The Guardian for this meeting was Agatha Macbeth. The comments are by Agatha Macbeth.

Almadi Masala: 's current display-name is "Alma di Masala".
Almadi Masala: hi Tura
Tura Brezoianu: hi Alma
--BELL--1.00
Tura Brezoianu: hi Agatha
Agatha Macbeth: Here I am
Almadi Masala: hi Agatha
Agatha Macbeth: Better give a few mins to see if anybody else turns up
Almadi Masala: ok
Bleu Oleander: 's current display-name is "Bleu".
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Bleuji
Bleu Oleander: hiya!
Almadi Masala: hi Bleu
Tura Brezoianu: hi Bleu
Agatha Macbeth: I get the feeling this is probably going to be it then
Agatha Macbeth: Us four
Bleu Oleander: :)
Agatha Macbeth: So
Agatha Macbeth: Which bit are we on today?
Almadi Masala: I've missed the last couple of sessions
Almadi Masala: but I just read the chapter about Confucius
Agatha Macbeth: This part four I think
Tura Brezoianu: Chapter 3, Confucius, and trying hard not to try
Agatha Macbeth: Ah, right
Bleu Oleander: chapter 3
Agatha Macbeth: Wester said she can't get here sadly
Agatha Macbeth: Yes intro + 3
Agatha Macbeth: What do we think about Confucius then?
Almadi Masala: I'm not a fan of his
Tura Brezoianu: "Kids of today, gerroff my lawn!"
Almadi Masala: haha
--BELL--1.15
Almadi Masala: it seems like a top-heavy approach. "cold cognition" decides how it should be, and then imposes its will on the rest of the brain.
Tura Brezoianu: Rules and custom serve a purpose, but they are empty if one loses sight of the purpose.
Bleu Oleander: seems like culture plays an important role
Bleu Oleander: its all about social cohesion perhaps?
Agatha Macbeth: Apparently he said ‘Virtue is never solitary; it always has neighbors.’
Almadi Masala: programming ourselves to behave according to cultural rules and rituals
Agatha Macbeth: So maybe so
Agatha Macbeth: If we progam ourselves we just become robots
Almadi Masala: social norms and rules are necessary for getting along together, but it is also necessary to be able to know when to step outside those norms in a particular situation
Agatha Macbeth: That certainly makes sense
Bleu Oleander: yes very context driven
Bleu Oleander: but also fluid
Bleu Oleander: changing all the time
Almadi Masala: Confucius loved the "ancients", but ancient wisdom might not always be most appropriate in changing times
Bleu Oleander: there are risks in stepping outside cultural norms, sometimes good, sometimes not so good
Bleu Oleander: yes
Tura Brezoianu: The chapter also quotes him on being flexible when needed, as when receiving the blind musician.
Bleu Oleander: different context
Agatha Macbeth: I just wonder how his ideas relate to the 21st century
Almadi Masala: adapting rules to apply them to an new context is always a creative act
Agatha Macbeth: If they do
Agatha Macbeth: What happened with the musician then Tu?
Tura Brezoianu: Confucius received a blind musician, and spoke to him saying, here is your seat, here it your tea, so-and-so are present, and so forth.
Agatha Macbeth: Oh
Tura Brezoianu: Musicians were of a rather modest social standing, though.
Agatha Macbeth: That was nice of him
Tura Brezoianu: He asked afterwards, "is this the correct way to receive a mucisian?"
Tura Brezoianu: And he replied, "Yes, this is indeed the right way."
Tura Brezoianu: So he put aside the normal ritual to better serve the circumstances of the moment.
Agatha Macbeth: Right
Agatha Macbeth: So he bent the rules to adapt to the situation
--BELL--1.30
Agatha Macbeth: Horses for courses and all that
Bleu Oleander: needs to be with the right attitude tho, not an empty action ... seems he didn't like "posuers"
Agatha Macbeth: Who does?
Bleu Oleander: C
Bleu Oleander: didn't like fakers
Bleu Oleander: so could use FB as a 21st C example
Agatha Macbeth: Yes
Bleu Oleander: what would C say about FB?
Agatha Macbeth: 'Signifying nothing'
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bleu Oleander: a bunch of techno posuers!
Agatha Macbeth: Techno techno techno
Agatha Macbeth: When did he live by the way?
Bleu Oleander: a long time ago
Agatha Macbeth: Yeh right
Agatha Macbeth: Just wondered if it was the same time as Lao Tzu
Bleu Oleander: just before him I think
Bleu Oleander: maybe overlapped a bit?
Agatha Macbeth: Oh wow 551–479 BC
Agatha Macbeth: So not long after Buddha then
Tura Brezoianu: "A semi-legendary figure, Laozi was usually portrayed as a 6th-century BC contemporary of Confucius, but some modern historians consider him to have lived during the Warring States period of the 4th century BC."
Tura Brezoianu: (Wikipedia)
Agatha Macbeth: Ahh
Agatha Macbeth: Interesting
Tura Brezoianu: So it seems that afterwards, that's how Lao Tzu was imagined.
Bleu Oleander: part of the axial age
Agatha Macbeth: And Zarathustra and Pythagoras were not long before
Bleu Oleander: an interesting book: Karen Armstrong's "the great transformation"
Agatha Macbeth: Oh I know her
Agatha Macbeth: The ex nun
Bleu Oleander: yes
Bleu Oleander: my favorite of her books
Agatha Macbeth: Wow she's still going
Bleu Oleander: indeed
Agatha Macbeth: I remember her TV series about 30 years ago
Agatha Macbeth: I wonder why so many great thinkers were around at that time
Agatha Macbeth: Plato too
Agatha Macbeth: So far apart
Agatha Macbeth: Zeitgeist maybe
Bleu Oleander: something in the zeitgeist
Bleu Oleander: ha!
Agatha Macbeth: HA
Agatha Macbeth: Snap
Tura Brezoianu: Julian Jaynes would say that that's when people were first really conscious, in the way that we are today.
Agatha Macbeth: Were they unconscious before? :P
Tura Brezoianu: That was his thesis. People weren't fully aware of themselves, they experienced ther inner monologues as the gods talking to them. Or something like that. He's generally considered something of a crackpot though.
Bleu Oleander: culture has changed but human consciousness goes farther back I think
Agatha Macbeth: Was it like Gurdjieff's 'waking sleep' I wonder
Bleu Oleander: ie Gilgamesh
Agatha Macbeth: Oh GIl yes
Bleu Oleander: our ideas of "gods" have changed a lot over the years
Tura Brezoianu: Maybe the invention of writing uplifted everyone to a higher state?
Agatha Macbeth: I always thought of the Egyptians as pretty conscious
Bleu Oleander: yes
Tura Brezoianu: It meant you could see thought outside of yourself.
Almadi Masala: or shifted them to a different state, at least
Agatha Macbeth: But why then is what I'm thinking
Agatha Macbeth: Curious
Bleu Oleander: well, people started living in bigger city states ... populations increased ... need to figure out how to live together perhaps?
Agatha Macbeth: Could be
Agatha Macbeth: Back to the social thing again
--BELL--1.45
Bleu Oleander: yep
Bleu Oleander: how can we all get along?
Agatha Macbeth: Or not
Bleu Oleander: seems we're still struggling with that question
Agatha Macbeth: Thing is in those days every time you built a city someone else always seemed to come along and knock it down
Tura Brezoianu: "Civilisation" can be read as meaning "living in cities" -- how to live among large numbers of people that you don't know and not have the whole thing fall apart immediately
Almadi Masala: that was the ancient version of urban renewal, I guess
Agatha Macbeth: :P
Agatha Macbeth: Or something
Tura Brezoianu: If you can't live together, you get conquered by people who can live together better.
Bleu Oleander: you can look at bonobos and chimps ... bonobos found a better way :)
Agatha Macbeth: To do...what?
Bleu Oleander: get along
Agatha Macbeth: Oh
Bleu Oleander: matriachal
Agatha Macbeth: Ah
Bleu Oleander: chimps are much more violent ... didn't get the memo ha!
Agatha Macbeth thinks of 2001
Bleu Oleander: humans have a bit of both
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe it was that monolith
Bleu Oleander: :)
Agatha Macbeth: They touch it and start clubbing each other to death
Agatha Macbeth: Which makes you wonder why something created by a more advanced civilisation didn't make them behave more enlightened
Agatha Macbeth: Rather than the opposite
Bleu Oleander: franz de waal has written some good books on this
Agatha Macbeth: Oh dunno him
Agatha Macbeth: I'll look him up
Tura Brezoianu: The aliens who dropped the monolith only cared about humanity ascending to the stars, all the suffering on the way it didn't matter to them.
Agatha Macbeth grins
Agatha Macbeth: Allegro non troppo
Bleu Oleander: https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/art...bout_ourselves
Almadi Masala: different civilizations may have different ideas of what is enlightened behavior. for example, compare Klingon and Vulcan culture ;)
Bleu Oleander: he has a new book too on animal emotions
Agatha Macbeth: Riiight
Agatha Macbeth: Yes the Vulcans were peaceful and the Klingons just wanted to kill everything
Bleu Oleander: bonobos and chimps :)
Agatha Macbeth: Bonobo Vulcans
Agatha Macbeth: Live long and eat bananas
Almadi Masala: LOL
Bleu Oleander: must skidaddle ... next week ch 4?
Agatha Macbeth: OK
Agatha Macbeth: Thanks Bleuji
Agatha Macbeth: Love to doggie
Almadi Masala: bye Bleu
Tura Brezoianu: I seem to recall the Vulcans more or less turn into Klingons to have sex :)
Bleu Oleander: take care and remember guardian meeting sunday at 1pm HERE
Tura Brezoianu: bye Bleu
Bleu Oleander: bye bye
Agatha Macbeth: OK
Agatha Macbeth: Bye the noo
Agatha Macbeth: Yes old Spock getting all horny
Agatha Macbeth: And his mother in law kept calling him Spork
Agatha Macbeth: I remember that one
Agatha Macbeth: In the end his fiancée wins because she's more logical :p
Agatha Macbeth: Poor old Spock
Agatha Macbeth: How does Confucious relate to trying by not trying then?
Almadi Masala: you have to keep trying until it becomes so automatic that you are not trying anymore
Agatha Macbeth: I see
Tura Brezoianu: Confucius is the trying hard to not try guy. Or maybe you try really hard until you don't need to try.
Almadi Masala: but it only works if you really want it to
Agatha Macbeth: Natch
Agatha Macbeth: The Chinese have a whole other mentality to us
--BELL--2.00
Agatha Macbeth: Anyway
Agatha Macbeth: 2AM and all is well
Tura Brezoianu: I may not be here next Thursday.
Agatha Macbeth: OK
Tura Brezoianu: Away from home, hotel wifi, etc
Agatha Macbeth: Hopefully Wester will be back
Almadi Masala: I'll try to be here, no promises
Agatha Macbeth: You remind me of Wol with all the travelling you do
Almadi Masala: thank you Agatha and Tura
Agatha Macbeth: Thanks Al TC