2017.12.07 13:00 - Redemption ends here

The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard. The comments are by Mickorod Renard.

Tura Brezoianu: hi Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Tura.
Bruce Mowbray: Where is/are everyone?
Tura Brezoianu: I don't know. There was a rolling restart not long ago.
Tura Brezoianu: hi Mick
Bruce Mowbray: Ahhh, that could account for some of it, maybe.3
Mickorod Renard: Hiya, soz late,,took ages to log on
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Mick.
Bruce Mowbray: Rolling restart.
Mickorod Renard: yay..everything is sooo slow
Bruce Mowbray: R U using Firestorm?
Mickorod Renard: yes I am
Bruce Mowbray: Me too.
Mickorod Renard: how are you guys?
Bruce Mowbray: We have a polar votex descending from Canada. . . coldest night of the season so far.
Mickorod Renard: wow that sounds exciting
Bruce Mowbray: and I have a persistent cough... Otherwise, great!
Bruce Mowbray: How are you, Mick and Tura/
Bruce Mowbray: ?
Mickorod Renard: ah, yes I have discovered most the world has the cough now
Tura Brezoianu: Fine. Dull, rainy and windy for me.
Mickorod Renard: I am just escaping it..so far
Mickorod Renard: same here Tura
Mickorod Renard: supposed to snow tommorow
Bruce Mowbray: snow here also, but only about half an inch.
Mickorod Renard: over here that means about an 1/8 of an inch but enough to bring the country to a halt
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Bruce Mowbray: I grew up in Iowa where if we didn't get 30 inches of snow, we thought it had not been winter....
Mickorod Renard: wow thats alot
Bruce Mowbray: then I did undergrad in Dallas,
Mickorod Renard: I have freinds in wisconcin and they get lots too
Bruce Mowbray: and an inch of snow would shut down the whole city.
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha.
Mickorod Renard: he he
Bruce Mowbray: Northern Wisconsin gets LOTS of snow. . . lake effect. . . and they love to ski up there.
Mickorod Renard: I wonder what will come out of the keady file release?
Mickorod Renard: kennedy
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm. . . not much, i would think.
Mickorod Renard: isnt Mr T releasing them?
Bruce Mowbray: I've forgotten the schedule for that....
Mickorod Renard: ah
Bruce Mowbray: I now he release a few of the records this fall, or summer.
Bruce Mowbray: now*
Bruce Mowbray: know*
Mickorod Renard: :)
Bruce Mowbray: My keyboard is acting up again.
Tura Brezoianu: whenever he needs a distraction?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, he surely does.
Mickorod Renard: he is just starting the isreali arabb war again
Bruce Mowbray: He paints himself more into corners every day.
Mickorod Renard: grin
Bruce Mowbray: That's quite a distraction, no?
Mickorod Renard: I wonder whether we are the full house today?
Bruce Mowbray: Maybe.
Mickorod Renard: well, its been pretty quiet over there a while
Bruce Mowbray: Someone just arrived.
Mickorod Renard: oh!
Bruce Mowbray: and just left again.
Bruce Mowbray: Are the grandkids sleeping, Mick?
--BELL--
Mickorod Renard: I do not have them toite
Bruce Mowbray: Ahhh!
Mickorod Renard: tonite
Mickorod Renard: I did get them from school
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Mickorod Renard: but daddy got them from me
Bruce Mowbray: Bleu cometh.
Mickorod Renard: one was 4 the other day..he is due to play Joseph in the nativity play
Bruce Mowbray: Ahhh!
Bleu Oleander: 's current display-name is "Bleu".
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Bleu.
Mickorod Renard: Hi Bleu
Bleu Oleander: hi guys
Tura Brezoianu: hi Bleu
Mickorod Renard: quiet here today
Tura Brezoianu: less bleu today
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Bleu Oleander: busy here
Mickorod Renard: he he
Bleu Oleander: I may not be able to stay
Mickorod Renard: no worries
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Mickorod Renard: maybe I should ask if anyone has a report?
Bruce Mowbray: I gave mine on Monday. But thanks anyway.
Bruce Mowbray: ayoe else?
Bruce Mowbray: anyone*
Mickorod Renard: I prepped one just in case
Bruce Mowbray: YAYYY!
Bleu Oleander: was monday's posted?
Mickorod Renard: he he
Tura Brezoianu: I don't have anything more on Milton
Bruce Mowbray: The "case" is upon us!
Mickorod Renard: not sure Bleu
Mickorod Renard: Ags does monday and she is pretty good
Bleu Oleander: go ahead Mick
Mickorod Renard: ok
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Mickorod Renard: its longish
Bruce Mowbray: YAYYY!
Mickorod Renard: I wrote something up for last Monday and lost it..so I can't find the enthusiasm to go through it again. However, there is a bit in this section that has always been a fascination for me and sometimes I believe that the greater world either does not see it or prefers not to discuss it.
Mickorod Renard: It is pertinent to what makes the perfect union. the 'in us both one soul' . Where for eg the woman isn't the only one to be submissive. For me its more an ideal where total trust and a common objective to profit in health and happiness eliminates harmful competitiveness and distrust in a partnership.
Mickorod Renard: In my mind Milton understood this (from reading this section) but it also made me wonder how this would change ones opinion of the A and E story. My thinking is that Eve should have consulted Adam prior to taking from the tree. Ok, one could say she shared it with Adam..but was that to incriminate him too.?.or was it that he trusted her beyond question? Also, as may have been suggested somewhere, did Adam knowingly choose to follow Eve because of his unfaltering love for her, accepting the risk of punishment?
Mickorod Renard: I think the message here is not so much about attributing blame on a whole gender, but to bring about the understanding and deep complexity of a union /partnership whether in marriage or business. Generally we look at the story with a sour taste in our mouths but to? realize the idyllic alternative of a cohesive union working together is beauty in itself.
Mickorod Renard: done
Bruce Mowbray: Wow. That's wonderful, Mick.
Bleu Oleander: nice Mick
Mickorod Renard: well, not sure about that Bruce but ty
Bruce Mowbray: You know, the Hebrais tradition did not regard the A & E story to have enjoined original sin....
Bruce Mowbray: Hebraic*
Bruce Mowbray: That came later. . . from Christians.
Bleu Oleander: I think the book ties things together in the last chapter ... "the world was all before them"
Mickorod Renard: ah yes, and the moslem version also doesnt
Bruce Mowbray: For the ancient Jews, it was more about becoming conscious, responsible, knowing....
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Mickorod Renard: it does make me think that some aspects have been hyjacked
Mickorod Renard: for purpose of control
Bruce Mowbray ponders "The world is our oyster...." but Adm didn't name creatures of the sea, did hw?
Bruce Mowbray: he*
Mickorod Renard: true
Bruce Mowbray: The story is very metaphoric, allegorical, symbolic. . . so it lends itself too multiple interpretations.
Bruce Mowbray: to*
Bruce Mowbray: I would invite A and E to eat the apple again and again.
Mickorod Renard: again tho, that bit I think was just to create a natrative to underline him seeing that no animal would be sufficient company
Bruce Mowbray: Yeah, so that bloody mess on his left side, alas.
Bruce Mowbray: Of course, that's only in the 2nd genesis story.
Bruce Mowbray: not in the first one.
Mickorod Renard: the story could have been created merely to instil cohesion and unifying actions
Bleu Oleander: why do you think they included both stories?
Bruce Mowbray: There were different traditions at work, and Gensis included at least three of them.
--BELL--
Bruce Mowbray: Also, in the Hebraic tradition, generlly speaking, there are dialogues going on... midrashes. . . so "true" is a process, not a product.
Bruce Mowbray: Some people even feel that the New Testament should be interpreted as a midrash....
Bleu Oleander: so why do so many turn the stories into one true story then?
Bruce Mowbray: thus, several gospels, not just one "true" one.
Bruce Mowbray: I guess some people have a different idea of how "truth" is derived or arrived at.
Bruce Mowbray: but that's wuite a trick when there are so many contradictions among the four gospels.
Bruce Mowbray: quite*
Mickorod Renard: I was thinking about that as in quantum mechanics
Bleu Oleander: is truth something that you can prove in some sense? or merely a consensus of opinions?
Mickorod Renard: what is reality is what you see
Bruce Mowbray: Depends on which discipline you are in, Bleu.
Bleu Oleander: say more?
Mickorod Renard: we see diferently now..but it doesnt nes mean that what we saw was wrong
Bruce Mowbray: Which is the "true" painting of the Garden of Eden?
Bleu Oleander: there is no true painting
Bruce Mowbray: That's my point.
Bruce Mowbray: Painting has a different way of finding "truth than, say, physics does.
Bleu Oleander: that's not really my question tho
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Mickorod Renard: listens
Mickorod Renard: can u say ask it in another way?
Bleu Oleander: you could say a particular painting is a painting of some subject, which may be true
Bleu Oleander: what I was talking about tho, is more of a truth about the world?
Bruce Mowbray: A "consensus of opinions" might be able to decide which species some newly discovered bacterium should be put into....
Bleu Oleander: how can we share truth about the world if we can't agree on what truth is?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, valid question....
Bleu Oleander: naming a species is in some sense arbitrary ... not really true or not true, except by certain criteria perhaps?
Bruce Mowbray: That's why the Jehovah's Witnesses who visit here have lively conversations -- we don't agree about what "truth" is - let alone on what might be true.
Mickorod Renard: many of the truths we as individuals cannot proove anyway,,so most the world takes it as an act of faith,,even tho today from scientists
Bruce Mowbray: Well, when it comes to matters of religion, I feel that faith is valid and probably the only way to go.
Tura Brezoianu: If you hold that every word of scripture is literally true, your mind has to twist itself into strange shapes to explain all the contradictions and absurdities.
Bruce Mowbray: For sure, Tura.
Bleu Oleander: faith is valid for the one who has faith, but not for anyone else perhaps?
Mickorod Renard: we all must have faith,,but in diferent ways
Bleu Oleander: depends on how you're defining "faith"
Mickorod Renard: even getting on a plane is an act of faith
Bleu Oleander: well not really
Bleu Oleander: trust maybe
Tura Brezoianu: I prefer C.S. Lewis' idea of faith: it is for defending reason against the passions.
Bleu Oleander: trust in the engineers
Bruce Mowbray: Well, when it comes to things like climate change, I'd like persons of authority to speak more about facts and statistics than about their faith that somehow some onmipotent entity will save us from ourselves.
Mickorod Renard: ponders that,,and the similarity
Mickorod Renard: I am just reading cs lewis to my grand daughter
Bruce Mowbray loves Bleu's distinction between trust and faith.
Bleu Oleander: I think concepts of science that have been proven and tested are not faith in the same sense
Bruce Mowbray: Narnia stories, Mick?
Mickorod Renard: yes Bruce,,we are starting at the beginning book
Bleu Oleander: we put ourselves in the hands of experts, but that is more a trust of the system than faith
Bruce Mowbray: Ahhh!
Mickorod Renard: but for many folk when it comes to coping in life they do draw from a trust in scriptures
Bleu Oleander: that's fine ... just not a truth for everyone
Bruce Mowbray: I put my trust in engineers . . . when it comes to air travel and technology. . . . also, trust in the pilot and in air traffic controllers.
Bleu Oleander: its only one person's word to another
Mickorod Renard: when I think of some of the rotten things I did as a kid I now feel i should have had some guidance from a reliable book,,whether it was true or not
Bruce Mowbray: Bleu once suggested a great book: "Is God a Mathematicisn?"
Bleu Oleander: that was a while ago :)
Mickorod Renard: I often wonder that
Bruce Mowbray: Mathematician*
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, a while ago, but still a fascinating book. . . which continues to challenge my thinking.
--BELL--
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Do we "discover" math concepts, or do we invent them?
Mickorod Renard: I have just watched a program on quantum theory..and entanglement..it is like someone is playing games
Bruce Mowbray: Great, Mick.
Bleu Oleander: must slip out ... sorry ... crazy day here
Bleu Oleander: take care all
Mickorod Renard: kk Bleu
Tura Brezoianu: bye Bleu
Mickorod Renard: thanks for coming
Bruce Mowbray: Bye bye Blue.
Bruce Mowbray: Bleu.... :)
Bruce Mowbray hums Dylan's "It's all over now, Baby Blue."
Mickorod Renard: he he
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Bruce Mowbray: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af7ngGxEusE
Mickorod Renard: I have to ask Bruce,,as maybe you know.....whilst reading this book,,the underlying question seems to be whether the story of A and E is real..or rather true?
Mickorod Renard: is that the question we are trying to answer?
Bruce Mowbray: "Real" "True" "actual history" . . . . which do you mean?
Mickorod Renard: :)
Bruce Mowbray: It is a story that was made up to hold possible explanations for mysteries...
Mickorod Renard: well, we seem to be asking this question all the time
Bruce Mowbray: the mystery of sin, sexuality, awareness, dominion over animals, etc.
Mickorod Renard: I havnt really asked myself this as I dont find it proovable
Bruce Mowbray: To be "rel" it does not need to be provable.
Bruce Mowbray: real*
Mickorod Renard: yes, I find the story still relenat,,in all those ares
Bruce Mowbray: It only needs to hold validity as a story.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes!
Bruce Mowbray: Som the story holds validity for you.
Bruce Mowbray: So,*
Mickorod Renard: yes
Mickorod Renard: absolutly
Bruce Mowbray: But would you say that it is "actual history"?
Bruce Mowbray: I mean New York Times sort of "real" -- history.
Mickorod Renard: if it is not an actual history of 2 dudes called A and E then its an actual history of sorts of most peoples lives
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, a lot of people think of it as actual history. . . . but that seems a bit naive to me.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, WE ARE in that story too!
Bruce Mowbray: That's why it holds so much value for me, actually.
Mickorod Renard: it took me years to come to understand some of the story within my life but sadly i had to experience some of it
Bruce Mowbray: Indeed. . . . the story kicked YOU out of the "Garden"
Bruce Mowbray: loss of innocense.
Bruce Mowbray: innocence, too.
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Mickorod Renard: yes, but also kicked out and ignorant
Bruce Mowbray: Ahhh. That, my friend, is the plight of most of us. . .
Bruce Mowbray: We are ignorant, but we continue on. . .
Mickorod Renard: a bite of the tree of knowledge makes u think u know everything
Bruce Mowbray: Dangerous bites. . .
Bruce Mowbray: The longer I live, the more mysterious everything becomes -- starting with mere being itself.
Tura Brezoianu: the cure for one bite of knowledge is more bites
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Tura, that's why I said earlier that I'd advise eating the apple again and again.
Bruce Mowbray: Time for me to be a-scraping up supper.
Bruce Mowbray: (just when it's starting to get really interesting, too!)
Tura Brezoianu: goodnight Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Great!
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now.
Tura Brezoianu: had some a few days ago, but it didn't lie
Tura Brezoianu: thanks for hosting the session
--BELL--
Tura Brezoianu: till next time