The Host for this meeting was Mick. The Scribe was Agatha Macbeth.

Bruce Mowbray: 's current display-name is "Bruce".
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Eliza and Stormy, and Tura!
Storm Nordwind: Hellooo
Tura Brezoianu: hi everyone
Eliza Madrigal: Aloha everyone
Bruce Mowbray: Mick cometh.
Bruce Mowbray: ANy new word from Pila?
Mickorod Renard: Hi everyone
Storm Nordwind: He was here last night
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Mick.
Bruce Mowbray: Oh, good!
Agatha Macbeth: Yay she's back!
Storm Nordwind: You can check Steve's session log. Nice long conversation
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, aggers and Mick.
Agatha Macbeth: Evening all
Bruce Mowbray: Has he had to evacuate?
Storm Nordwind: Not as yet
Mickorod Renard: Hi Ags
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Bruce Mowbray: kk,, thanks.
Mickorod Renard: whats happened to Stevie?
Storm Nordwind admire Agatha's jacket
Agatha Macbeth: Stevie's what?
Agatha Macbeth grins @ Stormy
Mickorod Renard: I wonder?
Eliza Madrigal: Was nice to read the log with Pila
Eliza Madrigal: and to see his new website
Mickorod Renard: Hi Eliza, nice t c ya
Eliza Madrigal: ntsy too!
Agatha Macbeth: Brucie when is your friend doing this meditation for did you say?
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Raff
Mickorod Renard: hi Raffi
Bruce Mowbray: I don't think a date has been set yet.
Eliza Madrigal: funny, I'm in IM with him now
Agatha Macbeth: Ah OK
Eliza Madrigal: @agatha
Agatha Macbeth: Hehe
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: I think he's coordinating with Eliza.
Raffila Millgrove: Hi Mic. Hello all.
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Raffi.
Agatha Macbeth: Luck him eh
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Raffi
Eliza Madrigal: I'll be mostly quiet today I think... am catching up with these sessions and readings
Agatha Macbeth: 0.0
Bruce Mowbray: Elijah and Eliza are IMing.
Mickorod Renard: now I must admit I have no idea what we are talking about
Agatha Macbeth: Is that technically possible?
Eliza Madrigal laughs
Bruce Mowbray: Well, I have a sort of question. . .
Agatha Macbeth listens
Mickorod Renard: listens
Bruce Mowbray: Is it better to be somewhere else than where you are?
Agatha Macbeth: Depends where you are I'd say
Bruce Mowbray: Last week I asked, " Doesn't lighten Monkton care how you get there?"
Bruce Mowbray: That question was taken somewhat literally. . .
Bruce Mowbray: so I'm asking it a different way.
Agatha Macbeth: If I was in the middle of a herd of lions I'd definitely want to be somewhere else
Bruce Mowbray: Is there something you need to do to attain what ever the hoopoe is talking about?
Storm Nordwind knows Bruce means "enlightenment" :)
Bruce Mowbray: good question, Storm.
Agatha Macbeth: (Herd? pride?)
Bruce Mowbray: I am talking exactly about the same thing that the hoopoe is talking about.
Mickorod Renard: well, I keep asking the same to myself whilst reading
Bruce Mowbray: yes, Mick
Bruce Mowbray: I think it is a central issue to the poem.
Mickorod Renard: but then at times I feel I have felt something like what may be that place
Bruce Mowbray: that me put it another way, " If there were a color to represent the place that the birds are going to, what with that color be?"
Tura Brezoianu: Octarine
Agatha Macbeth: Azure
Bruce Mowbray: I would say white.
Bruce Mowbray: the color of transcendence.
Mickorod Renard: surely the place is a state of mind?
Bruce Mowbray: I agree, Mick.
Storm Nordwind: If the culture that surrounds you makes you feel bad, guilty or dissatisfied with where you are, you either have to move, get yourself a different surrounding culture, or learn to accept who you are despite what others say.
Bruce Mowbray: so going back to my original question, do we need to be in another place?
Mickorod Renard: an acceptance of all colour and non colour
Bruce Mowbray: I was listening to a lecture by James Hillman today, and he mentioned that the color of transcendence is white . . . and that's why I mentioned it here.
Mickorod Renard: literally i would say that I find it hard to be away from distraction where I am
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Bruce Mowbray: because I think the hoopoe is talking about transcending one's present condition....
Mickorod Renard: white is that colour of all colours I think
Bruce Mowbray: so I'm asking if we need to go somewhere else... as the birds are going.
Bruce Mowbray: I'm talking about the metaphorical color white.
Agatha Macbeth: Could be
Bruce Mowbray: not the literal color white.
Agatha Macbeth: As in white is all things?
Agatha Macbeth: Or all colours rather
Bruce Mowbray: as in I will wash your sins whiter than snow . . .
Agatha Macbeth: RGB sliders at max in other words
Tura Brezoianu: All turned up to 11
Bruce Mowbray: well I suppose that would be a modern-day version of it . . . but were still on a literal level now
Storm Nordwind: The color may not matter. It'd be kinda boring if everyone wore white. But the cleanliness does matter.
Agatha Macbeth: That's a small bittage TU :)
Mickorod Renard: but to rid the sins is to rid the self which would sugest to me that its to be non judgemental too
Bruce Mowbray: So, cleanliness is represented by white . . . purity, etc.?
Storm Nordwind: Not to me Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Me neither, Storm.
--BELL--
Mickorod Renard: I would think of a conversion of a sort
Mickorod Renard: can one rid of past sins?
Storm Nordwind: And who is the worthy judge of cleanliness anyway? Surely only yourself.
Bruce Mowbray: the notion that white represents transcendence and purity is an alchemy , , , , okay, Mick, a conversion . . . please Seymore.
Bruce Mowbray: Say more.
Bruce Mowbray slaps Dragon.
Agatha Macbeth: Watch out for the flames
Bruce Mowbray: [ conversion is also a sort of alchemy]
Mickorod Renard: well, I was thinking that sometimes ignorance is a route cause of sins
Agatha Macbeth: The philosopher's stone
Bruce Mowbray: well, flames purify, don't they?
Agatha Macbeth: Indeed
Bruce Mowbray: the notion that ignorance is at the basis of sin is a Greek notion . . .
Eliza Madrigal: Hm, there is a balance to, taking responsibility for ignorance without condemning oneself
Mickorod Renard: after an undersytanding and change one becomes whiter but not absolved of their past exactly
Bruce Mowbray: the Abrahamic traditions do not talk about ignorance so much as some innate quality or property that needs to be transcended....
Tura Brezoianu: also in Buddhism, ignorance if the cause fo suffering
Bruce Mowbray: yes very strong in Buddhism too.
Tura Brezoianu: *is the cause of
Eliza Madrigal nods
Mickorod Renard: yes, I agree ignorance may not be the ideal word
Bruce Mowbray: but Buddhism is not a transcending tradition, is it?
Eliza Madrigal: lack of compassion springs from ignorance
Mickorod Renard: but we are all supposed to be born ok,,then take a nose dive
Bruce Mowbray: Buddhism is a more of a go through it rather than above it tradition.
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Bruce Mowbray: ( what Nick just said suggests that we should be somewhere else than where we are . . . if the nosedive took us where we are)
Bruce Mowbray listens, again.
Mickorod Renard: I see now Bruce, yes
Bleu Oleander: 's current display-name is "Bleu".
Bleu Oleander: hi all :)
Mickorod Renard: we strayed but where from?
Agatha Macbeth: Bleuji :)
Eliza Madrigal: transcendence seems to me more a natural process than an escape, but that is how I feel differently from the tradition I was raised in
Bruce Mowbray: then, why is the hoopoe taking the bird somewhere else?
Mickorod Renard: Hi Bleu
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Bleu.
Agatha Macbeth: To find the Simurgh
Bruce Mowbray: birds*
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu :)
Bruce Mowbray: Is the Simorgh somewhere else?
Eliza Madrigal: yes and no
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Mickorod Renard: I suspected the hoopoe was taking the birds away from their attachments
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Probably, or they wouldn't be looking for him :)
Tura Brezoianu: the journey is metaphorical, like the Pilgrim's Progress
Agatha Macbeth: Or her
Tura Brezoianu: (saw Storm's comment in the logs about Attar hectoring like Bunyan)
Mickorod Renard: facing the wilderness and self reflection
Storm Nordwind smiles
Bruce Mowbray: in alchemy as well as mysticism, one must speak in metaphors . .. literalism's simply do not work. Agrees with Tura.
Bruce Mowbray: literalisms*
Bruce Mowbray: but do the metaphors work?
Bleu Oleander: for who?
Bruce Mowbray: Well, first for the birds . . . and then, I suppose, for whoever reads the poem
Bleu Oleander: yes, I imagine differently for each who read it and can't know about the birds :)
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Mickorod Renard: As I have read this periods pages I feel that the challenge is too great for me as I cannot leave my attachments,,but then, I believe there is something still to reflect on,,and still a mystery
Bruce Mowbray: hmmmmm.
Storm Nordwind: There was one - just one - metaphor that worked for me in the whole of this section we read: "Your breaths are jewels"
Bruce Mowbray: ahhhh!
Mickorod Renard: yes!!!
Bleu Oleander: :)
Mickorod Renard: exactly, there are little jewels mixed in with the poems too
Bruce Mowbray: probably the most primary activity that living things do is to breathe....
Bruce Mowbray: similar to the way that the most primary activity of any object with mass . . . is inertia.
Mickorod Renard: I was only having a discussion earlier with grand daughter who was upset over nothing..and reminding her of all the wonderful parts of the day
Storm Nordwind: And it reminded me of of a well-known Zen story: http://www.101zenstories.org/inch-time-foot-gem/
Eliza Madrigal: breath is like the elephant in the room... rare and precious yet for long periods untended to
Tura Brezoianu is reminded of Don Quixote remarking that a tooth is worth more than a diamond
Bruce Mowbray listens to all of the jewels being spoken here.
--BELL--
Mickorod Renard: perhaps we as regular folk don't have to be as radical as a Sufi or Monk, but we can see beauty and value in everything rather than negativity
Bruce Mowbray: Mick's granddaughter is a jewel, too.
Mickorod Renard: :) ty
Agatha Macbeth smiles
Bruce Mowbray: :) It's true.
Mickorod Renard: this is why I am also so addicted to discovering equanamity,,I am sure its important
Bruce Mowbray: one thing that strikes me in almost every one of the sections (parables) is how special - transformative - compassion is . . . especially for the individual who has earned society's rejection.
Bruce Mowbray: how quickly it can turn around through kindness.
Eliza Madrigal: compassion too, is perhaps hard to chase after, but it is apparent when it happens
Bruce Mowbray nods, agrees with Eliza.
Bleu Oleander: :)
Mickorod Renard: I find that too Bruce, although I am constantly in arguement inside my head as I am surounded by the idea that you work hard and earn your privilages
Mickorod Renard: not that I do
Bruce Mowbray: yeah, that old Protestant ethic thing: work for the night is coming . . . work out your salvation . . .
Mickorod Renard: reminded of the words over the gates of the nazi death camps
Bruce Mowbray: so I'll rephrase my original question, do we need to be doing something other than what were doing?
Bruce Mowbray: as well as be somewhere else than where we already are?
Bruce Mowbray: we"re doing*
Bleu Oleander: two pretty different questions
Storm Nordwind: Is it possible to answer for anyone else, Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: really?
Mickorod Renard: I feel we do need to be trying to be somewhere,,but yet it may have more to do with not doing
Bruce Mowbray: ( That was to Bleu)
Mickorod Renard: maybe we are doing,,,,the wrong thing
Bleu Oleander: ok, to me they are
Tura Brezoianu: If you're caught up in the cares of the world, smoking and drinking yourself to an early death, probably there is something you should be doing differently
Bleu Oleander: ha!
Agatha Macbeth: Right
Bleu Oleander: unless that's where you want to go :)
Eliza Madrigal: these are answers that change constantly, just as the questions' meanings do
Tura Brezoianu: In this circle, we're all doing something differently by being here
Eliza Madrigal nods Tura
Mickorod Renard: I dont smoke now , but those cigars were a great meditation value
Bruce Mowbray: so, in the poem, there is a duality --- a good place to be and a bad place to be, good things to do and bad things to do . . . ?
Eliza Madrigal: objects have sides
Bleu Oleander: for me its not that b+w
Storm Nordwind: Even missteps are part of the path. Every place you thought you shouldn't be has eventually brought you here.
Bruce Mowbray: please say more, Bleu.
Mickorod Renard: listens
Bruce Mowbray: ahhhh! Great, Storm!
Bleu Oleander: just that there are many shades and yes Storm!
Tura Brezoianu: The poem paints it all very starkly, and what seems to be impossibly extreme terms, but other than that, yes, I would say there are things to do and places to go.
Tura Brezoianu: *seems to me
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Mickorod Renard: are we not on a path of experiences?
Bruce Mowbray: if what Storm just said is true, then it is not every individual's past perfect?
Tura Brezoianu: Already to speak of a Path or a Way, is to speak of a here and a there.
Bruce Mowbray: Is every path not perfect?
Bleu Oleander: the path reveals itself in the aftermath of the journey perhaps?
Tura Brezoianu: Not if you walk in the opposite direction :)
Bruce Mowbray: language does that...
Bruce Mowbray: ( metaphors especially)
Mickorod Renard: I would say yes, perfect but perhaps each step should be appreciated,,for what one can gleen
Bruce Mowbray: even steps in the opposite direction are valuable if they somehow bring about our present condition . . . they bring us to where we are: Here/Now.
Bleu Oleander: what does it mean to say that a path, your path is perfect?
Mickorod Renard: like that sting song 'every step that you take'
Eliza Madrigal: also it seems some of these questions are designed as if one had a linear choice laid out before them
Bruce Mowbray: excellent point, Eliza.
Bleu Oleander: I just read a fabulous book, 'the order of time' by Rovelli
Bleu Oleander: speaking of linear :)
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal leans in :)
Mickorod Renard: the journey suggests a path or a route they travel along,,linear...but the journey may be all in the mind
Eliza Madrigal: sounds great
Bruce Mowbray: thinking of time as an arrow? entropy, etc.?
Mickorod Renard: listens to Bleu
Eliza Madrigal: @Mick, you know that's not a romantic song, btw? Sting was quite upset it was taken that way for a while. :)
Bleu Oleander: amazing ways to think about time and the lack of time
Bruce Mowbray Also listens to Bleu.
Mickorod Renard: I didnt know the story behind it Eliza, no
Eliza Madrigal making note of book
Bleu Oleander: not meaning to give a synopsis but a good one for future discussions perhaps
Bruce Mowbray: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07638M8JL...ng=UTF8&btkr=1
Eliza Madrigal: Mick, just a bit of trivia... it is kind of a song about posessiveness, but then people were playing it at their weddings, etc
Eliza Madrigal: *possessiveness
Bleu Oleander: :)
Mickorod Renard: maybe we should consider something like that book Bleu next time to break away from religious type ones
Eliza Madrigal: this one is interesting Mick, when we stay in the poetry of it especially
Bleu Oleander: sure
Mickorod Renard: no worries Eliza, was just something I thought of when seeing our words
Bruce Mowbray: another strong theme in the poem, in addition to compassion, seems to be gratitude.
Eliza Madrigal listens
Bleu Oleander: agree Eliza
Bruce Mowbray: people are grateful for having the metaphorical king smile at them, for example.
Bruce Mowbray: transformative.
Eliza Madrigal: deemed worthy?
Bruce Mowbray: I'm thinking of the child who was given 100 fish by the fisherman to feed his family, and of the child's gratitude.
Bruce Mowbray: powerful, Eliza.
Bruce Mowbray: worthiness, a sense of that, I mean.
Bruce Mowbray: coming out of humility.
Eliza Madrigal: I liked that story.... felt like, equality of heart, even if outward circumstances were different
Mickorod Renard: I was on a flight the other week and I did a couple of kind but no big deal things for a couple of passengers and I couldnt belive how they appeared transformed. and so grateful...it reminded me of how much we can help people
Eliza Madrigal: heart-peer
Bruce Mowbray: there are a lot of opposites in the poem.
Eliza Madrigal: Nice, Mick
Bruce Mowbray loves "heart-peer"
Eliza Madrigal: one can feel especially vulnerable during travel - was on receiving end of help last week ^.^, felt appreciative too
Bruce Mowbray: so the passengers didn't need to be anywhere besides where they were to have that transformative kindness happen to them.
Mickorod Renard: I am generally reserved so dont offer myself up
Bruce Mowbray: I think I am especially generous when I travel . . . I mean emotionally generous.
Mickorod Renard: yes, we were all travelling but in the same space
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes I think about in these older traditions, sufism, etc., being a generous host was high virtue
Bleu Oleander: we have the choice to be generous every day
Mickorod Renard: the poem seeded to focus a fair bit on the self too
Bruce Mowbray: yes hospitality, very important.
Storm Nordwind: True in north European pagan traditions too.
Eliza Madrigal nods
Bruce Mowbray: I'm remembering how desert people would be expected to wash a traveler's feet, provide lodging, and provide water and food.
Bleu Oleander: xenia for the ancient greeks
Mickorod Renard: in a way, was this not what defines humanity?
Bruce Mowbray: I would hope so ,Mick.
Tura Brezoianu: Yes, you get that in harsh environments, both deserts and the frozen North
Mickorod Renard: does the modern world loose sight of humanity?
Bleu Oleander: depends on your definition of humanity
Eliza Madrigal: well, you didn't Mick, in this circumstance where you helped someone :)
Bruce Mowbray: I watched a program on CNN last week about a permanent year-round settlement in Antarctica -- and it was refreshing to see how kind people were to each other.
Bruce Mowbray: humane....
Eliza Madrigal: what a unique circumstance :)
Bruce Mowbray: I wanted to go there!
Eliza Madrigal: hermit 2.0
Mickorod Renard: btw, I really feel my age now as all sorts of folk stand up to offer me seats and things
Bleu Oleander: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MImYM87jOtU
Bleu Oleander: interesting film
Mickorod Renard: are we good to take these same poems into Thursday?
Bruce Mowbray: the sea and in the program I am referring to was one in the Anthony Bordain series.
Bruce Mowbray: yes Mick that's a good idea.
Mickorod Renard: perhaps we can meditate oover them?
Bruce Mowbray: I shall meditate over scraping up supper....
Bleu Oleander: you might enjoy this film Bruce
Agatha Macbeth: Scrape well Brucie
Mickorod Renard: he he ..bye Bruce and ty
Tura Brezoianu: goodnight Bruce
Agatha Macbeth: Love to the squirrels
Bleu Oleander: bye Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks, Bleu. Thanks everhone.
--BELL--
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now.
Eliza Madrigal: "the edge existential and otherwise" (from the trailer)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bruce!!
Agatha Macbeth: Close to the edge
Eliza Madrigal: looks great, and yes maybe thurs we can lean more into that 'self' part, too, Mick?
Bleu Oleander: one of Werner Herzog's best
Mickorod Renard: i started reading a really funny kids book to the kids in bed earlier, it was so funny all they did was laugh and laugh
Agatha Macbeth: Trump's biography?
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Mickorod Renard: Great Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: that's a horror book Agatha, not appropriate :P
Agatha Macbeth: True
Mickorod Renard: I usually hope they go to sleep
Mickorod Renard: he he Ags
Eliza Madrigal: sigh, talk about compassion for an hour and still trigger happy (me) lol
Agatha Macbeth ducks
Mickorod Renard: Trumps done ok ..he has saved us from nuclear anaihalation from n k
Eliza Madrigal: Must give doggo his medication now :)((((thanks Mick, and everyone)))))
Bleu Oleander: woof
Agatha Macbeth: Give him a hug
Mickorod Renard: kk Eliza, take care
Mickorod Renard: ty
Eliza Madrigal: bfn
Storm Nordwind waves
Bleu Oleander: bfn
Agatha Macbeth: Doggo clinic
Bleu Oleander: my doggo too :)
Bleu Oleander: bye y'all
Agatha Macbeth: These mutts
Bleu Oleander: til next time
Agatha Macbeth: TC Bleuji
Raffila Millgrove: yeahmy dog is sick also. sigh.
Mickorod Renard: mine in a jar in the cupboard
Agatha Macbeth: Oh dear
Raffila Millgrove waves bye.
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe it's the weather
Mickorod Renard: bye Raffi
Mickorod Renard: I have to feel positive for my dog as he no longer has to put up with me
Tura Brezoianu: I'll be going now, goodnight all
Mickorod Renard: bye Tura, ty
Storm Nordwind: Bye!
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Tu
Storm Nordwind: And the last ones here are the night owls!
Agatha Macbeth hoots
Storm Nordwind: hehe
Mickorod Renard: ghoot hot and awayrin, I must go too,
Agatha Macbeth: Welsh?
Mickorod Renard: gosh, my typos are getting worse
Agatha Macbeth: There's lovely
Mickorod Renard: hey, I must babbler that
Mickorod Renard: it may be devine inspiration
Agatha Macbeth: Or something
Storm Nordwind: Channeling aliens
Mickorod Renard: or foul language and needs editing
Agatha Macbeth: That too
Mickorod Renard: :)
Mickorod Renard: ok guys, thanks lots
Mickorod Renard: c ya soon
Storm Nordwind: Thanks for hosting :)
Agatha Macbeth: Be careful out there
Mickorod Renard: mp
Agatha Macbeth: TC Stormy
Mickorod Renard: did u get the log Ags?
Agatha Macbeth: I did
Mickorod Renard: ah well done