2017.12.04 13:00 - Jesus in the Garden, with Angels

The Guardian for this meeting was Agatha MacBeth. Eliza posted this session in order to do a wee bit of editing. :)

Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Aph!
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Hi!
Bruce Mowbray: How's your eye doing?
Aphrodite Macbain: My sympathies on your "tax reforms"
Bruce Mowbray: Oh yea, that. What crooks those Republicans are.
Aphrodite Macbain: It's hard to believe that it went through
Bruce Mowbray: Well, it still needs to pass the House - and then be signed by you know who.
Aphrodite Macbain: The Democrats had little time to even read it
Bruce Mowbray: NO ONE had time to read it, actually.
Aphrodite Macbain: I thought it passed the House and went through the Senate as well
Bruce Mowbray: The final drafts were acually hand-written!!
Aphrodite Macbain: I know- in the margins...
Bruce Mowbray: The first version passed the House, then was changed by the Senate, so now it has to go back to the House to be approved.
Aphrodite Macbain: I see
Bruce Mowbray: (some minor differences)
Bruce Mowbray: One big difference is that the House wants to keep the health insurance mandate, but the Senate does not.
Aphrodite Macbain: Could the next president change this?
Aphrodite Macbain: or amend it
Bruce Mowbray: No, once it's law - it stays unless subsequent legislation changes it.
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Tura.
Tura Brezoianu: hi Aph, Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: Sigh
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Tura

--BELL--


Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Mick!
Mickorod Renard: Hiya
Bruce Mowbray: My man of perpetual tea!
Tura Brezoianu: hi Mick
Mickorod Renard: hi
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya MIck
Mickorod Renard: one day i will work out how to detach it
Agatha Macbeth: Boo
Aphrodite Macbain: Are we talking about Chapter 10 today?
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Chapter 11.
Mickorod Renard: 11 I think
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Eliza.
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Eliza, Aggers
Eliza Madrigal: Hiyas
Agatha Macbeth waveth
Mickorod Renard: I guess there is no prob chatting about 10 as well
Mickorod Renard: Hi Liz
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, aggers.
Agatha Macbeth: You wild eyed cabbage you
Mickorod Renard: Hi ags
Eliza Madrigal: ^.^
Aphrodite Macbain: mon petit chou
Agatha Macbeth: The attack of the killer cabbage
Eliza Madrigal: Tag taken from Chapter 10... where Milton didn't want to associate with the hilltop wild-eyed cabbage planting nudists
Agatha Macbeth: Grrr

Mickorod Renard: I sorted a report but as it was kid mayhem here i closed laptop without saving so its gone
Agatha Macbeth: Oh them
Bruce Mowbray: J'ai un bref rapport.
Aphrodite Macbain: what do you remember?
Agatha Macbeth: Continuez Brucie
Mickorod Renard: it was too far back for me
Eliza Madrigal listens
Bruce Mowbray: kk, here goes....
Mickorod Renard: listens to Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: listens to Bruce then

Bruce Mowbray: If Milton intended for us to take “Paradise Lost” seriously, then his poem demonstrates the sheer absurdity of literal Biblical interpretation(s).
Bruce Mowbray: The poem ought not claim to be “theology” at all, but, rather, an extreme anthropomorphic (and ego-centric) fantasy –
Bruce Mowbray: right up there with Kentucky’s ridiculous Creation Museum: https://creationmuseum.org/about-the-museum/
Mickorod Renard: hi druth
Bruce Mowbray: Hi druth.
Eliza Madrigal waves to Druth
druth Vlodovic: hey guys
Bruce Mowbray: I judge “Paradise Lost” [as theology] harshly because Milton was not ignorant of theological tradition and the development of both Catholic and Protestant strains of Biblical interpretation.
Bruce Mowbray: Although I might grant him a pinch of reprieve due to his ignorance of scientific advances in subsequent centuries,
Agatha Macbeth: Bless him
Bruce Mowbray: for me, his epic poem seems more in the tradition of “Tristam Shandy” or “Gullivers Travels” than of Augustine or Aquinas. [done] p.s. Please don’t hate me.
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Agatha Macbeth: Gulliver's Travels was good
Aphrodite Macbain: They were both metaphors
Bruce Mowbray: But Swift intended it to be satire -- Milton did not.
Eliza Madrigal: I'm settled on seeing it as 'fan fiction', like Tura mentioned before, and can appreciate it a lot in that light.
Agatha Macbeth: What's a meta for?
Aphrodite Macbain: no idea
Bruce Mowbray laughs
Eliza Madrigal: thanks Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: yw :)

Aphrodite Macbain: I too am amazed that Milton believed the A&E story enough to make it an epic art work
Mickorod Renard: the other thing is, I guess as he recieved the story in such a strange way he must have had some thought that it was divine inspiration
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I agree, Mick.
Eliza Madrigal: good point
Bruce Mowbray: Everything seems to be built on that foundation.
Aphrodite Macbain: He believed what his church told him- but he didnt have a church, did he?
Bruce Mowbray: He was Protestant.
Tura Brezoianu: As theology, couldn't the same criticisms be made of Origen and Augustine? They also seem to have projected their own personal lives onto the text
Aphrodite Macbain: Protestants still believed in A&E
Aphrodite Macbain: I agree Tura
Eliza Madrigal: yet... there was enough arrogance about his own vision not to let theology get in the way of a story that moved him?
Aphrodite Macbain: Deep, thoughtful analytical thinkers believed the writings of the BIble
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Tura. . . but I don't think either Origen or Augustine made such an autobiographical tour-de-force of it.
Bruce Mowbray: (at least, that's what I gleaned from Goldblatt).
Aphrodite Macbain: Augustine's Confessions were an enormous tour de force
Bruce Mowbray: Oh for sure!
Tura Brezoianu: By Greenblatt's telling, there's a huge amount of personal stuff behind the Confessions
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Druthy
Bruce Mowbray: But his other works were more theological - like The City of God.
Tura Brezoianu: The main difference between Milton and Augustine is that they wrote in different mediums
druth Vlodovic: hi agatha
Tura Brezoianu: Epic poetry vs scholarly disputation
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, different media. . . epic poem vs. prose.
Mickorod Renard: there is that anagogi thing too and the 4 stage bit
Bruce Mowbray: For sure, Mick.
Aphrodite Macbain: different literary style
Bruce Mowbray: afk for a sec.

--BELL--

Tura Brezoianu: There's an interesting issue there: does seeing the personal roots of works like these diminish their stature?
Aphrodite Macbain: How would it?
Bruce Mowbray: Good question, Tura. I would say not -- unless the author intended for the work to become church doctrine.
Eliza Madrigal: it hasn't much in these cases
Mickorod Renard: I know in many spheres of divinity, even the mystical stuff..that there is another world beyond a veil..where things open up......maybe he was able to access that space
Eliza Madrigal: it is sort of a function of our general time to pick things apart like that?
Aphrodite Macbain: It's a beautifully written poem despite the unreal content
Bruce Mowbray: Consider the poems of Wordsworth, or Frost, -- one's understanding of their personal histories adds flavor to the poetry.
druth Vlodovic: my personal opinion is that it should be read for itself initially, but that additional information adds depth to understanding
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Mickorod Renard: yes, I would go along with that Druth\

Tura Brezoianu: As an unbeliever, I can appreciate PL the way I can appreciate the stories of the ancient Greek and Roman pantheons. But from that point of view, I dismiss Augustine out of hand. But a believing Christian might see it the other way round.
Aphrodite Macbain: It's interesting to read abaout Milton's life as it does inform our understanding of it
Bruce Mowbray agrees with druth.
Eliza Madrigal: As a person in this era, I would lose all appreciation if I tried to read it as literal
Aphrodite Macbain: although I wonder how a beautifully written poem come from such an impossible man
druth Vlodovic: I wonder if even in the day it wasn't mainly read for entertainment?
Eliza Madrigal: :) Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder who read it
Bruce Mowbray: (like "Tristam Shandy" and "Gulliver's Travels")
Mickorod Renard: this chapter had me looking at web pages trying to get a grip on original sin and Jesus 's take on things. I didnt find any secret doors opening,,but then maybe I had beeen there before,,and they were open anyway

Bruce Mowbray: Did others get the impression from Goldblatt's Chapter 11 that Milton actually believed the poem to be true?
Bruce Mowbray: I know I did.
Bruce Mowbray: Jesus had no concept of original sin.
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder if he believed in angels and archangels
Eliza Madrigal: yes, althoughit is hard to wrap my mind around that except by the thinking that he felt he received divine vision
Aphrodite Macbain: He lay in bed and imagined it first
Agatha Macbeth: Best way
Aphrodite Macbain: then dictated during the day
Mickorod Renard: I got the impression that he may have chosen to believe it as faith as much as anything else..sometimes one has to have faith in a subject as its imposible to prove either way with limited resourses
Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps he thopught his nocturnal imaginings came from god/
Eliza Madrigal: I had visions when a Christian... and we'd 'meditate' on a scripture and it might seem to come to life....and one would feel, "Ah, if I could show this!"
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Tura Brezoianu: The plotting of the fallen angels had to be made from whole cloth, or perhaps "piously imagined"
Bruce Mowbray: I think so, Aph.
Aphrodite Macbain: How odd
Mickorod Renard: the other thing is..if he believed in Jesus and Jesus at that time believed in Adam And Eve then he would have felt commited to follow Jesus's word
Eliza Madrigal: that's the most captivating part to me, because it came out of so little
Eliza Madrigal: (the complex angel world)
Aphrodite Macbain: The power of imagination
Bruce Mowbray: But that whole bit about the fallen angels made logical sense to Milton - in fact logic made it necessary, I felt.
Aphrodite Macbain: can convince one that our imaginings are real
Tura Brezoianu: Jesus would have been brought up with the Torah, but I don't recall him ever mentioning Adam and Eve
Eliza Madrigal: especially if there is no real contradiction...no Oliver Sacks ;-)
Aphrodite Macbain: true
Aphrodite Macbain: smiles
Eliza Madrigal: hm, thinks
Aphrodite Macbain: we need our Olivers
Bruce Mowbray: Right, Tura . . . and Original Sin is not a part of the Jewish tradition. It came in with Paul and Augustine.
Mickorod Renard: withe bit re fallen angels allows for sin to be in the world outside of Gods plan
Eliza Madrigal: Job is the oldest book of the bible I think?
Bruce Mowbray: Right!
Bruce Mowbray: (@ Mick)
Mickorod Renard: He did mention A and E in respect of a couple of things,,one being marriage
Aphrodite Macbain: how did he mention them?
Bruce Mowbray: "That which God has put together let no man put asunder."
Bruce Mowbray: ??
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: but A & E aren't mentioned there
Bruce Mowbray: I don't recall Jesus ever mentioning A and E, actually.
Mickorod Renard: something to do with man leaving his mother and father and being one flesh etc
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe it was Adam and Steve
Bruce Mowbray: Ha ha!
Aphrodite Macbain: giggles
Bruce Mowbray dies from laughing....
Aphrodite Macbain: that would never be allowed
Mickorod Renard: shame I lost that report

Bruce Mowbray: Well, that rib pulled from Adam's left side would have had male DNA, right?
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Tura Brezoianu: Come to think of it, didn't God literally put Adam and Eve asunder?
Agatha Macbeth: Poor Mick
druth Vlodovic: Jesus didn't own a bible, I wonder if he had heard the story
Aphrodite Macbain: He did? I thought he kicked them out of the garden - that's all
Eliza Madrigal: he could have just left adam as a more male/female balanced one person
Bruce Mowbray: @ Tura - God put them asunder from the Garden, but from each other?
Eliza Madrigal: adama
Tura Brezoianu: Ripped out a rib!
Aphrodite Macbain: madama I'm adama
Agatha Macbeth: Spare rib
Bruce Mowbray: Ha ha!
Eliza Madrigal: Greenblatt doesn't mention Job, but I brought it up because it gives more of a feeling of satan, but, makes him sound like a gambling partner. I can see how someone might have built more of a whole world around that.
Bruce Mowbray: Excellent point, Eliza!
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- satan tests Job's faith, doesn't he?

--BELL--


Eliza Madrigal nods
Bruce Mowbray: God and Satan make a bet about Job.
Aphrodite Macbain: remembers
Aphrodite Macbain: poor guy
Aphrodite Macbain: all those ashes
Eliza Madrigal: "no problem, I'll just give you a new wife and kids and all fine" :P
Bruce Mowbray: Interesting parallel with the Garden fo Eden, although I'd never thought of that before now.
Aphrodite Macbain: and dung, I think
Bruce Mowbray: and sores . . .
Eliza Madrigal nods
Aphrodite Macbain: no wonder
Eliza Madrigal: conjures the feeling of the two men in the sky playing chess with the affairs of men

Aphrodite Macbain: I am always amazed how great thinkers- like Kant, or MIlton or Kierkegaard still believe in god. Are able to make that irrational leap.
Aphrodite Macbain: It's like they drop their thinking at the door
Bruce Mowbray: For Kierkegaard, it truly was a leap of faith.
druth Vlodovic: if you have a personal disaster and can't personalize it it is a bit deflating, "DAMN YOU.......fire, I guess."
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: not just DAMN YOU but HELP!
Bruce Mowbray: "Why did God let this happen to me?" is a very common thought.
druth Vlodovic: hard to change thinking into a purely non animistic mode
Aphrodite Macbain: Many atheists and agnostics did but it took courage to let people know what they believed
Eliza Madrigal: also, I think it can be a kind of humility
Aphrodite Macbain: although MIlton was happy to challenge marriage and divorce laws
Mickorod Renard: one day they will re write einstiens stuff for a better version....but einsteins might be easier to comprehend
Agatha Macbeth: Light speed plus
Aphrodite Macbain: Einstein doesnt require a leap of faith - just excellent mathematical skills
Eliza Madrigal nods... we still don't know all that much... just enough perhaps to curse aloud and not be afraid of being struck by lightning
Aphrodite Macbain: I swear
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: zx;ljf;alsihlenjgn/lksfbnv/z;sknmvaslglee8
Bruce Mowbray: me loves "Kevin Probably Saves the World" (on US TV)
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Agatha Macbeth: Easy for you to say :p
Aphrodite Macbain: doesnt get that
Aphrodite Macbain: (that was me swearing)
Eliza Madrigal: oh
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
Bruce Mowbray: "Kevin Probably Saves the World" is a weekly sitcom on ABC-TV.
Agatha Macbeth: Thought you were cleaning yer keyboard
Eliza Madrigal: have never heard of that Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: thought Bleu's puppy snuck in
Bruce Mowbray: It's a FINE program - I wouldn't miss it.
Agatha Macbeth: Woof
Aphrodite Macbain: turns up her audio
Eliza Madrigal googles, although I don't have reg TV...
Bruce Mowbray: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt6474174/

Aphrodite Macbain: Druth - have you had a chance to read any of your Paradise Lost?
Aphrodite Macbain: Did it make any sense to you?
Tura Brezoianu: "Kevin later sees a vision of a flaming gazebo." Perfect sense. :)
druth Vlodovic: I got as far as downloading it, and watching a movie based on it
Aphrodite Macbain tries to imagine a flaming gazebo
Aphrodite Macbain: a movie about Paradise Lost? Cool
Agatha Macbeth: Keeps the garden warm
Aphrodite Macbain: grins
Eliza Madrigal: ha ha
Mickorod Renard: we often need to dig in real deep to find the strength with ourselves to get out or through something. Reaching out to God or something like that can provide something. Even if things go wrong one can find inner resolve to recover through spiritual beliefs..no matter how crazy they may seem
Mickorod Renard: works for some, not for others

Tura Brezoianu: I recently discovered that Dryden made a stage version, rewriting it into rhyming couplets. This was in Milton's lifetime, with his permission.
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder why Dryden did that
Mickorod Renard: many folks living in Miltons time must have needed something spiritual through lack of other things,,like food ,medication etc..prayer is a ready available commodity
Eliza Madrigal: that's nicely put, Mick. I think ultimately, no god or yes god is just way too simple... for instance Hinduism was a lot of practices until it was called a religion for census reasons and people become forced to settle into a kind of trap of belief/non belief.
Mickorod Renard: just like love
Bruce Mowbray: just like Buddhism.
Eliza Madrigal nods
Tura Brezoianu: Apparently Dryden admired Milton as a great poet, although they were politically opposed

--BELL--


Eliza Madrigal: how interesting
Eliza Madrigal: http://www.umsl.edu/~gradyf/2310/miltonrep1.htm
Aphrodite Macbain: That's really interesting Eliza
Mickorod Renard: thinks of Obama and Trump
Aphrodite Macbain: I'd prefer not to
Mickorod Renard: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: makes me sad
Mickorod Renard: surely one must be a poet
Mickorod Renard: golf,,they both play golf
Aphrodite Macbain: Well, it's not Obama
Aphrodite Macbain: who makes me sad

Aphrodite Macbain: It's that who issue of whether we can admire an art work by an evil person
Mickorod Renard: Hitler was an artist
Aphrodite Macbain: Like Ezra Pound who was a Nazisympathizer
Eliza Madrigal: not a very good one
Agatha Macbeth: Two coats
Bruce Mowbray furls brow in thought.
Aphrodite Macbain: can we separate the artist from her work?
Mickorod Renard: maybe we have deviated
Agatha Macbeth: Nothing wrong with that
Tura Brezoianu: Think of the Kevin Spacey matter. Should "House of Cards" and all his other works now be boycotted?
Aphrodite Macbain: Deviation can be fun
Bruce Mowbray ponders himself as deviated.
Mickorod Renard: thats a good topic Tura
Eliza Madrigal: it certainly changes a work when one knows more than they wanted to
Mickorod Renard: there were many other actors in House of Cards
Bruce Mowbray: How about Joseph Levine?
Eliza Madrigal: Spacey was one of my favorite actors and I watched Charlie Rose for 10 years nearly every day...
Agatha Macbeth: How about him?
Aphrodite Macbain: yes! Ouch
Bruce Mowbray: Charlie was (and still is) one of my heroes.
Eliza Madrigal: pedestals are impermanent
Aphrodite Macbain: So we can admire a person whose morals we don't like?
Aphrodite Macbain: or actions
Eliza Madrigal: for me the larger issue is a culture that is changing, and we can't/shouldn't get in the way of that
Bruce Mowbray: We can admire the WORK of persons whose morals we don't like, yes.
Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps we can admire their WORK but not the person.
Mickorod Renard: I think so..we dont really know anyone,,even barely ourselves

Eliza Madrigal: after the major part of the storm is over, I'd like to know why perfectly sleepwithable people feel the need to coerce others?
Bruce Mowbray: I have compassion for persons who have civil wars going on inside themselves. . . Many souls competing with each other, it seems.
Tura Brezoianu: "Use every man after his desert, and who should 'scape whipping?"
Agatha Macbeth nods
Aphrodite Macbain: I dont understand what you mean Eliza
Bruce Mowbray: "Let that person without sin cast the first stone."
Mickorod Renard: and there is forgivness and redemption
druth Vlodovic: I do wonder, it isn't like these people would be hard up for dates
Eliza Madrigal: yes, that's what I mean
Bruce Mowbray: Good question, Eliza. I suspect it has more to do with power than with libido.
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: or the power of libido
Bruce Mowbray nods @ Aph.
Mickorod Renard: many sleepwithable people dont have confidence to make normal moves
Agatha Macbeth: Freud time!
druth Vlodovic: maybe they get full of themselves and see any rejection as a personal insult and disrespect
Bruce Mowbray: . . . and many power-driven people make far too many moves.
Mickorod Renard: I have to walk around with a note tied around my neck
Eliza Madrigal: it takes a lot of confidence to expose yourself to someone who showed no interest in your doing that....
Eliza Madrigal: I'm wary of witch hunts, but glad if there are some changes
Aphrodite Macbain: most people are vulnerable to disrespectful behaviour
Mickorod Renard: many like it..and I wonder whether they are coming out the closet now to make some money or notoriety
Aphrodite Macbain: what would the note say, Mick?
druth Vlodovic: vulnesable?
Bruce Mowbray: @ Aph - especially in hierarchical systems where one expected to "serve" or get fired.
Mickorod Renard: married and untouchable
Eliza Madrigal: most, not all, are coming out because the culture is giving a safer place to do so
Mickorod Renard: sadly
druth Vlodovic: lol
Mickorod Renard: :)
Eliza Madrigal: thinking that it may make an inkling of difference down the road
Aphrodite Macbain: disrespect hurts most people, whether friend, foe or bozz
Aphrodite Macbain: boss or employee
Bruce Mowbray: #MeToo is on the short list for "Person of the Year" (TIME Magazine)
Aphrodite Macbain: concept of the year?
Mickorod Renard: I am just waiting for the time I will be had up for smoking in someones presence years back
Eliza Madrigal: that seems making a bit of light :)
Bruce Mowbray: http://time.com/5045719/time-person-...017-shortlist/
Aphrodite Macbain: as long as it's not Trump
Bruce Mowbray: Time to scrape. THANKS, everyone!
Aphrodite Macbain: bye Bruce
Eliza Madrigal waves to Bruce
Mickorod Renard: cheers Bruce

--BELL--

Agatha Macbeth: Scrape well Brucie

Tura Brezoianu: How far back does it make sense to judge the past by the present?
Mickorod Renard: do u have that comedy show ';3rd rock from the sun' or something?
Tura Brezoianu: I've heard of that, never watched it
Eliza Madrigal: quite a question Tura
Aphrodite Macbain: I think holding grudges is counterproductive
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, yes Lithgow... 80s?
Mickorod Renard: my 7 yr old gdaughty is now watching it and rolling around laughing all the time
Aphrodite Macbain: dont you Tura?
Mickorod Renard: yes, I ask that of myself all the time these days
Eliza Madrigal: :) what an odd show for a 7yo to like
Aphrodite Macbain: never heard of it
Tura Brezoianu: Yes, grudges make no sense, "like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die"
Aphrodite Macbain: smiles
Mickorod Renard: and I think of all the things I have done in the past that was totally inappropriate
Aphrodite Macbain: nice metaphor Tura
Eliza Madrigal: I don't think exposing people who are still perpetuating certain behaviors is holding a grudge though?
Tura Brezoianu: *shockhorror* Jesus ate meat!!!!
druth Vlodovic: the devil is in the details
Eliza Madrigal: the past norms were different, which matters, but there are some clear lines
Aphrodite Macbain: true Eliza
Eliza Madrigal would be horrified if flirting was outlawed! :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Not an easy issue
Tura Brezoianu: And then, there are some things I'd entirely support "never forgive, never forget"
druth Vlodovic: there is nothing wrong with saying "this person did these things we think are bad but he thought were good"
Eliza Madrigal: I made a list, a personal one, when #metoo started...
Eliza Madrigal: it was a spectrum
druth Vlodovic: trying to impose a single indivisible code of conduct on all people in all situations at all times in all cultures is overtly religious
Mickorod Renard: flirting list?
Aphrodite Macbain: like attacking people sexually?
Agatha Macbeth: What's metoo?
Aphrodite Macbain: It's overtly stupid
Mickorod Renard: you could try a flirting list on me
Eliza Madrigal: a few things were awkward, a few weird and judgeable from the outside, and a few I should have filed complaints about
Agatha Macbeth: Riiight
Eliza Madrigal: each was very clear
Aphrodite Macbain: All the women who were abused sexually by poerful men
druth Vlodovic: #metoo is people declaring they were sexually assaulted
Eliza Madrigal: most people are only counting very clear scenarios
Agatha Macbeth: Thanks
Mickorod Renard: or women Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: It's gone viral Aggers
Aphrodite Macbain: nods @ Mick
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe there's a cure
Aphrodite Macbain: off with his hand!
Mickorod Renard: if I was powerful then I would be a gonna
Aphrodite Macbain: "abuse of power comes as no surprise"
Eliza Madrigal: the thing is, being heard and understood is important for many women, else they carry shame and can't find the lines for themselves
Eliza Madrigal: not just women actually
druth Vlodovic: it isn't power if you can't abuse it
Mickorod Renard: good point Druth
Aphrodite Macbain: No abuse is everywhere
Eliza Madrigal: it is a teaching moment :)
Aphrodite Macbain: but it is powerful people who feel they can
Eliza Madrigal: not always greatly powerful.... but yes in general
Aphrodite Macbain: they feel they can get away with things
Agatha Macbeth: Right I'm orf
Mickorod Renard: there is no end to it,,for eg,,bodily violence is obvious,,but mental abuse may start to creep in and then many women could be vulnerabble to accusations
Agatha Macbeth: Toodles ♥
Aphrodite Macbain: bye Orf
Eliza Madrigal: bye Agatha :)
Mickorod Renard: bye Ags
Aphrodite Macbain: children are the most vulnerable
Eliza Madrigal: but I think it is important to speak in personal terms sometimes
Mickorod Renard: sexual starvation abuse,,that one
Eliza Madrigal: so many cases... and so many women raised to be 'nice'
Eliza Madrigal: so doubt themselves
Mickorod Renard: well, I had better zoom away..thankyou lots for a fun session
Eliza Madrigal: :) me too
Aphrodite Macbain: bye Mick
Mickorod Renard: be well everyone
Eliza Madrigal: bye Mick
Aphrodite Macbain: waves
druth Vlodovic: ttfn
Tura Brezoianu: thanks for the discussion
Tura Brezoianu: goodnight all
Eliza Madrigal: ntsy, thanks very much