2017.12.18 13:00 - on Asking and Courage

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal, filling in for Agatha MacBeth. 

Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Mick
Mickorod Renard: Hi Aph
Mickorod Renard: just heard of a train de railment in Seatle
Aphrodite Macbain: How are things?
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes...not far from Calvino
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Wliza
Mickorod Renard: yikes
Mickorod Renard: Hi Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aph, Mick
Mickorod Renard: Wliza sounds good
Eliza Madrigal: I'll claim until agatha gets back :)
Aphrodite Macbain: oops
Eliza Madrigal: I was thinking that too... hehe
Mickorod Renard: especially in that wiz dress
Aphrodite Macbain: the wizard in you
Eliza Madrigal: The other day I read: "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wizard to know the difference."
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Mickorod Renard: he he ..nice saying
Aphrodite Macbain: it needs a bit of magic
Eliza Madrigal: certainly does
Aphrodite Macbain: especially at this time of year
Mickorod Renard: oh yeh,,I am going round in circles,,mad
Aphrodite Macbain: How are you both holding up?
Aphrodite Macbain: mad because of the new baby or mad because of Christmas
Aphrodite Macbain: ?

Mickorod Renard: I should be doing well, but am waking early feeling stressed over nothing
Eliza Madrigal: aw
Aphrodite Macbain: wonder why
Eliza Madrigal: that seems natural, but it would be good to do something to calm yourself before bed
Eliza Madrigal: I went through a lot of that kind of anxiety last year... would feel fine, but would wake awfully
Aphrodite Macbain: Meditation is a great way to get underneath your feelings
Mickorod Renard: i dont know, its a problem with remembering dreams too..as you dont get to escape them
Mickorod Renard: yes, sounds same Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: perhaps have to expand to rise to the occasion (baby, etc)
Aphrodite Macbain: all those hormones (cortisol?) that keep racing round your blood system
Eliza Madrigal nods
Mickorod Renard: I dont know how folk cope when they have tons of kids..
Aphrodite Macbain: me neither

Eliza Madrigal: I just came from the Kuan Yin meditation at Storm's
Mickorod Renard: yes?
Aphrodite Macbain: I have a hard time managing my cats
Eliza Madrigal: :) hadn't been in a while, felt really nice
Aphrodite Macbain: and?
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm glad it's still there
Eliza Madrigal: I've been using Insight Timer a lot too
Eliza Madrigal: because I've been too jumpy to just meditate... guided meditations have helped a lot
Aphrodite Macbain: Did you find the little blue mediation house Storm built?
Mickorod Renard: meditation is something I have never done,,i am a doer, and find escape from creating something
Eliza Madrigal: yes that's where I was
Aphrodite Macbain: It's a great guided meditation
Eliza Madrigal nods
Aphrodite Macbain: oh good it's still there :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I couldnt find it
 

Eliza Madrigal: painting, Mick?
Eliza Madrigal: I went to the Kuan Yin Oracle too
Mickorod Renard: I did a painting the other day, but i need space and time
Aphrodite Macbain: what did you find Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: received a little poem (love these):
First a crystal, cold and brilliant.
Then a sheet, thin and brittle.
Ice forms - releasing your burden, unfreezing your simplicity.
Aphrodite Macbain: lovely

Eliza Madrigal: what is keeping you so busy Mick? kids out of school?
Mickorod Renard: needs some thinking over
Eliza Madrigal: mhm
Mickorod Renard: they are still in school but today I had tennis and then shortly after a 2 year old and then a phone call saying parents couldnt get the two from school so I had to
Aphrodite Macbain: Is it your daughter who is about to deliver a child?
Eliza Madrigal: so they count on you continually it seems
Mickorod Renard: drive two year old then carry her as no shoes..and then go to walk back as car is two seat
Mickorod Renard: son is mine
Aphrodite Macbain: k
Mickorod Renard: daughter in law
Eliza Madrigal: children are the biggest joy imaginable, which sometimes makes one feel they can't admit they are also a lot of work
Eliza Madrigal: it isn't easy including another person in every thought you have :)
Mickorod Renard: yes, the kids are great,,but the parents are still so young and put on me

--BELL--

Mickorod Renard: 2 year old is hard work,,she is into everything,,and although out of nappy she will get a potty and then if I am not quick will carry it and spill the contents
Aphrodite Macbain: terrible 2s
Mickorod Renard: yes
Mickorod Renard: in the end i gave up on everything and allowed her to do stage diving onto me for an hour

Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder whether anyone else is coming. I even read chapter 12!
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Eliza Madrigal: it doesn't seem like anyone will arrive...
Mickorod Renard: well..we can do a session
Eliza Madrigal: I know Agatha is especially busy this time of year
Aphrodite Macbain: oh? why>
Eliza Madrigal: I read 11
Eliza Madrigal: work related/holiday related
Mickorod Renard: I have to admit, I am loosing interest in the book
Aphrodite Macbain: ?Bruce did a presentation Chapter 12 on Thursday
Eliza Madrigal: I sort of lost my rhythm but still like it... I sort of want to just read to the end already :))
Mickorod Renard: I can't remember Thursday
Aphrodite Macbain: I guess there's too much to do.
Eliza Madrigal: ohh wait...yes I did read 12
Eliza Madrigal: (just looked it up)
Aphrodite Macbain: Maybe we should resume these discussions next year....

Mickorod Renard: anyway, it was that payret guy
Mickorod Renard: or something like that
Eliza Madrigal: I found the chapter interesting for sure...
Aphrodite Macbain: me too
Mickorod Renard: and he had a history of asking questions
Aphrodite Macbain: what did you think about it?
Eliza Madrigal: once the cards start to fall it is hard to stop them
Mickorod Renard:like for eg,,where did Cain get his missis from?
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Eliza Madrigal: right
Eliza Madrigal: most of his ideas make much more sense, if you are trying to keep the story
Mickorod Renard: and also all them cities they had built but for whom?

Aphrodite Macbain: I suppose there were many who wondered but few who had the courage or ability to put their questions into words
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: times even more precarious than these
Mickorod Renard: good point Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: I liked the wording he used when he recanted
Eliza Madrigal: oh! me too. Greenblatt didn't focus on unpacking it but it felt like it had a wink beneath? comparing to Copernicus?
Aphrodite Macbain: he said something like 'even though my conclusions are rational the Pope has the final say"
Eliza Madrigal: :))

Mickorod Renard: personaly i think most folk didnt care,,they assumed it was metaphorical and that at some past there were two people,,and maybe a God was involved
Aphrodite Macbain: If they didnt care, why were they going to kill him?
Eliza Madrigal: power cared
Mickorod Renard: maybe someone rounded it up a bit for the sake of shortening the story
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: fear of things unravelling
Eliza Madrigal: trying to imagine the common feeling is hard
Eliza Madrigal: but it seems that more related to Milton
Aphrodite Macbain: Makes me think of Trump and the ruling out of 7 words

Mickorod Renard: yeh,,its a case of challenging and de stabalizing the establishment
Aphrodite Macbain: The church is the slowest institution to change
Eliza Madrigal: common people have always lived with 'official versions' of their religions, and then the mythical/mystical or personal
Mickorod Renard: I used to do it lots..in fact I still do,,school is a great parallel
Aphrodite Macbain: I have been reading about the rise and development of Islam
Mickorod Renard: oh? listens
Aphrodite Macbain: and how the fundamental beliefs dont change
Eliza Madrigal: please say more :)
Aphrodite Macbain: while the rituals and actions do

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Tura :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi TUra
Mickorod Renard: Hi Tura
Tura Brezoianu: hi all, lost track of the time
Aphrodite Macbain: Easy to do :-)
Tura Brezoianu: definitely not Unusually Alert
Eliza Madrigal: :) no worries, holiday time
Mickorod Renard: do you suppose that that is to maintain the centre structure of its system?
Eliza Madrigal: lol  [Tura was referencing my tag, which was referencing Chapter 12]
Mickorod Renard: the nucleus?
Eliza Madrigal: can think of it top down vs bottom up maybe....
Eliza Madrigal: with the bottom more chaotic and quick to change
Eliza Madrigal: immediately responsive
Aphrodite Macbain: yes the central or original structure is the glue
Eliza Madrigal: the taller the tower maybe the less the top and bottom communicate
Mickorod Renard: you suspect that like a pyramid system the top need to keep the integrity of what is below for their own security?
Aphrodite Macbain: that is where I understand fundamentalism is based
Eliza Madrigal: I think it seems like that... but (the poles) lose touch
Mickorod Renard: yes, where something thins out it can get unwieldly

Aphrodite Macbain: I think of it more as a circle, with the fundamentalist beliefs at the centre

--BELL--

Mickorod Renard: ah, the centre becomes a nucleus
Aphrodite Macbain: and if they are challenged, the centre doesn't hold!
Eliza Madrigal: and the rest scatters
Aphrodite Macbain: things fall apart
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: The church was afraid of that
Eliza Madrigal: Tura how did you feel about chapter 12?
Mickorod Renard: although I am well out of religious practice and rearely go to church, I am quite shocked at how over here there seems to be an undermining of religion,l ike christmas is now looseing its Christ

Tura Brezoianu: Not sure about feeling, but I can say what's in it.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Tura Brezoianu: Peyrère asked these awkwards questions,
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- it's more about Santa and his sleigh of goodies
Tura Brezoianu: about Cain's wife, and how he could found a city when there were hardly any people in the world
Mickorod Renard: well remembered Tura
Tura Brezoianu: and explorers found nativegoing naked and unashamed, so he deduce there were "Men Before Adam", wrote a book, but was made to recant in the end.
Aphrodite Macbain: rifght
Eliza Madrigal: his Copernican revolution
Eliza Madrigal: nice summary
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes it was interesting how the issue of shame came up
Mickorod Renard: oh yeh, nearly forgot that bit
Tura Brezoianu: The problems of literalism mounted as more was found out about the world
Eliza Madrigal: it was
Eliza Madrigal: it feels like a subtext of the whole book so far
Aphrodite Macbain: This is what he wrote about. It was all very logical.
Tura Brezoianu: Eventually literalism would crack, but not yet.

Eliza Madrigal: but you see the wrestling for interpretation=wrestling for power
Aphrodite Macbain: right
Aphrodite Macbain: wrestling for control of the truth maybe
Eliza Madrigal: planting the flag
Eliza Madrigal: it was interesting too that the Christians sort of won the argument for the people first... insisting that they had souls to save
Eliza Madrigal: but whether their bodies had as much value is another matter :(
Mickorod Renard: I think its worth remembering the chaos that occurs when a revolution takes place..when a structure collapses all goes west....folk are happy to hold onto something that provides status quo
Mickorod Renard: even if they know its BS
Tura Brezoianu: some argued that the "inferior races" were pre-Adamites, and Adam and Eve's progeny were the true humans.
Eliza Madrigal nods
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- an interesting solution, wasn't it?
Mickorod Renard: someone will always find a way to make use of something
Aphrodite Macbain: Also his interests were in supporting Jewish history and a Jewish homeland
Tura Brezoianu: Not intended by Peyrère, I think, but people grab whatever handle fits their hand
Aphrodite Macbain: :)
Mickorod Renard: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: nice metaphor

Eliza Madrigal: one comes to understand why people have to pretend to know'
Eliza Madrigal: things they can't really grasp the scope of
Mickorod Renard: I bet we do alot of things without really knowing why
Eliza Madrigal: some compromise against something they do know they don't want
Aphrodite Macbain: just to fit in?
Aphrodite Macbain: why do people do that?
Eliza Madrigal notes that vulnerable is on list of banned words
Aphrodite Macbain: I suppose fear and greed get in the way of logic
Mickorod Renard: i would have to be a hermit if I had to live by my beliefs
Mickorod Renard: I look around at the world and its so false
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: what parts are false?
Eliza Madrigal: how so, Mick? you mean if your beliefs were naked before the world?
Mickorod Renard: I got quite worried thinking about the word psychotic
Aphrodite Macbain: why?
Eliza Madrigal: ohh
Mickorod Renard: well, folk always ask for something indirectly
Eliza Madrigal: yes I understand that... perhaps anyone with ecstatic experiences has to kind of keep an eye :)
Mickorod Renard: or with hidden adgenders

--BELL--


Mickorod Renard: the materialistic value is over rated often
Tura Brezoianu (contemplates the notion of hidden added genders)
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Mickorod Renard: he he
Aphrodite Macbain: You dont trust what people tell you MIck?
Mickorod Renard: I have a habit of reading between the lines
Aphrodite Macbain: to find the hidden agendas?
Mickorod Renard: I do come across folk who are open,,but not in my family,,he he
Eliza Madrigal: may add to the stress a bit
Aphrodite Macbain: No wonder you feel anxious!
Mickorod Renard: but they dont like to hear my honest opinions.grin
Eliza Madrigal: the feeling that you are not quite able to be 'yourself'

Mickorod Renard: oh yeh,,and that must have been like folk in the past,,unable to challenge the church
Eliza Madrigal nods
Aphrodite Macbain: or challenge any particular authority that affects your life
Tura Brezoianu: Even today, there are people in the Anglican church who have come to disbelieve in the whole thing, but find it hard to come out and say so, and leave their office.
Aphrodite Macbain: education, medical
Tura Brezoianu: I mean, Anglican priests.
Eliza Madrigal: it is fascinating to think about actually
Eliza Madrigal: like Mother Teresa's diaries and wrestlings with loss of faith
Aphrodite Macbain: It must be very difficult to preach something you dont believe in
Mickorod Renard: I have been told that doubt is a vital part of faith
Eliza Madrigal: agree
Mickorod Renard: as it seperates from dogma I guess
Eliza Madrigal: it is possible to have faith and still believe and also have room for other things ... but not to express that
Tura Brezoianu: I sometimes wonder how many priests and bishops and cardinals and so on, even popes, now and in the past, really believe. No way to tell.
Eliza Madrigal nods
Aphrodite Macbain: I suppose it depends on what one has faith IN
Aphrodite Macbain: the virgin birth could be a challenge
Eliza Madrigal nods

Mickorod Renard: it seems counter productive in a way that Sin was forgiven but then the church is so against people saying things against it..which surely is a forgiven sin?
Aphrodite Macbain: the Jesuits were allowed to question and debate
Aphrodite Macbain: I don't know how that happened
Eliza Madrigal: perhaps there is some wisdom in that there sort of IS a way to debate and decode that may tend toward being productive rather than undoing things just for the sake of change
Mickorod Renard: In strange groups tho, one is often expected to have ritual,,as a bonding..even though it might be completely bonkers
Aphrodite Macbain: Whatever it is, it is hard to go against current opinions held within your particular society. That is why it is important to encourage a pluralistic society
Eliza Madrigal nods... am fond of strange groups
Eliza Madrigal: ^.^
Aphrodite Macbain: so original voices can be heard
Mickorod Renard: that is very important point Aph
Eliza Madrigal agrees
Mickorod Renard: even though it may be hard to do

Aphrodite Macbain: It's not just the church who has fought dissenting views
Aphrodite Macbain: totalitarian governments do
Aphrodite Macbain: scientists do
Aphrodite Macbain: economists do
Tura Brezoianu: But the proper tools are argument and evidence, rather than the stake and the concentration camp
Aphrodite Macbain: For me the biggest challenge is to be able to present informed opinion in the face of opposition
Eliza Madrigal shivers
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes Tura argument and evidence- the scientific method
Tura Brezoianu: ...or the SWATting and doxxing
Aphrodite Macbain: ?
Tura Brezoianu: ah...90 seconds while I write up those words
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Eliza Madrigal: :)

--BELL--

Mickorod Renard: I found it sad how communism couldnt escape the victimization
Tura Brezoianu: SWATting is making a hoax call to the police that will get a SWAT (Special Weapons And Tactics) team to descend on your hated enemy.
Aphrodite Macbain: and doxxing?
Mickorod Renard: wow
Tura Brezoianu: Doxxing is searching out and publishing your hated enemy's personal information (their "docs"), like where they live and where their children go to school.
Aphrodite Macbain: goodness- there is a term for that?
Eliza Madrigal: new vocabulary to me!
Aphrodite Macbain: me too
Tura Brezoianu: The internet is a bad place. :(
Eliza Madrigal: but you do see the latter happen these days quite often
Mickorod Renard: yeh, I am seriously thinking of opting out of the tech world
Aphrodite Macbain: It's going to get worse TUra :(

Eliza Madrigal: I have to go ...
Eliza Madrigal: "may you be free of suffering, may you live at ease..." :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Eliza Weliza
Mickorod Renard: bye Eliza, nice t c ya
Eliza Madrigal: ah... remembering now an important part of the chapter... grr, wanted to talk about second arrow suffering....
Eliza Madrigal: ::makes note::::
Tura Brezoianu: bye Eliza
Aphrodite Macbain: oh?
Mickorod Renard: ]he he
Eliza Madrigal: always something :))))
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you. ありがとうございました。
Aphrodite Macbain: Hugs
Mickorod Renard: I have to go,,sounds like Seatle thing is worse
Aphrodite Macbain: Time for me to go too
Mickorod Renard: bye Aph
Mickorod Renard: Bye tura
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye MIck, TUra
Tura Brezoianu: bye folks
Mickorod Renard: he he
Mickorod Renard: nice chat
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: next week Chapter 13?