2017.08.28 13:00 - Exploring Reality Differently, with New Hosts!

The Guardian for this The Wisdom of Lived Experience - Views from Psychoanalysis, Neuroscience, Philosophy and Metaphysics meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aph :) You're here! No class today?
Aphrodite Macbain: No
Aphrodite Macbain: :-) It was cancelled
Eliza Madrigal: well, happy for us :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I wont have much to contribute as I haven't had a chance to read the text yet
Eliza Madrigal: This is the last week of this theme
Aphrodite Macbain: k
Eliza Madrigal: Oh... nor the session?
Aphrodite Macbain: this theme or this book?
Eliza Madrigal: we just talked about some of Maxine's impressions re PaB and Being
Eliza Madrigal: this book
Aphrodite Macbain: sorry I missed that
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi TUra
Eliza Madrigal: Thursday is the epigenetics chapter
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Tura :)
Aphrodite Macbain: oooh cool
Tura Brezoianu: hi Eliza, Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: (will have to look that word up to make sure I I understand is meaning)
Eliza Madrigal: would be great for Kori to attend that, since it is her field
Aphrodite Macbain: right! I'd forgoten

Eliza Madrigal: speaking of field... do you see the flowers marching across the field behind us??
Eliza Madrigal: oh, not flowers... faces...
Aphrodite Macbain: lol yes!
Aphrodite Macbain: a migration
Eliza Madrigal: Mr Bean
Aphrodite Macbain: erk
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Riddle :)
Riddle Sideways: Hello All
Riddle Sideways: this looks like a good place to eat lunch
Aphrodite Macbain: Bean's no flower!
Eliza Madrigal grins
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Raffi :)
Eliza Madrigal: Aph popped away?
Eliza Madrigal turned her head for a second
Raffila Millgrove: Hello Eliza, Aph, Riddle Tura.
Eliza Madrigal: aha, wb Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: strange
Eliza Madrigal: everyone looks summery today
Eliza Madrigal: gardening Raffi?
Aphrodite Macbain: It's hot here
Raffila Millgrove: oh .. RP. opening a garden store later today.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: the beans keep approaching but never arrive
Raffila Millgrove: Aph went to see the sim... not long ago.. and I end up joining the community and leasing a store/opening a business.
Aphrodite Macbain: souns like fun Raffi
Bleu Oleander: hi all :)
Raffila Millgrove: Hi Bleu.
Aphrodite Macbain: It's a cool sim

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu, and Agatha, landing in the lotus
Riddle Sideways: which sim?
Raffila Millgrove: it is. very thoughtful gorgeous build.
Agatha Macbeth: G'day
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi short shorts Aggers
Raffila Millgrove: Asphyxiation Point.
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, okay yes remember now
Aphrodite Macbain: Have you ever visited Sorrentina Raffi?
Raffila Millgrove: no. maybe you could hand me the LM Aph. I think you mentioned it before.
Aphrodite Macbain: It's a beautiful sim
Aphrodite Macbain: I will
Raffila Millgrove: ty
Aphrodite Macbain: 18th century
Raffila Millgrove: anyone want a LM to AP.. Im me ...
Eliza Madrigal: not yet :)
Agatha Macbeth: OK
Raffila Millgrove: you have to wear the tourist tag to visit... and not engage in any open chat. it's great to explore it just to see it.
Agatha Macbeth: IC

Eliza Madrigal: Time to begin?
Agatha Macbeth: Hit it!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: So some good news first.... Even though I won't be hosting these week day sessions, Agatha has offered to host on Mondays starting next week :)
Agatha Macbeth bows
Aphrodite Macbain: Yayyy Aggers!
Raffila Millgrove: oh ow super Aggers. thank you!
Agatha Macbeth: About time I did something again
Eliza Madrigal: **********Applause!!**********
Eliza Madrigal: **********Applause!!**********
Bleu Oleander: ty Aggers!
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Riddle Sideways: yayy
Agatha Macbeth: YW

Eliza Madrigal: Technically, Mick and I are co-hosts for Thursdays, but I've yet to be able to ask him whether he is ready to fly solo that day

                   [ update toward the end - Mick will host Thursdays! yay ]

Agatha Macbeth: Wonder how Solo is these days?
Agatha Macbeth: Brucie :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, everyone.
Riddle Sideways: nah! just throw Mick out of the nest to get him to fly ㋡
Bleu Oleander: hiya Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: imagine he is well, get occasional 3 SMS sites removed updates, hah
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce :)

Eliza Madrigal: And Bleu is here!
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bruce Mowbray: afk for a sec.....
Eliza Madrigal: ok
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Bruce
Agatha Macbeth pokes Bleuji
Bleu Oleander: new appreciation for tech :)
Eliza Madrigal: in the learning curve?
Bleu Oleander: being without it LOL
Agatha Macbeth: I appreciate it when it doesn't go wrong
Eliza Madrigal grins
Eliza Madrigal: that's the time to appreciate it... then one does all the appropriate back ups and maintainance
Aphrodite Macbain: solo gets around
 

Eliza Madrigal: Okay, so would anyone like to pick up where we left off last week
Raffila Millgrove: Mic was hosting one day for you Eliza and he did really good. in fact everyone does great when they are hosting.
Bleu Oleander: yes ... back ups are a GOOD thing :)
Agatha Macbeth: Where was that? :p
Eliza Madrigal: Raffi, for sure. Mick used to host Mondays for a long time years ago
Raffila Millgrove: yes. everyone is quite competent in that.
Eliza Madrigal: life is a little more chaotic for him now, so that's why I'm not sure
Eliza Madrigal: As for where we left off... hm....
Agatha Macbeth: Hm
Bruce Mowbray: Hm

Eliza Madrigal: it is a longish chapter but we talked mostly about Being, and Play as Being
Raffila Millgrove was going to host but stevenia was her mentor on that.. and .. they didn't quite get thru the technicals on it. all for the best i think.
Eliza Madrigal: and Maxine's comments re what the intention had been
Eliza Madrigal: vs. what seemed possible
Eliza Madrigal: roles and the bend toward leadership
Eliza Madrigal: Raffi if you'd like to host that would be marvelous... if not Stevenaia. I or someone else can help for sure
Raffila Millgrove: no no it's ok. carry on.... didn't mean to interrupt the flow.
Eliza Madrigal: no worries
Eliza Madrigal: :::opens the floor:::

Parent Surrogates

Bruce Mowbray: Maxine again raised the recurrent theme of sufficient infant nurturing.
Bruce Mowbray: and the consequence of insufficient nurturing.
Bruce Mowbray: I was wondering....
Aphrodite Macbain: nods- nurture more than nature
Bruce Mowbray: if other things my serve as surrogates for such nurturing.
Bruce Mowbray: (because I've had to find them in my own life, actully).
Aphrodite Macbain: things or people?
Bruce Mowbray: Surrogates such as pets, friends, nature.....
Eliza Madrigal: many, I'd imagine, serve for we as adults, but it still seems nothing can replace during actual childhood?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I had to seek them out when I realized (more or less mature - adult) that such a choice was possible.
Eliza Madrigal: I think as adults we even receive nurturing by nurturing
Bruce Mowbray: Good point.
Bruce Mowbray: Much as "if you become a teacher, by your pupils you'll be taught"
Agatha Macbeth: Yay Mick
Eliza Madrigal: nice, yes
Bleu Oleander: hiya Mick
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Mick.
Mickorod Renard: hello everyone
Aphrodite Macbain: As we mature, we can start nurturing ourselves, but as an infant, we need stable loving care takers
Eliza Madrigal: Do the 'things' that you have sought as an adult have correlates in childhood Bruce?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick :)
Bruce Mowbray: I think so, Aph.
Aphrodite Macbain smiles at Mick
Bruce Mowbray: yes, they have correlates from childhood. . .

--BELL--

Mickorod Renard: winks
Aphrodite Macbain: can you give an example?
Bruce Mowbray: My dog - in childhood, for example.
Bruce Mowbray: First thing I remember in life was his birth.
Aphrodite Macbain: awww
Eliza Madrigal melts
Bruce Mowbray: and dogs have always been my best companions throughout life.
Agatha Macbeth: Woof
Raffila Millgrove: I liked the mention that even one caring person around someone who is lonely/unhappy can help release that sick person ... i mean the immune system. that caring person will help the immune system regain it's powers.
Bruce Mowbray: also, simple natural scenes . . . Being nurtured and restored by them. Agrees with Raffi. . . nature can also restore healing.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods at Bruce - pets don't judge us but they do demand attention and sustenance
Eliza Madrigal nods
Agatha Macbeth: Hm, I wonder?
Bruce Mowbray: Pets' demanding my attention helps take me out of self-centeredness.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: you are rewarded by your generosity
Aphrodite Macbain: for your generosity
Bruce Mowbray: Anyway, I was just thinking about these things as I read his chapter.
Eliza Madrigal: When we got George, "for my son" it was like a miracle. I hadn't even remembered that the one stuffed animal I kept from childhood is a little stuffed blue dog. I spent a lot of time with dogs as a kid :) So I relate very much.
Bruce Mowbray listens for others' responses . . .
Bruce Mowbray nods emphatically to what Eliza just said.

Immune Function
 

Raffila Millgrove: "Nerulogically, the free energy, uncontained by cortical processes (attentive care gone awry) disrupts; immunilogocially, there is less resilience in the immune system. That is, less capacaity to protect against over-imflmmation in its combat against internal or external threats to the body"
Aphrodite Macbain: Interesting Raffi
Bruce Mowbray nods, interesting.
Mickorod Renard: yes, I am thinking hard about that, both recently and now
Raffila Millgrove: toxic people...reduce the immune's system to protect and combat disease. in others. this is why toxic situations are bad for your helath in including toxic people. The quote is from this chapter of the book.
Bruce Mowbray listens for more from Mick.
Mickorod Renard: no, ..I was just wondering whether I was toxic for my wife
Aphrodite Macbain: stressors like fear and anger stimulate cortisol production which somehow affects the immune system
Eliza Madrigal: inflammation
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Eliza Madrigal knows too much about all that :)
Aphrodite Macbain: :(
Raffila Millgrove: This is why I mention earlier in our sessions together that having all this stress in a national way in our country.. it's not good for any of us.. for our health. and it goes into the genetic menory which we pass along ....
Raffila Millgrove: we suffer now and later. in it.
Agatha Macbeth: oops
Bruce Mowbray nods, agrees with Raffi.
Aphrodite Macbain: inflammation and politicians cause so much grief
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Riddle Sideways: ㋡

Raffila Millgrove: doesn't really matter where you stand in your opinons, the general emotional stress is bad for all citizens.
Eliza Madrigal: quite difficult to stay aware and involved without riding the roller coaster
Aphrodite Macbain: although we all need a little stress to take action and make decisions
Bruce Mowbray: Engaging in rsistance/political action can be restorative, though. I heard several women say that the women's march pulled them out of depression.
Raffila Millgrove went under the desk ... with her book.. the same way she coped with bomb drills in the '50's.. read a book and wait for the bell to ring.
Mickorod Renard: there are many situations where we make situations more negative than they actually are as well
Bruce Mowbray: It also pulled me out -- and I didn't even march... just watched.
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes- action - when it's appropriate - can be very restorative
Eliza Madrigal: It felt good to do 'something'
Eliza Madrigal: even if symbolic
Bruce Mowbray: wb, Bleu.
Agatha Macbeth: WB Bleuji
Eliza Madrigal: wb Bleu :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi bleu
Bleu Oleander: ty!

Faith

Tura Brezoianu: It seems helplessness is the stressor, rather than the bad stuff itself.
Aphrodite Macbain: It's very stressful to see something bad happening and be unable to do anything about it
Eliza Madrigal: very good point
Aphrodite Macbain: yes Tura
Eliza Madrigal: Choices have to be made perhaps. Retreat is important too.
Mickorod Renard: yes Tura, the inability to stop harm to oneself
Raffila Millgrove: yes. I am taking the long view in it... but I can do this because i know other people, younger and more fit are out there.... resisting. I will stay home and support them. cause i did that already... the resisting etc.
Raffila Millgrove: as I child i was helpless in those bomb drills so i fell helpless right now.. but i will take action when I can see the opening.
Bruce Mowbray: I have been watching the voluntary rescuers in Houston all day. . . I am encouraged merely by watching and listening to them.
Riddle Sideways: well, stressful knowing a daughter might be at the wrong end of a park
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- they are prepared for action
Eliza Madrigal: oh Riddle, yes
Aphrodite Macbain: that is their reason for living
Aphrodite Macbain: The challenge is to know HOW to take appropriate action
Aphrodite Macbain: that's why we need good leaders
Mickorod Renard: and as we mentioned the other week, we in the uk have free health care..that is a huge relief and we dont realize it fully
Eliza Madrigal: and sometimes to accept that you aren't going to feel the results of your actions immediately all the time

Bruce Mowbray: sorry. Here's the right URL: http://abc13.com/live/

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: I've been watching almost non-stop since Saturday morning. Restores my hope in humanity.
Mickorod Renard: children have been a huge source of worry and stress to me....but they are also the greatest source of pleasure too...
Aphrodite Macbain: nods at Eliza- it helps to have a long-term view/plan of action.
Eliza Madrigal relates to that Mick :)
Eliza Madrigal: I was in my doctor's office this morning, and the assistant (wonderful lady) began to ask me, "Do you wake up in a panic of worry in the middle of the night sometimes?
Eliza Madrigal: she has 'kids' my own kids ages...
Eliza Madrigal: very similar patterns :)
Mickorod Renard: ah!
Aphrodite Macbain: why did she ask you that Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: because that's what she is going through....
Agatha Macbeth: Shouldn't the doctor being asking that? :p
Eliza Madrigal: wanted to check in :)
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Eliza Madrigal: well, we're friends too
Eliza Madrigal: helps to measure sometimes
Aphrodite Macbain: so you were her doctor in that case :-)
Mickorod Renard: its reasuring sometimes to discover that most parents feel that way
Agatha Macbeth: Go and lie on the couch
Eliza Madrigal: :) mutual comfort
Agatha Macbeth throws water over Liz
Eliza Madrigal: more relaxing than sofa

Mickorod Renard: I felt it for my dog when I was a child
Agatha Macbeth: A water bed
Bruce Mowbray: I did too, Mick.
Mickorod Renard: in those days dogs wandered around by themselves
Eliza Madrigal: true
Tura Brezoianu: so did children
Eliza Madrigal: also
Raffila Millgrove: anything goes wrong in your kid's life even when they are adults. (esp when the are adults and you can do nothing) it does cause sleepless nights.
Mickorod Renard: these days they are kept under control
Mickorod Renard: thats so true Tura
Mickorod Renard: I only went home to be fed
Agatha Macbeth: Poor Bleu
Eliza Madrigal: aw bleu....
Mickorod Renard: well..I would be the same now
Bruce Mowbray prefers "free range" dogs and kids, if possible. Out in the country it's probably more safe and more possible . . .

In the middle of the night...

Raffila Millgrove: i have to repeat mantra to myself: it will not help thse adult kids that you worry. it does nothing for them and it's bad for you. i tell myself this but it's not always that sucessful. but i try.
Bruce Mowbray: "Worry" is a tough nut.
Eliza Madrigal nods.... our small consensus was that we think we aren't worrying but in the middle of the night it is there
Bruce Mowbray: Yeppers. The demons come out at might.
Raffila Millgrove: I am very good at worrying and it's not a skill you want to improve. i am always trying to stop it.
Agatha Macbeth: Why then more than other times?
Bruce Mowbray: It probably an ancient genetic thing, Aph.
Mickorod Renard: great question Ags
Eliza Madrigal: body relaxed and mind free to try to 'fix' things?
Bruce Mowbray: aggers, I meant.
Agatha Macbeth: But it's mid-afternoon in Australia ;-)
Raffila Millgrove: it is a good question. why is it?
Bruce Mowbray: Ancient conditioning....
Bruce Mowbray: Darkness brings the unknown.... i.e., "danger"
Mickorod Renard: sometimes I seem to ride the stress no probs,,others it gets a hold of ya
Agatha Macbeth: I'm way too busy sleeping at that time to be worrying
Raffila Millgrove: because they didn't keep fires burning all night? i dunno. I am not a huge fan of trying to base our current lives on distant past.
Aphrodite Macbain: our senses are not effective at night
Eliza Madrigal: :) Agatha
Eliza Madrigal: I'm also more creative in sleep so it fits a certain kind of activity pattern
Aphrodite Macbain: If you were blind, would you feel differently about night?

Bruce Mowbray: Some things are beyond our conscious capacity to "solve." That's why I said, "Ancient genetic conditioning."
Eliza Madrigal: we seem to spend one part of sleep sorting through loose ends of the day
Raffila Millgrove: I read that across the centuries.. this pattern of 7-8 hrs of continued sleep. It is abstolutely NOT how people slept. they slept when they were tired.
Aphrodite Macbain: I get tired around 10:30
Agatha Macbeth: I thinks cats do it best
Bruce Mowbray: Some animals "sleep" with only part of their brain . . while the other parts remain awake.
Aphrodite Macbain: we have an inbuilt clock
Raffila Millgrove: humans .. all thru time. they didn't go on this sleep at night for 7 hrs straight schedule. it's very very recent in span of humans.
Agatha Macbeth: Dolphins have to do that so they don't drown
Bruce Mowbray: circadian rhythms.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I was thinking about dolphins.
Eliza Madrigal: staying in bed when you're wakened isn't a very good idea either... may create more tension
Tura Brezoianu: No electric light in those days
Raffila Millgrove: they took naps after noon meal. they took naps after eve meal .. they got up and night and did stuff by candle or small oil lamp.
Eliza Madrigal: light pollution is a biggie
Mickorod Renard: I had to get up as soon as I became lucid otherwise I would dwell on rubbish
Raffila Millgrove: they'd be bustling round at 11 pm.. doing things. with oil lamp in hand.
Mickorod Renard: but I am much better now
Bruce Mowbray: wb, Bleu-ji.

Aphrodite Macbain: I have been thinking about what Bruce was talking about earlier- who or what can become parent surrogates. I think my dolls were a constant source of company and attention. They always listened to me. It is nice to have someone who listens without interrupting or lecturing. :-)
Eliza Madrigal puts glue on Bleu's cushion
Bruce Mowbray nods to Aph.
Eliza Madrigal: oh, nice Aph. I don't think you've mentioned that before
Raffila Millgrove: oh gosh so true Aph. All my dolls (only child) were a huge family I took care of. I even had an iron the worked to iron their clothes.
Bleu Oleander: ty!
Bruce Mowbray: I felt that way about our english setter dog. . .
Agatha Macbeth glues Bleu to the cushion
Aphrodite Macbain: someone to talk to...
Raffila Millgrove: yes. they would be so patient and interested in whatever I said to them.
Mickorod Renard: I still have a teddy in bed..he is my body guard against flailing children should they make it into my bed during the night
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Tura Brezoianu: :)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Raffila Millgrove: yay Mick! that's so fab!!!
Bruce Mowbray ponders flailing children.
Mickorod Renard: yeh, feet in the sensitive parts
Aphrodite Macbain: Loves the image.
Bruce Mowbray: OUCH!

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal misses those days
Aphrodite Macbain: A plumbing problem in my building needs to be addressed so I have to poof

AI

Raffila Millgrove: you know when they did that AI robot experiment back East and they gave to elderly people and a few children.. everyone was so upset when the experiment ended. it was a big ethics problem .. to take them away. they left some.
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now, Aph.
Eliza Madrigal: good that you made it today Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: smiles
Aphrodite Macbain: bye everyone
Raffila Millgrove: bye Aph
Bleu Oleander: bye Aph
Mickorod Renard: ah, gotta take care of ur plumbing Aph
Agatha Macbeth: Byee
Aphrodite Macbain: someone has a leak
Eliza Madrigal: did they leave some, Raffi? I hadn't heard any follow up about that
Raffila Millgrove: they gave these robots to be companions to elderly.. and then they didn't think this thru. the elderly loved their robots.. it was a big.. prolem.
Agatha Macbeth: Not in the pool hopefully
Raffila Millgrove: yeah i read that they left some because people were so upset and freaked to lose their robot friends.
Agatha Macbeth: Artoo! Artoo!
Raffila Millgrove: i liked this because it'sa wondreful lesson in ethics in planning experiments.. AI.. seems esp.. open to a lot of screwed up endings.
Eliza Madrigal: perfectly understandable
Mickorod Renard: Raffi, I was telling my grand daughter about those the other day,,huge potencial in ai companions
Eliza Madrigal: I can totally imagine becoming attached to a robot, and with my elderly grandfather living a few hrs away on his own, I'd love to be able to know a robot was there
Raffila Millgrove: yes. that's going to end up being a huge part of ethics classes. all these AI issues. just huge.
 

Chatbots

Tura Brezoianu: There was the Eliza chatbot of the 60's, that people developed intense conversations with. Maybe there's an app for that nowadays.
Agatha Macbeth: We have our own version :p
Raffila Millgrove: yesh they have them. i have a bot in here.. that's connected to a server.. here in SL i have a companion i can chat and it replies in open chat to me.
Mickorod Renard: I have two cats on my iphone that need caring for too..(kids put them on)..they are a pain but I do buy into them strangely enough
Bruce Mowbray: There are several online chatbots, actually.
Tura Brezoianu: ALthough I wonder how healthy such a surrogate relationship could be
Raffila Millgrove: my sl compation.. she gave to me so i would not be alone when she couldn't be here.
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, yes. Riddle I think I heard about Eliza from you.. see, we can't help but be chattery
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Raffila Millgrove: she made it look like here and then programmed it.. to talk to me similiar to how she talked.
Bruce Mowbray: Amazing.
Raffila Millgrove: if i want to have her .. by me.. i can get out that.. bot from my inventory and she will talk to me.
Raffila Millgrove: like the old days.
Eliza Madrigal: wow
Raffila Millgrove: I dont' do it becuase it makes me cry cause I miss her.
Mickorod Renard: cool
Agatha Macbeth: Dea ex machina
Raffila Millgrove: in old days here in SL. there was a big AI community. they made great stuff. using real AI programs.
Mickorod Renard: I nearly got a carer but my wife wouldnt let me have her
Raffila Millgrove: Sl was perfect place to test these things.
Agatha Macbeth: 0.0
Riddle Sideways: Botty and Alice on the plot, sometimes
Mickorod Renard: :)
Eliza Madrigal: and bun bun?
Riddle Sideways: yes
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Eliza Madrigal: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/rad...ore-i-go?act=1
Agatha Macbeth: Bun fun
Eliza Madrigal: if you haven't heard about this, it is so touching....
Riddle Sideways: ty
Mickorod Renard: just looking now
Eliza Madrigal: so beautiful, had to pull over and cry the first time I heard it

What If...

Raffila Millgrove: ok well i want to say something about this.. book. about this final chapter. I love the "what if" question. it's in the book and if you read the chronicle--it's in adams interview with Maxine from around year one or two of PAB. and that is this question. If Piet had entertained Any of Maxines ideas.. about how to structure Pab.. about ways to explore.. "what if?"
Raffila Millgrove: she makes it very clear that this was his baby.. and tho he said he was not the leader, he was definately and completely so... and her ideas or suggestions were not used or wanted.
Eliza Madrigal didn't hear it that way
Raffila Millgrove: read the interview. she makes it very clear.
Raffila Millgrove: and it's here as well. this isn't opinon. it's in her own words.
Eliza Madrigal: I heard her as saying she learned over time
Mickorod Renard: I pondered on that..I was slightly confused as to its meaning
Eliza Madrigal: but I should read the chronicles again....
Eliza Madrigal: let me find the link
Raffila Millgrove: what you see in the book is her example of a different style of leadership.
Eliza Madrigal: that she experienced after pab
Raffila Millgrove: in this chapter.
Raffila Millgrove: yes she contrasts.
Eliza Madrigal nods
Raffila Millgrove: she is not complaining or criticizing. she is just saying.. how it went... that her ideas were not used.
Eliza Madrigal: ah, I see...yes
Raffila Millgrove: and I am saying "what if?"
Mickorod Renard: were there any specific idea's?
Eliza Madrigal: he was indeed very focused on the 9 seconds
Bleu Oleander: what is an example of one of her ideas not taken?
Agatha Macbeth: #9 dream

Maxine Walden: Now there is another aspect I should mention as it comes to mind:
Maxine Walden: that part of what I was also interested in, and felt would be explored would be
Maxine Walden: different ways of knowing, how each of us might be exploring reality, different ways to explore reality
Adams Rubble: Did that happen?
Maxine Walden: not really. On several occasions I brought some thoughts to Pema, but he seemed most interested in exploring the 9 sec and PaB as he was thinking about them.
Maxine Walden: At first that did not seem too much a problem, but after a few weeks I did begin to wonder about having to curb, our not being able to explore and value other ways, or being to learn from one another

Eliza Madrigal: https://wiki.playasbeing.org/Chronicles/Chapter_04%3a_The_First_Months/D._Maxine

Maxine Walden: I think there was another wondering that crept in: I seemed to be
Maxine Walden: in the doubting minority when Pema began to think expansively and buy land and turn a lot of attention to expansion.
Maxine Walden: I was fearing that the focus was being lost re the inward exploration and that worried me a bit Maxine Walden: I can now see things in a different light, but that shift did make me realize that I needed to stay boundaried by what made sense to me, could not just go along with others out of excitement

Bleu Oleander: I think each of us did and are exploring reality differently
Eliza Madrigal: yes

--BELL--


Mickorod Renard: I do recall, that it was often stresssed that it was not a self help group...but i found that if we were to experience living then freedom to express or enquire should have been without confinements..other than total madness.
Raffila Millgrove: yes. there it is.
Raffila Millgrove: ty Eliza.
Bleu Oleander: I think it was and is a mix of being with others and doing our own exploration
Eliza Madrigal: the self-help line was important but so tricky!
Raffila Millgrove: At first that did not seem too much a problem, but after a few weeks I did begin to wonder about having to curb, our not being able to explore and value other ways, or being to learn from one anothe
Raffila Millgrove: That is the part I am thinking of. LEARNING from one another.
Eliza Madrigal: a lot was defined because of recordings... and because there is no way to follow up outside of SL usually
Eliza Madrigal: if someone has a disturbance, etc

Self Help, Gurus

Mickorod Renard: yes, but I myself found this platform a great place to ..for the first time.....discover what other people actually thought,,and have people to compare ones own thoughts with
Eliza Madrigal: definitely
Raffila Millgrove: that's not self help. And that's what I noticed when i first came and what I talked about with Pema.. that it was almost a "guru" set up.. it felt like me.. his way or the highway. no matter how beautifully and carefully he spoke. that was how it felt when I looked at it as an observer.
Bleu Oleander: I never felt that any way of exploring "reality" was better than any other
Bruce Mowbray: I must be off. THANKS, everyone!
Bleu Oleander: bye Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: the conversation is certainly fascinating re the organizational level, but so much can't be seen ahead of time... always in flux
Agatha Macbeth: Scrape well Brucie
Eliza Madrigal: bye Bruce!
Mickorod Renard: bye Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: bye for now good people.
Riddle Sideways: funny, to not remember any of that
Bleu Oleander: I never felt that way Raffi
Raffila Millgrove: and as I said. i feel it changed a great deal over time.. and certainly in these sessions of speaking together on Maxine's book and the TSK.. there was huge amounts of "learning from each other".
Mickorod Renard: Pema was always gentle and accomodating of me...but I did feel held back
Raffila Millgrove: i am speaking of the past Bleu.. not current.
Bleu Oleander: yes me too
Eliza Madrigal: I was just so fascinated by everyone, by the whole dynamic
Bleu Oleander: yes
Eliza Madrigal: but I did write on my blog the first week that it was also a bit strange, hah
Bleu Oleander: just fun "to play"
Riddle Sideways: wondering how much that is each person's view point
Mickorod Renard: now then..I will be host on Thursday but I ask your help as I am a bit behind
Riddle Sideways: some had never been in leaderless orgainisations
Eliza Madrigal: there were a lot of workshops too, and patterns... one person attending could change things quite a bit

Eliza Madrigal: yay Mick! Yes...want to tell everyone that Mick will host Thursdays now :)
Eliza Madrigal: **********Applause!!**********
Eliza Madrigal: **********Applause!!**********
Agatha Macbeth: Go for it Micko
Tura Brezoianu: cheers Mick
Eliza Madrigal: Mick, it is okay to start next week... we'll be finished with the book
Bleu Oleander: leaders emerged in PaB over time but I felt no pressure to follow :)
Mickorod Renard: Thursday will run out of maxines book soon and there is no topic yet dreampt up for the future
Eliza Madrigal: :) Bleu

Tura Brezoianu: I wasn't here then, but if someone begins some work, and finds others to join in it, there's inevitably going to be a tension between the original purpose and the purposes that the others may bring.
Eliza Madrigal: that independence of exploration has been important
Tura Brezoianu: Not sure how that can be handled
Eliza Madrigal: that's it, Tura
Riddle Sideways: ㋡ yes Bleu, there was never any memos go out that is was pick on Bleu day
Eliza Madrigal: there was an aspiration toward leaderlessness that I've seen in several places
Eliza Madrigal: but very hard to find
Bleu Oleander: ha ha !
Eliza Madrigal: maxine says she experienced it
Eliza Madrigal: but a much shorter experiment it seems
Bleu Oleander: she's a leader too
Eliza Madrigal: yes, good point
Bleu Oleander: maybe too many leaders LOL
Eliza Madrigal: when no one leads, it gets odd too...
Bleu Oleander: yep
Mickorod Renard: true

Eliza Madrigal: :) so we're back to dynamic flux
Bleu Oleander: gentle nudging is better maybe :)
Mickorod Renard: shepherds are what we need
Riddle Sideways: when kids play... any one comes up with which game
Bleu Oleander: there were many leader kids when I was growing up
Eliza Madrigal: true... mostly. I remember one of my kids... poor thing was so stuck on rules, very hard to play with her, but if you did, she'd make something great
Eliza Madrigal: so not all kids were up to that

Raffila Millgrove: oops the time flew. bye guys. look to see you on Thurs.
Eliza Madrigal: bye Raffi
Agatha Macbeth waves
Bleu Oleander: bye Raffi
Mickorod Renard: like the school nativity plays..always a good amount of shepherds
Eliza Madrigal: hard for shepherds to take diff roles, but important
Mickorod Renard: bye raffi
Bleu Oleander: always had to play one of the 3 kings cause I was tall ha ha!
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
Mickorod Renard: he he
Riddle Sideways: there! that seat had no stick toes in pool
Eliza Madrigal: no wonder you won all the crowns Bleu
Bleu Oleander: yep
Agatha Macbeth: And the tiara
Bleu Oleander: was a king from the get go
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Mickorod Renard: ok,,must go now
Eliza Madrigal: okay, good to see you Mick
Mickorod Renard: thanks for the session
Agatha Macbeth: Happy kidding Mick
Eliza Madrigal: so happy and thankful these sessions will continue
Eliza Madrigal: whatever form they take :)
Mickorod Renard: yes, great surfing last week..now need to rest
Mickorod Renard: byeeee
Bleu Oleander: is this the last one on Maxine's book?
Eliza Madrigal: goodness, from shingles to surfing...
Riddle Sideways: by
Eliza Madrigal: Epigenetics is the last chapter
Eliza Madrigal: on Thursday
Bleu Oleander: ah ok
Agatha Macbeth: Epi what?

Eliza Madrigal: if it is interesting, we can continue but that's the last official section
Mickorod Renard: can you post that Eliza,,please?
Bleu Oleander: ok thanks
Eliza Madrigal: I'll try to send Kori an IM and see if she can come in
Eliza Madrigal: since it is her field
Mickorod Renard: cool
Eliza Madrigal: Yes, sure, Mick
Mickorod Renard: ty
Eliza Madrigal wonders why Mick doesn't arrive running
Eliza Madrigal: but always leaves running
Agatha Macbeth: We energise him
Eliza Madrigal: must be :)
Agatha Macbeth: Or something
Tura Brezoianu: thanks for the meeting

--BELL--

Agatha Macbeth: YW
Tura Brezoianu: goodnight all
Eliza Madrigal: I'll change the google calendar on the front page re host changes
Eliza Madrigal: thanks for being here Tura, Night
Riddle Sideways: g'nite
Bleu Oleander: bye all
Eliza Madrigal: Night Riddle, Bleu, Aggers
Agatha Macbeth: TTFN
Bleu Oleander: I'll try to have my tech working next time :)
Riddle Sideways: who changes the sign?
Eliza Madrigal: hope you enjoyed lunch Riddle
Riddle Sideways: good lunch, thanks
Bleu Oleander: that's me Riddle
Eliza Madrigal: Bleu changes the front one and I change google page
Bleu Oleander: and I'll change when Eliza sets new
Eliza Madrigal: I'll add next GM too, if I haven't
Eliza Madrigal: I forgot last time, so sorry

Bleu Oleander: next GM is fri?
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Agatha Macbeth: Oh what time?
Eliza Madrigal: 1 pm I think?
Eliza Madrigal looks
Agatha Macbeth: Here?
Eliza Madrigal: guardian meeting spot
Eliza Madrigal: yes 1 pm
Bleu Oleander: upstairs
Agatha Macbeth: OK
Eliza Madrigal: $5
Eliza Madrigal: #5 I mean
Agatha Macbeth: Eh?
Agatha Macbeth: Ah
Bleu Oleander: LOL
Eliza Madrigal laughs... money on the mind
Bleu Oleander: we could charge ha ha
Agatha Macbeth: Thought we had to pay admission
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Eliza Madrigal: more would come maybe
Riddle Sideways: or charge if missed
Eliza Madrigal: there ya go!
Bleu Oleander: there ya go
Bleu Oleander: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Snap
Eliza Madrigal: talk about gentle leadership
Eliza Madrigal: haha

Eliza Madrigal: okay, must walk doggo
Eliza Madrigal: hugs all around <3
Bleu Oleander: me too
Bleu Oleander: hugs
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Riddle Sideways: ok, George
Agatha Macbeth: Send some pics :p
Riddle Sideways: by All
Bleu Oleander: byeee
Eliza Madrigal: we should have a (another?) pet exhibit
Eliza Madrigal: bye!
Agatha Macbeth waves
Agatha Macbeth: Pet as being?
Agatha Macbeth: Hm