eggshells
Eliza Madrigal: but I'm doing that too
Agatha Macbeth: No, it makes a mess
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Mickorod Renard: but we need open speech..its what will stop us becoming locked into one mindset
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Eliza Madrigal: that's just it
Eliza Madrigal: I really love different takes but then feel responsible for organizing and sometimes the flow of meeting, ie giving people chances, etc
Eliza Madrigal: and think I'm doing not perfectly but okay working with all the patterns and preferences
Eliza Madrigal: and don't want to be blind to changes I need to make
Eliza Madrigal: when they are workable
Raffila Millgrove: Eliza, i can't think of any more ways to say this. I apologize. i am sorry I upset you. I will try not to do it again.
Eliza Madrigal: I don't want that...
Eliza Madrigal: you really didn't do anything wrong
Eliza Madrigal: but we should have these conversations openly perhaps
Mickorod Renard: I think we all enjoy each other as individuals............there will be stumbles along the way..thats evolution and whatever else.....otherwise we would be autnomons..or whatever
Eliza Madrigal: anyway for now I think... maybe a WoLE session but then an open session Thursdays?
Eliza Madrigal: and if WoLE topics come up then it is fine and well?
Mickorod Renard: good for me
Bleu Oleander: fine for me
Eliza Madrigal: a healthy group can work with these balances I think
Eliza Madrigal: okay... hope Bruce will be okay with that too
Eliza Madrigal: sorry for being a downer
Agatha Macbeth: I hope he's okay with the weather too
Eliza Madrigal nods
Mickorod Renard: :)...alls good
Eliza Madrigal: :) good

Eliza Madrigal: Raffi if you have time it would be good to talk more
Raffila Millgrove: i forgot howmuch these summer storms can affect people in other parts of country.
Eliza Madrigal: or just say when
Eliza Madrigal: I really do value you and your way of seeing

--BELL--

Mickorod Renard: ok,,,,i am off
Eliza Madrigal: bye Mick
Bleu Oleander: bye Mick
Agatha Macbeth: Bye off
Eliza Madrigal: thanks
Agatha Macbeth: Be careful out there
Mickorod Renard: bye everyone,,and ty all
Agatha Macbeth: He jogs so well
Eliza Madrigal: I don't have to post all this btw
Eliza Madrigal: it is really about we who are at the session
Bleu Oleander: well for some, it might just be a book discussion ... for others a grasping for wisdom ... so, could be many different ways to participate
Eliza Madrigal: that's how I've felt, and I know it is sometimes 'stuffy' to some
Bleu Oleander: I think we've always seemed to accommodate the range
Eliza Madrigal: but I thought we were adapting
Eliza Madrigal nods
Bleu Oleander: has been like this since I first came to PaB :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: me too
Eliza Madrigal: it would be nice maybe for someone else to host on thursday

Bleu Oleander: by "going with the flow" I have found that sometimes the flow moves me
Eliza Madrigal: and post the log
Bleu Oleander: and to be moved is a good thing :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: It's a moving experience
Bleu Oleander: it is!
Eliza Madrigal: we extended to two sessions being responsive
Eliza Madrigal: not my ordering everyone around...
Eliza Madrigal: that's what I worry about it feeling like :)
Agatha Macbeth: I don't remember you ordering anyone around
Agatha Macbeth: Sarge
Eliza Madrigal: :) I like to pretend to
Agatha Macbeth: Oops musta missed that
Bleu Oleander: I ignore that :)
Eliza Madrigal laughs
Bleu Oleander: lol

Bleu Oleander: btw, your Gallery show is coming up ... we should talk soonish?
Eliza Madrigal: oh, yes sure
Bleu Oleander: captured in the log hehe
Eliza Madrigal: I've made progress but wow the world has flooded in
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: I changed the direction I was going in with that
Agatha Macbeth: Build an ark
Eliza Madrigal: and am short only one picture though
Eliza Madrigal: I may have the party/presentation on my birthday if thats okay...
Bleu Oleander: ok, give me a buzz when you need something ... I told Adams the last week of July she would clear so you can set up ... you can delete this from the log :)
Eliza Madrigal: RL birthday :)
Eliza Madrigal: ok
Bleu Oleander: oh birthday presentation! lovely
Eliza Madrigal: 16th... I don't think it is a weekend
Agatha Macbeth: You're 16?
Bleu Oleander: its your call
Agatha Macbeth: Wow
Bleu Oleander: sweet 16
Eliza Madrigal: perpetually
Agatha Macbeth: Yay
Eliza Madrigal: aren't we all 16 here?
Agatha Macbeth thinks of a Bob Dylan song
Bleu Oleander: 29 maybe
Agatha Macbeth: I certainly act like I'm 16 a lot
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Eliza Madrigal: I'm not sure what the average age of my universe is
Eliza Madrigal: I don't think it is beige though
Eliza Madrigal: :P
Agatha Macbeth: 42 of course
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I started out with a dark and wacky exhibit
Agatha Macbeth: Sounds good
Eliza Madrigal: but changed it :) it will be fun and friendly now
Bleu Oleander: d and w sounds fun
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Eliza Madrigal: yeah... but... it wasn't quite right
Eliza Madrigal: It was a great exercise though
Eliza Madrigal: maybe I'll make the last photo about what the whole thing was going to be
Bleu Oleander: intrigued now
Eliza Madrigal: hey, that's helpful.. to consider that
Agatha Macbeth: Oh good it's on Sunday
Eliza Madrigal: then... K gave me a project and my sister came into town
Eliza Madrigal: so a bit of a flood :)

Eliza Madrigal: so I need to make time and space to bring it forward
Eliza Madrigal: or to make it incomplete enough?
Bleu Oleander: :)

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: leave the last photo blank/incomplete :)
Eliza Madrigal: that may be it! Or, just black
Bleu Oleander: whatever color incomplete is :)
Eliza Madrigal: Sunday won't work, huh Aggers? Hm...
Agatha Macbeth: Back to black
Agatha Macbeth: Yes it will
Bleu Oleander: orange is the new incomplete
Agatha Macbeth: That's the point
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, yay :)
Agatha Macbeth: I don't want to miss a third one
Eliza Madrigal: I don't want you to
Agatha Macbeth: Well I wont
Agatha Macbeth: Just as long as I remember...
Eliza Madrigal: grr
Bleu Oleander: must pull myself away ... take care all and thanks for all your efforts here Eliza :)
Agatha Macbeth: TC Bleuji
Eliza Madrigal: thanks Bleu :) tc
Agatha Macbeth: Love to pup
Bleu Oleander: woof
Agatha Macbeth: My my
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Eliza Madrigal: prettiest doggie I've ever seen
Agatha Macbeth: George is cute tho
Agatha Macbeth: With his little legs
Eliza Madrigal: Raffi, agree with me not to post the end of this log, and I'll just write to the group that we're changing a little about the way the sessions are?   

[agreed in IM and later decided differently in emails]

Eliza Madrigal: George is handsome :D
Eliza Madrigal: and the *perfect* dog personality wise
Eliza Madrigal: although he is not loyal...
Agatha Macbeth: Really?
Agatha Macbeth: I'm surprised
Eliza Madrigal: he attached to my sister
Eliza Madrigal: immediately
Eliza Madrigal: didn't even mind sleeping with her
Eliza Madrigal: didn't even look for me!
Agatha Macbeth: 0.0
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Very male behaviour eh

Agatha Macbeth: I'm trying hard to work out what your dress is
Eliza Madrigal: Oh
Agatha Macbeth: Princess?
Eliza Madrigal: I found another dress at this place and soon had to buy 3... just bright and pretty colors, no theme really
Eliza Madrigal: where did you come from?
Agatha Macbeth: Oh I see now
Agatha Macbeth: It's Indian-y
Agatha Macbeth: The blonde hair looks a bit incongrous mind you
Agatha Macbeth: :P
Eliza Madrigal: :) a new world
Agatha Macbeth: More like a Valkyrie or something
Eliza Madrigal: "mostly in SL"
Eliza Madrigal: were you dancing before?
Agatha Macbeth: Yeh
Agatha Macbeth: Skating
Eliza Madrigal: very cute
Agatha Macbeth: As Mick jogs
Eliza Madrigal: and jeweled belly button :)
Agatha Macbeth: Yep
Agatha Macbeth: Goes with the outfit
Agatha Macbeth: Supposed to be an Amazonian thing I think
Eliza Madrigal: you have the looooong legs
Agatha Macbeth: I actually shortened them
Agatha Macbeth: Can never seem to get below a certain height
Eliza Madrigal: :) I feel tall until you arrive, haha
Agatha Macbeth: Never understood why the Lindens make avs so tall
Eliza Madrigal: well, maybe not in this avatar
Eliza Madrigal: I love feeling tall
Agatha Macbeth: Just checked my hover and it's 0
Agatha Macbeth: So can't blame that
Eliza Madrigal: hm