The Guardian for this meeting were Aph and Bruce. The comments are by Agatha.
Aphrodite Macbain's current display-name is "Aph".
Eliza Madrigal: Aloha, Aph :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Aloha!
Aphrodite Macbain: Lovely dress!
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you, inspired by the Chrysler building
Eliza Madrigal: but you look much cozier :)
Eliza Madrigal: keeping snugly inside, away from freezing weather?
Aphrodite Macbain: Darn polar vortex
Aphrodite Macbain: It's just warm and rainy here...
Eliza Madrigal: Is it?
Eliza Madrigal: Even here it is rather cool, although dreary too
Aphrodite Macbain: Typical of west coast weather
Aphrodite Macbain: I've just come back from my optometrist - Things are improving
Eliza Madrigal: excellent news
Aphrodite Macbain: and and I now am in the lineup for a knee replace emnt
--BELL--1.00
Eliza Madrigal: getting all the bells and whistles :)
Aphrodite Macbain: 4-5 months!
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- bionic aph!
Eliza Madrigal grins
Aphrodite Macbain: Soon I'll be able to leap tall buildings at a single bound
Eliza Madrigal: very useful
Aphrodite Macbain: or at least walk comfortably...
Bruce Mowbray's current display-name is "Bruce".
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce!
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Bruce!
Bruce Mowbray: Hi APh! Hi Eliza!
Bleu Oleander's current display-name is "Bleu".
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Bleu!
Bleu Oleander: hi all :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hiya Agatha, Bleu :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, aggers!
Agatha Macbeth: Evening all
Aphrodite Macbain: Hey Aggers
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Bleu
Bruce Mowbray: NICE coat, Aph!
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks :)
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Did everyone see Tura's comment?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, she can
Bruce Mowbray: cannot be here today.
Agatha Macbeth: No
Eliza Madrigal: Email?
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Aphrodite Macbain: OK Ill post it here
Aphrodite Macbain: What is happiness? People try to measure it by asking people to rate their present happiness on a scale of 1 to 5, but what does that mean? Is my 5 the same as your 5? Is my 5 today the same as my 5 last year? Maybe people automatically fit the scale to their general experience, and the "hedonic setpoint" (happiness returning to the same level after a change in circumstances for better or worse) is a myth? How "happy" am I right now? I really can't connect with this scale of 1 to 5. I mean, I'm quite well off, I have the leisure to take a trip to Lithuania to go to a concert of music on Armenian folk instruments, and right now I'm sitting on the train to the airport. On the other hand, that means I'll miss today's reading session again. Socrates said that it is better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a pig satisfied. I think it's also better to be Socrates dissatisfied than Socrates satisfied. If "happiness" means anything to me, I'd describe it as the ongoing achievement of meaningful goals, like a
Aphrodite Macbain: mountaineering expedition where every peak climbed reveals new peaks yet to climb, rather than some placid state of contentment. -- Tura
Aphrodite Macbain: I'd describe it as the ongoing achievement of meaningful goals, like a mountaineering expedition where every peak climbed reveals new peaks yet to climb, rather than some placid state of contentment.
Bruce Mowbray: Beautiful statement.
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes
Bleu Oleander: hard to disagree with that!
Eliza Madrigal: Nicely constructed argument (thanks, Tura and safe travels!)
Aphrodite Macbain: I love this: Socrates said that it is better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a pig satisfied. I think it's also better to be Socrates dissatisfied than Socrates satisfied.
Bruce Mowbray: Sounds to me like Tura feels she is more than a lot of data bits.
Agatha Macbeth: She probably is
Aphrodite Macbain: I would imagine she is
Eliza Madrigal: so Socrates is the measure of his own happiness and he judges it as the right one ;-)
Aphrodite Macbain: I think that could be applied to all of us
Bruce Mowbray: How many chocolate bars can one eat before even chocolate becomes unappealing ?
Agatha Macbeth: 42
Bruce Mowbray: Yeppers.
Bruce Mowbray: That exact number.
Aphrodite Macbain: But I am aware that once I have acheived a goal or obtained somehting I REALLY needed, I want more
Aphrodite Macbain: Strivig iss good? Or is sit?
Bruce Mowbray: but not more chocolate bars. . . . there is a shift in one's "goal" once one becomes saturated.
Aphrodite Macbain: Is it.
Agatha Macbeth: It iss
Aphrodite Macbain: right Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: one could also try lots of different kinds of chocolate bars
Aphrodite Macbain: I'd settle for contentment over happiness
Bruce Mowbray ponders diversity in chocolate bars.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Milk, plain, white
Aphrodite Macbain wonders what it is about chocolate...
Bleu Oleander: its probably fair to say that we all have a different version of what happiness is
Bruce Mowbray: I suspect that I am continually requiring all sorts of stimulation -- or maybe it's just difference that I crave....
Bruce Mowbray: something new.
Bruce Mowbray: Like, today I played with my microscope.
Bruce Mowbray: and wanted to increase magnification...
Bruce Mowbray: or else changing the subject matter.....
Aphrodite Macbain: I like Harari's suggestion that happiness- long term happiness - relates to our connection with community and with conquering new challenges
Bruce Mowbray: and this kept me occupied and interested for about six hours...
Bruce Mowbray: on a very cold day, inside my bedroom.
Eliza Madrigal: nice, Bruce :)
Aphrodite Macbain: were you any happier afterwards?
Bleu Oleander: Harari: happiness depends on our expectations
Bruce Mowbray: But Harari does not tell us what "community" means...
Bruce Mowbray: I was happier, yes!
Eliza Madrigal: feeling of time well spent/enjoyed
Eliza Madrigal: rising to occasion
Bruce Mowbray: Bleu is right, but it also depends on our openness to new experiences.
Aphrodite Macbain: .all those experiences that pressour well-being buttons
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes- openness requires a bit of courage
Aphrodite Macbain: so it's a sort of loop
Bruce Mowbray: New experiences can be disruptive - as Harari says - but they can also be exhilarating.
Eliza Madrigal: I think I'm rather easily contented, but I could be a high maintenance who thinks she is low maintenance, as in When Harry Met Sally
Bleu Oleander: :)
--BELL--1.15
Bruce Mowbray makes note to pirate that movie and watch it.
Eliza Madrigal: Oh wow
Agatha Macbeth splutters
Agatha Macbeth: Arr me bucko
Bruce Mowbray: ARRRRR!
Aphrodite Macbain: I was most struck by his comment about the correlation of happiness with connection with community. It seems to be one of his key answers to our well-being.
Eliza Madrigal recommends the Mr. Rogers documentary, to feel wholesome and happy for a while
Bruce Mowbray: No problem. Leave it in.
Aphrodite Macbain: FOr long-term happiness
Bruce Mowbray makes note to find and download Mr. Rogers doc.
Aphrodite Macbain: What makes you happy?
Bruce Mowbray: I make me happy.
Aphrodite Macbain: :)
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Who else could possibly do that -- if I were determined to be unhappy?
Eliza Madrigal: I think Harari is right, regarding connection... but it also opens a whole nother can of worms
Aphrodite Macbain: oh?
Aphrodite Macbain: which can?
Agatha Macbeth: Worms can
Aphrodite Macbain: ugh
Bruce Mowbray: I dropped out of the only RL community I belonged to --- this weekend.
Eliza Madrigal: connection within the context of meaning
Eliza Madrigal: Oh Bruce, how hard
Aphrodite Macbain: say more ELiza?
Bruce Mowbray: NOOOOO!
Bruce Mowbray: Easy!
Aphrodite Macbain: It was too cold to get there, no?
Agatha Macbeth: Yes
Bruce Mowbray: That community has changed ---- or else I have changed ---- and that community no longer meets my "happiness" needs.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, it was very cold, but no matter.
Bruce Mowbray: Been part of it since 1993 (my men's group)
Agatha Macbeth: Happiness is a changeable commodity then
Aphrodite Macbain: Oh yes
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, happiness is both changeable and circular.
Bruce Mowbray: Remember Donovan?
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Agatha Macbeth: Indeed
Bruce Mowbray: "Happiness Moves in a Circular Motion"
Agatha Macbeth: Hurdy gurdy man
Aphrodite Macbain: :)
Bruce Mowbray: just a sec....
Bruce Mowbray: brb.
Agatha Macbeth: The squirrels got him
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Druth
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya druth
Bleu Oleander: hi druth
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Druth
Bruce Mowbray: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cGWTAe3M6U
druth Vlodovic: Hey guys
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, druth!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Stevie
Agatha Macbeth: And hello Steve
Bleu Oleander: hey steve
stevenaia Michinaga: waves
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, steve.
Agatha Macbeth: A rare visitor
druth Vlodovic: Hey Stevenaia
stevenaia Michinaga: saw the topic, seemed appropriate
Bruce Mowbray: Are you happy, Steve?
Aphrodite Macbain: Stevenaia - gtsy!
Aphrodite Macbain: What makes you happy and does it last?
Bruce Mowbray: "You can have everything if you let yourself be."
Aphrodite Macbain: Does he say that?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, over and over and over.
Bruce Mowbray: :)
druth Vlodovic: That would be "contentment"
Bruce Mowbray: Ahhh! Excellent point, druth!
stevenaia Michinaga: <=== always happy
Eliza Madrigal: I think if you can find what you're doing in the context of a larger meaning, whether wonder and awe, or kindness, or benefit to family/world in a practical sense, and keep in touch with that, it makes it possible to ride the inevitable tides
Bruce Mowbray nods. Tides are inevitabe.
Eliza Madrigal: but if you lose that connection, it is hard to find trust and stay open
Aphrodite Macbain: I agree Eliza?
Bruce Mowbray: inevitable*
Eliza Madrigal: so feeding things to keep sight of the connection seems important
Bruce Mowbray: Contentment implies "enough." Whereas, "happiness" might be a constant quest for more.
Aphrodite Macbain: For me happiness is short, brief; wereas contentment lasts
Bruce Mowbray: Now, can AI make me happy?
Eliza Madrigal: one of the things I liked about the Mr. Rogers doc is that his baseline was "you're likeable", "you're enough"
Eliza Madrigal: that kids needed a strong foundation of acceptance
Eliza Madrigal: not sure how AI would give that :)
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, that was one of Mr. Rogers' continuing message to children. . . . "Woin't you be my neighbor?"
stevenaia Michinaga: Happy is acceptance (of yourself and others)
Aphrodite Macbain: AI is a means to a n infinity of possible ends. Some may make me happy.
--BELL--1.30
Bruce Mowbray: And Harari says that bio-monitoring, etc., etc., etc., can find what makes us happy. . . and can bring us more of those things. . . and then we'll be happier. I do NOT buy it.
Aphrodite Macbain: wont you be my neighbour hints at the importance of society and others in one's life. Acceptance from one's community
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, it surely does, Aph.
Eliza Madrigal nods, trust and safety
Aphrodite Macbain: Why dont you buy it Bruce?
Agatha Macbeth: Too expensive?
druth Vlodovic: lol, the last 15 seconds of silence was done to the song "I want to paint it black"
Aphrodite Macbain: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Well, it's not a matter of quantities for one thing.
Eliza Madrigal: lots of things have made life more convenient, but that doesn't necessarily mean more satisfying
Bruce Mowbray: Ha ha -- (to druth).
druth Vlodovic: I think it is important to recognize that "happy" is a general term with many sub meanings
Agatha Macbeth: Hehe (to Bruce)
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: no having lots does not mean having more happiness.
Bruce Mowbray: Right!
Agatha Macbeth: It can mean the opposite
Aphrodite Macbain: But having a sense of accomplishment, or feeling one has value brings contentment
druth Vlodovic: "If money can't buy you happiness then you don't have enough of it."
druth Vlodovic: "accomplishment" is briefer but in some ways soaks into one's character more
Aphrodite Macbain: heh
Aphrodite Macbain: gimmme gimme gimme
Bruce Mowbray: Can bio-monitoring actually detect happiness? Or, for that matter, can monitoring of my monetary wealth?
Aphrodite Macbain: remembers the video "what about me?"
Aphrodite Macbain: It did for that French monk Bruce
Agatha Macbeth: St Bernard?
Bruce Mowbray: Thich Naht Hanh?
Aphrodite Macbain: We have pleasure centres in our brain that can be observed when they light up in the MRI
Aphrodite Macbain: No He was French from France- caucasian
Bruce Mowbray: Please does NOT equal happiness.
Eliza Madrigal: there is also the stereotype of the sad clown... reread the other day, the Robin Williams quote that often people who seem the happiest, always wearing smiles, are in touch with deep suffering and don't want anyone else to feel that
Aphrodite Macbain: please?
Bruce Mowbray: That's the whole chocolate bar thing again.
maggieemay Resident's current display-name is "Maggie ".
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Maggie.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Maggie!
Agatha Macbeth: G'day Mag
stevenaia Michinaga: Come site
stevenaia Michinaga: sit
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Maggie. We're discussing happiness and artificial intelligence.
Bleu Oleander: hi Maggie
druth Vlodovic: Hi Maggie
Bruce Mowbray: Our chat logs are posted online, so let us know if that's OK with you, please.
Maggie may...or may not
druth Vlodovic: I think depression and happiness go together like striving and skill
Bruce Mowbray: Please say more, druth.
druth Vlodovic: depressives either fail or work hard to overcome, so they become good at the skills of observation and compensation
Bruce Mowbray: hmmmm.
Bruce Mowbray: So, like those "tides" Eliza was talking about.....
Eliza Madrigal nods
Aphrodite Macbain: French Buddhist monk - Matthieu Ricard, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthieu_Ricard
Aphrodite Macbain: He is the person I was talking about
Agatha Macbeth: Ah
Aphrodite Macbain: He was able to meditate and become happy
druth Vlodovic: He has spent a total of 5 years in solitary meditation, largely in a remote mountain hut.[20]
druth Vlodovic: Lucky bastard
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: and I would be miserable
Bruce Mowbray ponders being "the happiest person in the world."
Aphrodite Macbain: I'd be talking to the mountain goats
Aphrodite Macbain: Baaaaa
Agatha Macbeth: Didn't any mormons visit him then?
Eliza Madrigal: many of these monks go away for a time, and find that they no longer need all the things they may have believed they needed, but then they come back :)
Aphrodite Macbain: lol probably
Aphrodite Macbain: They need people
druth Vlodovic: speaking fluent goat
Eliza Madrigal: re-entry isn't so easy for some of them, but some retain the memory of joy I think
Bruce Mowbray hums "I talk to the trees, but they don't listen to me..."
Bleu Oleander: I don't think spending 5 years in solitary meditation in a remote hut would make me happy ... maybe not matched to my expectations
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes Eliza- just having that memory would be valuable
Eliza Madrigal: it is something I'd do, if life allowed, so far it hasn't :)
Bruce Mowbray also hums "People who need people are the luckiest people in the world..."
Aphrodite Macbain: It just goes to show that each of us has their own separate needs
Eliza Madrigal nods
Bruce Mowbray: I think my typist needs trees and goats more than he needs people.
Eliza Madrigal: I need people, but I often feel I'm not really connecting
Agatha Macbeth: And squirrels
Aphrodite Macbain: Me too Eliza!
Bruce Mowbray: YES! and squirrels!
Aphrodite Macbain: Squirrels can help you find your nuts
Bruce Mowbray: hahahahahahahaha
Agatha Macbeth: 0.0
Aphrodite Macbain: :D
Bruce Mowbray dies from laughing....
Aphrodite Macbain: smirks
Agatha Macbeth dies from laughing....
Eliza Madrigal: so there is a kind of depth of personal openness I think it would be worth going toward/cultivating, which might open those doors with others, deeper listening, etc. It is just a theory though
Bruce Mowbray: Did you know that the average squirrel can retrieve 70% of the nuts it has hidden?
Aphrodite Macbain: picks Aggers and Bruce up from the floor
Agatha Macbeth: Grazie
Aphrodite Macbain: shakes them
Aphrodite Macbain: and puts them back on their pillows
Agatha Macbeth: Zzzz
Aphrodite Macbain: Deeper listening would do the whole world good
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps happiness has something to do with contrasts -- and relativity. . . .
Aphrodite Macbain: especially politicians
Agatha Macbeth: Einstein?
Aphrodite Macbain: say more Bruce?
Eliza Madrigal: don't you feel most trusting of others when you are deeply connected with openness in yourself? It is like a confidence
--BELL--1.45
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Bruce Mowbray: I knew men in a state prison doing life sentences.... for whom even mild contrasts could produce happiness.
Aphrodite Macbain: or when someone "really" hears you
Aphrodite Macbain: we need deeper connections rather than more of them
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm. I would agree with that, Aph.
Aphrodite Macbain: Ricard was meditating on compassion when his brain lit up
druth Vlodovic: "People today have many more friends, but how many of those could you stay with for a week if you lost your house?"
Eliza Madrigal: :) but not sure one can will it... can mostly cultivate the capacity in oneself?
Bruce Mowbray: "Deeper" does not necessarily mean more "intense."
Aphrodite Macbain: so thinking of others makes you happier? Like Tonglen?
Bruce Mowbray: Well, thinking of others can take your mind out of the loops of self-worry.
Eliza Madrigal nods Druth... how many could you even tell
Aphrodite Macbain: nods- we look outwards, beyond our own needs
Aphrodite Macbain: I find it's the best way for me to cure depression
Aphrodite Macbain: getting involved in the world outside myself
Eliza Madrigal: cosmos cures all
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Aphrodite Macbain: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Or painting
Aphrodite Macbain: or digging in the garden
Eliza Madrigal: that's big for me too... getting hands dirty in some way
Bruce Mowbray: Whatever "needs" you feel that you have, there are thousands of people in the world with those same needs -- and far more than those.... so bringing them to mind with Tong-len will make you less concerned for your own needs.
Aphrodite Macbain: or going on a protest march?
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: well said
Bruce Mowbray remembers all of those protest marches in Berkeley in the 1960's.
Eliza Madrigal: what did you think of the orthodox community he described?
Aphrodite Macbain: or in MOntreal :)
Eliza Madrigal: we touched on it last week a little
druth Vlodovic: to be meaningful
Bruce Mowbray: Amazing to me that Israel supports them.
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes that was interesting
Eliza Madrigal: it seems their culture respects/ascribes dignity
Bruce Mowbray: average number of children per Orthodox family is SEVEN!
Aphrodite Macbain: they worry more about the state of the world that their own worldly possessions
Aphrodite Macbain: they need litle
Aphrodite Macbain: also little
Agatha Macbeth: Probably don't have time
Aphrodite Macbain: they pray most of the time
Bruce Mowbray: I feel grateful to monks all over the world who are in regular prayer.
Bruce Mowbray: I did not realize that until I visited a few monasteries.
Aphrodite Macbain: I might get bored. A repetitive way of life would kill my energy
Bruce Mowbray: Right, Aph. I need change.
Aphrodite Macbain: I dont know how they can do so few things!
Bleu Oleander: the quest for meaning and community, not so much which community ... just one where you can find meaning ... I think that it was just one example -- Orthodox Jews that he gave
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: yes Bleu
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Aphrodite Macbain: community keeps popping up all the time.
Eliza Madrigal: so there are things to see in the example, about valuing more than earning potential
Aphrodite Macbain: But there are those like Bruce and druth who really value solitude...
Bleu Oleander: even this community, PaB, provides some meaning to many who participate
Aphrodite Macbain: I agree Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I value solitude more than I value community.
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: I wonder what we've collectively learned from PaB in terms of community... anything that could benefit the larger world?
Aphrodite Macbain: But we are all social creatures, so we usually make efforts to occasionally connect with others
Bruce Mowbray: Likewise, I would give up both power and love to have freedom.
Aphrodite Macbain: Good question Eliza
Bruce Mowbray ponders whether learning is a collective phenomenon.
Aphrodite Macbain: I think I have learned that we have more in common than we have differences
druth Vlodovic: I think people need to individually value life, this will bring the best benefit to the world
Aphrodite Macbain: Or perhaps we select the communities we want to be part of
Aphrodite Macbain: nods at druth
stevenaia Michinaga: or.. communities select us
Bruce Mowbray: Thank you, everyone. I need to run off to a meditation session now. Thanks for leading today, Aph.
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now.
Eliza Madrigal: worth of living "examined life" perhaps too
Bleu Oleander: bye Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks for coming Bruce
Agatha Macbeth: Happy scrapings Brucie
Aphrodite Macbain: Take care and happy meditating!
druth Vlodovic: lol, imaginging him running to a meditation session, welcome to the modern world
Aphrodite Macbain: heh
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: In SL I think druth
Aphrodite Macbain: It's easy to run
Aphrodite Macbain: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Except when laggy
stevenaia Michinaga: must go, thanks this was a treat,
Eliza Madrigal: bye for now
Bleu Oleander: bye steve
Agatha Macbeth: Byee x
druth Vlodovic: Bye Steve
Bleu Oleander: must go too
druth Vlodovic: etc
Bleu Oleander: take care all
Eliza Madrigal: etc. :)
Eliza Madrigal: bye Bleu, thanks for links yesterday
Bleu Oleander: til next time
Eliza Madrigal: haven't had a chance to see them yet though
Bleu Oleander: yw! Eliza
Aphrodite Macbain: Next week (Feb 7) we discuss Februaryliberty and truth!!
Eliza Madrigal: big topic :)
Eliza Madrigal: another one
Bleu Oleander: ok!
--BELL--2.00
Aphrodite Macbain: sort of!
Agatha Macbeth ponders February liberty
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
Bleu Oleander: bye
Aphrodite Macbain: how about truth?
druth Vlodovic: you only get the one month, so enjoy it
Eliza Madrigal: hears School House Rock in her head... lovely lady liberty...
Agatha Macbeth: How about it
Eliza Madrigal: :) hah
Eliza Madrigal: take care guys, bfn
Eliza Madrigal: THANKS
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Eliza
druth Vlodovic: cya
Agatha Macbeth: Au revoir
Aphrodite Macbain: Ciao bella
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