2017.08.07 13:00 - Transforming of View

The Guardian for this The Wisdom of Lived Experience - Views from Psychoanalysis, Neuroscience, Philosophy and Metaphysics  meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

Bleu's paintings. A sneak peek at the conversational turns further down :)
 

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Tura :)
Tura Brezoianu: hi Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: You were on one side approaching and when I blinked you appeared from the other
Tura Brezoianu: same thing happened for me. Some weird glitch
Eliza Madrigal: odd indeed

Tura Brezoianu: hi Korel
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Kori!
Korel Laloix: Heya

Eliza Madrigal: It has been way too long, how is *everything*?
Korel Laloix: Been a while since I was around... good to see you
Korel Laloix: Silly busy like normal. Yet another new job, but had to move this time.
Korel Laloix: Baby still taking over our lives.
Eliza Madrigal: You had to move with the family?
Korel Laloix: Dealing with live in mother in law...
Korel Laloix: etc
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: You say 'dealing with', but I know you are fond of her... many cooks in the kitchen?
Korel Laloix: New job, so had to move everyone.. Painful but worth it.
Eliza Madrigal: wow
Eliza Madrigal: congratulations then, if a good situation
Korel Laloix: Three alpha females in the house is a bit of a strain sometimes... lol
Eliza Madrigal: ha ha, I'm sure
Eliza Madrigal: And baby, aside from taking over your life?
Korel Laloix: But we work things out... for the most part...
Eliza Madrigal: (babies are tyrants, but wonderful ones)
Korel Laloix: She finally got her days and night straightened out.. so that is better for everyone.
Korel Laloix: Feeding well and doing well.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick :)
Korel Laloix: Heya
Eliza Madrigal: that's wonderful, Kori, very happy for you guys
Korel Laloix: Thanks...... smiles

Mickorod Renard: hi everyone
Korel Laloix: lol
Eliza Madrigal: taking a minute to rezz, Mick?
Mickorod Renard: hi everyone
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Again :)
Mickorod Renard: yes, I think pc is very slow at the mo
Korel Laloix: Just still getting setteled in the new house... and got tennents into the Tulsa house.. that is a big stress of our minds.
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, >whew<
Mickorod Renard: wow great Kori
Mickorod Renard: needs less stress
Eliza Madrigal: Are you still situated in the heat you love?
Korel Laloix: Not really hot enough here for me, but Sama and Sveta appreciate how cool it can be here
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: we're still reading Maxine's book... for a few more weeks...
Korel Laloix: I am still looking for that job inspecting saunas on the equator.
Mickorod Renard: he he

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal laughs
Korel Laloix: I am back to the school thing, so no leisure reading for me for a bit.
Eliza Madrigal: work school baby and mother in law too?
Eliza Madrigal: :::head spins::::
Korel Laloix: Yes.. I am stupid like that... but when the new job is paying, I can't really pass up taking a class... frowns.. smiles
Korel Laloix: Heya
Tura Brezoianu: hi Raffi
Eliza Madrigal: ah, sure, of course
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Raffi :)
Raffila Millgrove: HI Kori. great to see you. Hello everyone.
Mickorod Renard: Hi Raffi
Korel Laloix: Good to see you as well....
Korel Laloix: Have to go in a few moments... have to get to a meeting... frowns
Eliza Madrigal: giving a few minutes to see if others arrive anyway, so it is a perfect time for you to pop in
Eliza Madrigal: was wondering
Eliza Madrigal: although suspected you were just quite busy these days

Korel Laloix: I do try to make a dramatic appearance once in a while...
Eliza Madrigal laughs...
Mickorod Renard: Hi Blue
Eliza Madrigal: yes but normally right as we are all leaving!
Korel Laloix: Heya
Bleu Oleander: hi all :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu :)
Korel Laloix: Just going to the other end, to add drama...
Korel Laloix: OK.. have to get going... take care all...
Eliza Madrigal: well done
Eliza Madrigal: Okay, pop in again soon
Mickorod Renard: take care Kori
Korel Laloix: lol.. ciao
Eliza Madrigal: :) nice
 

Beginning

Eliza Madrigal: So, not sure if everyone saw Aph's email but she won't be able to come on Mondays due to a new class, so I wondered if we should move the 'reports' session to Thursdays again
Mickorod Renard: yes why not
Bleu Oleander: ok with me :)
Mickorod Renard: its getting close to finished now
Eliza Madrigal: it is
Eliza Madrigal: a few more weeks
Raffila Millgrove: ah. i see the connection now.. why the suggest to change.
Eliza Madrigal: 28th
Eliza Madrigal nods
Raffila Millgrove: seems like an ok idea to me... others think so?
Mickorod Renard: I had voice read the rest of the book to me
Eliza Madrigal: Aph has attended the whole time so it would be nice to accomodate
Eliza Madrigal: you did Mick?
Mickorod Renard: yes very much so..re Aph
Raffila Millgrove: ok so now it's reports Thurs?
Mickorod Renard: yes, although i cant remember what it said
Eliza Madrigal: yes, reports THurs :) Which doesn't mean if someone has one today they have to wait

Eliza Madrigal: we got more clarity on K and O
Mickorod Renard: I did find para lost thogh,,the one from childhood
Eliza Madrigal: ? a missing report of yours Mick
Mickorod Renard: it was an abbridged version
Mickorod Renard: so quite small and very little religious wording
Eliza Madrigal: hm
Mickorod Renard: cos I tried reading the ull one and was horrified I may have read that
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, now reading clearer... Paradise Lost!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Mickorod Renard: yes
Eliza Madrigal: So probably you read the abridged as a child?
Mickorod Renard: abridged by sommerville or someone

Mickorod Renard: I have no report today,,to be honest,,I am wiped out still
Eliza Madrigal: :) hopefully we are restful company
Mickorod Renard: and find reading n effort as i have one iris fully open by eye drops
Eliza Madrigal: doesn't sound fun
Eliza Madrigal: Anyone else? reports or questions today?

Tura Brezoianu: I find I'm way out of my depth on this section
Eliza Madrigal: I just made note of a little section about reflection amid awe: "Not another paradise or return to he all-providing womb, but a conemplative space which fosters the ongoing emergence of unfolding depth and richness....
Eliza Madrigal: This opening of mind via the expansion of inner space can then be viewed as the path toward the deeper reaches of reality."
Eliza Madrigal: So moving on from the alpha place of "K" into a more layered spaciousness and integration
Eliza Madrigal: is how I read that

--BELL--


Eliza Madrigal: like, the process is active at that point, so not reverting
Mickorod Renard: sounds good

Bleu Oleander: an interesting question might be to ask how it is we come to have so much faith in what our inner space is and what it can tell us when we look inward ... been thinking about that while reading
Eliza Madrigal: nicely worded question, Bleu
Mickorod Renard: I have been pondering that Bleu
Bleu Oleander: our minds can fool us
Bleu Oleander: at best we should remain uncertain :)
Eliza Madrigal: my answer is in my reading of the part I quoted... that it isn't so much inner over outer but that if stuck, more space can loosen the stuckness to get on the road again with a healthy process
Bleu Oleander: even the notion of "space" is an interesting one
Eliza Madrigal: so like in Maxine's vignette, she described a kind of stuck moment/dilema and needed the image of islands and oceans to relax her mind

Bleu Oleander: our choice of words might be influencing how we perceive our inner thoughts?
Eliza Madrigal: I'm sure
Eliza Madrigal: our choice of pictures as well
Raffila Millgrove: I liked that she was aware of competing realities.. that is always the challenge a therapist faces.. to hold onto more than one at a time.. to accept their are several competing ones.
Eliza Madrigal nods
Raffila Millgrove: and how welll that island and connecting sea imagery fits that situation.
Eliza Madrigal: and stability enough to suspend her held view about the person being spoken of

Mickorod Renard: when I am calm and think a bit,,rather than act out of rashness,,there s almost another self that says to me..well why didnt I think of that before,,or why did I act so rashly
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: the voice of hindsight
Eliza Madrigal: in advance
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Mickorod Renard: or ..if given time,,insight
Eliza Madrigal: nice
Raffila Millgrove: it is hard to be calm and not react sometimes. we often regret what we say or do.. reacting.. when we couldn't maintain control/calm and think.. what do i want to do or say here, if anything.
Eliza Madrigal: I'm a little more prone to regret what I didn't do, but that might go back to views, one person likely to read the negative space or positive space?

Eliza Madrigal: Tura, was there a particular part you felt was illusive?
Raffila Millgrove: in my family we allow re-dos all the time cause we tend to think and speak very quickly.. and that can have some unhappy consequences, so we let ourselves "redo" our replies all the time. we can be patient at least after the fact and allow each other to erase stuff.. and start again.
Tura Brezoianu: well... the whole parade of various people's theories
Tura Brezoianu: I think, where do they all come from?
Mickorod Renard: I can recall though, when I was younger and my father alive, I felt compelled to think in a diferent way just so I did not comply at all with my fathers wishes
Tura Brezoianu: Maybe you could just make up your own?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Tura Brezoianu: None of them really resonate with me.
Eliza Madrigal: that's understandable
Raffila Millgrove: lol. i thinnk that's reasonable idea in face of all those.. ideas. I didn't go for any of them myself.
Raffila Millgrove: it was "toomuch". I had to step back and re read and i got tired of the re reads and decided I could let it go and move along since it didn't match anything I observe or think.

Mickorod Renard: I guess we are close to needing Maxine to come and give us a final talk?
Eliza Madrigal: I've wondered sometimes how much research people do before going to see a therapist. When I've done so I was pretty specifically looking for a person with hypnosis background, so it was a filter
Eliza Madrigal: She's on a writing vacation now, but I'll ask when she comes back :)
Bleu Oleander: filter can be a bias too
Tura Brezoianu: I've never seen a therapist, so I don't know what this sort of thing is like face to face.
Raffila Millgrove: I had a social worker friend who said.. everyone should find a therapist when they are relatively normal, so the person ahs a baseline.. and then go see them when the crisis hits etc. it was a big joke between us. You're too screwed up to get a good therapist when you actually need one.
Mickorod Renard: great point Raffi
Bleu Oleander: not everyone needs or wants a therapist ... sometimes family and or friends will do
Eliza Madrigal: I definitely had a particular objective, and no family or friends who were anywhere near being able to understand what I was seeking
Mickorod Renard: I would only dare go to a therapist if I knew I was sane

Bleu Oleander: what are your thoughts on hypnosis?
Eliza Madrigal: good way to learn meditation :)
Raffila Millgrove: I think.. that for everyone in this life.. there might be a special unique time when they could benefit from a 3rd person who has counseling experience. might not be a "therapist" but definately not a friend/relative.. maybe their pastor or school counselor etc.
Bleu Oleander: what's the connection hypnosis and meditation?

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: The hypnosis didn't affect the stage fright/public speaking fear at all, but a lot of other things in my life changed for the better
Raffila Millgrove: maybe a life coach. a reiki healer.. etc. But we all seem to face something where we need help.
Bleu Oleander: interesting
Bleu Oleander: due to hypnosis?
Eliza Madrigal: for me, I guess I understand the book because Maxine describes what I went through well... I desperately needed someone to help me get into a spacious mind place
Mickorod Renard: I have always been skeptical of hypnosis
Raffila Millgrove: a lot of older people I know.. found some very good help in going to grief group counseling at a catholic church. seems like they have excellent prgoram to help people face a big loss.
Eliza Madrigal: so it was wonderful... and only later did I find out he was a zen practitioner himself
Eliza Madrigal: so much of what he taught me had its foundation there
Mickorod Renard: ah!

Bleu Oleander: how do you "see" a spacious mind place ... in your mind's eye?
Eliza Madrigal: teeny loops getting larger, chains of thoughts taking on more complexity and pause
Bleu Oleander: I'm very curious about this, many I know talk about it
Eliza Madrigal: not being so quick to react or turn against myself
Eliza Madrigal: lots of things
Agatha Macbeth: Here I am
Eliza Madrigal: was over ten years ago and I'd go back if I could... funds allocated differently now :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Agatha :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi Ags
Raffila Millgrove: Hi Agatha.
Eliza Madrigal: still need to overcome the stage fright!

Agatha Macbeth: My we're spread out
Agatha Macbeth: Stage fright?
Bleu Oleander: it seems to be related to the stories we tell ourselves
Mickorod Renard: I may be contagious
Tura Brezoianu: I read that for a moment as "spacious mind palace". A palace would be quite spacious :)
Eliza Madrigal grins at Mick
Eliza Madrigal: I love the mind palace notion :)
Bleu Oleander: waves to Aggers
Agatha Macbeth throws water at Bleuji
Bleu Oleander: ducks
Agatha Macbeth: Quack
Bleu Oleander: woof
Agatha Macbeth: ^.^
Eliza Madrigal: I don't think everyone should go to therapy, or should meditate, etc. I just know it was helpful for me

Mickorod Renard: I think its wierd for men too..in a slightly diferent way.......like for eg they dont like opening up
Bleu Oleander: that's great
Eliza Madrigal nods Mick
Agatha Macbeth: Which worked better for you Liz?
Eliza Madrigal: I heard from a counselor friend that she mostly sees men when they are forced to go
Eliza Madrigal: they are connected Aggers, since I learned to meditate and was in therapy at the same time
Agatha Macbeth: Ah
Eliza Madrigal: and I'm still learning to meditate anyway :)
Agatha Macbeth: Serendipity
Eliza Madrigal: felt that way
Bleu Oleander: just telling myself that my mind is like a palace makes it seem more expansive, and at the same time more like puffing my ego up a bit :)
Eliza Madrigal: lol
Bleu Oleander: funny huh?
Eliza Madrigal: if only your mind was a palace that would be ego
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Palace intrigues
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Bleu Oleander: the metaphors we use matter :)

Eliza Madrigal: what does your experience with art suggest?
Bleu Oleander: well similar actually
Tura Brezoianu: Scheming viziers usurping the absent king...
Bleu Oleander: how we visually depict things
Bleu Oleander: I prefer abstract :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: looks more like my mind LOL
Eliza Madrigal: instantly I think of the change that takes place in a room when you choose a work to include
Eliza Madrigal: can make a lot of space.. to hang the painting of the islands and ocean
Mickorod Renard: I am reminded about when I stopped smoking..i tried a few times and failed because I would blame restarting on those that frustrated me,,and actually believed that it was at thier cost that they would have to endure the smell . Eventually i came to realize that it was those that frustrated me that made it dificult to stop smoking and as such they were harming me more.......a simple twist on outlook ..made it posible to quit with no help and i never started again...having the space to think clearly is a luxury

Bleu Oleander: I have so many paintings, mostly mine, but a fair amount of others ... I find myself looking at my own more than the others and trying to figure out what I was thinking ... keeps me occupied in down time hehe
Agatha Macbeth grins
Bleu Oleander: nice Mick
Eliza Madrigal: you made room for different ways of seeing the same dilemma
Mickorod Renard: yes Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: I love your story behind the glass block paintings bleu.. it seems a good illustration of working with what could at first be felt as a limitation?
Eliza Madrigal: if I remember it correctly I mean
Bleu Oleander: yes!
Mickorod Renard: a change in thinking is so colse or simple yet when stressed it could be a universe away
Bleu Oleander: another way of seeing

--BELL--


Bleu Oleander: how to see the ordinary as extrordinary
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: will you give a refresher on that story? not sure if you can show a picture...
Mickorod Renard: I would love to hear

Bleu Oleander: that series was titled on the inside looking out
Bleu Oleander: briefly, I had a very boring view out my window
Bleu Oleander: I started seeing it through a glass block wall
Bleu Oleander: it transformed the view
Bleu Oleander: and I painted the images based on time of year and time of day
Bleu Oleander: it made me keening aware of the passage of time
Eliza Madrigal: like Monet :)
Bleu Oleander: nice, yes :)
Agatha Macbeth: Monet makes the world go round
Mickorod Renard: sounds wonderful
Bleu Oleander: the glass block wall was my shower ... I started setting up my tripod in the shower LOL
Bleu Oleander: to catch the light
Mickorod Renard: he he ,,cool
Eliza Madrigal pushes Agatha into the water
Eliza Madrigal: I love that!
Agatha Macbeth: I'm all wet!
Agatha Macbeth: Aha
Eliza Madrigal: the paintings themselves are wonderful, but even if not, the process is quite rich and telling
Bleu Oleander: the window on the left ... what I saw through the glass block
Eliza Madrigal: And I love that it isn't even that you organized or brought order by the process
Eliza Madrigal: you played
Bleu Oleander: yes :)
Bleu Oleander: consumed me for a year or so
Mickorod Renard: how amazing
Agatha Macbeth: Bleu consumée

Eliza Madrigal: I missed this, good to see it again :))
Bleu Oleander: so I have quite a few hanging and stacked up ha!
Eliza Madrigal grins
Bleu Oleander: the paintings are large 4 or 5 feet square
Bleu Oleander: time writ large :)
Eliza Madrigal: that's what therapy did for me too, lollol
Bleu Oleander: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Have you done any SL exhibits outside of PaB?
Eliza Madrigal: I had mind blocks ;-)
Mickorod Renard: I have almost given up painting as I have nowhere else to store them....wow they are big Bleu
Bleu Oleander: I did a few exhibits a while ago
Eliza Madrigal: I miss the process of painting ... is helpful even if innate talent alludes
Bleu Oleander: haven't painted since this series tho
Bleu Oleander: got into digital stuff LOL
Eliza Madrigal: you sure did

Agatha Macbeth: The one on the left does look a bit like Alcatraz I agree
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Bleu Oleander: ha! yes
Mickorod Renard: I have just started one..oil/acrylic
Tura Brezoianu: Are these both paintings? Or is the one on the left a photograph?
Agatha Macbeth: You could imagine a machine gun on top of the wall
Bleu Oleander: photo of window and painting through glass block
Raffila Millgrove: not talking about that.
Raffila Millgrove: oops sorry. ww
Bleu Oleander: so these made my inner mind space seem much more expansive
Bleu Oleander: created expressive inner worlds to get lost in
Eliza Madrigal nods
Agatha Macbeth: The painting has a look of one of Salvador Dali's watches about it...melting
Eliza Madrigal nods too... some surreal feeling
Bleu Oleander: yes, things seemed very surreal
Agatha Macbeth: Better than looking at a wall
Bleu Oleander: what ordinary glass block can do for you ha!
Eliza Madrigal: and vice versa
Mickorod Renard: he he
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: thank you Bleu
Mickorod Renard: yes, thanks

--BELL--


Bleu Oleander: yw! was fun to revisit
Raffila Millgrove: really interesting to see the two side by side.
Agatha Macbeth: The Bleu meaning
Eliza Madrigal: I find this painting so friendly and humorous somehow, but a deep humor
Raffila Millgrove: I agree.. it has whimsy without being cute. I kinda hate cute.
Bleu Oleander: these two images were used on the cover of a text book which was about interdisciplinary studies
Agatha Macbeth: Chacun a son gout
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, that's interesting
Raffila Millgrove: they could illustrate so many things. that was a good choice!
Bleu Oleander: seeing from multiple perspectives
Eliza Madrigal: makes me start humming a line from the Hamilton musical.. "I wrote my way out..." 
[ reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv1oR_k5f3w ]
Bleu Oleander: :)

Mickorod Renard: ok folks..I have to go..thank you very much to you all
Eliza Madrigal: Mick, keep feeling better
Agatha Macbeth: Be well Micko
Tura Brezoianu: bye Mick
Mickorod Renard: ty :)
Bleu Oleander: yes, feel better Mick
Eliza Madrigal: quiets the mind also, to just be with the painting
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I feel a little badly because with such limited space I've had to take down a few paintings given by a friend. I love them but have to change a lot to feel alive
Eliza Madrigal: but her process too, is fascinating... and it has been wonderful to see the changes
Eliza Madrigal: shifts in seeing
Bleu Oleander: its a revolving show at my house hehe
Eliza Madrigal: :) as it should be I think
Bleu Oleander: stimulating to change your environments I think

Eliza Madrigal: she was someone who started painting when in an abusive relationship... couldn't see her way, but started painting with her child's butter yellow paint... and a figure appeared in a corner...
Eliza Madrigal: she named it 'small in the corner'
Eliza Madrigal: and just kept painting like that.... until it took on a life of its own entirely
Eliza Madrigal: and became her livelihood
Bleu Oleander: amazing
Eliza Madrigal: really is...felt honored to see her make her way through all that
Eliza Madrigal: find space :)
Bleu Oleander: yep :)

Eliza Madrigal: Okay, I better go... am going to see a film with son tonight
Bleu Oleander: ok thanks all ... take care
Eliza Madrigal: thanks for being here everyone <3
Tura Brezoianu: Time for me also. btw, I won't be around for about a week now
Eliza Madrigal: and thanks again Bleu
Tura Brezoianu: Off to Helsinki tomorrow
Bleu Oleander: ty!
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, okay Tura... nice!
Bleu Oleander: oh, have a great trip
Agatha Macbeth: Wonder how Fc is?
Eliza Madrigal: a sane country
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: in many ways anyway ^^
Agatha Macbeth: Sibelius and Moomintroll
Agatha Macbeth: What more does one want?
Bleu Oleander: bye all
Eliza Madrigal: bye Bleu :)
Agatha Macbeth: TC Bleuji
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Tura :)
Agatha Macbeth: Got the log Liz?
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Agatha :)
Eliza Madrigal: And Raffi... when you get back
Eliza Madrigal: I'm going to get it now, thanks
Agatha Macbeth: The lady with the log
Eliza Madrigal: yup.... my log does not judge
Eliza Madrigal: haha... bye for now
Agatha Macbeth: Branching out
Agatha Macbeth: TC ♥